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Gerry Clinchy
08-24-2013, 08:30 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/21/North-Dakota-s-New-Energy-Boom-Natural-Gas
I really didn't have any idea just how large this had grown ... in such a short time.

I can remember a thread on this forum from a couple of years ago discussing the Bakken oil, and there was at least some skepticism that the technology existed to extract this oil cost effectively. Amazing what has happened in just a very few years.

The article mentions that the state of ND has a $1.6 billion budget surplus, and they can't build infrastructure fast enough ... even though they have the $ to do so.

mngundog
08-24-2013, 09:33 PM
They produced more oil than Alaska last year.

Henry V
08-25-2013, 12:37 PM
Yes, and they are flaring off $3.6 million of natural gas a day. Fttttttt... gone. The market-based system is working great. It is the biggest boom ever, and has all the good and bad associated with a boom.

Search "ND natural gas waste" for the facts and opinions.

Marvin S
08-25-2013, 08:34 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/21/North-Dakota-s-New-Energy-Boom-Natural-Gas
I really didn't have any idea just how large this had grown ... in such a short time.

I can remember a thread on this forum from a couple of years ago discussing the Bakken oil, and there was at least some skepticism that the technology existed to extract this oil cost effectively. Amazing what has happened in just a very few years.

The article mentions that the state of ND has a $1.6 billion budget surplus, and they can't build infrastructure fast enough ... even though they have the $ to do so.

The Williston Basin was good to their initial producers, shallow deposits, reasonably priced labor. Fracking changed that, they have always known the carbons were there. My 1st oil investment was Dallea Petroleum, a Williston based producer. A 1 employee company, they bought poor producing wells, with low overhead they hoped to turn a profit. 5 years later it had not moved, there was no market for the stock, but was able to sell for a 50% haircut. Made up for it when buying DNR, a company with the same type of operation except for the injection of CO2 to create secondary & tertiary recovery.

MDU is very active in the Bakken, with plans to build a 20K BPD diesel refinery & a major truck stop along I-94.


Yes, and they are flaring off $3.6 million of natural gas a day. Fttttttt... gone. .

So Henry, you've made the criticism, what would your solution be?

Henry V
08-25-2013, 08:57 PM
The Williston Basin was good to their initial producers, shallow deposits, reasonably priced labor. Fracking changed that, they have always known the carbons were there. My 1st oil investment was Dallea Petroleum, a Williston based producer. A 1 employee company, they bought poor producing wells, with low overhead they hoped to turn a profit. 5 years later it had not moved, there was no market for the stock, but was able to sell for a 50% haircut. Made up for it when buying DNR, a company with the same type of operation except for the injection of CO2 to create secondary & tertiary recovery.

MDU is very active in the Bakken, with plans to build a 20K BPD diesel refinery & a major truck stop along I-94.



So Henry, you've made the criticism, what would your solution be?

Just stating facts Marvin. $3.4 million a day. Gone. Maybe they should have invested in capturing it, years ago. They are just getting around to it now. Perhaps some sort of permit condition early on that limited the amount of natural gas that was let go. It is amazing what industry can do when required to do it and still make huge profits. Water standards are a great example.

Marvin S
08-26-2013, 09:47 PM
Just stating facts Marvin. $3.4 million a day. Gone. Maybe they should have invested in capturing it, years ago. They are just getting around to it now. Perhaps some sort of permit condition early on that limited the amount of natural gas that was let go. It is amazing what industry can do when required to do it and still make huge profits. Water standards are a great example.

I thought that someone of your intellect would have a solution along with your criticism - the problem has existed since they started drilling at Titusville.


As for water, we are all aware of what clean water does & believe we benefit from same. But, & this may be beyond your level, We have reached the point in many cases that over regulation is creating more problems than it solves. The days of seeing a fin moving on a fish 30 feet below the surface are becoming rarer. There is only one way to solve that, less people.

mally
08-27-2013, 06:06 AM
Believe one of MDU subsidiaries has also announced natural gas line investment heading east out of the field.

Also CHS (farmers coop) announced $1.2B fertilizer plant in eastern ND right along I-94. Natural gas conversion process

Bought MDU last summer at $22, trades today $28, div stock, not great fundamentals but likely to improve...

Henry V
08-27-2013, 08:55 AM
I thought that someone of your intellect would have a solution along with your criticism - the problem has existed since they started drilling at Titusville.


As for water, we are all aware of what clean water does & believe we benefit from same. But, & this may be beyond your level, We have reached the point in many cases that over regulation is creating more problems than it solves. The days of seeing a fin moving on a fish 30 feet below the surface are becoming rarer. There is only one way to solve that, less people.

Yes, Marvin as I understand it this has been a problem for a long time. I do not have the solution but suggested a regulatory approach could work since the market has allowed such waste to occur for a very long time.. I just think that 100 years from now folks are going to look back and say "what fools, wasting a precious non-renewable energy source."

I am sure there are instances of over-regulation, but the rhetoric outpaces reality in my experience. I can also point to many instnaces where under-regulation and a lack of enforcement has created much larger problems that have huge costs to society. I would bet we agree on your last point.

swampcollielover
08-27-2013, 09:47 AM
Yes, Marvin as I understand it this has been a problem for a long time. I do not have the solution but suggested a regulatory approach could work since the market has allowed such waste to occur for a very long time.. I just think that 100 years from now folks are going to look back and say "what fools, wasting a precious non-renewable energy source."

I am sure there are instances of over-regulation, but the rhetoric outpaces reality in my experience. I can also point to many instnaces where under-regulation and a lack of enforcement has created much larger problems that have huge costs to society. I would bet we agree on your last point.

Government regulation is never the solution..just look at Obama and the mess he has made....look to the free market! When is becomes profitable to capture and sale this natural gas, they will! The existing regulations make capturing this gas to expensive, primarily do to the EPA requirements....nothing new here!

caryalsobrook
08-27-2013, 10:09 AM
Yes, Marvin as I understand it this has been a problem for a long time. I do not have the solution but suggested a regulatory approach could work since the market has allowed such waste to occur for a very long time.. I just think that 100 years from now folks are going to look back and say "what fools, wasting a precious non-renewable energy source."

I am sure there are instances of over-regulation, but the rhetoric outpaces reality in my experience. I can also point to many instnaces where under-regulation and a lack of enforcement has created much larger problems that have huge costs to society. I would bet we agree on your last point.

Do you really believe that there is waste of 3 million+ per day of natural gas just because the company is a bunch of fools. Don't you realize that if it were profitable to capture the gas that the company would not do it? Don't you realize that the rules and regulations are what makes it unprofitable and as a result, the gas is not captured? I have come to realize that there are two groups that support such regulation. One group is those that write the regulations. Their primary objective is to write more and more regulations because would they would not have a job if it were deterimned that no new regulations should be written? The second group are those that DO NOT have the wherewithall to compete in a free market place. Their attitude reminds me of something my father used to say when women were not in the market place in significant numbers. He used to say "Behind every successful man is a woman telling everything he was doing was wrong". Now we have a growing group of siciety standing behind every succesful company spouting offeverything the company is doing wrong. The only problem is THEY CAN'T DO IT BETTER! If they could THEY would own the companies that do the work.

Rules and regulataion have two main results. They provide jobs for thase that write them and protects those that could not compete in a free market place. Other than that, they do very little. There are so many examples that I will not mention any of them but if you dissagee, I can do so.

Marvin S
08-27-2013, 11:54 AM
I am sure there are instances of over-regulation, but the rhetoric outpaces reality in my experience. I can also point to many instnaces where under-regulation and a lack of enforcement has created much larger problems that have huge costs to society. I would bet we agree on your last point.

My experiences & those of my sons tell me the over regulation is real. Generally practiced by someone placed in that position who does not have a clue about what they are supposed to be accomplishing. I have a son in the dairy business, makes value added products from the animals that he owns. He has a degree in Dairy Manufacturing & several years of experience with over a million invested in his operation. He has a 2 streams flowing through his property, of which he has been a good steward.

I have sold his products at some Farmers Markets - Between the crap he puts up with from those who come to his farm, uninvited & without prior notice, & the health Nazi's that are employed by the various health departments, we do not have to rely on rhetoric, we have seen incompetence 1st hand. You can rest assured that they quickly realized I was not someone to trifle with, I'll give them credit for that :).

But those are the folks you have allied yourself with, does that make you wonder just a little bit? I believe the quote below to be more than realistic, can our country survive when the non producers believe they have a right to dictate to the producers.


Do you really believe that there is waste of 3 million+ per day of natural gas just because the company is a bunch of fools. Don't you realize that if it were profitable to capture the gas that the company would not do it? Don't you realize that the rules and regulations are what makes it unprofitable and as a result, the gas is not captured? I have come to realize that there are two groups that support such regulation. One group is those that write the regulations. Their primary objective is to write more and more regulations because would they would not have a job if it were deterimned that no new regulations should be written? The second group are those that DO NOT have the wherewithall to compete in a free market place. Their attitude reminds me of something my father used to say when women were not in the market place in significant numbers. He used to say "Behind every successful man is a woman telling everything he was doing was wrong". Now we have a growing group of siciety standing behind every succesful company spouting offeverything the company is doing wrong. The only problem is THEY CAN'T DO IT BETTER! If they could THEY would own the companies that do the work.

Rules and regulataion have two main results. They provide jobs for thase that write them and protects those that could not compete in a free market place. Other than that, they do very little. There are so many examples that I will not mention any of them but if you dissagee, I can do so.

How true!!!!!

Marvin S
08-27-2013, 12:13 PM
Believe one of MDU subsidiaries has also announced natural gas line investment heading east out of the field.

Also CHS (farmers coop) announced $1.2B fertilizer plant in eastern ND right along I-94. Natural gas conversion process

Bought MDU last summer at $22, trades today $28, div stock, not great fundamentals but likely to improve...

We've owned MDU for some time & added to that position in '09. The stock has treated us well with a nice dividend (7% on original purchase prices) & selling close to 3 times the entry price. There's not much to not like :cool:. They are a conservatively managed company, better that than a flameout. They are a utility, & I expect a split someday into 2 companies or more.

caryalsobrook
08-27-2013, 01:39 PM
My experiences & those of my sons tell me the over regulation is real. Generally practiced by someone placed in that position who does not have a clue about what they are supposed to be accomplishing. I have a son in the dairy business, makes value added products from the animals that he owns. He has a degree in Dairy Manufacturing & several years of experience with over a million invested in his operation. He has a 2 streams flowing through his property, of which he has been a good steward.

I have sold his products at some Farmers Markets - Between the crap he puts up with from those who come to his farm, uninvited & without prior notice, & the health Nazi's that are employed by the various health departments, we do not have to rely on rhetoric, we have seen incompetence 1st hand. You can rest assured that they quickly realized I was not someone to trifle with, I'll give them credit for that :).

But those are the folks you have allied yourself with, does that make you wonder just a little bit? I believe the quote below to be more than realistic, can our country survive when the non producers believe they have a right to dictate to the producers.



How true!!!!!Marvin, we may have changed the subject of the thread some but sometimes it is nice to be able to vent our consterntion with dealing with the regulators. I'm sure I am not as smart as you when it comes to dealing with the regulators and besides, I don't want the agravation. So I leave it to my farmer who has a better chance of getting things done. His method in simple terms is bribary. He just carries all of them sweet corn and other perks and you would not believe how well things go when we need something done. Case in point, we had put in a soil conservation with part my money and part the tax payers' money. Three pipes involved with one only a small 6 in pvc pipe as REQUIRED by their design. The pipe blew out the first year so I called the regulators to see how the repair was to be handled. After looking at it, he immediately declared it as ordinary maintenance which I was totally responsible. Realizing my mistake, I turned it over to my farmer and left. Later he called me and said that he had a project that need to be done that I was unaware and had reached an agreement with the regulators that if I chose to do it that the cost of repairing the structure that I had asked about could be added to the new structure. Needless I told him to go ahead and do it. So he managed to get cost share for the repair and also another project which need to be done and BOTH on cost share. What a way to live. Do I have a choice, no. If other farmers get cost share then I could not compete unless I do it too. The good part is I have a farmer who knows how to bribe them and kiss up to them. I can imagine what large coorporations are able to do.

Maybe Henry V has a business and can give us glowing reports of instances where he had dealt with the regulators and come away HAPPY that he had to deal with them.:rolleyes: