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View Full Version : Detroit Free press replies to Rush Limbaugh's distortions.



zeus3925
09-08-2013, 11:16 AM
Rush Limbaugh likes to use Detroit to flog Democrats. But, Limbaugh, as usual, is pretty reckless with the truth.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130908/NEWS01/309080074/Rush-Limbaugh-truth-about-detroit-Orr-bankruptcy-Chafets-Devil-s-Night

M&K's Retrievers
09-08-2013, 11:43 AM
Truth: Detroit is the most bankrupt major city in the country primarily because of it's union policies.

Raymond Little
09-08-2013, 12:07 PM
Truth: Detroit is the most bankrupt major city in the country primarily because of it's union policies.

I disagree, Detroit is a shithole because it has been run by black plantation masters for 40+ years. C Young divided the city with racial politics and cronyism. Please name one nation/city in the world which is dominated by blacks that has accomplished anything good?

swampcollielover
09-08-2013, 04:38 PM
Rush Limbaugh likes to use Detroit to flog Democrats. But, Limbaugh, as usual, is pretty reckless with the truth.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130908/NEWS01/309080074/Rush-Limbaugh-truth-about-detroit-Orr-bankruptcy-Chafets-Devil-s-Night[/QUOTERush hasalways used exaggeration and expressions of the absurd to emphasize hispoints. People that listen to Rush,understand when he is doing this and enjoy the humor. Those that do not listen to him “Don’t getit” and frequently use these statements to try and discredit Rush. Which only shows us how uninformed theyreally are!
(http://www.freep.com/article/20130908/NEWS01/309080074/Rush-Limbaugh-truth-about-detroit-Orr-bankruptcy-Chafets-Devil-s-Night[/QUOTE)
[QUOTE=M&K's Retrievers;1144061]Truth: Detroit is the most bankrupt major city in the country primarily because of it's union policies.


I disagree, Detroit is a shithole because it has been run by black plantation masters for 40+ years. C Young divided the city with racial politics and cronyism. Please name one nation/city in the world which is dominated by blacks that has accomplished anything good?

I think you are both right, the unions sucked the city dry coupled with liberal leadership at the local levels that did nothing but kill the city and all in it! It was not the color of their skin that killed the city, it was the fallacy of their belief in Liberalism! It is important to distinguish the difference.

Henlee
09-08-2013, 08:16 PM
I disagree, Detroit is a shithole because it has been run by black plantation masters for 40+ years. C Young divided the city with racial politics and cronyism. Please name one nation/city in the world which is dominated by blacks that has accomplished anything good?

Don't hold back, tell me what you really think.

Raymond Little
09-08-2013, 08:29 PM
I disagree, Detroit is a shithole because it has been run by black plantation masters for 40+ years. C Young divided the city with racial politics and cronyism. Please name one nation/city in the world which is dominated by blacks that has accomplished anything good?

Don't hold back, tell me what you really think.


Care to start the list off?

Backwater
09-08-2013, 08:35 PM
The way to solve all this is simple, divide the country in half, those unions, the Democrats, the welfare people, the liberals on the east coast, the conservatives constitutionalists on the west. Each side will get nothing from the other side. No taxes, no help, nothing, in 5 years we will see who prospers and who is bankrupt! Simple.

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 08:30 AM
Truth: Detroit is the most bankrupt major city in the country primarily because of it's union policies.

While Detroit is the headquarters for the UAW and the Teamsters, their involvement in the city's collapse was minor at best.

Detroit collapsed for a number of reasons including:
1. It was a two industry town, cars and movie productions, both of which were intertwined. Foreign competition hit the city hard at its most vulnerable moment.

2.Its principal industry has undergone some dynamic changes since World War II, namely automation and engineering which has significantly reduced the number of workers needed per unit.

3. Virulent racism.

4. Mechanization of southern agriculture.

5. Drugs and Crime.

6.Ineffectual, obtuse, and corrupt government by Republicans and Democrats alike. The big collapse happened under Gov. George Romney, a Republican. He and his Republican successor, Gov. William Milliken, shoveled boat loads of cash into Detroit without accountability in an attempt to shore the city up. Coleman Young had an abrasive, difficult manner and he was not the mayor the city needed to rebound after the 1967 riots.

7. Breakdown of infrastructure.

8. Unscrupulous practices by realtors.

M&K's Retrievers
09-09-2013, 08:41 AM
While Detroit is the headquarters for the UAW and the teamsters, their involvement in the city's collapse was minor at best.

Detroit collapsed for a number of reasons including:
1. It was a two industry town, cars and movie productions,both of which were intertwined.

2.Its principal industry has undergone some dynamic changes since World War II, namely automation and engineering which has significantly reduced the number of workers needed per unit.

3. Racism

4. Mechanization of southern agriculture.

5. Drugs and Crime.

6.Ineffectual, obtuse, and corrupt government by Republicans and Democrats alike. The big collapse happened under Gov. George Romney and Mayor Mariani, both Republicans.

If a cities major employer goes down the tubes, the cities woes will follow.

swampcollielover
09-09-2013, 09:05 AM
If a cities major employer goes down the tubes, the cities woes will follow.

I smell a "Union" member! Both the Gov and Mayor were dealing with Democratic minorities in the governmental organizations that they ran! All of the things you mentioned contributed to the failures n Detroit. But with the size of the Auto Industries and the number of Union employees that lived in and near to Detroit, none of the members or union leaders offered any monitory help to the city that was in trouble....neither did the leaders at GM or any of the other automakers, even after the President filled their retirement funds with Federal Tax Payers money (from guys like me). They all sit on their hands and let the city fail! They all own it.....! Unions are one for all and all for one.....as long as you are in the Union....to heck with your neighbors.

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 09:11 AM
If a cities major employer goes down the tubes, the cities woes will follow.

Every city needs a reason to be there. When that goes away the town fails. The west is laoded with examples: Virginia City, Montana; Tincup, Colorado; Silver City, Idaho; Bodie, California, etc.

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 09:45 AM
I smell a "Union" member! Both the Gov and Mayor were dealing with Democratic minorities in the governmental organizations that they ran! All of the things you mentioned contributed to the failures n Detroit. But with the size of the Auto Industries and the number of Union employees that lived in and near to Detroit, none of the members or union leaders offered any monitory help to the city that was in trouble....neither did the leaders at GM or any of the other automakers, even after the President filled their retirement funds with Federal Tax Payers money (from guys like me). They all sit on their hands and let the city fail! They all own it.....! Unions are one for all and all for one.....as long as you are in the Union....to heck with your neighbors.

I am no longer a union member but I am still proud of my involvement in the movement. At least I am nobody's damn slave.

Government workers as a whole make salaries significantly lower than their counterparts in private industry. There has to be something in place to enable governments to recruit competent workers competitively with private companies. The pensions are an incentive to employee recruitment. Most government pensions are on a matching basis. In my case, about 75% was covered by my employer, the rest was a mandatory deduction from my paycheck. The payout is 1.5% of the average of highest five years' salary per year served. No golden parachute there. The Michigan Constitution, mainly authored by George Romney (Mitt's dad), expressly protects public pension funds.

The UAW was a competing union to the one I was once associated with. They were pretty aggressive in going after our membership with some success. That being said, the UAW is among the most socially responsible unions. It is engaged in numerous projects to improve civic life not only for its members but for the community as well. It is "not the heck with your neighbors". No union funds are so great that they could ever make much of a difference in the morass that is Detroit.

Gerry Clinchy
09-09-2013, 10:32 AM
If a cities major employer goes down the tubes, the cities woes will follow.
Then, there is Bethlehem, PA, once the home of now defunct Bethlehem Steel. At its peak, "The Steel" employed the vast majority of workers in the Lehigh Valley.

Today the economy is more diverse: Air Products (mfr of specialty gasses); many hospital networks; several 4-year colleges; major distribution centers due to Interstate access; US headquarters for Olympus (moved from Long Island), to name a few. The jobs don't provide the wages (comparably) to a heavy industry like "The Steel", but wages that support a "middle class". Former Steel property now houses a casino complex that competes well with Atlantic City casinos. This tri-city area also lost another major employer ... Western Electric, which became AT&T, and then it's spinoff, Lucent Technologies ... which ultimately went down the tubes as well.

Today, Bethlehem is a thriving, growing city. Not perfect, surely nothing like the demise of the economy in Detroit. Since Bethlehem always was a smaller city than Detroit, you might call it a microcosm of "what might have been" in Detroit under different management.

The neighboring cities of Allentown and Easton did not fare as well, but both are improving economically over time. Allentown was the largest of the three cities, and is suffering from problems with city employee pensions and retiree health benefits.

Dan Storts
09-09-2013, 11:23 AM
Every city needs a reason to be there. When that goes away the town fails. The west is laoded with examples: Virginia City, Montana; Tincup, Colorado; Silver City, Idaho; Bodie, California, etc.

How much in federal/state taxpayer dollars was used to save these cities?

“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him had better
take a closer look at the American Indian.” - Henry Ford

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 12:24 PM
How much in federal/state taxpayer dollars was used to save these cities?

“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him had better
take a closer look at the American Indian.” - Henry Ford

Maybe Bodie had some as it was preserved by the State of California and it is used frequently as a movie prop. Virginia City is now a state park.

mngundog
09-09-2013, 01:17 PM
How much in federal/state taxpayer dollars was used to save these cities?

“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him had better
take a closer look at the American Indian.” - Henry Ford
Is that the same Henry Ford that hired thugs to beat union organizers with baseball bats and had a team if investigators researching his employees personnel lives? Seems a little ironic.

HuntClub
09-09-2013, 02:01 PM
Is that the same Henry Ford that hired thugs to beat union organizers with baseball bats and had a team if investigators researching his employees personnel lives? Seems a little ironic.

What's wrong with battling socialism and communism?

swampcollielover
09-09-2013, 02:11 PM
I am no longer a union member but I am still proud of my involvement in the movement. At least I am nobody's damn slave.

Government workers as a whole make salaries significantly lower than their counterparts in private industry. There has to be something in place to enable governments to recruit competent workers competitively with private companies. The pensions are an incentive to employee recruitment. Most government pensions are on a matching basis. In my case, about 75% was covered by my employer, the rest was a mandatory deduction from my paycheck. The payout is 1.5% of the average of highest five years' salary per year served. No golden parachute there. The Michigan Constitution, mainly authored by George Romney (Mitt's dad), expressly protects public pension funds.

The UAW was a competing union to the one I was once associated with. They were pretty aggressive in going after our membership with some success. That being said, the UAW is among the most socially responsible unions. It is engaged in numerous projects to improve civic life not only for its members but for the community as well. It is "not the heck with your neighbors". No union funds are so great that they could ever make much of a difference in the morass that is Detroit.

I worked in manufacturing for Fortune 500 and a Global 50 company over the last 30 years. over 20 years ago American and most large foreign companies stopped offering "Pensions". They all went to 401K which they typically matched 50 - 100% of the first 6% you saved. This was further limited by Government where if you made a certain amount you were limited as to how much you could put into your 401K. Unlike most unions Pensions are a thing of the past, as companies cannot support the costs associated with the cost. Additionally, our medical was never more than 50% covered by these companies. The point of all this it to contrast the "norms in America" compared to what you noted above. The unions continue to kill the companies they work for by asking for benefits that are outside of the 'normal' range. as far as salary levels, if you take the military salaries out of the Government payroll calculations, you will see that union workers overall make more than non union counterparts. Especially if you compare job requirements and pay grades.....they are grossly overpaid compared to the norms in the country....why do you think governments, county, city, state, and federal are going broke?

mngundog
09-09-2013, 02:17 PM
What's wrong with battling socialism and communism?

So Ford was a socialist and a communist? Hadn't heard that one.

HuntClub
09-09-2013, 02:24 PM
So Ford was a socialist and a communist? Hadn't heard that one.

Ummm, I think you got that backwards. I know you've heard that one.

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 04:03 PM
Ummm, I think you got that backwards. I know you've heard that one.

Ford was certainly an interesting character. He did set up plants in Soviet Union plants in the Soviet Union in 1929 at the behest of Joe Stalin. That plant continues to manufacture under the GAZ badge. So much for his distrust of communism.

Ford had a belief in welfare capitalism. He believed if he paid the workers well they would buy his product. He resisted unions not because they represented socialism but they were not part of what he believed was best for the workers. When he did sign a union contract in 1941 ( after his wife, Clara, threatened to divorce him if he didn't sign the contract), his terms were the most generous at the time. his dark side was the use of Harry Bennet thugs to intimidate, spy on and control his workers.

Dan Storts
09-09-2013, 04:08 PM
George Romney must have been pretty incompetent for his policies to take almost 50 years to make Detroit fail. We should be blaming our countries current problems on the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. Oh Johnson did get Medicare passed and all the extras which came along. Even (D) John Dingell's, from Michigan, prize child the supplemental drug program. He had been trying to pass it since the early 70's and finally in 2004 the Rino's and Bush threw him the bone.

Now you can always find a school board member, from the opposite party, to try and blame the collapse of a city or town. However, the reality is the definition of insanity. (Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.) This is someone's else definition.

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 04:14 PM
I worked in manufacturing for Fortune 500 and a Global 50 company over the last 30 years. over 20 years ago American and most large foreign companies stopped offering "Pensions". They all went to 401K which they typically matched 50 - 100% of the first 6% you saved. This was further limited by Government where if you made a certain amount you were limited as to how much you could put into your 401K. Unlike most unions Pensions are a thing of the past, as companies cannot support the costs associated with the cost. Additionally, our medical was never more than 50% covered by these companies. The point of all this it to contrast the "norms in America" compared to what you noted above. The unions continue to kill the companies they work for by asking for benefits that are outside of the 'normal' range. as far as salary levels, if you take the military salaries out of the Government payroll calculations, you will see that union workers overall make more than non union counterparts. Especially if you compare job requirements and pay grades.....they are grossly overpaid compared to the norms in the country....why do you think governments, county, city, state, and federal are going broke?

I don't know how things go in your part of the country, but I can tell you that we did research on the local wage scales before we went into negotiations. Public employees were always significantly less-- usually 20% less. We never were able to reach parity with the private sector. But, we could on occasion narrow the gap. We were able to recruit some experienced personnel from other employers as a result. We also did research on the pot available for compensation. Often you would here the employer's rep complaining how broke they were when in fact they were sitting on a megastash.

M&K's Retrievers
09-09-2013, 04:22 PM
I smell a "Union" member! Both the Gov and Mayor were dealing with Democratic minorities in the governmental organizations that they ran! All of the things you mentioned contributed to the failures n Detroit. But with the size of the Auto Industries and the number of Union employees that lived in and near to Detroit, none of the members or union leaders offered any monitory help to the city that was in trouble....neither did the leaders at GM or any of the other automakers, even after the President filled their retirement funds with Federal Tax Payers money (from guys like me). They all sit on their hands and let the city fail! They all own it.....! Unions are one for all and all for one.....as long as you are in the Union....to heck with your neighbors.

Not hardly. It's the union's greed which almost killed an industry.

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 04:46 PM
George Romney must have been pretty incompetent for his policies to take almost 50 years to make Detroit fail. We should be blaming our countries current problems on the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. Oh Johnson did get Medicare passed and all the extras which came along. Even (D) John Dingell's, from Michigan, prize child the supplemental drug program. He had been trying to pass it since the early 70's and finally in 2004 the Rino's and Bush threw him the bone.

Now you can always find a school board member, from the opposite party, to try and blame the collapse of a city or town. However, the reality is the definition of insanity. (Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.) This is someone's else definition.

I entered a counter argument to Limbaugh's unsupported assertion. But if you'll note in my comments the blame lies on both sides of the political fence. The collapse happened under Republican watch and it was perpetuated by subsequent administrations of the various party regimes. That collapse didn't just happen, but has been an ongoing train wreck for the half century.

Dan Storts
09-09-2013, 08:11 PM
I entered a counter argument to Limbaugh's unsupported assertion. But if you'll note in my comments the blame lies on both sides of the political fence. The collapse happened under Republican watch and it was perpetuated by subsequent administrations of the various party regimes. That collapse didn't just happen, but has been an ongoing train wreck for the half century.

Okay, but why are all the current issues with our country being blamed on Bush. He was a president just 5 years ago.

Likely, if action is taken against Syria, he will be blamed for not taking action quicker against Iraq. Thus, allowing all their chemical weapons escape to Syria before the invasion. It will always be his fault. :-)

zeus3925
09-09-2013, 09:49 PM
Okay, but why is all the current issues with are country being blamed on Bush. He was a president just 5 years ago.

Likely, if action is taken against Syria, he will be blamed for not taking action quicker against Iraq. Thus, allowing all their chemical weapons escape to Syria before the invasion. It will always be his fault. :-)

Huh????????

Marvin S
09-09-2013, 10:05 PM
Government workers as a whole make salaries significantly lower than their counterparts in private industry. There has to be something in place to enable governments to recruit competent workers competitively with private companies.

In 1964 I was sitting in a 4B's restaurant in Missoula MT eating breakfast with my wife & our then young family. The person who had left the table had left the front section of a WSJ & I read the section that had the quick notes in the center of the front page. One of those was about paying government folks better to attract those competents that you talk of. As with all things the law of unintended consequences took over (or did it) & we as citizens end up with the same hacks only they are now paid much better :(.

A study was done recently in WA showing the private sector making in wages & benny's about 60% of what the public sector does. As it is in MN, you have your bright folks in the HC sector, we own STJ, & we have our bright folks in the Aircraft, Biotech & Technology industries, none of whom come cheap.

As a retiree from Boeing, I got 1 1/4 percent of my last five years average salary times the number of good years that I was employed. There is no extra for OT, or additional bumps in wages as is the case in the public sector who gets 2% of their last 2 years salary, all OT counts & any bumps caused by cashing in SL & Vacation time. While I get no COLA the public employee receives an annual COLA & access to other goodies not available to the private sector. My retirement check is the same today as it was 20 years ago & if you look at it in a different manner, I had to do a lot of value added work to enable the company to continue that largesse, however paltry. Had we not owned a successful business & had a little success investing we would be living with the trailer trash rather than where we live.

While it varies from state to state & the feds are not overly generous to their flunkies on the wage end, there never seems to be a shortage of unqualified to fill the government jobs :). I did a lot of negotiating on the School Board & am familiar with the ability of unions to find someone who will put their John Henry on a study, for the right price, to prove an invalid point. Example: there are not enough kids to fill any classroom staffed by someone competent in the subject matter & capable of presenting same, not something you'll hear in negotiations.

Dan Storts
09-09-2013, 11:34 PM
That's what happens when you talk to Siri. R's become are or our.

We will just need to wait and see how the media reports the events of Syria. This is if we would take some type of action.

zeus3925
09-10-2013, 06:24 AM
In 1964 I was sitting in a 4B's restaurant in Missoula MT eating breakfast with my wife & our then young family. The person who had left the table had left the front section of a WSJ & I read the section that had the quick notes in the center of the front page. One of those was about paying government folks better to attract those competents that you talk of. As with all things the law of unintended consequences took over (or did it) & we as citizens end up with the same hacks only they are now paid much better :(.

A study was done recently in WA showing the private sector making in wages & benny's about 60% of what the public sector does. As it is in MN, you have your bright folks in the HC sector, we own STJ, & we have our bright folks in the Aircraft, Biotech & Technology industries, none of whom come cheap.

As a retiree from Boeing, I got 1 1/4 percent of my last five years average salary times the number of good years that I was employed. There is no extra for OT, or additional bumps in wages as is the case in the public sector who gets 2% of their last 2 years salary, all OT counts & any bumps caused by cashing in SL & Vacation time. While I get no COLA the public employee receives an annual COLA & access to other goodies not available to the private sector. My retirement check is the same today as it was 20 years ago & if you look at it in a different manner, I had to do a lot of value added work to enable the company to continue that largesse, however paltry. Had we not owned a successful business & had a little success investing we would be living with the trailer trash rather than where we live.

While it varies from state to state & the feds are not overly generous to their flunkies on the wage end, there never seems to be a shortage of unqualified to fill the government jobs :). I did a lot of negotiating on the School Board & am familiar with the ability of unions to find someone who will put their John Henry on a study, for the right price, to prove an invalid point. Example: there are not enough kids to fill any classroom staffed by someone competent in the subject matter & capable of presenting same, not something you'll hear in negotiations.
We used Chamber data and state wage surveys that were available.

Marv I take issue with your assertion that government employees are incompetent. The vast majority are skilled and competent. I would stack up our snowplow drivers against any on our wind blown prairie land. Our plow jocks were recognized as the best in the state.

I worked as a cartographer for a well known company in the business. Yet our county cartographers were producing product far superior to any the private company produced. Other units of government were contracting with the county as we could do it better and cheaper.

None of our governmental pension funds were negotiable as they are set by the state legislatures.

I am sorry to hear that Boeing covered your pension so meagerly, but maybe you should have formed a union when you had a chance. ( And maybe I should have moved to the State of Washington to cash in, eh?)

road kill
09-10-2013, 06:29 AM
So, reading this thread one is led to believe all those men that built Detroit are evil.
All those who sucked it dry are victims!


Interesting take..................;-)

zeus3925
09-10-2013, 10:02 AM
So, reading this thread one is led to believe all those men that built Detroit are evil.
All those who sucked it dry are victims!


Interesting take..................;-)

I don't think anyone said that, Stan. There were a lot of folks that tried to turn it around. They didn't care whether they were red or blue.