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View Full Version : The income distribution - is this reverse socialism?



Henry V
09-12-2013, 09:04 AM
Since there is talk of socialism and redistribution of wealth and income every day on these boards, I was surprised that no one posted a link to this article yesterday.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/10/pay-gap-richest-poorest/2793343/

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/10/income-disparity-between-richest-1-and-rest-of-us-biggest-since-20s/

Among the findings:
The top 1% of earners in the U.S. pulled in 19.3% of total household income in 2012, which is their biggest slice of total income in more than 100 years.
In a separate analysis, Saez found the top 1% of earnings posted 86% real income growth between 1993 and 2000. Meanwhile, the real income growth of the bottom 99% of earnings rose 6.6%.

There is also a great video of the current status of the distribution of wealth at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

Seems like reverse socialism is going on, even under this administration. Do any of you know how much more income and wealth these job creators need before they will create jobs? Is it possible that this real redistribution, which has occurred for the last 30 years, is bad for our economy?

Buzz
09-12-2013, 09:11 AM
Didn't you know that those folks have it so bad, that Atlas is about ready to shrug???

Marvin S
09-12-2013, 10:00 AM
Since there is talk of socialism and redistribution of wealth and income every day on these boards, I was surprised that no one posted a link to this article yesterday.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/10/pay-gap-richest-poorest/2793343/

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/10/income-disparity-between-richest-1-and-rest-of-us-biggest-since-20s/

Among the findings:
The top 1% of earners in the U.S. pulled in 19.3% of total household income in 2012, which is their biggest slice of total income in more than 100 years.
In a separate analysis, Saez found the top 1% of earnings posted 86% real income growth between 1993 and 2000. Meanwhile, the real income growth of the bottom 99% of earnings rose 6.6%.

There is also a great video of the current status of the distribution of wealth at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

Seems like reverse socialism is going on, even under this administration. Do any of you know how much more income and wealth these job creators need before they will create jobs? Is it possible that this real redistribution, which has occurred for the last 30 years, is bad for our economy?

Do you have any suggestions to combat this?

HuntClub
09-12-2013, 10:04 AM
Of course, if you have too much money (as determined by someones opinion) you must give it to someone who has less. Simple.

luvmylabs23139
09-12-2013, 11:20 AM
America’s top earners tend to be highly paid executives or entrepreneurs — the “working rich” — instead of elites who enjoy lives of leisure on inherited wealth, Saez wrote in a report that accompanied the new analysis.
SO people sho bust their rears are rewarded. What is wrong with that as opposed to those who do nothing but leech off the few federal income tax payers?

swampcollielover
09-12-2013, 11:30 AM
Since there is talk of socialism and redistribution of wealth and income every day on these boards, I was surprised that no one posted a link to this article yesterday.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/10/pay-gap-richest-poorest/2793343/

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/10/income-disparity-between-richest-1-and-rest-of-us-biggest-since-20s/

Among the findings:
The top 1% of earners in the U.S. pulled in 19.3% of total household income in 2012, which is their biggest slice of total income in more than 100 years.
In a separate analysis, Saez found the top 1% of earnings posted 86% real income growth between 1993 and 2000. Meanwhile, the real income growth of the bottom 99% of earnings rose 6.6%.

There is also a great video of the current status of the distribution of wealth at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

Seems like reverse socialism is going on, even under this administration. Do any of you know how much more income and wealth these job creators need before they will create jobs? Is it possible that this real redistribution, which has occurred for the last 30 years, is bad for our economy?

These "analysis" always slay me! Why are they comparing 1993 - 2000? Seems odd since we are in 2013! The reason for the 2013 growth of top earners is probably tied to the unemployment rates, but regardless this 'red hearing' should be research in context, before using it I this article. I am not sure what you mean by reverse Socialism. If Socialism is take from the rich and give to the poor. This is Obama's creed! Obama care and his whole presidency has been about taking for those who work and giving more to those who do not! That is pure Socialism. Nothing 'reversing' about that! Aside from that, the numbers used in this article are somewhat irrelevant to what is going on today. Since 9/11 and the mortgage crisis follow by the market crash in 2008/2009 none of the old rules apply!

jb504079
09-12-2013, 12:59 PM
I'll shed light on part of the answer no one has mentioned yet. And it's the workforce participation rates, coupled with high unemployment rates. If the same number of people were counted in the workforce participation rate as they were in 2008, the unemployment rate would be above 15% today. But take a look at the demographics among young people. They aren't working. What we are about to witness, and really are beginning to witness already, is the product of extreme liberal indoctrination among out public education system. From Pre-K to College, kids have been conditioned to think a certain way. Progressive ideology has absolutely dominated academia for the past 30 years, and now we are beginning to bear the fruit of it.

Youth unemployment is sky high. Kids are waiting to get married. 45% of teens over the age of 16 DO NOT have a driver's license and rely on a parent to drive them places. Kids are living at home longer with their parents. Young adults are waiting longer to start families. This is the product of something isn't it???? Of course it is.

Progressive liberalism is killing this country. When people do not begin working hard when they are young, chances are, they aren't increasing their wealth like the hard working wealthy people in this country. The sense of entitlement has replaced American work ethic, especially in Americans from Generation X and younger. If you are under the age of 35, you are in this catagory. Kids today weren't raised believing in the same America the Baby Boomers were. They weren't raised with the same kind of work ethic either. They've been brought up within the progressive liberal academic institutions....aka...public schools and universities. They're brainwashed, and by and large, they're lazy.

Step back and view your masterpiece liberals, because this is what it looks like. High unemployment, massive government programs, massive debts, fewer jobs, and just general malcontent.

Franco
09-12-2013, 01:40 PM
I saw that report yesterday and didn't put a lot of stock in it. First, we are having record levels of migration to the USA of poor and unskilled. Second, maybe we should try a Free Market solution instead of the government trying to fix things and only making the matter worse. One has to look at our Tax Code that is thousands of pages only because of lobbyist. Eliminate the Tax Code and implement a Fair Tax system and the gap will narrow!

sick lids
09-12-2013, 02:00 PM
Since there is talk of socialism and redistribution of wealth and income every day on these boards, I was surprised that no one posted a link to this article yesterday.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/10/pay-gap-richest-poorest/2793343/

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/10/income-disparity-between-richest-1-and-rest-of-us-biggest-since-20s/

Among the findings:
The top 1% of earners in the U.S. pulled in 19.3% of total household income in 2012, which is their biggest slice of total income in more than 100 years.
In a separate analysis, Saez found the top 1% of earnings posted 86% real income growth between 1993 and 2000. Meanwhile, the real income growth of the bottom 99% of earnings rose 6.6%.

There is also a great video of the current status of the distribution of wealth at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

Seems like reverse socialism is going on, even under this administration. Do any of you know how much more income and wealth these job creators need before they will create jobs? Is it possible that this real redistribution, which has occurred for the last 30 years, is bad for our economy?

Hard to tell where you stand here. In every job setting there is always 1 who works harder, longer, or smarter than the rest. By that simple fact they should make more, be it a group of 10 or 100 or 1 billion, just the way it is and should be. Every one should try to be the #1 and not the rest.

Sometimes money begets money, unfortunately evolution only selects for successful reproduction, not commons sense or the ability to make and keep wealth. If people that are in the upper income brackets continue to have fewer and fewer children than the rest of the population you could extrapolate that that the divide will naturally continue to grow. I do not see reverse socialism at work here, in fact quite the opposite.

The problem with waiting for the so called job creators to create jobs is where are their incentives to do so. They will only create jobs for the opportunities to make more money for themselves, and then be criticized for doing so. The masses need to learn how to create their OWN jobs, not look up and say give me.

charly_t
09-12-2013, 02:04 PM
.................................................. ..............................we should try a Free Market solution instead of the government trying to fix things and only making the matter worse. One has to look at our Tax Code that is thousands of pages only because of lobbyist. Eliminate the Tax Code and implement a Fair Tax system and the gap will narrow!

Ditto ! Good post..........

Franco
09-12-2013, 04:06 PM
Hard to tell where you stand here. In every job setting there is always 1 who works harder, longer, or smarter than the rest. By that simple fact they should make more, be it a group of 10 or 100 or 1 billion, just the way it is and should be. Every one should try to be the #1 and not the rest.

Sometimes money begets money, unfortunately evolution only selects for successful reproduction, not commons sense or the ability to make and keep wealth. If people that are in the upper income brackets continue to have fewer and fewer children than the rest of the population you could extrapolate that that the divide will naturally continue to grow. I do not see reverse socialism at work here, in fact quite the opposite.

The problem with waiting for the so called job creators to create jobs is where are their incentives to do so. They will only create jobs for the opportunities to make more money for themselves, and then be criticized for doing so. The masses need to learn how to create their OWN jobs, not look up and say give me. It amazes me how many in this country have become anti-business and pro big government, especially in the heavy unionized states. The government does not create wealth, they take it. The entitlement mentality all the way from welfare recipients to the union mentality will be our downfall. The time to eliminate the IRS is long overdue for that is the vehicle that allows politicians to buy votes from stealing from the job creators. End the IRS and support...https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p320x320/1185969_10152205880258452_1220534011_n.png

Golddogs
09-12-2013, 05:10 PM
I'll shed light on part of the answer no one has mentioned yet. And it's the workforce participation rates, coupled with high unemployment rates. If the same number of people were counted in the workforce participation rate as they were in 2008, the unemployment rate would be above 15% today. But take a look at the demographics among young people. They aren't working. What we are about to witness, and really are beginning to witness already, is the product of extreme liberal indoctrination among out public education system. From Pre-K to College, kids have been conditioned to think a certain way. Progressive ideology has absolutely dominated academia for the past 30 years, and now we are beginning to bear the fruit of it.

Youth unemployment is sky high. Kids are waiting to get married. 45% of teens over the age of 16 DO NOT have a driver's license and rely on a parent to drive them places. Kids are living at home longer with their parents. Young adults are waiting longer to start families. This is the product of something isn't it???? Of course it is.

Progressive liberalism is killing this country. When people do not begin working hard when they are young, chances are, they aren't increasing their wealth like the hard working wealthy people in this country. The sense of entitlement has replaced American work ethic, especially in Americans from Generation X and younger. If you are under the age of 35, you are in this catagory. Kids today weren't raised believing in the same America the Baby Boomers were. They weren't raised with the same kind of work ethic either. They've been brought up within the progressive liberal academic institutions....aka...public schools and universities. They're brainwashed, and by and large, they're lazy.

Step back and view your masterpiece liberals, because this is what it looks like. High unemployment, massive government programs, massive debts, fewer jobs, and just general malcontent.

I call BS on this.( underlined passages) Work ethic starts at home, not school. Kids, given everthing they ask for, have no idea what earning it means. Full blame on the parents on this one. They created their childrens entitlement mentality. And include the parents insistence on all inclusive sports teams. Everyone has to play or it isn't fair. Life isn't fair, deal with it. Not accepting responsbility for ones failures is another trait learned at home.This spans all politcal stripes and ethnic backrounds.

If parents don't teach the meaning of hard work, responsibility and value of a dollar, look in the mirror if you want someone to blame.

menmon
09-12-2013, 06:37 PM
I call BS on this.( underlined passages) Work ethic starts at home, not school. Kids, given everthing they ask for, have no idea what earning it means. Full blame on the parents on this one. They created their childrens entitlement mentality. And include the parents insistence on all inclusive sports teams. Everyone has to play or it isn't fair. Life isn't fair, deal with it. Not accepting responsbility for ones failures is another trait learned at home.This spans all politcal stripes and ethnic backrounds.

If parents don't teach the meaning of hard work, responsibility and value of a dollar, look in the mirror if you want someone to blame.

You got that right. I have two hard working white kids at Kickapoo Ranch the rest are hispanic and have parents that came here from Mexico that have worked hard and showed there kids how to work hard. These kids put in 30 hours a week here and then are honor students and the high school.

Thank God somebody is trying and not expectiong it to be given to them or we will soon be a country of losers. I think they need to tax those rich folks folks and pay for these poor Mexican kids to go to college.

menmon
09-12-2013, 06:44 PM
Once upon a time this country had a hand full of haves and the rest have nots that worked hard to make the few richer. Keep there options minimal and these few can keep exploiting the opportunity. Public education, credit opportunities and anti-trust laws moved us out of the Robber Barron era. I don't think I would have like that era unless I was one of them. Every post except Golddogs wants us back there. Obviously you really have not thought this through. Makes for good political rhetoric...but that's it.

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2013, 07:04 PM
Once upon a time this country had a hand full of haves and the rest have nots that worked hard to make the few richer. Keep there options minimal and these few can keep exploiting the opportunity. Public education, credit opportunities and anti-trust laws moved us out of the Robber Barron era. I don't think I would have like that era unless I was one of them. Every post except Golddogs wants us back there. Obviously you really have not thought this through. Makes for good political rhetoric...but that's it.
Wouldn't "giving" college to any poorer kid, be counter to Golddogs' premise that one must learn to "earn" things, not expect them to be "given"?

FWIW, I would agree with Golddogs ... parents tend to want to make life better/easier for their children, but that is not always what will be the best for the kids over the longer haul.

Franco
09-12-2013, 08:52 PM
Once upon a time this country had a hand full of haves and the rest have nots that worked hard to make the few richer. Keep there options minimal and these few can keep exploiting the opportunity. Public education, credit opportunities and anti-trust laws moved us out of the Robber Barron era. I don't think I would have like that era unless I was one of them. Every post except Golddogs wants us back there. Obviously you really have not thought this through. Makes for good political rhetoric...but that's it.

The Robber Barrons of today are our politicians that waste the people's labor on programs that don't work! Look at LBJ's Great Society; all it did was finance more poverty thus growing the poverty class. Money taken from the tax payer, spent on feelgood projects that only made the problem bigger.

Reading blogs of the recent Labor ruling in Indiana and also from the bankrupt Detroit, there is a hostility for the people that put bread on their table. An attitude that will kill any real wealth left in the country!

Life is not fair and the government can't make it so. If you want to make something of your life, work for it and earn it. Don't ask me to subsidize anyone's poor choices or pay for their damn Health Care. Heatlh Care in this country was just fine before the the days of PPOs and HMO's. Two systems that were bought and paid for by Lobbyist.

sick lids
09-12-2013, 09:42 PM
. I think they need to tax those rich folks folks and pay for these poor Mexican kids to go to college.

I do not think there is a law stopping you from paying for them to go to college! Why make a law saying I might have to do what you are not willing to do your self?

Marvin S
09-12-2013, 10:23 PM
I think they need to tax those rich folks folks and pay for these poor Mexican kids to go to college.

In our family everyone paid for their own college - amazing what it teaches one about self reliance.


It amazes me how many in this country have become anti-business and pro big government, especially in the heavy unionized states. The government does not create wealth, they take it. The entitlement mentality all the way from welfare recipients to the union mentality will be our downfall. The time to eliminate the IRS is long overdue for that is the vehicle that allows politicians to buy votes from stealing from the job creators. End the IRS and support...https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p320x320/1185969_10152205880258452_1220534011_n.png

As per usual you have it wrong - we have a sales (fair) tax in WA - more loophpoles than the income tax - a flat tax is the only way to go :)


Do you have any suggestions to combat this?

I'm really awaiting your answer - what could have been a good thread with meaningful discussion needs to be refocused!!!!!!!

Henry V
09-12-2013, 11:34 PM
Do you have any suggestions to combat this?

Well, at least your reply seems to acknowledge that there may be a problem. I guess I would ask you, what policies have changed over the past 30 years which have created this situation? That would be a place to start, wouldn't it? Reversing the policies that have created this redistribution of wealth should be considered.

The supply siders have ruled the day for most of this period. Effective federal tax rates are at a near all time low, yet the distribution of income and of wealth is similar to that of the roaring 20's right before the big crash, and the gap between rich and poor continues to grow. We have been told by the supply siders that the wealth will trickle down. We are told that a rising tide will lift all ships. I simply asked those of you that believe in this economic theory when all these other ships will be lifted? The job creators are doing great by every measure. Where are the jobs. Your theory says there there should be jobs. We had two large tax cuts under the previous administration, where are the jobs?

Seems like we need to consider what needs to be done to increase the demand side of the equation. Instead, we seem to be pursuing a race to the bottom.

You tell me,what policies are needed to increase demand? Maybe we just need to stay the course and it will work out?

swampcollielover
09-13-2013, 11:12 AM
You got that right. I have two hard working white kids at Kickapoo Ranch the rest are hispanic and have parents that came here from Mexico that have worked hard and showed there kids how to work hard. These kids put in 30 hours a week here and then are honor students and the high school.

Thank God somebody is trying and not expectiong it to be given to them or we will soon be a country of losers. I think they need to tax those rich folks folks and pay for these poor Mexican kids to go to college.

Be CAREFUL what you wish for...following this logic you will soon be one of those "rich folks" and pay for my Grandkids to go to school. Free market is the only way we can turn this around!

Uncle Bill
09-13-2013, 12:32 PM
Well, at least your reply seems to acknowledge that there may be a problem. I guess I would ask you, what policies have changed over the past 30 years which have created this situation? That would be a place to start, wouldn't it? Reversing the policies that have created this redistribution of wealth should be considered.

The supply siders have ruled the day for most of this period. Effective federal tax rates are at a near all time low, yet the distribution of income and of wealth is similar to that of the roaring 20's right before the big crash, and the gap between rich and poor continues to grow. We have been told by the supply siders that the wealth will trickle down. We are told that a rising tide will lift all ships. I simply asked those of you that believe in this economic theory when all these other ships will be lifted? The job creators are doing great by every measure. Where are the jobs. Your theory says there there should be jobs. We had two large tax cuts under the previous administration, where are the jobs?

Seems like we need to consider what needs to be done to increase the demand side of the equation. Instead, we seem to be pursuing a race to the bottom.

You tell me,what policies are needed to increase demand? Maybe we just need to stay the course and it will work out?

It would be an exercise in frustration to even begin to make a socialist of your ilk, Henry, to even understand the "free" market, let alone the trickle-down philosophy. Only the ignorant are into your form of class envy.

In a free society, the people are given many opportunities to succeed. But there will always be a 'something-for-nothing' crowd that will have their hands out, because in their view they are 'owed' for some strange reason. Their hand-outs are a form of a right as they have been told by the socialists/Democrats for the time frame you are looking at. Their parents can't teach them either because they were brain-washed in that belief as well.

Without recognizing a free society demands responsibility of the individual to take care of themselves, and NOT rely on big government for every scrap of existance, the nation will continue to slide into Marxism/communism, much like the Obamaites are actively changing daily.

It's not difficult to explain HOW those numbers occurred, Henry. Your precious Democrat-led oligarchy providing all that stimulus and money printing has been taken advantage of by those on Wall Street, that understand how to fleece the ignorant. If you need to point the finger of blame, handing out low-interest lucre to those that know what to do with it, might be your answer.

UB

Marvin S
09-13-2013, 12:35 PM
Well, at least your reply seems to acknowledge that there may be a problem. I guess I would ask you, what policies have changed over the past 30 years which have created this situation? That would be a place to start, wouldn't it? Reversing the policies that have created this redistribution of wealth should be considered.

The supply siders have ruled the day for most of this period. Effective federal tax rates are at a near all time low, yet the distribution of income and of wealth is similar to that of the roaring 20's ?

I've probably seen a lot more than most here, having grown up during the depression in SD. For some reason I was usually the person in charge of, at the least, my little area. As a Foreman with 15 shift bosses & 400 miners (all of whose names I knew) I saw the work ethic of 50 years ago & swore I would never have a business that was reliant on labor to any extent. If I saw that 50 years ago, & I'm not the only person looking at that, you know others are looking the same direction, hence the big push to robotics. Smarter machines need better trained people which leaves those who failed to try out in the cold.

There is no doubt tax policy toward offshoring helped that trend, but as far as taxes on the working man I think they could go lower :). I do have an issue with the tax treatment given those who are vultures on the system, but believe they also create good by reinvigorating businesses that have gotten complacent. I believe that outfits like Bain Capital are worthy, they just need to not get a tax break unavailable to the common folk. & Bain is small potatoes compared to many in the vulture field, pioneered by Max Heine of Mutual Shares many years ago. I think to have a set figure on inheritance is wrong, they should pay capital gains on the gain like all do.

The Great Society was a HUGE mistake, but they create jobs for Democrats administering the program & doing well. We buy local or American as a preference, shop the local farmers market, use local tradesmen as long as they do the job. We are not high livers, that the Capital Gains doesn't kick in until you exit the 15% bracket is perfect for us, it's nice to keep that reward that you took a risk for.

3 of our 4 sons are self employed, the overregulation from the undertalented that they go through in their businesses makes one wonder why they do it. As a citizen I see what some arrogant SOB with rules to back them think they can do. Not everyone is as aggeressive as I am so they comply with things they do not need to.

This is a little to complicated for a forum - I am not happy with the inability of any of our leaders to create something meaningful, both parties. It's as if they get a cause that is not going to be solved, but talk it to death as long as the donations roll in.

I like pot stirrers & will encourage them with donations, when they go corporate the donations stop. I don't know if you read Mother Jones or the New Yorker, I'm a subscriber & find on occasion their articles thought provoking, but they will go stretches where there is no content. Not all reporters are qualified to report :(. At the reduced rate it make for good reading. I do think there could be a greater requirement for assimilation prior to citizenship. I've solved nothing with this post, but you can see the complication behind your question, there is no one size fits all solution.

The greatest problem is the large cadre of folks who have no skills to participate in the working world, that does not get solved with a minimum wage.

Buzz
09-13-2013, 12:46 PM
Be CAREFUL what you wish for...following this logic you will soon be one of those "rich folks" and pay for my Grandkids to go to school. Free market is the only way we can turn this around!

Umm. It depends on your definition of rich folks. I know menmon has at least 2 or 3 field trial dogs in training. I have 3.

It isn't exactly a hobby for poor folks... Maybe future poor folks!

I doubt that menmon is calling for anything that he isn't willing to belly up to the bar on.

GaryJ
09-13-2013, 01:08 PM
I've probably seen a lot more than most here, having grown up during the depression in SD. For some reason I was usually the person in charge of, at the least, my little area. As a Foreman with 15 shift bosses & 400 miners (all of whose names I knew) I saw the work ethic of 50 years ago & swore I would never have a business that was reliant on labor to any extent. If I saw that 50 years ago, & I'm not the only person looking at that, you know others are looking the same direction, hence the big push to robotics. Smarter machines need better trained people which leaves those who failed to try out in the cold.



I was working in a paper mill in 1975 and saw what you saw. There was also a Ford plant, a steel mill, and a the Norton Abrasives HQ and plant in the area. I remember when Ford had what everyone referred to as their FIRST layoff. Guys I worked with who had relatives at the Ford plant seemed to change over night. They would say things like "why should I bust my $ss for this company when this company will lay me off just like they did to my ...." or "if the company doesn't care about me why should I care about the company" Many to all new hires came in with the same attitude like someone owed them a job and a living. Talking to friends that worked in the other plants had similar stories.

Gov't programs have enabled people to do the minimum, not necessarily their best or worse, but the minimum required to get by.

Just wanted you to know you weren't the only who saw the attitude change.

roseberry
09-13-2013, 03:13 PM
"The poor you will always have amoung you......" - Jesus Christ, Matthew 26:11

rboudet
09-13-2013, 03:41 PM
You got that right. I have two hard working white kids at Kickapoo Ranch the rest are hispanic and have parents that came here from Mexico that have worked hard and showed there kids how to work hard. These kids put in 30 hours a week here and then are honor students and the high school.

Thank God somebody is trying and not expectiong it to be given to them or we will soon be a country of losers. I think they need to tax those rich folks folks and pay for these poor Mexican kids to go to college.

Great! I'll send you my student loan loan info so you can start paying it for me. Heck, how about you pay half and Ill pay the rest? And there are already programs that will help ANYONE (not just Mexicans) that needs it and wants to go the college.

swampcollielover
09-14-2013, 11:42 AM
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis,

luvmylabs23139
09-14-2013, 12:10 PM
You got that right. I have two hard working white kids at Kickapoo Ranch the rest are hispanic and have parents that came here from Mexico that have worked hard and showed there kids how to work hard. These kids put in 30 hours a week here and then are honor students and the high school.

Thank God somebody is trying and not expectiong it to be given to them or we will soon be a country of losers. I think they need to tax those rich folks folks and pay for these poor Mexican kids to go to college.
If they jumped the border they must be tossed today end of story!

luvmylabs23139
09-14-2013, 12:20 PM
Once upon a time this country had a hand full of haves and the rest have nots that worked hard to make the few richer. Keep there options minimal and these few can keep exploiting the opportunity. Public education, credit opportunities and anti-trust laws moved us out of the Robber Barron era. I don't think I would have like that era unless I was one of them. Every post except Golddogs wants us back there. Obviously you really have not thought this through. Makes for good political rhetoric...but that's it.

Many of us believe that hard work pays off and are pissed that our hard earned money is taken from us by the gov't and given to those that do not work hard.
Just look at the stupidly low SAT scores some people get to go to collwge where they do not belong on the money the feds stole from me.

menmon
09-14-2013, 12:30 PM
As usual....my point went over many of your heads. Let me explain further.

The point is that these young first generation Mexicans have work ethic and have taken advantage of our public school system and will grasp the opportunity of higher education and become productive US citizens. Their parents came over illegally seeking opportunity and bestowed that in their kids.

See here we blame the public education system for our kids shortcomings, when we have raised a bunch of entitled brats. However, when someone is smart enough to embrace it, good things happen for them. Obviously my tax dollars are used for foolish things, but educating someone that wants to learn is not foolish and benefits me as a member of society, whether they stay here and work or go back to their home country.

You guys are to shortsided in your thought. Educating folks makes the world better.

luvmylabs23139
09-14-2013, 01:00 PM
As usual....my point went over many of your heads. Let me explain further.

The point is that these young first generation Mexicans have work ethic and have taken advantage of our public school system and will grasp the opportunity of higher education and become productive US citizens. Their parents came over illegally seeking opportunity and bestowed that in their kids.

See here we blame the public education system for our kids shortcomings, when we have raised a bunch of entitled brats. However, when someone is smart enough to embrace it, good things happen for them. Obviously my tax dollars are used for foolish things, but educating someone that wants to learn is not foolish and benefits me as a member of society, whether they stay here and work or go back to their home country.

You guys are to shortsided in your thought. Educating folks makes the world better.

They and their parents stole from the taxpayers end of story. Toss them now! As soon as caught and stop screwing around! Not one dime of my hard earned money should go in any way to any illegal and that includes being forced to pay for them in American schools. Oh, as a LEGAL immigrant this is a slap in the face to playing by the rules.

menmon
09-14-2013, 01:30 PM
They and their parents stole from the taxpayers end of story. Toss them now! As soon as caught and stop screwing around! Not one dime of my hard earned money should go in any way to any illegal and that includes being forced to pay for them in American schools. Oh, as a LEGAL immigrant this is a slap in the face to playing by the rules.

These boys were born here...end of story.

menmon
09-14-2013, 01:33 PM
I'm sure some of our grandparents came here illegally too.

GaryJ
09-14-2013, 03:42 PM
I agree that education is a good thing. I also agree that the public schools do a decent job for those who want to learn.

I can only imagine how bad it must be for someone to leave their country and enter another one illegally but that doesn't make it right. Either enforce and live by the law or change it. As it stands now anyone who enters the country illegally should be deported.

Yes there are children born here from illegal immigrants but it wasn't their fault. They should not be penalized for the sins of their parents. Again, and if my memory serves me right, the law states if you are born here you are considered a citizen. If people don't like the law they need to,work to change it.

Gerry Clinchy
09-14-2013, 04:05 PM
I'm sure some of our grandparents came here illegally too.

Depends on the immigration laws at the time our grandparents arrived.

Gerry Clinchy
09-14-2013, 04:06 PM
I agree that education is a good thing. I also agree that the public schools do a decent job for those who want to learn.

I can only imagine how bad it must be for someone to leave their country and enter another one illegally but that doesn't make it right. Either enforce and live by the law or change it. As it stands now anyone who enters the country illegally should be deported.

Yes there are children born here from illegal immigrants but it wasn't their fault. They should not be penalized for the sins of their parents. Again, and if my memory serves me right, the law states if you are born here you are considered a citizen. If people don't like the law they need to,work to change it.
Common sense ... a rare commodity.

Pete
09-15-2013, 12:12 PM
The poor you will always have amoung you......" - Jesus Christ, Matthew 26:11

John
You get an A+
As I read potus from time to time ,,I read a common theme
Why is government promoting illegal immigration
Why does government promote welfare
Why does government promote war
why does government promote uncontrolled spending
why does the media twist facts
why does government promote one race over another along with the media
why does it seem like government want to control most things
why do we live in a republic but behave like an oligarchy or dictatorship
There are a million why's

By Using worldly wisdom none will ever actually understand why... they will talk about simple solutions and the elected with give them complicated answers as to why they can't.
Why because this is a spiritual problem that manifests in the flesh. The word of God has the simple solutions to all these subjects which most are covered.

You fix the physical by fixing the spiritual period. The fact is if someone thinks they can fix my problems by taking more of my money and stifling commerce and feel the need to keep tabs on me,,,they are messed up spiritually and I'm not even talking about someone who doesn't believe in God. I'm talking of the God referenced in 11Cor. 4:4

JC told some of the pharisee's that the devil was their father and not God almighty. In other words ,,,seed of the serpent. Those are the people controlling things. Seldom did the righteous control a government,,but often it was very subtly deceiving people.

If this posts pisses some off here,,,then good,,wake up.

OK there is your sunday morning sermon

GaryJ
09-15-2013, 02:15 PM
John
You get an A+
As I read potus from time to time ,,I read a common theme
Why is government promoting illegal immigration
Why does government promote welfare
Why does government promote war
why does government promote uncontrolled spending
why does the media twist facts
why does government promote one race over another along with the media
why does it seem like government want to control most things
why do we live in a republic but behave like an oligarchy or dictatorship
There are a million why's

By Using worldly wisdom none will ever actually understand why... they will talk about simple solutions and the elected with give them complicated answers as to why they can't.
Why because this is a spiritual problem that manifests in the flesh. The word of God has the simple solutions to all these subjects which most are covered.

You fix the physical by fixing the spiritual period. The fact is if someone thinks they can fix my problems by taking more of my money and stifling commerce and feel the need to keep tabs on me,,,they are messed up spiritually and I'm not even talking about someone who doesn't believe in God. I'm talking of the God referenced in 11Cor. 4:4

JC told some of the pharisee's that the devil was their father and not God almighty. In other words ,,,seed of the serpent. Those are the people controlling things. Seldom did the righteous control a government,,but often it was very subtly deceiving people.

If this posts pisses some off here,,,then good,,wake up.

OK there is your sunday morning sermon

Well said. Thank you.

Buzz
09-15-2013, 11:03 PM
They and their parents stole from the taxpayers end of story. Toss them now! As soon as caught and stop screwing around! Not one dime of my hard earned money should go in any way to any illegal and that includes being forced to pay for them in American schools. Oh, as a LEGAL immigrant this is a slap in the face to playing by the rules.


Looks like that kind of talk has gone on for awhile...


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/davebezesky/Pilgrams_zps50ccec57.jpg (http://s108.photobucket.com/user/davebezesky/media/Pilgrams_zps50ccec57.jpg.html)

coachmo
09-16-2013, 12:57 AM
Apples and oranges!

Franco
09-16-2013, 11:17 AM
The growing Income gap is the result of our over-reaching Fed Government!Notice the income gaps start when we went off the Gold Standard and the Fed was free to print money for banks and Wall Street?
https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/y4/r/-PAXP-deijE.gif (http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Income-Distribution.php)U.S. Household Incomes: A 44-Year Perspective
www.advisorperspectives.comEconomic (http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Income-Distribution.php) and Market Updates for Investment Planning

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 11:30 AM
These boys were born here...end of story.

The jump the border swat and plop out an anchor baby law needs to change! Nobody should gain from an illegal act period!

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 11:49 AM
As usual....my point went over many of your heads. Let me explain further.

The point is that these young first generation Mexicans have work ethic and have taken advantage of our public school system and will grasp the opportunity of higher education and become productive US citizens. Their parents came over illegally seeking opportunity and bestowed that in their kids.

See here we blame the public education system for our kids shortcomings, when we have raised a bunch of entitled brats. However, when someone is smart enough to embrace it, good things happen for them. Obviously my tax dollars are used for foolish things, but educating someone that wants to learn is not foolish and benefits me as a member of society, whether they stay here and work or go back to their home country.

You guys are to shortsided in your thought. Educating folks makes the world better.

Nope, they are stealing from me. The parents should have been tossed back and yes I mean tossed back as soon as caught. End jump, squat, plop now!
Say whatever you want, but as a legal immigrant whose family followed the rules I have ZERO tolerance for any illegal or their spawn. I'm sure you label me as one of those brats. Far from it.

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 11:53 AM
[QUOTE=menmon;1146115]I'm sure some of our grandparents came here illegally too.[/QUOTE

NOt mine! They only ever came here as visitors and returned home after each of their trips.

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 11:57 AM
I agree that education is a good thing. I also agree that the public schools do a decent job for those who want to learn.

I can only imagine how bad it must be for someone to leave their country and enter another one illegally but that doesn't make it right. Either enforce and live by the law or change it. As it stands now anyone who enters the country illegally should be deported.

Yes there are children born here from illegal immigrants but it wasn't their fault. They should not be penalized for the sins of their parents. Again, and if my memory serves me right, the law states if you are born here you are considered a citizen. If people don't like the law they need to,work to change it.

That law must be changed. Jump. squat and plop should not be rewarded end of story.
Would anyone say that if a bank robber gave the money to their kid the kid should be allowed to keep the money? It is the same thing!

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 12:13 PM
I agree that education is a good thing. I also agree that the public schools do a decent job for those who want to learn.

I can only imagine how bad it must be for someone to leave their country and enter another one illegally but that doesn't make it right. Either enforce and live by the law or change it. As it stands now anyone who enters the country illegally should be deported.

Yes there are children born here from illegal immigrants but it wasn't their fault. They should not be penalized for the sins of their parents. Again, and if my memory serves me right, the law states if you are born here you are considered a citizen. If people don't like the law they need to,work to change it.

NO they should not be rewarded for that and allowed to steal from taxpayers. I hope every one of them gets thrown back. Your response just hurts the situation. Play by the rules. Call me cold, call me mean, but I speak as someone who played by every rule.

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 12:25 PM
John
You get an A+
As I read potus from time to time ,,I read a common theme
Why is government promoting illegal immigration
Why does government promote welfare
Why does government promote war
why does government promote uncontrolled spending
why does the media twist facts
why does government promote one race over another along with the media
why does it seem like government want to control most things
why do we live in a republic but behave like an oligarchy or dictatorship
There are a million why's

By Using worldly wisdom none will ever actually understand why... they will talk about simple solutions and the elected with give them complicated answers as to why they can't.
Why because this is a spiritual problem that manifests in the flesh. The word of God has the simple solutions to all these subjects which most are covered.

You fix the physical by fixing the spiritual period. The fact is if someone thinks they can fix my problems by taking more of my money and stifling commerce and feel the need to keep tabs on me,,,they are messed up spiritually and I'm not even talking about someone who doesn't believe in God. I'm talking of the God referenced in 11Cor. 4:4

JC told some of the pharisee's that the devil was their father and not God almighty. In other words ,,,seed of the serpent. Those are the people controlling things. Seldom did the righteous control a government,,but often it was very subtly deceiving people.

If this posts pisses some off here,,,then good,,wake up.

OK there is your sunday morning sermon

How about just shutting the leehes down. I don't bust my butt to pay for baby mammas drama. Lived her living across from me and below me on my dime,

GaryJ
09-16-2013, 12:56 PM
NO they should not be rewarded for that and allowed to steal from taxpayers. I hope every one of them gets thrown back. Your response just hurts the situation. Play by the rules. Call me cold, call me mean, but I speak as someone who played by every rule.

It is not about being cold. The children are playing by the rules. The rule says if you are born here you are a citizen. It doesn't say if your mother was here illegally it doesn't count. So as someone who plays by the rules I would expect you to understand that. Not that you need to like the rule, and for the record I don't care for it either, or even agree with it but if that is the rule then until its changed the rule stands.

Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution reads:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Fourteenth Amendment was passed by Congress in 1866 and ratified by the states in 1868. It’s been a part of the Constitution for almost 150 years.
When a woman who is an illegal immigrant bears a child in the US, the Fourteenth Amendment makes that child automatically a citizen. If the mother is arrested and deported, she has to choose between taking her child with her or being separated from the child.

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 01:57 PM
Looks like that kind of talk has gone on for awhile...


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/davebezesky/Pilgrams_zps50ccec57.jpg (http://s108.photobucket.com/user/davebezesky/media/Pilgrams_zps50ccec57.jpg.html)

YOU compare hundreds of years ago to current day? What a joke. Jump through a ton of legal hoops as a skilled worker vs border jumping and squat, plop, amd leech???? Really??

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 02:01 PM
It is not about being cold. The children are playing by the rules. The rule says if you are born here you are a citizen. It doesn't say if your mother was here illegally it doesn't count. So as someone who plays by the rules I would expect you to understand that. Not that you need to like the rule, and for the record I don't care for it either, or even agree with it but if that is the rule then until its changed the rule stands.

Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution reads:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Fourteenth Amendment was passed by Congress in 1866 and ratified by the states in 1868. It’s been a part of the Constitution for almost 150 years.
When a woman who is an illegal immigrant bears a child in the US, the Fourteenth Amendment makes that child automatically a citizen. If the mother is arrested and deported, she has to choose between taking her child with her or being separated from the child.

The purpose was to make slaves citizens not the jump sqaut and plop. I wish evey one of them was tossed back today!!!

luvmylabs23139
09-16-2013, 02:19 PM
It is not about being cold. The children are playing by the rules. The rule says if you are born here you are a citizen. It doesn't say if your mother was here illegally it doesn't count. So as someone who plays by the rules I would expect you to understand that. Not that you need to like the rule, and for the record I don't care for it either, or even agree with it but if that is the rule then until its changed the rule stands.

Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution reads:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Fourteenth Amendment was passed by Congress in 1866 and ratified by the states in 1868. It’s been a part of the Constitution for almost 150 years.
When a woman who is an illegal immigrant bears a child in the US, the Fourteenth Amendment makes that child automatically a citizen. If the mother is arrested and deported, she has to choose between taking her child with her or being separated from the child.

The jump, plop and squat rule is so stupid. It allows grand theft from federal tax payers. On the other hand my Aunt and Uncle have to be very careful about how many days per year they visit their house outside of Disney that they bought paying cash per year.

Buzz
09-16-2013, 06:45 PM
Why do you hate the constitution?

Marvin S
09-16-2013, 10:29 PM
Why do you hate the constitution?

Luvy posts as someone with more than their fair share of hate:(.

menmon
09-17-2013, 04:06 PM
YOU compare hundreds of years ago to current day? What a joke. Jump through a ton of legal hoops as a skilled worker vs border jumping and squat, plop, amd leech???? Really??

You keep saying they leech! They are the productive ones....the lazy, the world owes me US citizens are the leeches and those piss me off much more than someone who comes and gives their labor and takes the fruit of it.

No difference that 100 years ago...someone looking for opportunity. No different than when our companies go and exploit their labor in other countries other than the laws have been written to where that is legal.

huntinman
09-17-2013, 04:20 PM
It's almost not even worth debating Luvy. It's just gonna cause you to blow a blood vessel or something... Libs don't think laws apply unless they support the lib agenda. Simple as that. Menmon... Love to see you sneak across the border into Mexico and try to tell the Mexican govt you just want to start a little doggie hotel in Cancun... But first they need to pay for your food for a few years... Maybe some welfare, tuition assistance, and of course health care...

menmon
09-17-2013, 05:04 PM
It's almost not even worth debating Luvy. It's just gonna cause you to blow a blood vessel or something... Libs don't think laws apply unless they support the lib agenda. Simple as that. Menmon... Love to see you sneak across the border into Mexico and try to tell the Mexican govt you just want to start a little doggie hotel in Cancun... But first they need to pay for your food for a few years... Maybe some welfare, tuition assistance, and of course health care...

See all those opportunist coming here from all over the world is what makes us great! If we have to depend on our citizenary for productive folks, we are in a big bunch of hurt. I suggest they get off their ass and out work these folks and they have nothing to worry about. Sounds like you want government to protect them. I thought you were for government staying out of your business?

coachmo
09-17-2013, 09:41 PM
Menmon, what portion of our citizenry are you referring to as lazy leeches? Would that be the ones that you so often defend against all of the cruel, greedy conservatives out there?

huntinman
09-17-2013, 10:19 PM
See all those opportunist coming here from all over the world is what makes us great! If we have to depend on our citizenary for productive folks, we are in a big bunch of hurt. I suggest they get off their ass and out work these folks and they have nothing to worry about. Sounds like you want government to protect them. I thought you were for government staying out of your business?

I never said anything about the government protecting anyone... Come to think of it... That is their job, but Obama has proven he doesn't take it seriously.

What the govt should do, at a minimum is enforce the current laws on the books.

Those opportunists you mention? They are actually criminals if they break the law to get here.

Henry V
11-19-2013, 11:46 PM
Even the wall street journal is getting worried about the current distribution of wealth. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304672404579186223105265440

Marvin S
11-20-2013, 09:17 AM
Even the wall street journal is getting worried about the current distribution of wealth. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304672404579186223105265440

As with most in the print media, the WSJ is concerned about their bottom line. Without that to fall back on they will be unable to hire business types such as Albert Hunt :rolleyes: to expound on their editorial page.

Though I will say in your defense Henry, anyone who makes an investment that doesn't look at the market potential of that product is not being wise. Henry Ford had a very good idea when he made sure his employees were capable of buying one of what they built, just wouldn't give them a choice of color :).

Buzz
11-20-2013, 09:37 AM
Can't read it, it's behind the pay wall. I subscribe to the NYT, and they let subscribers post and share links to articles with non-subscribers...

My grandfather had a saying. All the money goes to the top, you might as well grab as much as you can while it's on its way by. He was born in 1904 and lived to 100. He's the one responsible for my political views I think. He was a big fan of both of those Roosevelt guys. He used to talk a lot about keeping money in circulation, or the velocity of money. It occurs to me that he wouldn't think much of the current distribution of wealth. Marvin, he knew Henry Ford. Grandpa owned a scrap yard and some guy used to stop in and walk around looking at and talking about scrap cars in various states of assembly/disassembly. Never said who he was & Grandpa didn't realize it was Ford until he saw his picture one day in the newspaper.

Henry V
11-20-2013, 05:57 PM
Can't read it, it's behind the pay wall. I subscribe to the NYT, and they let subscribers post and share links to articles with non-subscribers...

Shoot. It was there for free before.....needless to say when WSJ starts worrying about wealth consolidation as a problem.....

Marvin S
11-20-2013, 06:16 PM
My grandfather had a saying. All the money goes to the top, you might as well grab as much as you can while it's on its way by. He was born in 1904 and lived to 100. He's the one responsible for my political views I think. He was a big fan of both of those Roosevelt guys. He used to talk a lot about keeping money in circulation, or the velocity of money. It occurs to me that he wouldn't think much of the current distribution of wealth. Marvin, he knew Henry Ford. Grandpa owned a scrap yard and some guy used to stop in and walk around looking at and talking about scrap cars in various states of assembly/disassembly. Never said who he was & Grandpa didn't realize it was Ford until he saw his picture one day in the newspaper.

One of the things wrong with our leadership, in all parties today, is their inability to relate to people who are happy being normal. The reason I really liked Truman, & liked both Goldwater & Forbes as candidates. Rmoney could have won the job of POTUS had he embodied any of the normal person qualities those people had. The richest guy in most smaller towns was the guy who owned the junkyard, now LKQ has taken that away by corporatizing it :(

brian breuer
11-21-2013, 10:42 AM
I'll shed light on part of the answer no one has mentioned yet. And it's the workforce participation rates, coupled with high unemployment rates. If the same number of people were counted in the workforce participation rate as they were in 2008, the unemployment rate would be above 15% today. But take a look at the demographics among young people. They aren't working. What we are about to witness, and really are beginning to witness already, is the product of extreme liberal indoctrination among out public education system. From Pre-K to College, kids have been conditioned to think a certain way. Progressive ideology has absolutely dominated academia for the past 30 years, and now we are beginning to bear the fruit of it.

Youth unemployment is sky high. Kids are waiting to get married. 45% of teens over the age of 16 DO NOT have a driver's license and rely on a parent to drive them places. Kids are living at home longer with their parents. Young adults are waiting longer to start families. This is the product of something isn't it???? Of course it is.

Progressive liberalism is killing this country. When people do not begin working hard when they are young, chances are, they aren't increasing their wealth like the hard working wealthy people in this country. The sense of entitlement has replaced American work ethic, especially in Americans from Generation X and younger. If you are under the age of 35, you are in this catagory. Kids today weren't raised believing in the same America the Baby Boomers were. They weren't raised with the same kind of work ethic either. They've been brought up within the progressive liberal academic institutions....aka...public schools and universities. They're brainwashed, and by and large, they're lazy.

Step back and view your masterpiece liberals, because this is what it looks like. High unemployment, massive government programs, massive debts, fewer jobs, and just general malcontent.

As an uncle to 10 recent college grads and current college students along with having 1-2 interns in the office each summer, I have a front row seat to the lives of college age young people. These are kids from middle class to lower middle class families. They've had summer jobs, waitresses, even joined the Air National Guard to pay for school. The amount of difficulty in finding entry level employment for a college grad is just amazing. When new grads are competing with people having 5-10 yrs experience for an entry level position. These aren't just BAs were talking. I am an engineer. Every one of the interns is an engineer. I've seen mechanical engineers and electricals look for work for over a year.

If you have any idea of what an engineering curriculum includes you know these people aren't afraid of work. It may be that there just aren't that many jobs.

You state kids are waiting to get married. They're living with mom and dad longer. Well no shit. Would you rather have getting hitched at the justice of the peace and then popping out kids of their own without a job to support it?

"The sense of entitlement has replaced American work ethic, especially in Americans from Generation X and younger. If you are under the age of 35, you are in this catagory. Kids today weren't raised believing in the same America the Baby Boomers were. "
Really???????? The baby boomer generation and its entitlements are the ones bankrupting this country. The lazy kids you speak of aren't old enough to be in Congress. Look in the mirror baby boomer.

zeus3925
11-21-2013, 12:21 PM
45% of teens over the age of 16 DO NOT have a driver's license and rely on a parent to drive them places. Kids are living at home longer with their parents. Young adults are waiting longer to start families. This is the product of something isn't it???? Of course it is.
.

If you have to buy car insurance for your teens then you know why.

zeus3925
11-21-2013, 12:26 PM
Ditto ! Good post..........
Ditto too! There is no reason to have a 73,000 page tax code, largely aimed at saving the 1% big bundles of money. Germany has a 500 page tax code, France 1000 page. We have a fiscal system that is driving the country to ruin.

road kill
11-21-2013, 12:30 PM
Ditto too! There is no reason to have a 73,000 page tax code, largely aimed at saving the 1% big bundles of money. Germany has a 500 page tax code, France 1000 page. We have a fiscal system that is driving the country to ruin.

Yeah.....if we could just be like France or Germany!!!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/carlynsonny4ever/Emotions/Shakinghead.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/carlynsonny4ever/media/Emotions/Shakinghead.gif.html)

zeus3925
11-21-2013, 12:34 PM
Yeah.....if we could just be like France or Germany!!!!!

73,000 pages is great? Is that what you are saying, RK?

mngundog
11-21-2013, 12:50 PM
The baby boomer generation and its entitlements are the ones bankrupting this country. The lazy kids you speak of aren't old enough to be in Congress. Look in the mirror baby boomer.
Think you nailed it.

http://thefunniestvideos.com/wp-content/uploads/mvbthumbs/img_5794_the-ricky-gervais-show-karl-pilkington-on-throwing-stones.jpg

Gerry Clinchy
11-21-2013, 01:13 PM
It occurs to me that he wouldn't think much of the current distribution of wealth.
We often talk about the distribution of wealth being so uneven ... the gap between richest and poorest being so large.

Have we thought about the fact that this situation has become ever larger during a period where govt regulations have become ever more prevalent? The more govt "plans" what is best for the "greater good", the larger the gap gets? The more politicians talk about "helping" the poor and the middle class, the more damage they do to both those groups ... and the rich get richer.

It is history to see that the gap between rich and poor in communist countries is just as bad, if not worse.

Have we really been brainwashed into thinking that we can make equal opportunity mean equal outcomes? As long as there is a normal curve, it would seem impossible to do that since there is variation in human intelligence, physical abilities, and mental attitudes.

For the record, I'm not rich.


Kids today weren't raised believing in the same America the Baby Boomers were. "

Really???????? The baby boomer generation and its entitlements are the ones bankrupting this country. The lazy kids you speak of aren't old enough to be in Congress. Look in the mirror baby boomer.
I think that the problem with the Baby Boomer generation is that they always wanted to make life easier for their kids than it was for them. I think that we don't realize until later that removing the "struggle" from achievement is not necessarily the answer.

I believe that the problem with many of our politicians is that they are career politicians. They have had too little exposure to what it means to struggle in the private sector to balance a budget, improve revenue through providing a better product (or service), of not having unlimited source of revenue (through taxes and borrowing). Could any private sector company survive or get more credit if their balance sheet looked like our Fed govt's?

We have created this situation of career politicians over time. Is that why the gap between rich and poor has become greater?

paul young
11-21-2013, 01:29 PM
We often talk about the distribution of wealth being so uneven ... the gap between richest and poorest being so large.

Have we thought about the fact that this situation has become ever larger during a period where govt regulations have become ever more prevalent? The more govt "plans" what is best for the "greater good", the larger the gap gets? The more politicians talk about "helping" the poor and the middle class, the more damage they do to both those groups ... and the rich get richer.

It is history to see that the gap between rich and poor in communist countries is just as bad, if not worse.

Have we really been brainwashed into thinking that we can make equal opportunity mean equal outcomes? As long as there is a normal curve, it would seem impossible to do that since there is variation in human intelligence, physical abilities, and mental attitudes.

For the record, I'm not rich.


I think that the problem with the Baby Boomer generation is that they always wanted to make life easier for their kids than it was for them. I think that we don't realize until later that removing the "struggle" from achievement is not necessarily the answer.

I believe that the problem with many of our politicians is that they are career politicians. They have had too little exposure to what it means to struggle in the private sector to balance a budget, improve revenue through providing a better product (or service), of not having unlimited source of revenue (through taxes and borrowing). Could any private sector company survive or get more credit if their balance sheet looked like our Fed govt's?

We have created this situation of career politicians over time. Is that why the gap between rich and poor has become greater?

I can summarize why the wealth gap is increasing at an increasing rate with 1 word- Lobbyists. Serving the people is WAY down the list of things to do for our Legislators and Executives.-Paul

Gerry Clinchy
11-21-2013, 01:36 PM
I can summarize why the wealth gap is increasing at an increasing rate with 1 word- Lobbyists. Serving the people is WAY down the list of things to do for our Legislators and Executives.-Paul
Agreed.

If all the money private sector spends on lobbying were, instead, spent on growing their businesses, improving their products, and pursuing innovations there might be more jobs for those engineers who can't find jobs?

zeus3925
11-21-2013, 01:39 PM
11.5 billion spent a year on lobbying is an indicator that some folks aren't taxed enough.

road kill
11-21-2013, 01:43 PM
11.5 billion spent a year on lobbying is an indicator that some folks aren't taxed enough.

Which folks?
How much is enough???

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb142/Hondo_0351/ROFLMAO.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Hondo_0351/media/ROFLMAO.jpg.html)

Henry V
11-21-2013, 02:20 PM
Responses in bold.....

We often talk about the distribution of wealth being so uneven ... the gap between richest and poorest being so large.
It is not just talk. Look at the data for the past 30 years. Have you ever thought how often the right wingers here talk about the "redistribution of wealth" and never seem to look at the data?. The right wing entertainment complex has you all stirred up about poor people getting food stamps while the military-industrial-energy-corporate complex takes more and more of the finite pie. There has been a very long trend and it is not going the way you all fear.

Have we thought about the fact that this situation has become ever larger during a period where govt regulations have become ever more prevalent? The more govt "plans" what is best for the "greater good", the larger the gap gets? The more politicians talk about "helping" the poor and the middle class, the more damage they do to both those groups ... and the rich get richer.Ok. I thought about it. While "over regulation" is a right wing talking point, can you give us any specific examples of the type of regulation that is increasing the wealth gap? If not, I call complete BS. During the 8 years of the Bush administration there were many regulation roll backs. Did that reverse the trend or increase it?

It is history to see that the gap between rich and poor in communist countries is just as bad, if not worse.
Please present some data on this

Have we really been brainwashed into thinking that we can make equal opportunity mean equal outcomes? As long as there is a normal curve, it would seem impossible to do that since there is variation in human intelligence, physical abilities, and mental attitudes.
Nice try at a diversion, but where is anyone here arguing for equal outcomes? No one. From my perspective, wealth consolidation is a problem for our economy. Most of us are in a race to the bottom whereas a tiny fraction of the population controls most of the wealth and income. 1% control more than a third of all investment assets, one-third of all wealth, and one-fifth of all income while the top 10% have almost 80% of all wealth. Really, the normal curve applies here? You are telling me that the rich are all smart and work hard? You better better do some more research.

For the record, I'm not rich.Me either and I do not envy them either

I think that the problem with the Baby Boomer generation is that they always wanted to make life easier for their kids than it was for them. I think that we don't realize until later that removing the "struggle" from achievement is not necessarily the answer.
Or maybe the baby boom generation also benefited a whole bunch from the largest expansion of government programs in the post WWII era (e.g. new schools, government R&D and technology, health care, social security, infrastructure investment, highway system, medicare, GI bill, etc, etc.)

I believe that the problem with many of our politicians is that they are career politicians. They have had too little exposure to what it means to struggle in the private sector to balance a budget, improve revenue through providing a better product (or service), of not having unlimited source of revenue (through taxes and borrowing). Could any private sector company survive or get more credit if their balance sheet looked like our Fed govt's?
Most all of them are millionaires or soon to be millionaires from private sector dollars. Limit terms and the lobbyists will truly take control.

We have created this situation of career politicians over time. Is that why the gap between rich and poor has become greater?No, it is not that simple. Above you said it was regulations too.

One of you can now play the "Class Warfare" card. Did I miss it somewhere before or are you all slipping? Maybe this is all the media's fault?

Marvin, nope, I have no solutions except to go back to some policies in place before this redistribution occurred. Maybe you have some ideas?

Henry V
11-21-2013, 02:25 PM
Which folks?
How much is enough???

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb142/Hondo_0351/ROFLMAO.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Hondo_0351/media/ROFLMAO.jpg.html)

Federal income taxes are at all time lows and US tax rates are lower than most industrial countries.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3151
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/if-corporate-profits-are-at-an-all-time-high-why-are-corporate-taxes-near-a-60-year-low/276164/

Oh yeah, these facts don't fit the delusion. I wonder where you get fed such nonsense - oh yeah that's easy http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/04/15/despite-historically-low-tax-burden-rove-fox-am/163306

road kill
11-21-2013, 02:36 PM
Federal income taxes are at all time lows and US tax rates are lower than most industrial countries.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3151
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/if-corporate-profits-are-at-an-all-time-high-why-are-corporate-taxes-near-a-60-year-low/276164/

Oh yeah, these facts don't fit the delusion. I wonder where you get fed such nonsense - oh yeah that's easy http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/04/15/despite-historically-low-tax-burden-rove-fox-am/163306Another reason is 47% ofyour peeps don't pay any taxes, lowering the average substantially!!

Again, I ask;


Which folks?
How much is enough???

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb142/Hondo_0351/ROFLMAO.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Hondo_0351/media/ROFLMAO.jpg.html)

zeus3925
11-21-2013, 02:39 PM
Which folks?
How much is enough???
[/URL]
I am not chasing chairman Mao here. What scares me about the influence in Washington is the monied interests are drowning out the voices of the rank and file citizenry. An example of the regard congress has for folks like you and me is letters to my congressman get a response six months later. If I were Cargill or Target or 3M, how long do you think a response would take? Maybe six minutes. When the citizens are drowned out by money you have an oligarchy, not democracy with a corrupt government to boot.

road kill
11-21-2013, 02:51 PM
I am not chasing chairman Mao here. What scares me about the influence in Washington is the monied interests are drowning out the voices of the rank and file citizenry. An example of the regard congress has for folks like you and me is letters to my congressman get a response six months later. If I were Cargill or Target or 3M, how long do you think a response would take? Maybe six minutes. When the citizens are drowned out by money you have an oligarchy, not democracy with a corrupt government to boot.

Silence insolant one.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h254/desertrat8419/silence.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/desertrat8419/media/silence.jpg.html)

road kill
11-21-2013, 03:34 PM
Are you trying to abridge my first amendment rights, Stan? If you want me to be silent, Suffer!

I guess my humor was wasted.
I was speaking on behalf or "The Man!!!"

My bad................think I will go have a P,B & J sammich!!!!

zeus3925
11-21-2013, 03:36 PM
I guess my humor was wasted.
I was speaking on behalf or "The Man!!!"

My bad................think I will go have a P,B & J sammich!!!!
Just don't try to gargle it.

Henry V
11-21-2013, 04:21 PM
Another reason is 47% ofyour peeps don't pay any taxes, lowering the average substantially!!

Again, I ask;

The 47% is now 43% and moving down http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2013/09/12/most-americans-do-indeed-pay-federal-taxes-including-the-poor/.

As I stated before, in my household, 50% of the workers do not pay taxes. Two sons in college do not earn enough and get all their federal taxes back. Damn freeloaders. How much should they pay?

Since you seem to envy those that do not pay federal income taxes, maybe you should get a low paying job, refinance a new 30 year mortgage, and live the high life :)

This may be of interest to some. http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2013/08/29/and-now-for-the-movie-fewer-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax/

road kill
11-21-2013, 05:25 PM
The 47% is now 43% and moving down http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2013/09/12/most-americans-do-indeed-pay-federal-taxes-including-the-poor/.

As I stated before, in my household, 50% of the workers do not pay taxes. Two sons in college do not earn enough and get all their federal taxes back. Damn freeloaders. How much should they pay?

Since you seem to envy those that do not pay federal income taxes, maybe you should get a low paying job, refinance a new 30 year mortgage, and live the high life :)

This may be of interest to some. http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2013/08/29/and-now-for-the-movie-fewer-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax/

I believe I will keep my highly lucrative position with the large multi-national corporation that employs me.
Keep my mortgage at $0.
Enjoy my kids success due to the education I paid for.
(they both pay taxes:D)

And watch my insurance get screwed thru no fault of my own.
And pay my fair share of taxes.

I believe I worked hard enough to get those things and enjoy and be proud of them.

Thanks!

Marvin S
11-21-2013, 08:47 PM
As an uncle to 10 recent college grads and current college students along with having 1-2 interns in the office each summer, I have a front row seat to the lives of college age young people. These are kids from middle class to lower middle class families. They've had summer jobs, waitresses, even joined the Air National Guard to pay for school. The amount of difficulty in finding entry level employment for a college grad is just amazing. When new grads are competing with people having 5-10 yrs experience for an entry level position. These aren't just BAs were talking. I am an engineer. Every one of the interns is an engineer. I've seen mechanical engineers and electricals look for work for over a year.

I spent my whole life as an engineer, have worked with many of them in their specialties, can only say "not all engineers are created equal".

I worked the missile sites for Boeing 50 years ago, our job was that of a glorified inspector. On a Saturday working overtime myself & another engineer would do 3 cans in 8 hours while the other crew of 3 did 2 cans in 10 hours, same checks. Needless to say there was not anyone on that site I would have hired at the going rate for engineers.


If you have any idea of what an engineering curriculum includes you know these people aren't afraid of work. It may be that there just aren't that many jobs.

The school I attended required 222 quarter hours for a Bachelors Degree. It was also proud of the fact that close to 70% of those who enrolled did not graduate from the school. The standard today is 180. & I would have to believe a prof that was too hard would be denied tenure. I had a gal working for me at Boeing, graduate of Cornell, a premier school. In the course of watching her work I noticed a deficiency in hydraulics (Mechanical major) & told my boss that if she passed hydraulics it was on her back. He checked & found it was an elective & she had chosen another course. Needless to say she was out of our group pronto. Schools today are not teaching the broad based curriculum of the past.


The baby boomer generation and its entitlements are the ones bankrupting this country. The lazy kids you speak of aren't old enough to be in Congress. Look in the mirror baby boomer.

I don't know what you classify as entitlements but will tell you this: Had the government (who you are an employee of) invested the money they took from us rather than running a Ponzi scheme there would be no issues. I know how much I put in & when, I also know what happened during those years to the country's economy, which I contributed to. I'm a little older than boomer but was subject to the draft, pulled out of a full ride scholarship to serve the country.

But I have read your posts on this forum about how wasteful the government agency where you draw your paycheck is. I think the retirement you will draw someday along with the other benefits is a bigger entitlement than any of the programs the boomers will receive.

brian breuer
11-22-2013, 11:49 AM
Not all engineers are created equal. Ever heard this one " what do you call the guy who graduates last from medical school? "doctor"

Absolutely, but that doesn't explain the near universal difficulty I've seen with new grads obtaining jobs. These are in the highly toted STEM fields. I don't have the first hand view of other fields but I can't image they are any better.

Yep, I work for the gov't. You got me. It also has nothing to do with my post. Never once have I said the gov't is the savior, efficient or effective. I think even part of my post was referencing the inefficiencies of gov't (entitlements).


I just get REALLY tired of bashing the younger generation. The kids haven't had time to screw anything up. The old farts really need to take off the rose colored glasses and look in the mirror.

The "when I was a kid, pull my self up, snow uphill both ways blah blah blah" is tired and weak and most often doesn't stand up to the facts.

The truth is the young adults are dealing with 10 yrs of economic stagnant growth, high unemployment, and even higher under employment, and out of control spending. Seems like a lot of blame to lay on a group that has gotten to vote a total of once.

Marvin S
11-22-2013, 02:41 PM
I just get REALLY tired of bashing the younger generation. The kids haven't had time to screw anything up. The old farts really need to take off the rose colored glasses and look in the mirror.

The "when I was a kid, pull my self up, snow uphill both ways blah blah blah" is tired and weak and most often doesn't stand up to the facts.

The truth is the young adults are dealing with 10 yrs of economic stagnant growth, high unemployment, and even higher under employment, and out of control spending. Seems like a lot of blame to lay on a group that has gotten to vote a total of once.

The Younger generation being bashed are not the STEM folks. You have to realize, as some of us do, that the MSM only deals with sensationalism. We have 9 Grandkids, all of whom are expected to be contributors in their field of choice to society, if I caught one of them doing OWS I would personally discuss it with them.

In Seattle, AKA San Fancisco North, the citizenry just elected a full blown Socialist over a 16 year council veteran who was not quite green enough. Her pedigree, an immigrant from India who now teaches economics at a local JC. She believes Boeing should be a public entity so the workers can get a larger slice of the pie. As the folks in Latin America are finding out with their tin pot dictators, that pie only exists because there was an incentive to create it. & as the folks in Europe are going to find out, OPM soon runs away or disappears.

I don't think the responsible people bash the young, I know we certainly do not, but I will say "because of what they are being taught one has to exercise oversight of what is going into their mind". We have a Grandson presently serving his military obligation who very much impressed me with his knowledge of civics, which he learned as part of a debate team in HS. So not all young folks are being left out, just that too many are. The question being: Do those who recognize the problem have enough influence over what happens to make it happen with the masses or will it be another program that only benefits a small group - while the larger group that could use the same help are passed over?

BTW - I was just elected a council man in our little city - we are badly in need of a Public Works Director capable of doing required most phases of the Comprehensive Plan which includes (Storm Water, Potable Water, Streets, WW treatment & Parks), a majority of the city's engineering requirements including adequate record keeping & adequately supervising what I hope to be a smaller staff. Also capable of reviewing necessary operations to deliver the most efficient product at the optimum cost, changing FT to PT as the needs are accessed.

I have to convince the other 6 council members that this is a good thing or at least 3 of them to get it started. If anybody in your group of job hunters has that ability have them contact me & I will make sure they are aware of what transpires from my efforts to privatize more of the city's operations. Because of what I had done prior to graduating, I was just about shovel ready when I got out of school. I'm sure there are folks out there as capable as I was that could do this smoothly & they would have very secure & satisfying employment as the competition in most of these city's is certainly not at the level I experienced at Boeing. The opportunities for some one capable of succeeding in a meritocratic environment are limitless.

luvmylabs23139
11-23-2013, 10:18 AM
11.5 billion spent a year on lobbying is an indicator that some folks aren't taxed enough.

Give me a break. How about we start taxing everyone rather than actually giving people money at tax time. I'm talkimg refundable credits which is redistribution!

luvmylabs23139
11-23-2013, 10:39 AM
If you have to buy car insurance for your teens then you know why.

Uh, how about the kid paying their own car insurance? Back in the day you got discounts for driver ed and even more important your grades. Way back when, besides the Driver ed, my dad required we get the grade requirement. HIS requirement for paying meant honors courses and grades no skating with a lower level class. High school classes were weighted from 1-4. Everyone was required to pass a few 2 level classes for graduation but other than that no taking the easy way out.

luvmylabs23139
11-23-2013, 10:46 AM
I am not chasing chairman Mao here. What scares me about the influence in Washington is the monied interests are drowning out the voices of the rank and file citizenry. An example of the regard congress has for folks like you and me is letters to my congressman get a response six months later. If I were Cargill or Target or 3M, how long do you think a response would take? Maybe six minutes. When the citizens are drowned out by money you have an oligarchy, not democracy with a corrupt government to boot.

My DUM senatpr repsonds but with a pile of garbage telling me I should be happy to pay 6 grand more per year for less.

luvmylabs23139
11-23-2013, 10:55 AM
Agreed.

If all the money private sector spends on lobbying were, instead, spent on growing their businesses, improving their products, and pursuing innovations there might be more jobs for those engineers who can't find jobs?

The uemployment rate for a degreed engineer is less than 4%. Taxpayers are being forced to pay for garbage degrees that mean nothing.

caryalsobrook
11-23-2013, 08:03 PM
The 47% is now 43% and moving down http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2013/09/12/most-americans-do-indeed-pay-federal-taxes-including-the-poor/.

As I stated before, in my household, 50% of the workers do not pay taxes. Two sons in college do not earn enough and get all their federal taxes back. Damn freeloaders. How much should they pay?

Since you seem to envy those that do not pay federal income taxes, maybe you should get a low paying job, refinance a new 30 year mortgage, and live the high life :)

This may be of interest to some. http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2013/08/29/and-now-for-the-movie-fewer-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax/

Anyone who doesns't make enough money to pay income tax should never have a mortgage MUCH LESS a 30 year mortgage. Yes that is the high life and are those that expect for someone else to pull the wagon while they ride in it.

Anyone who can't make enough money in 3 months of the summer to pay income tax should NOT be in college. If they have to work 6 months and go to college 6 months, so be it. As I said everybody can't ride in the wagon, somebody has to pull it.

HuntClub
11-24-2013, 09:32 AM
Ah yes, when was it that the American dream became the "Great American Basic Human Right".

Buzz
11-24-2013, 12:56 PM
Ah yes, when was it that the American dream became the "Great American Basic Human Right".


What does this have to do with the topic of the original post? What is your definition of the American Dream?

caryalsobrook
11-25-2013, 07:42 AM
What does this have to do with the topic of the original post? What is your definition of the American Dream?

American Dream? I wanted to live where I chose. I wanted to work for who I chose. I wanted to raise my child as I chose. I wanted to worship as I chose. It never occurred to me to blame my neighbor for my failures, whether the had wealth of 100 cents or 100 million. To be sure these freedoms come at a high price. You cannot blame someone else for your failures and you will bear the consequences of your own failures. The current government is doing everything it can to eliminate these freedoms and the American Dream I was able to live.

mjh345
11-25-2013, 12:28 PM
American Dream? I wanted to live where I chose. I wanted to work for who I chose. I wanted to raise my child as I chose. I wanted to worship as I chose. It never occurred to me to blame my neighbor for my failures, whether the had wealth of 100 cents or 100 million. To be sure these freedoms come at a high price. You cannot blame someone else for your failures and you will bear the consequences of your own failures. The current government is doing everything it can to eliminate these freedoms and the American Dream I was able to live.

Sad but true. The loss of individualism and the ever growing nanny state mentality is a trip down the wrong path IMHO

Henry V
11-25-2013, 09:56 PM
Anyone who doesns't make enough money to pay income tax should never have a mortgage MUCH LESS a 30 year mortgage. Yes that is the high life and are those that expect for someone else to pull the wagon while they ride in it.
You seem to have missed the point. If you want lower taxes, take a job that makes a lot less money and get more deductions....live the high life with a higher effective tax rate.


Anyone who can't make enough money in 3 months of the summer to pay income tax should NOT be in college. If they have to work 6 months and go to college 6 months, so be it. As I said everybody can't ride in the wagon, somebody has to pull it.
Do the math. 40 hours a week, $10 an hour = you pay no taxes and probably never would have for the past 30 years. I guess the fact that most college student now carry an average of $30,000 in student loans is because they are all much lazier than previous generations. No one riding in the wagon here. By the way, how are your farm subsidies this year?

Henry V
11-25-2013, 10:07 PM
American Dream? I wanted to live where I chose. I wanted to work for who I chose. I wanted to raise my child as I chose. I wanted to worship as I chose. It never occurred to me to blame my neighbor for my failures, whether the had wealth of 100 cents or 100 million. To be sure these freedoms come at a high price. You cannot blame someone else for your failures and you will bear the consequences of your own failures. The current government is doing everything it can to eliminate these freedoms and the American Dream I was able to live.
What a load of defeatist B.S. What the heck is stopping you from living, working, worshiping, or raising you children how you choose today any more than anytime in the past? Please be specific.

caryalsobrook
11-26-2013, 07:00 AM
You seem to have missed the point. If you want lower taxes, take a job that makes a lot less money and get more deductions....live the high life with a higher effective tax rate.


Do the math. 40 hours a week, $10 an hour = you pay no taxes and probably never would have for the past 30 years. I guess the fact that most college student now carry an average of $30,000 in student loans is because they are all much lazier than previous generations. No one riding in the wagon here. By the way, how are your farm subsidies this year?

I think YOU need to do the math. In 1976 I was a self employed dentist working for the state. $18,000/year. YOU do the math, less than your $10/hr. I had no vacation or benefits and had to pay all the SS tax, about 12% I think but not sure. I have already posted what it was like working for the state. THEN I paid income tax. Granted, I had no debt, credit card, car payment, or student loans.

Now for student loans. 3/4th of those that GRADUATE with more than $14,000 in student loans are either late or have defaulted on their student loans. And that does not take into consideration those that DON'T graduate. Now the most rediculous thing you said. do I think kids of today are lazy? Hell no.I actually love to hire young people. they don't scoff at 10/hr,AND MOST WANT TO LEARN! They are just wet behind the ears and need guidance. Not the guidance of IDIOT parents who would even ALLOW them to sign up for student loans but also the college advisers and government bureaucrats who encourage them. Little do those kids know what the consequences of doing so are. they can never take bankrupcy on the student loans, and they have no idea of the RISK in going to college. Take a look at Buzz's post. Don't you believe he is willing to do what it takes to see that his child WILL NEVER HAVE A STUDENT LOAN?

If I were a parent and had no funds to help pay for a child's college, I would tell them to buy a $2,000(can pay for it in 2 months) car, wait tables or deliver pizza(those make $11/hr plus tips) and NO CREDIT CARDS. Work a year and THEN go to college a year. Yes that takes 8 years instead of 4 to get a college education, but is a hell of a lot better than student loans.

caryalsobrook
11-26-2013, 07:22 AM
What a load of defeatist B.S. What the heck is stopping you from living, working, worshiping, or raising you children how you choose today any more than anytime in the past? Please be specific.

I was talking about the Single Employer System(some like to call it Single Payer), the end result of the ACA. If you still believe that it is BS that the government can not tell you where to live and how to treat if it is the only employer allowed, then let me know and I will explain it to you.

Henry V
11-26-2013, 09:24 AM
I was talking about the Single Employer System(some like to call it Single Payer), the end result of the ACA. If you still believe that it is BS that the government can not tell you where to live and how to treat if it is the only employer allowed, then let me know and I will explain it to you.

you have it exactly wrong. If we had gone to universal coverage via single payer that would provide people more freedom to change jobs, move, etc. The current system of employer provided insurance puts far too much power in the hands of employers which restricts the entrepreneurial spirit and freedom to change jobs.

caryalsobrook
11-26-2013, 09:34 AM
you have it exactly wrong. If we had gone to universal coverage via single payer that would provide people more freedom to change jobs, move, etc. The current system of employer provided insurance puts far too much power in the hands of employers which restricts the entrepreneurial spirit and freedom to change jobs.

what about the doctors?

Henry V
11-26-2013, 09:45 AM
I think YOU need to do the math. In 1976 I was a self employed dentist working for the state. $18,000/year. YOU do the math, less than your $10/hr. .
okay, I did the math. $18,000 in 1971 is equivalent to $104,000 today. it's really too bad that you had to pay taxes back then. There is no comparison to a college student today making $10 an hour for 3 months.

caryalsobrook
11-26-2013, 09:58 AM
okay, I did the math. $18,000 in 1971 is equivalent to $104,000 today. it's really too bad that you had to pay taxes back then. There is no comparison to a college student today making $10 an hour for 3 months.
"You do the math 40/wk $10/hr 18,000 AND YOU PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE PAID INCOME TAX 30 YEARS AGO" Your words NOT MINE!

caryalsobrook
11-26-2013, 12:46 PM
you have it exactly wrong. If we had gone to universal coverage via single payer that would provide people more freedom to change jobs, move, etc. The current system of employer provided insurance puts far too much power in the hands of employers which restricts the entrepreneurial spirit and freedom to change jobs.

No You have it exactly wrong. First, calling it a single payer system in an outright lie. MILLIONS OF TAX PAYERS are paying it. It is in FACT a Single Employer system. A patient cannot legally hire a doctor to provide services that he chooses and a doctor cannot work for a patient for reimbursement. Second, there is no law stopping you from changing jobs. You may find a job that you like the pay but not the health insurance. Or you may find a job that you like the health insurance but not the pay. Why you think that a Single Employer System would restrict employer power is beyond me. Employers hire people to make money from their labor. They could care less if the pay is in the form of salary or in benefits. Their desire is to structure salary and benefits such that it will attract labor from which they can make a profit. The taxes to pay from the system comes from those who pay the taxes and that includes the employers. If you think simply creating a Single Employer System won't affect the salaries and taxes a company pays, you have no clue. As to restricting the entrepreneurial spirit, only the government does that.

When I chose a path to work for myself and live where I choose, there were costs. I KNEW there would be no overtime pay, no minimum salary, no vacation, sick leave or workman's compensation. I knew it would take 10 years after college, with no house, no marriage, no kids, and only saving as much as I could as fast as I could. When I graduated from dental school at the age of 36, I did not owe anything nor have two nickels to rub together but I had gotten married. I had paid the price to be able to work for myself and live where I chose. It did not however guarantee me a certain income.

Now you think that Employers have more power. Well they have no more power than they ever had. Now you are not satisfied with the choice you made. Well you still have the same choice you had when you decided to work for a company. You just don't like the choice you made.

You also mentioned farm subsities. You evidently missed my post eliminating the Dept. of Agriculture. I don't like them any more than you do. Get rid of all of them and I would be happy. But there is no way one can compete when the government gives money to my competitors and not me. By the way, you can type in my name with "farm subsity" then I can tell you how the figures are not the truth.

shinyhead
11-26-2013, 05:46 PM
"Little do those kids know what the consequences of doing so are. they can never take bankrupcy on the student loans, and they have no idea of the RISK in going to college." caryalsobrook
This is simply not true. You can in fact file chapter 7 bankruptcy on student loans. You just can't do for 10 years from your last payment or last deferrment. You will be in default and they will take any tax refund you might get, but bankruptcy is a possibility after a long wait. It also reflects negatively on your credit report as well while you are in default. After the bankruptcy, no problems at all. You cnnot, however, file bankruptcy on income taxes that you owe.

luvmylabs23139
11-26-2013, 06:01 PM
You seem to have missed the point. If you want lower taxes, take a job that makes a lot less money and get more deductions....live the high life with a higher effective tax rate.


Do the math. 40 hours a week, $10 an hour = you pay no taxes and probably never would have for the past 30 years. I guess the fact that most college student now carry an average of $30,000 in student loans is because they are all much lazier than previous generations. No one riding in the wagon here. By the way, how are your farm subsidies this year?

Hate to tell you but I paid both state and federal income taxes when I made less than $20800 per year. That was less then 30 years ago!

luvmylabs23139
11-26-2013, 06:08 PM
okay, I did the math. $18,000 in 1971 is equivalent to $104,000 today. it's really too bad that you had to pay taxes back then. There is no comparison to a college student today making $10 an hour for 3 months.
Well your math is wrong. Standard work hours is 2080!

mngundog
11-26-2013, 06:26 PM
Well your math is wrong. Standard work hours is 2080!

His math is right (rounded) using an cumulative rate of inflation of 474.7, don't know why you would be using 2080, makes no sense.

luvmylabs23139
11-26-2013, 07:06 PM
His math is right (rounded) using an cumulative rate of inflation of 474.7, don't know why you would be using 2080, makes no sense.

He said $10 per hour was 18K. Standard work hours for a 40 hr week is 2080. So it should be $20800.
At a 37 1/2 hr week it would be $19500.

mngundog
11-26-2013, 07:31 PM
He said $10 per hour was 18K. Standard work hours for a 40 hr week is 2080. So it should be $20800.
At a 37 1/2 hr week it would be $19500.
You need to read his posts before you reply and say he is wrong.

caryalsobrook
11-26-2013, 07:40 PM
"Little do those kids know what the consequences of doing so are. they can never take bankrupcy on the student loans, and they have no idea of the RISK in going to college." caryalsobrook
This is simply not true. You can in fact file chapter 7 bankruptcy on student loans. You just can't do for 10 years from your last payment or last deferrment. You will be in default and they will take any tax refund you might get, but bankruptcy is a possibility after a long wait. It also reflects negatively on your credit report as well while you are in default. After the bankruptcy, no problems at all. You cnnot, however, file bankruptcy on income taxes that you owe.
I had been told that one could not take bankruptcy on student loans. I did search the web and what I found was that it could be taken under the bruner law established in NY. Generally it said that you must have made an honest attempt in the past to repay the loan and given your income and expenses, undue hardship would occur for a long period of time. No 10 year time period was mentioned. One thing seems clear though and that is once bankruptcy has been taken and all other debts have been discharged, one would have a difficult getting any, much less all the student loans discharged if they had any income at all.

shinyhead
11-26-2013, 08:38 PM
I had been told that one could not take bankruptcy on student loans. I did search the web and what I found was that it could be taken under the bruner law established in NY. Generally it said that you must have made an honest attempt in the past to repay the loan and given your income and expenses, undue hardship would occur for a long period of time. No 10 year time period was mentioned. One thing seems clear though and that is once bankruptcy has been taken and all other debts have been discharged, one would have a difficult getting any, much less all the student loans discharged if they had any income at all.

You will have to believe me on this one. My personal situation, several years ago was bleak. Barely making it on the salary I was pulling in. I had to decide to pay rent and buy food or pay student loans. I chose to survive and sacrifice my tax refund since they (student loan agency) wouldn't give me deferrments, I defaulted and quit paying them all together. Had a drunk driver t-bone me and racked up some serious medical bills. My employer sut down operations and I was out of a job. I fully expected the attorney to tell me that I could discharge all my debts except my student loans. Much to my surprise, he said I could discharge all of my debts, including the student loans. I had a minimum wage job when I went to see the attorney and he said no problem. Filed chapter 7, all debts gone. Not proud of it, but I just thought I'd let you know from first hand experience that student loans can be discharged. Unfortunately, many young folks will fall into the same trap that I did. "guaranteed" student loans with low interest rates and payments affordable. don't believe it. they want their money just like a bank. you borrowed this much, and this is your payment. so the information they give the young kid trying to use the student loans to pay for their education is simply not true. It is deception at it's finest.

caryalsobrook
11-26-2013, 11:02 PM
You will have to believe me on this one. My personal situation, several years ago was bleak. Barely making it on the salary I was pulling in. I had to decide to pay rent and buy food or pay student loans. I chose to survive and sacrifice my tax refund since they (student loan agency) wouldn't give me deferrments, I defaulted and quit paying them all together. Had a drunk driver t-bone me and racked up some serious medical bills. My employer sut down operations and I was out of a job. I fully expected the attorney to tell me that I could discharge all my debts except my student loans. Much to my surprise, he said I could discharge all of my debts, including the student loans. I had a minimum wage job when I went to see the attorney and he said no problem. Filed chapter 7, all debts gone. Not proud of it, but I just thought I'd let you know from first hand experience that student loans can be discharged. Unfortunately, many young folks will fall into the same trap that I did. "guaranteed" student loans with low interest rates and payments affordable. don't believe it. they want their money just like a bank. you borrowed this much, and this is your payment. so the information they give the young kid trying to use the student loans to pay for their education is simply not true. It is deception at it's finest.

I believe they would call your case "undue hardship". We actually have the same opinion concerning student loans and you summed it up in your last sentence. "It is deception at it's finest."

Henry V
11-27-2013, 12:32 AM
Well your math is wrong. Standard work hours is 2080!

Nope. Read my posts. I said work 3 months at $10 an hour for 3 months and you do not have to pay federal income taxes.

I also looked at a website that calculates what 18,000 in 1971 is equivalent to in 2013 dollars. It is $104,000. In re reading the posts, I should have done the math for 1976. In 1976, 18,000 was equivalent to $74,000. Someone else compared this to making $10 an hour today. $10 an hour today is equivalent to making $2.44 an hour back in 1976.

Henry V
11-27-2013, 12:47 AM
responses below.
No You have it exactly wrong. First, calling it a single payer system in an outright lie. MILLIONS OF TAX PAYERS are paying it. It is in FACT a Single Employer system. A patient cannot legally hire a doctor to provide services that he chooses and a doctor cannot work for a patient for reimbursement. Second, there is no law stopping you from changing jobs. You may find a job that you like the pay but not the health insurance. Or you may find a job that you like the health insurance but not the pay. Why you think that a Single Employer System would restrict employer power is beyond me. Employers hire people to make money from their labor. They could care less if the pay is in the form of salary or in benefits. Their desire is to structure salary and benefits such that it will attract labor from which they can make a profit. The taxes to pay from the system comes from those who pay the taxes and that includes the employers. If you think simply creating a Single Employer System won't affect the salaries and taxes a company pays, you have no clue. As to restricting the entrepreneurial spirit, only the government does that.
What I know is that every other industrialized country has what you originally called a "single payer" system. By all accounts, they have better health outcomes and spend half what we do per capita and much less of a percentage of gdp as the US does on health care. People and employers in those countries do not have to worry much about health care. I know quite a few people who do not change jobs or start their own businesses because they need the benefits in their current jobs.

When I chose a path to work for myself and live where I choose, there were costs. I KNEW there would be no overtime pay, no minimum salary, no vacation, sick leave or workman's compensation. I knew it would take 10 years after college, with no house, no marriage, no kids, and only saving as much as I could as fast as I could. When I graduated from dental school at the age of 36, I did not owe anything nor have two nickels to rub together but I had gotten married. I had paid the price to be able to work for myself and live where I chose. It did not however guarantee me a certain income.
I have no idea how this is relevant to this discussion. Earlier you send the ACA would have restricted your freedom, you still have not explained how.
Now you think that Employers have more power. Well they have no more power than they ever had. Now you are not satisfied with the choice you made. Well you still have the same choice you had when you decided to work for a company. You just don't like the choice you made.
I love the jobs that I have had. I have no idea what you are talking about.
You also mentioned farm subsities. You evidently missed my post eliminating the Dept. of Agriculture. I don't like them any more than you do. Get rid of all of them and I would be happy. But there is no way one can compete when the government gives money to my competitors and not me. By the way, you can type in my name with "farm subsity" then I can tell you how the figures are not the truth.So what are you doing to get rid of farm subsidies?

caryalsobrook
11-27-2013, 06:54 AM
responses below.

I can't get this thing to copy your post so due to memory I will have to take it in parts. About subsidies, I told you how to look up my history and we could discuss it. You have chosen not to. I have removed all my land from CRP which is considered a subsidy. If you want to know how, ask. I have no crop insurance, nor have I ever collected on it. It is impossible to figure out what if any is a subsidy or how much it is. One just takes the checks and deposits them. I would GLADLY give up the subsidy and ALSO THE STRINGS ATTACHED, but the man who farms my land could not compete with other farmers. He would have to quit farming my land.

3/4ths of those with have student loans greater than $14,000 are either delinquent or in default. WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO GET RID OF STUDENT LOANS????I at least say that farm subsidies are wrong. When are you going to admit that student loans are wrong and are also nothing more than a subsidy??

road kill
11-27-2013, 07:00 AM
Pretty amazing to watch the progressives talk out of both sides of their collective mouths!!!!


The economy is improving & BOOMING, unemployment is at a tolerable rate, yet everyone is in dire straits and needs a nipple (Gov't program) to suckle!!!

Which is it?

caryalsobrook
11-27-2013, 07:45 AM
responses below.

The term "single payer" is a lie at the worst and propaganda at best. I am sure that in the past I have used the term "single payer" for fear that many would not know what I meant should I use the accurate term "single employer". I have explained these terms to you and you evidently prefer the lie "single payer". I will leave it to others to assume the reasons you do so.

The industrialized countries you speak of with Single Employer systems have experienced a GDP growth rate of about 1% in the last 10 years. Not enough to even maintain the standard of living with normal population growth. Talk about poor outcomes.

You talk about the "cost of healthcare as a % of GDP". Buzz posted a graph showing this very thing, thinking as you that it supported government control of healthcare. He just missed the FACT that the entry of the government into healthcare with Medicare and Medicaid, was the cause. I mean no disrespect challenging him to post the graph again but I do admit it does make me smile.:)

You talk about cost vs. outcome. I personally have had patients in the past from both W. Germany and England who sought treatment, because they could not get the treatment they wanted in their system, nor could they pay for it. Since those countries did not perform those procedures, THEY NEVER HAD A POOR OUTCOME RELATED TO THOSE PROCEDURES. Does that make sense to you?

Let me give you a more personal example and one that is applicable here. My brother in law, retired from the Army, had a bridge fail. When he went to the VA for treatment, expecting a root canal and another bridge, he was told that "WE DON'T DO THAT HERE". Since he thought he could "get treatment", from the VA, he had not gotten a private dentist since I retired. Needless to say I got a call. "Where do I go. Who will see me? I am in PAIN. HELP!!!! I pulled a favor from a friend and had him call in a script fro an antibiotic and pain medicine, something he would never do normally, not knowing the patient. They drove up and because I asked, he saw him the next day for treatment. HE PAID and was glad to. He received treatment he could not get at the VA, let alone in the countries you mention. Never fear, the VA had ZERO poor outcomes for that particular treatment, BECAUSE THEY DON'T PROVIDE IT!!

caryalsobrook
11-27-2013, 07:58 AM
When will you understand that salaries +benefits are the employers' cost of labor? They could care less whether it was 100% salary or 100% benefits. Their only goal is to offer a mix that will attract those employees they desire.

I once had a person tell me that "he would quit if he could find a job that paid more". Well whoop-te-doo, I would sell my corn to someone who would pay me more than the market price!

Mikegillam
11-27-2013, 10:31 AM
An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...

road kill
11-27-2013, 10:39 AM
An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...

So, who is the largest employer in the USA today?

BTW---more people have degrees today than ever before.
We also obviously have more poverty.
Welfare at all time highs.
Food stamps growing exponentially.
Though the published UE rate is low, more people in the USA than ever NOT working.
How does one reconcile this?

mngundog
11-27-2013, 11:01 AM
An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...
If you break your food into small pieces it will help you feel full, as for low wages try chewing gum.

Franco
11-27-2013, 11:27 AM
An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example... Those corporations that can afford the best lobbyist, win. That's because they get to write the laws and Tax Code that gives them that unfair advantage. The only way to level the playing field and a return to fair pay is to return to real Capitalism and Free Markets. That means limiting the government by ending lobbying and corporate campaign contributions. If a sub-committee has questions regarding future legislation, they can call in professionals from that industry to testify in front of the sub-committee and not in some private backroom. In regards to Walmart, the last I checked, they provide jobs. If people don't like what they are paying, they are free to find another employer. Wages should be determined by the Free Market and not artificially via a minimum wage.

Mikegillam
11-27-2013, 11:40 AM
The largest employer in the US is Walmart. I agree that poverty is rising, I feel some of the reasons being our underemployed (which includes suburban poverty which is at all time highs), expiring unemployment benefits, etc...Since poverty is directly tied to unemployment, it is a given increase due to the economy. According to the Georgetown Center on Poverty, poverty among those 65 and older are at historically low levels, mainly due to Social Security payments.

Yes, college degrees are at all time highs, rising about 4% from the late 90s. Those rates were pretty stagnant from the early 70s until now. I think that degrees will increase as technology reliance increases and the job market continues to change.

Franco
11-27-2013, 11:45 AM
This is the best story I've read on Walmart wages. http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/11/27/why-do-1-4-million-americans-work-at-walmart-with-many-more-trying-to/

caryalsobrook
11-27-2013, 12:11 PM
An interesting conversation...I think we all know there is no easy answer(s) on how to get things "on track". It is not as easy as, go work hard, you will be able to make a decent living. Of course, that depends on everyones definition of a decent living. It is not as easy as, locating and then sending illegals back to their home country (with or without their citizen children), since American companies will just go to their home country for lower wage workers and products that seem to increase in costs. I do guess that is part of a free world economy. We are all part of and reliant on the government for services, no one in this country does not utilize or work for government/government services, whether it be police, fire, medicare, etc...What we do know is that corporate and CEO incomes are at record levels, while wages are not even close to keeping pace. Is that the right of the corporation/ceo? Well, of course. I feel the question is, do we develop solutions that are best for corporations or everyone as an individualists or the country as a whole (balance of all of the above). We do know that the best way out of poverty/social development is education. This is especially true as we look to our society as it will be in the future, not as it was in the past. We know that many of our future jobs are not even in existence today, thanks to technology. According to the latest stats, 60% of jobs in 2018 will require a college degree. In 2011, 66% of high school graduates attended college and 59% of those graduated within 6 years. On the surface, seems like we are in the ball park. As we know, many are graduating from college with incredibly high loans that will impact them for years beyond graduation. Obviously, that is one of the costs of getting to college, when you are from a family that is not able to save the $20,000+ it costs. The high costs of 4 year schools is one of leading reasons for the the growth in 2 year community colleges (not a bad thing). We could go to work for a year, go to college for a year, work for a year, etc...and while that is a solution, I don't know that it is a workable solution for the masses. As a community, helping parents understand/learn methods and the importance of saving for college would help. As we all know, people who come from educated families or families with wealth, tend to stay/improve that status, and those who come from poverty/undereducated tend to stay in that status. My experience is that those with the background know how to navigate the systems, financial aide, college investments, connections, etc... and those who have no experience don't know what/how to do. One of the big reasons we have a culture of poverty, or wealth, depending on your background. Is it the government or societies place to help this segment of our society? Maybe only if we want all of our communities to improve. I do feel, that we will not improve as a society, if our biggest employers continue to amass incredible wealth, while those who are the reason for the wealth continue to survive in poverty. I brought up the point of CEO making their massive salaries, and I feel in most cases they should be earning large salaries. However, should they be making 1200 times the salary of their workers? Should our largest employer in the country, with 1.3 million jobs in the US (2.2 worldwide), pay their average worker an average of $8.81 and hour which translates to $15,576 a year, assuming 34 hours per week, 52 weeks a year? For a family of four, the 2010 poverty rate is $20,050. In 2010 the CEO made 18.7 million dollars in compensation. Can they do it? Obviously, they do. Is it right? Is it best for the country as we are trying to put people to work and help people to a "better" way of life? Not picking on Walmart, but since they are in the news and do make for a great example...

My father had a 10th grade education(at least we know he made it to the 10th grade). My mother had a high school education. I have a Dental degree, one sister has a Masters in Economics, the other a Masters in English. No SBA loans, 1st time home buyers loans, food stamps, rent subsidy, and above all NO STUDENT LOANS!! Took me 10 years to save the money, take the required courses for admission and graduate. Took desire, determination, decipline, perseverance and patience. Was that for the masses? Of course not. the masses choose to get married, buy a house, a new shiny car and have kids, along with credit cards, I might add. Do I condemn those choices, of course not. But don't expect to make such choices and then complain for lack of opportunity of education without others paying for it. Don't expect sympathy for those who lack those qualities above when they do not have the resulting benefits.

Don't you think those who make $8/hr, $100/hr or even $1000/hr would choose a better pay if there was one available? They make what they make because no one is willing to pay them more. Do you REALLY believe that forcing CEO's to make less, will result in greater pay for those who make less? Do you think that a company would pay a CEO 18 mill if it thought it could pay 10 mill and STILL be just as profitable? Given the labor market, a company pays each employee from the CEO to the janitor that salary which will maximize profits. As a consumer, neither you nor I could care less. I demand is that they produce goods and services at a competitive price. I assume you like I shop for the cheapest price when we purchase a good or service.

As a result of the recession, the current administration encouraged those who lost their jobs to go to college for a better job. Well 40% of those who ACTUALLY GRADUATED in 2010 and got a job, got one that required NO COLLEGE EDUCATION. Now most are saddled with student loans and a job they could have had anyway. I think one would call that a bad choice.

road kill
11-27-2013, 12:29 PM
The largest employer in the US is Walmart. I agree that poverty is rising, I feel some of the reasons being our underemployed (which includes suburban poverty which is at all time highs), expiring unemployment benefits, etc...Since poverty is directly tied to unemployment, it is a given increase due to the economy. According to the Georgetown Center on Poverty, poverty among those 65 and older are at historically low levels, mainly due to Social Security payments.

Yes, college degrees are at all time highs, rising about 4% from the late 90s. Those rates were pretty stagnant from the early 70s until now. I think that degrees will increase as technology reliance increases and the job market continues to change.
No it is not.

Check again.

And as far as outrageous executive level pay............those lobbyists give gifts and money and insider info (that we can't get) to the people who run the largest employers in the USA.

Federal, State and Local Governments!

The Civil Service employs 2,000,000 alone, not counting the Post Office!!!

paul young
11-27-2013, 03:25 PM
My father had a 10th grade education(at least we know he made it to the 10th grade). My mother had a high school education. I have a Dental degree, one sister has a Masters in Economics, the other a Masters in English. No SBA loans, 1st time home buyers loans, food stamps, rent subsidy, and above all NO STUDENT LOANS!! Took me 10 years to save the money, take the required courses for admission and graduate. Took desire, determination, decipline, perseverance and patience. Was that for the masses? Of course not. the masses choose to get married, buy a house, a new shiny car and have kids, along with credit cards, I might add. Do I condemn those choices, of course not. But don't expect to make such choices and then complain for lack of opportunity of education without others paying for it. Don't expect sympathy for those who lack those qualities above when they do not have the resulting benefits.

Don't you think those who make $8/hr, $100/hr or even $1000/hr would choose a better pay if there was one available? They make what they make because no one is willing to pay them more. Do you REALLY believe that forcing CEO's to make less, will result in greater pay for those who make less? Do you think that a company would pay a CEO 18 mill if it thought it could pay 10 mill and STILL be just as profitable? Given the labor market, a company pays each employee from the CEO to the janitor that salary which will maximize profits. As a consumer, neither you nor I could care less. I demand is that they produce goods and services at a competitive price. I assume you like I shop for the cheapest price when we purchase a good or service.

As a result of the recession, the current administration encouraged those who lost their jobs to go to college for a better job. Well 40% of those who ACTUALLY GRADUATED in 2010 and got a job, got one that required NO COLLEGE EDUCATION. Now most are saddled with student loans and a job they could have had anyway. I think one would call that a bad choice.

I would love to see you get thru Pre-Med and Dental school without incurring debt today.....or even 10 years ago,for that matter.

I put myself thru a 4 year State university 1970-1975 working part time jobs during the school year and working a full time job plus a part time job in the summers. That simply can't be done today, even ata State university, which is the least expensive way to go. You need to stop living in the past, Cary.

Sometimes the job market throws you a curve. That's how I ended up with a career as a machinist for 23 years and more recently as a designer for the last 17. I have no regrets. It's been interesting and challenging and I have enjoyed good wages and benefits. But it isn't what I went to school for. So you can see that this is not a new phenomenon; It happened to me in 1975.-Paul

Mikegillam
11-27-2013, 04:21 PM
http://247wallst.com/jobs/2011/09/01/the-best-paying-jobs-of-the-future/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/22/ten-largest-employers/2680249/

I agree with the Civil Service employing a large number. I should have clarified private employer. However, as unbelievable as it may seem, finding a somewhat common number for civil service jobs is pretty difficult. Numbers have ranged from 1.7 million to 2.4 million. You'd think it might be a little easier to find. Cary, your path to your career is admirable and I certainly didn't mean to imply anything negative about anyone's background, only that education was the path towards a "better" life for most people. I also don't know that CEO would have to have their pay cut, to improve the worker's lot, although that is one way. Another possibility could be, according to a study researching Wal mart, increasing workers wages to $12.00/hour, which would increase most worker's annual salary from app. $3000-$6000. The cost to shoppers would be about .42/trip. I believe I have those figures correct. That would not decrease the CEO salary or profit margin, but would increase workers wages. Doesn't seem like a bad deal...keep your profits, CEO can keep their salary, and the workers gain. But then again, most I believe many business philosophies today would be increase the costs of items, don't improve workers salaries, and take more profits. Good for the business? Yes, it is good for the investors. Good for society? Nope, I don't think so.

caryalsobrook
11-27-2013, 08:35 PM
I would love to see you get thru Pre-Med and Dental school without incurring debt today.....or even 10 years ago,for that matter.

I put myself thru a 4 year State university 1970-1975 working part time jobs during the school year and working a full time job plus a part time job in the summers. That simply can't be done today, even ata State university, which is the least expensive way to go. You need to stop living in the past, Cary.

Sometimes the job market throws you a curve. That's how I ended up with a career as a machinist for 23 years and more recently as a designer for the last 17. I have no regrets. It's been interesting and challenging and I have enjoyed good wages and benefits. But it isn't what I went to school for. So you can see that this is not a new phenomenon; It happened to me in 1975.-Paul
My son went to college about 10 years ago. MAXIMUM TUITION of any semester was $2,300. Total cost of books, fees, tuition was about $9,000. Since the legalization of the lottery, of which all income derived, goes to education, students (these are general numbers since it has been a while since I looked the up), with a "C" average or above and a score of 19( not sure but no more than an average score), receives a scolarship at least equal to the tuition, books and fees of a state university. I feel sure that in towns of 10,000 or more, there is a Jr. College, College, or a satelite campus of at least 1 university. I doubt there are few if any that live farther than 20 miles from a state college or campus. The problem is there is such a low standard to qualify that there is a high failure rate. These students flood the colleges and create far greater demand than there would normally be.

My source is Dave Ramsey, creator of a program named Financial Peace. He says there are a great many scolarships that are not awarded due to lack of applicants. If I remember his daughter while in High School located by herself and was awarded 5 of them. More to the story but that should be enough.

You are probably right that I am living in the past. In no way do I believe that the kids of today are lazy. Instead of having people challenging me and telling me what I COULD do, these kids have people telling them what THEY CAN'T DO. I would believe a coach would expect his players to possess those qualities I have listed. I also believe a good coach would believe that his primary job is to MOTIVATE his players. Unfortunately kids have few to motivate them. I think the world of which you speak hurt rather than motivate.

luvmylabs23139
11-28-2013, 11:07 AM
I would love to see you get thru Pre-Med and Dental school without incurring debt today.....or even 10 years ago,for that matter.

I put myself thru a 4 year State university 1970-1975 working part time jobs during the school year and working a full time job plus a part time job in the summers. That simply can't be done today, even ata State university, which is the least expensive way to go. You need to stop living in the past, Cary.

Sometimes the job market throws you a curve. That's how I ended up with a career as a machinist for 23 years and more recently as a designer for the last 17. I have no regrets. It's been interesting and challenging and I have enjoyed good wages and benefits. But it isn't what I went to school for. So you can see that this is not a new phenomenon; It happened to me in 1975.-Paul

I just pulled up the CT state U dh went to. Shocked to find a required $692 per semester insuarance
fee! That is almost $1400 per year to feed OBAMCARE beast! What the hell!
Tution isn't that bad but required unexplained fees are more than tuition. NO explanation of what the fees are.

luvmylabs23139
11-28-2013, 11:08 AM
I would love to see you get thru Pre-Med and Dental school without incurring debt today.....or even 10 years ago,for that matter.

I put myself thru a 4 year State university 1970-1975 working part time jobs during the school year and working a full time job plus a part time job in the summers. That simply can't be done today, even ata State university, which is the least expensive way to go. You need to stop living in the past, Cary.

Sometimes the job market throws you a curve. That's how I ended up with a career as a machinist for 23 years and more recently as a designer for the last 17. I have no regrets. It's been interesting and challenging and I have enjoyed good wages and benefits. But it isn't what I went to school for. So you can see that this is not a new phenomenon; It happened to me in 1975.-Paul

I just pulled up the CT state U dh went to. Shocked to find a required $692 per semester insuarance
fee! That is almost $1400 per year to feed OBAMCARE beast! What the hell!

Mikegillam
11-28-2013, 01:43 PM
[QUOTE=caryalsobrook;1166597]My son went to college about 10 years ago. MAXIMUM TUITION of any semester was $2,300. Total cost of books, fees, tuition was about $9,000. Since the legalization of the lottery, of which all income derived, goes to education, students (these are general numbers since it has been a while since I looked the up), with a "C" average or above and a score of 19( not sure but no more than an average score), receives a scolarship at least equal to the tuition, books and fees of a state university.

Cary, are you talking about all high school seniors in Tennessee that meet those criterion are eligible at all state schools in Tennessee? if I understand correctly, that is an incredible deal for Tennessee residents! In my 20 years as a high school principal, I have never heard of such a great opportunity, at least not in the state of Ohio. My daughter goes to an Ohio state school, with an annual cost of about $19,300 including tuition, room, and board. Books, misc. costs are not included. This cost is very representative of Ohio state schools. While there are numerous competitive scholarships/grants that be applied for, there is nothing on the level of what you have described. Ohio also has the lottery system where profits are (supposedly) shared amongst all of the public K-12 school systems in the state. However, surplus money over the last couple of years has been diverted from the schools to a rainy day fund that was established by the Governor. The lottery in Ohio makes up about 5% of the State Education budget. It appears where Ohio is trying to put money towards k-12 education, Tennessee is putting their money towards getting students college educated. Again, if I read correctly, this is a great idea! Maybe I should have moved to Tennessee from North Carolina instead of back to Ohio!

Brad Turner
11-28-2013, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE=caryalsobrook;1166597]My son went to college about 10 years ago. MAXIMUM TUITION of any semester was $2,300. Total cost of books, fees, tuition was about $9,000. Since the legalization of the lottery, of which all income derived, goes to education, students (these are general numbers since it has been a while since I looked the up), with a "C" average or above and a score of 19( not sure but no more than an average score), receives a scolarship at least equal to the tuition, books and fees of a state university.

Cary, are you talking about all high school seniors in Tennessee that meet those criterion are eligible at all state schools in Tennessee? if I understand correctly, that is an incredible deal for Tennessee residents! In my 20 years as a high school principal, I have never heard of such a great opportunity, at least not in the state of Ohio. My daughter goes to an Ohio state school, with an annual cost of about $19,300 including tuition, room, and board. Books, misc. costs are not included. This cost is very representative of Ohio state schools. While there are numerous competitive scholarships/grants that be applied for, there is nothing on the level of what you have described. Ohio also has the lottery system where profits are (supposedly) shared amongst all of the public K-12 school systems in the state. However, surplus money over the last couple of years has been diverted from the schools to a rainy day fund that was established by the Governor. The lottery in Ohio makes up about 5% of the State Education budget. It appears where Ohio is trying to put money towards k-12 education, Tennessee is putting their money towards getting students college educated. Again, if I read correctly, this is a great idea! Maybe I should have moved to Tennessee from North Carolina instead of back to Ohio!
from TN.gov:TENNESSEE HOPE SCHOLARSHIP (Application)

Students must meet the following requirements:

Entering freshmen must have a minimum of a 21 ACT (980 SAT), exclusive of the essay and optional subject area battery tests OR
Overall weighted* minimum 3.0 grade point average (GPA)
Home School graduates – minimum 21 ACT (980 SAT), exclusive of the essay and optional subject area battery tests
GED Applicants – minimum 525 and 21 ACT (980 SAT), exclusive of the essay and optional subject area battery tests
If a student ceases to be eligible for HOPE, except for GAMS and HOPE Access Grant, the student may regain HOPE, one-time only.
ACT/SAT exams must be taken prior to the first day of college enrollment.
For students who first received the HOPE Scholarship prior to fall 2009

Award amount – Up to $4,000 for four-year institutions or a two-year eligible postsecondary institution that offers on-campus housing. Up to $2,000 for two-year eligible postsecondary institutions

For students who first received the HOPE Scholarship in fall 2009 and thereafter

Award amount – Up to $6,000 per year at an eligible four-year postsecondary institution or a two-year eligible postsecondary institution that offers on-campus housing. Up to $3,000 per year at an eligible two-year postsecondary institution. The award is divided equally between fall, spring and summer semesters. Awards to part-time enrolled students are prorated.

*Weighted grade point average means a grade point average on a 4.0 scale calculated with additional internal quality points awarded for advanced placement, honors or other similar courses according to the Uniform Grading Policy adopted by the State Board of Education.

caryalsobrook
11-28-2013, 05:34 PM
[QUOTE=Mikegillam;1166694]
from TN.gov:TENNESSEE HOPE SCHOLARSHIP (Application)

Students must meet the following requirements:

Entering freshmen must have a minimum of a 21 ACT (980 SAT), exclusive of the essay and optional subject area battery tests OR
Overall weighted* minimum 3.0 grade point average (GPA)
Home School graduates – minimum 21 ACT (980 SAT), exclusive of the essay and optional subject area battery tests
GED Applicants – minimum 525 and 21 ACT (980 SAT), exclusive of the essay and optional subject area battery tests
If a student ceases to be eligible for HOPE, except for GAMS and HOPE Access Grant, the student may regain HOPE, one-time only.
ACT/SAT exams must be taken prior to the first day of college enrollment.
For students who first received the HOPE Scholarship prior to fall 2009

Award amount – Up to $4,000 for four-year institutions or a two-year eligible postsecondary institution that offers on-campus housing. Up to $2,000 for two-year eligible postsecondary institutions

For students who first received the HOPE Scholarship in fall 2009 and thereafter

Award amount – Up to $6,000 per year at an eligible four-year postsecondary institution or a two-year eligible postsecondary institution that offers on-campus housing. Up to $3,000 per year at an eligible two-year postsecondary institution. The award is divided equally between fall, spring and summer semesters. Awards to part-time enrolled students are prorated.

*Weighted grade point average means a grade point average on a 4.0 scale calculated with additional internal quality points awarded for advanced placement, honors or other similar courses according to the Uniform Grading Policy adopted by the State Board of Education.

I think it has been at least 10 years since the Hope Scholarship first passed. I do remember that there was a fight whether to require a 19 or 21 ACT score and the minimum GPA to qualify. There is also a minimum GPA that increases each year of college. I can not remember what the final result was initially. 19-21 ACT and 2.5-3.0 GPA. Personally, I think both requirements are too low. The failure rate as I understand it, is far too high. College should be for the high achievers, and not for the average achievers. Otherwise you dumbdown the value of the education or you have a high failure rate.

Never will you hear me say that kids today are lazy. In fact in my opinion, they have it much HARDER than I did. Not only was I allowed to work, I was REQUIRED TO WORK. My parents saw to that. No minimum wage, child labor laws, or ruled governing internships. And thankfully, THANKFULLY I also had jobs where I had direct contact with the employer.

It always frustrates me when kids are told they CAN'T do something. Desire, determination, persistence, and patience are important keys to success. When one tell a youth that they can't, then they probably won't.

caryalsobrook
11-28-2013, 07:03 PM
http://247wallst.com/jobs/2011/09/01/the-best-paying-jobs-of-the-future/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/22/ten-largest-employers/2680249/

I agree with the Civil Service employing a large number. I should have clarified private employer. However, as unbelievable as it may seem, finding a somewhat common number for civil service jobs is pretty difficult. Numbers have ranged from 1.7 million to 2.4 million. You'd think it might be a little easier to find. Cary, your path to your career is admirable and I certainly didn't mean to imply anything negative about anyone's background, only that education was the path towards a "better" life for most people. I also don't know that CEO would have to have their pay cut, to improve the worker's lot, although that is one way. Another possibility could be, according to a study researching Wal mart, increasing workers wages to $12.00/hour, which would increase most worker's annual salary from app. $3000-$6000. The cost to shoppers would be about .42/trip. I believe I have those figures correct. That would not decrease the CEO salary or profit margin, but would increase workers wages. Doesn't seem like a bad deal...keep your profits, CEO can keep their salary, and the workers gain. But then again, most I believe many business philosophies today would be increase the costs of items, don't improve workers salaries, and take more profits. Good for the business? Yes, it is good for the investors. Good for society? Nope, I don't think so.

Actually, my background was excellent. Even though my father only made it to the 10th grade, he was not poorly educated. We had both the Encyclopedia Brittanica and the American Encyclopedia, both of which he had read cover to cover. His math was something to behold. It was self taught and probably broke all the rules, BUT IT WORKED!.. Took me quite a while to understand it, but it worked and was accurate. Where his level of formal education was evident was in his lack of ability to communicate.

If one believes "my path to my career is admirable", then those that motivated me and honed those skills that are so important, are the ones that deserve the credit. If I said "I can't" or "it's not FAIR", I was quickly told that those answers were unacceptable. YOU CAN AND YOU MUST was always the proper response. Excuses were not tolerated. Unfortunately "I can't and it's not fair", are the accepted norm.

PS. It never occurred to me that you said anything negative about my background. My parents were wonderful parents in many, many ways. If I were to criticize them, it would be that they were unable to temper the demand for excellence with support and praise. They both have passed now so I can tell this. When I informed them that I intended to resign from IBM, and go back to college to take the required courses for dental school, they were firmly against it. My Mother even took a bus to come and talk me out of it. Both were EXTREMELY unhappy when I resigned. When in dental school, not once did either ask me "if I was ok", to which my response would have been "I am fine". I must admit that this made me so bitter that when I graduated, I would not even call them and tell them when and where. My wife called them the morning of graduation and they did come. Time has tempered my bitterness and it did elevate my determination to a higher level. My parents' qualities far outweighed this one incident but it did affect me, hopefully for the better. Since my son was a very young age, I have told him time and time again. "Son, I will help you do anything. I may even help you if I think you are wrong. But the one thing I will not help you do, is I will not help you DO NOTHING." I think he has known that by heart since his first day in school.:)

luvmylabs23139
11-29-2013, 09:49 AM
In NC you can get taxpayer funded in state tuition at certain state Universities for SAT scores that are not much higher than just signing your name. THere is something wrong with this. I have no idea what the new translation with the edition of the essay section would be but under the old 1600 system you had better hit at least 950 for any CT state school ( that got you a college which are now Universites) and 1000 for UCONN main campus. YOU could not get UConn main campus without at least a 480 in each subject. Unfortunately even back then (1981) they had racial exceptions.

luvmylabs23139
11-29-2013, 10:16 AM
NObody should have kids if they can't provide for them period. I'm tired of being told I should pay for others choices end of story. There ar a few people who thru a tragic death may end up in this situtation. I have zero issue helping them, but not BABY MOMMA who will not keep her legs crossed.
Any retail, fast food entry job is a starting place not ever meant to suport a family end of story. Those are jobs many of us had as part time in high school as a first job not a lifestyle. Even there if you work and apply yourself you can be promoted whether or not you are looking for it. At 17 working in a grocery store I went from cashier ( before scanners) to night/ weekend book keeper. They gave us tons of responsibility. Combo to the cash safe, approving check rights etc. Cashing checks you name it. Does someone who is barfing under the register deserve the same pay just beacuse they have a kid? They would not fire her do to the stupid union. DO they get more? Or does the repsonsible kid get paid more?

Marvin S
11-29-2013, 01:46 PM
NObody should have kids if they can't provide for them period. I'm tired of being told I should pay for others choices end of story.

If I'm not mistaken, you invited yourself to this party - those of us here because of being born here like it the way it is mostly.

Not that I like this, but can only vote against those who enable it, which I do. Most folks in the situation you describe probably are unable to reason that what they are doing is wrong because:

1) the folks making the money from it tell them it's OK.
2) they came here & were never required to assimilate.
3) they are the folks from the left side of the Bell Curve.

Have you ever read the "Bell Curve"? Is what you describe any different than the corporate welfare that the government dishes to a select few?

shinyhead
11-29-2013, 06:25 PM
NObody should have kids if they can't provide for them period. I'm tired of being told I should pay for others choices end of story. There ar a few people who thru a tragic death may end up in this situtation. I have zero issue helping them, but not BABY MOMMA who will not keep her legs crossed.
Any retail, fast food entry job is a starting place not ever meant to suport a family end of story. Those are jobs many of us had as part time in high school as a first job not a lifestyle. Even there if you work and apply yourself you can be promoted whether or not you are looking for it. At 17 working in a grocery store I went from cashier ( before scanners) to night/ weekend book keeper. They gave us tons of responsibility. Combo to the cash safe, approving check rights etc. Cashing checks you name it. Does someone who is barfing under the register deserve the same pay just beacuse they have a kid? They would not fire her do to the stupid union. DO they get more? Or does the repsonsible kid get paid more?

As Marvin S stated. You could always go back to where you came from. Most of us were born here. I have read several of your posts and there seems to be an issue with you and children. Do you not like children? Or are you so self centered that you don't want to sacrifice any of "your" money to spend on kids?

charly_t
11-30-2013, 12:36 AM
Uummmm, Luv is a citizen. She was brought here as a child and everything was legal. She has a right to say what she thinks and feels just like the rest of us. I believe my memory is corrct on this...........if not someone will no doubt correct me...............

shinyhead
11-30-2013, 12:48 AM
Uummmm, Luv is a citizen. She was brought here as a child and everything was legal. She has a right to say what she thinks and feels just like the rest of us. I believe my memory is corrct on this...........if not someone will no doubt correct me...............

I have told many people in my life, that if you don't like it here, go somewhere else. that is the beauty of this great country, you can leave it any time you like. Most people that complain about how bad it is here and how much they hate this or that, wouldn't leave here if you paid them. that's why everybody wants to come to america, because of the freedoms and opportunities that this great country has. My late father used to say, "most people don't have anything to talk about, unless they have something to complain about." some here that complain about kids and "baby momma", I wonder if they would support involuntary sterilization of those of breeding age, that don't pass an IQ test with a certain level? Or like China had at one time, don't know if it is still in effect, each couple is only allowed 1 child, if the woman becomes pregnant with a 2nd child, the govt forces her to have an abortion. How would that go over here?

charly_t
11-30-2013, 11:02 AM
I have told many people in my life, that if you don't like it here, go somewhere else. that is the beauty of this great country, you can leave it any time you like. Most people that complain about how bad it is here and how much they hate this or that, wouldn't leave here if you paid them. that's why everybody wants to come to america, because of the freedoms and opportunities that this great country has. My late father used to say, "most people don't have anything to talk about, unless they have something to complain about." some here that complain about kids and "baby momma", I wonder if they would support involuntary sterilization of those of breeding age, that don't pass an IQ test with a certain level? Or like China had at one time, don't know if it is still in effect, each couple is only allowed 1 child, if the woman becomes pregnant with a 2nd child, the govt forces her to have an abortion. How would that go over here?

So you want everyone to keep quiet about our problems in this country ?

shinyhead
11-30-2013, 05:22 PM
So you want everyone to keep quiet about our problems in this country ?

I don't want people to keep quiet about our problems. Just discuss them in a rational manner. As for someone that was brought here as a child and got citizenship legally, good for her. At the same time, she does nothing but bad mouth this country and how bad it is.

shinyhead
11-30-2013, 05:25 PM
There are many things that need fixing in this country. Such as all of the money we give away to other countries in foreign aid, while we are borrowing money and spending it like there's no tomorrow. People say they want secure borders here. Simple, all the troops we have stationed all over the globe, bring them home and have them protect our own land and let everybody else fend for themselves.

Gerry Clinchy
12-01-2013, 12:11 AM
Picking on Walmart: I'm no fan of Walmart. I worked for a company that sold a product to Walmart, and they squeeze their suppliers, for sure.

Truth is though that the jobs that Walmart provides require low skill levels; and many are part-time jobs. They are the kinds of jobs that were once often filled by people as a "second job" or as a job while working one's way through college. That has commonly been the nature of entry-level retail jobs. Only a few people out of those many "worker bees" are needed to be department heads or store managers.They are not the only retailer that offers such jobs. They just happen to be a very visible one due to their size.

If the one at the top reduced their compensation by $16 million/year, distributed among 2.2 million workers, it would work out to less than $7.27/worker/year. Though, perhaps, they would distribute it less than equally, giving more of it to those with the jobs requiring more responsibility and less to the lower-level workers. However, I cannot make a case for me (or any of us) deciding how much compensation is "too much" for someone else. That just generates class envy ... exactly what socialism nurtures to achieve its goals.

Looking at it another way, if Walmart increased it's workers' wages by just $100/year, that would be over $100 million a year. That would undoubtedly result in an increase in their selling prices for everyone, including those Walmart workers who purchase goods at Walmart themselves.

Marvin S
12-01-2013, 10:11 AM
Picking on Walmart: I'm no fan of Walmart. I worked for a company that sold a product to Walmart, and they squeeze their suppliers, for sure.

Truth is though that the jobs that Walmart provides require low skill levels; and many are part-time jobs. They are the kinds of jobs that were once often filled by people as a "second job" or as a job while working one's way through college. That has commonly been the nature of entry-level retail jobs. Only a few people out of those many "worker bees" are needed to be department heads or store managers.They are not the only retailer that offers such jobs. They just happen to be a very visible one due to their size.

If the one at the top reduced their compensation by $16 million/year, distributed among 2.2 million workers, it would work out to less than $7.27/worker/year. Though, perhaps, they would distribute it less than equally, giving more of it to those with the jobs requiring more responsibility and less to the lower-level workers. However, I cannot make a case for me (or any of us) deciding how much compensation is "too much" for someone else. That just generates class envy ... exactly what socialism nurtures to achieve its goals.

Looking at it another way, if Walmart increased it's workers' wages by just $100/year, that would be over $100 million a year. That would undoubtedly result in an increase in their selling prices for everyone, including those Walmart workers who purchase goods at Walmart themselves.

Have you ever taken a good look at who they have hired - many of those people are close to unemployable for various reasons. That they take them in & actually teach them skills which might make them employable elsewhere is a service to the country. All the union folks see is a major source of revenue & not so smart folks enable that line of reasoning.

If they squeeze their suppliers, what's new? Sears & all the majors were famous for it. There is a name for it that escapes me right now but it goes thusly: the 1st unit is the baseline - if you are on a 70% curve the 2nd unit is built in 70% of that time - the 4th unit is built in 70% of the time the 2nd was - the 8th unit is built in 70% of the time the 4th was & on. It works :o. Most if not all successful manufacturers use some variation of that process.

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 11:29 AM
If I'm not mistaken, you invited yourself to this party - those of us here because of being born here like it the way it is mostly.

Not that I like this, but can only vote against those who enable it, which I do. Most folks in the situation you describe probably are unable to reason that what they are doing is wrong because:

1) the folks making the money from it tell them it's OK.
2) they came here & were never required to assimilate.
3) they are the folks from the left side of the Bell Curve.

Have you ever read the "Bell Curve"? Is what you describe any different than the corporate welfare that the government dishes to a select few?

Actually I had no choice in the matter. I was not quite 4 when I moved here.
Nobody jumped a border or broke any laws!
I had my green card in hand the minute I stepped on American soil. If you have a problem with that talk to the powers that be.
My father was not a border jumping unskilled laborer. Sorry if the US did not have enough of the right type of engineeers back in 1967 so they recruited from alleys who worked for the British dept of defense.
NO I do not think I should pay for people who either cheat and jump the border or can't keep their legs crossed. I make zero appology for that attitude.

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 11:38 AM
As Marvin S stated. You could always go back to where you came from. Most of us were born here. I have read several of your posts and there seems to be an issue with you and children. Do you not like children? Or are you so self centered that you don't want to sacrifice any of "your" money to spend on kids?

I have nothing against kids. I have a huge problem with my hard earned money being taken from me to pay for someone elses kids that they "spat" out. Breed it feed it. See that as you want. I was taught to be responsible for my actions. I hardly think I should be forced to pay for someone else's lack of responsibility!
I have always said that I have zero issue with helping a widow care for her children but I have a huge issue with squat and plops or getto baby mama!

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 11:39 AM
Uummmm, Luv is a citizen. She was brought here as a child and everything was legal. She has a right to say what she thinks and feels just like the rest of us. I believe my memory is corrct on this...........if not someone will no doubt correct me...............

Thanks Charley!

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 11:46 AM
I don't want people to keep quiet about our problems. Just discuss them in a rational manner. As for someone that was brought here as a child and got citizenship legally, good for her. At the same time, she does nothing but bad mouth this country and how bad it is.

When I bust my butt and Obamma takes what I work hard for to feed his mutipying rabbit leeches I have a huge problem. Maybe he should stop telling me to work to feed his beast and rather tell his leeching buddies to become responsible for their actions rather than that he will give them what I worked for while they do whatever!!!!

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 11:48 AM
There are many things that need fixing in this country. Such as all of the money we give away to other countries in foreign aid, while we are borrowing money and spending it like there's no tomorrow. People say they want secure borders here. Simple, all the troops we have stationed all over the globe, bring them home and have them protect our own land and let everybody else fend for themselves.
Maybe we can grow a set and shoot to kill the border jumpers! Tell Obama to grow a set!~

BonMallari
12-01-2013, 11:49 AM
Actually I had no choice in the matter. I was not quite 4 when I moved here.
Nobody jumped a border or broke any laws!
I had my green card in hand the minute I stepped on American soil. If you have a problem with that talk to the powers that be.
My father was not a border jumping unskilled laborer. Sorry if the US did not have enough of the right type of engineeers back in 1967 so they recruited from alleys who worked for the British dept of defense.
NO I do not think I should pay for people who either cheat and jump the border or can't keep their legs crossed. I make zero appology for that attitude.

We get it already..seems like every other post of yours is about complaining about anchor babies and other offspring of the like, We get it, your bigoted view of illegals gets tiresome,seems to be the single thought that drives every response of yours here on POTUS..give it a rest

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 12:10 PM
We get it already..seems like every other post of yours is about complaining about anchor babies and other offspring of the like, We get it, your bigoted view of illegals gets tiresome,seems to be the single thought that drives every response of yours here on POTUS..give it a rest
I answered Shinyhead, who is new what is the big deal? Why is it bigoted to believe in following the rules? Lots of people come here by the rules. Why is it wrong to be against those who cheat?
Do you think it is right that someone plays by the rules, waits in their country but yet if they jumped the border or came on a visitor visa and just stayed they should have an advantage over those waiting in their home country who are doing everything right?
That is the real story.

BonMallari
12-01-2013, 12:25 PM
big·ot
noun \ˈbi-gət\

: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)


: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 12:41 PM
big·ot
noun \ˈbi-gət\

: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)


: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intoleranceThat is the issue I have with your comment. I have a big issue with ANYONE who cheats the system. It has zero to do with race , ethnic origin or religion. I want everone to play by the same rules and not get "special" rights. I don't think anthing including the box of cereal I buy should be in any other language than English. Why should any language other than the traditional language of the US get priority over another? That is just an example.
My issue is with following the rules no matter where you come from.

charly_t
12-01-2013, 01:13 PM
Thanks Charley!

Fair is fair. Everyone on this board probably had family who "came from the Old Country". Of course lots of people never talk about that :-) This country has a fascinating history. One only has to read the books that are recently published that reveal the hidden history. I'm sure some of it is written to sell books but I had an American History teacher who pointed us in the correct direction ( reports were required ) to read about the early explorers etc. It was an eye opener after just reading the school text books for years. Just finished reading about the Lewis and Clark trip.

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 01:13 PM
big·ot
noun \ˈbi-gət\

: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)


: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Let me add it is not "unfair" to be opposed to cheaters and theives. If you suport those that steal from ederal income tax payers then say it rather than blasting me to want to keep what I earned!

BonMallari
12-01-2013, 02:25 PM
Let me add it is not "unfair" to be opposed to cheaters and theives. If you suport those that steal from ederal income tax payers then say it rather than blasting me to want to keep what I earned!

support..seriously...You share the same BIGOTED views as my sister who lives in SoCal, she got brainwashed by my late BIL and forgot the ONE thing mom/dad taught us..NEVER forget where you came from,dont be ashamed of it but be very grateful for the opportunities that this country has given us..She is a lot like you in thinking that since she is a US citizen that she is above any immigrant both legal and illegal

You think that its the illegals scamming the system, they are but a blip on the screen, there are more US citizens scamming the system and they come in all colors and all ethnic backgrounds...the illegals in the country just want to pick up a paycheck for their work,they are too afraid of being exposed so they dont go after the SS benefits because it exposes them to scrutiny from ICE

You continually harp about people having kids and scamming the system, Well guess what, it comes with the territory of living here, it may not be fair and equitable but those are the unwritten rules of the game. If you dont like it you have choices, either change the system or leave

mjh345
12-01-2013, 03:47 PM
support..seriously...You share the same BIGOTED views as my sister who lives in SoCal, she got brainwashed by my late BIL and forgot the ONE thing mom/dad taught us..NEVER forget where you came from,dont be ashamed of it but be very grateful for the opportunities that this country has given us..She is a lot like you in thinking that since she is a US citizen that she is above any immigrant both legal and illegal

You think that its the illegals scamming the system, they are but a blip on the screen, there are more US citizens scamming the system and they come in all colors and all ethnic backgrounds...the illegals in the country just want to pick up a paycheck for their work,they are too afraid of being exposed so they dont go after the SS benefits because it exposes them to scrutiny from ICE

You continually harp about people having kids and scamming the system, Well guess what, it comes with the territory of living here, it may not be fair and equitable but those are the unwritten rules of the game. If you dont like it you have choices, either change the system or leave

Thank you!!

luvmylabs23139
12-01-2013, 03:51 PM
support..seriously...You share the same BIGOTED views as my sister who lives in SoCal, she got brainwashed by my late BIL and forgot the ONE thing mom/dad taught us..NEVER forget where you came from,dont be ashamed of it but be very grateful for the opportunities that this country has given us..She is a lot like you in thinking that since she is a US citizen that she is above any immigrant both legal and illegal

You think that its the illegals scamming the system, they are but a blip on the screen, there are more US citizens scamming the system and they come in all colors and all ethnic backgrounds...the illegals in the country just want to pick up a paycheck for their work,they are too afraid of being exposed so they dont go after the SS benefits because it exposes them to scrutiny from ICE

You continually harp about people having kids and scamming the system, Well guess what, it comes with the territory of living here, it may not be fair and equitable but those are the unwritten rules of the game. If you dont like it you have choices, either change the system or leave

I have said it a thousand times there is a big difference between LEGAL and illegal. IT IS NOT FAIR OR RIGHT for anyone to steal from someone else whether or not this insane leftwing gov't is a partof it or not. We need to get back to the written rules, the constitution, not the bs fed by those who ignore it and condone the theft! How about the consitution be adhered to not destroyed by liberals!!!

mngundog
12-01-2013, 04:16 PM
I have said it a thousand times there is a big difference between LEGAL and illegal. IT IS NOT FAIR OR RIGHT for anyone to steal from someone else whether or not this insane leftwing gov't is a partof it or not. We need to get back to the written rules, the constitution, not the bs fed by those who ignore it and condone the theft! How about the consitution be adhered to not destroyed by liberals!!!
Actually that's not true, you continue to insult American born citizens (anchor babies), you have no regard for the Constitution in that regard, you pick and choose the parts of it you agree with. If you wanted to go back to the written rules you would quit talking about American born citizens along with voting rights, however you have no regard to the Constitution, you must be a liberal since you are trying to destroy it.

Marvin S
12-01-2013, 05:25 PM
Actually I had no choice in the matter. I was not quite 4 when I moved here.
Nobody jumped a border or broke any laws!
I had my green card in hand the minute I stepped on American soil. If you have a problem with that talk to the powers that be.
My father was not a border jumping unskilled laborer. Sorry if the US did not have enough of the right type of engineeers back in 1967 so they recruited from alleys who worked for the British dept of defense.
NO I do not think I should pay for people who either cheat and jump the border or can't keep their legs crossed. I make zero appology for that attitude.

You are no better than an anchor baby - there were plenty of engineers capable of doing the job in this country. Companies were trying to keep labor rates down & those guys worked cheaper but certainly not better. What the US ended up with in general was underperforming malcontents who thought themselves superior as they had won the lottery in their own country & had been able to attend their institutes of higher learning. I worked with a ton of them who didn't survive the SST layoffs from 68-71. Most will not remember but there was a billboard on I-5 that "will the last person to leave please turn out the lights".

You have a really bad attitude, you might want to rethink your feelings of superiority to anyone. At one time or another I have had engineers from just about every region of the world reporting to me. The East Europeans thought themselves superior (that would be the group you immigrated with) but rarely could push a tough job, the folks from ME had been around camels & simple carts too much though I did have an Egyptian that was a real producer, the folks from India had a real issue with their lead engineer being willing to get himself dirty to get a job done & the folks East of India to Korea had to be taught to stand up to authority (once that was done they were really good engineers, though not real original). The best at what we did were the good old farm boys from middle america :o.


We get it already..seems like every other post of yours is about complaining about anchor babies and other offspring of the like, We get it, your bigoted view of illegals gets tiresome,seems to be the single thought that drives every response of yours here on POTUS..give it a rest

I worked with a lot of them during the time frame luvy & I describe. Everyone seemed to think they needed an Engineer on their staff, It was a time of huge underutilization of engineering talent available in this country. It is no different today - the tech companies hire these people because they work cheaper & are not as prone to leaving a project that is bogged down than someone with flexibility. We used to have someone on this forum that could comment with a more close up view to that - unfortunately they were red carded.

BonMallari
12-01-2013, 05:51 PM
Marvin : you just described the engineers(tech)at IBM in San Jose/Santa Clara to a T...one of my brothers worked for a telecommunications division of theirs just before the dot com bubble, and they were importing engineers left, right, and center from every part of the globe for EXACTLY the reasons you mentioned, and just like you explained when the SHTF they generally caved and were not up to the task at hand..seems like the engineering schools just didnt match up with those found here in the states

Golddogs
12-01-2013, 07:28 PM
Actually I had no choice in the matter. I was not quite 4 when I moved here.
Nobody jumped a border or broke any laws!
I had my green card in hand the minute I stepped on American soil. If you have a problem with that talk to the powers that be.
My father was not a border jumping unskilled laborer. Sorry if the US did not have enough of the right type of engineeers back in 1967 so they recruited from alleys who worked for the British dept of defense.
NO I do not think I should pay for people who either cheat and jump the border or can't keep their legs crossed. I make zero appology for that attitude.

That clears up a lot. Coming from alley people one would expect this sort of behavior. Luvy, your venomous writing reminds me of the words and actions of the old south. Thankfully that way of life is behind us, but you seem to revel in it. You would have fit right in! Maybe now with mental health coverage mandated by your president, you are a US citizen after all, you can get that much needed help and work on your anger issues and possibly become a better person for it.( they can't exclude you for a pre-exisiting condition so you are covered ). Either that or head back across the pond and see how that goes for you.

Being a Brit, you should be a whole lot more greatful for what America gives you. You could have been speaking German!

Buzz
12-01-2013, 07:55 PM
At one time or another I have had engineers from just about every region of the world reporting to me. The East Europeans thought themselves superior (that would be the group you immigrated with) but rarely could push a tough job, the folks from ME had been around camels & simple carts too much though I did have an Egyptian that was a real producer, the folks from India had a real issue with their lead engineer being willing to get himself dirty to get a job done & the folks East of India to Korea had to be taught to stand up to authority (once that was done they were really good engineers, though not real original). The best at what we did were the good old farm boys from middle america :o.


Like you, at Siemens I worked with engineers from every part of the globe. Although as you can imagine, most of my exposure was to German Engineers. They thought the were superior to everyone. Although for some reason we were superior to them when it came to making money. They were stacked pretty high with guys you had to call Doctor, although I don't think their Doctor is the same as our PhD. I used to meet with them several times a year in Nuremberg so we could keep our development departments aware of what the other was doing. My boss used to laugh at the huge amount of data they used to present. He said that they need a whole team of engineers to accomplish in a year what I did, calculating everything to the nth degree.

luvmylabs23139
12-04-2013, 11:55 AM
You are no better than an anchor baby - there were plenty of engineers capable of doing the job in this country. Companies were trying to keep labor rates down & those guys worked cheaper but certainly not better. What the US ended up with in general was underperforming malcontents who thought themselves superior as they had won the lottery in their own country & had been able to attend their institutes of higher learning. I worked with a ton of them who didn't survive the SST layoffs from 68-71. Most will not remember but there was a billboard on I-5 that "will the last person to leave please turn out the lights".

You have a really bad attitude, you might want to rethink your feelings of superiority to anyone. At one time or another I have had engineers from just about every region of the world reporting to me. The East Europeans thought themselves superior (that would be the group you immigrated with) but rarely could push a tough job, the folks from ME had been around camels & simple carts too much though I did have an Egyptian that was a real producer, the folks from India had a real issue with their lead engineer being willing to get himself dirty to get a job done & the folks East of India to Korea had to be taught to stand up to authority (once that was done they were really good engineers, though not real original). The best at what we did were the good old farm boys from middle america :o.



I worked with a lot of them during the time frame luvy & I describe. Everyone seemed to think they needed an Engineer on their staff, It was a time of huge underutilization of engineering talent available in this country. It is no different today - the tech companies hire these people because they work cheaper & are not as prone to leaving a project that is bogged down than someone with flexibility. We used to have someone on this forum that could comment with a more close up view to that - unfortunately they were red carded.

Gotta love your quote! Not like my father was one of those from India that you and my husband complain about. Yup he bitches non stop about them and I get it.
Sorry not Eastern Europe! Scotland is western Europe. My father's employer prior to moving to the US was the British dept of defense. Stratiscope Appollo, skylab, hubble, etc. Those are the names I know and he can somewhat talk about.

luvmylabs23139
12-04-2013, 12:05 PM
That clears up a lot. Coming from alley people one would expect this sort of behavior. Luvy, your venomous writing reminds me of the words and actions of the old south. Thankfully that way of life is behind us, but you seem to revel in it. You would have fit right in! Maybe now with mental health coverage mandated by your president, you are a US citizen after all, you can get that much needed help and work on your anger issues and possibly become a better person for it.( they can't exclude you for a pre-exisiting condition so you are covered ). Either that or head back across the pond and see how that goes for you.

Being a Brit, you should be a whole lot more greatful for what America gives you. You could have been speaking German!
I grew up in the north east, and am very happy to call the south home now! You go own the condo we owned in CT and have your hard earned taxpayer money taken from you to make your life a living hell!!
Get your property value trashed with your hard earned money! LIve that crap and then talk to me. YOU can;t sell because too many Paid for with your hard earned money section 8 slime move in. THey block your car with their brand new car so you can't go to work etc etc etc. Yeah, my hard earned money screwed me! Spend one week and you would still be screaming 15 years later!

luvmylabs23139
12-04-2013, 12:51 PM
Like you, at Siemens I worked with engineers from every part of the globe. Although as you can imagine, most of my exposure was to German Engineers. They thought the were superior to everyone. Although for some reason we were superior to them when it came to making money. They were stacked pretty high with guys you had to call Doctor, although I don't think their Doctor is the same as our PhD. I used to meet with them several times a year in Nuremberg so we could keep our development departments aware of what the other was doing. My boss used to laugh at the huge amount of data they used to present. He said that they need a whole team of engineers to accomplish in a year what I did, calculating everything to the nth degree.

Whatever, my family is not German and my dad never worked for Siemens. Nobdody ever had to call him "Doctor".
Before moving to the US he simply worked for an ally. The British dept of defense. If you have an issue with that so be it.
If you have an issue with being proud of your father for going beyond and above to get a few Americans home when you don't get to see Daddy for days so be it.
He kept Appllo 13 alive. That was his job. That did not happen in Huston TX. It happened in CT. They are the ones that dealt with the O2 levels and how low they could go. They pushed the limits. My dad saw the movie once and could never watch it again. I walked those halls. I grew up with those that really brought them home by keeping them alive.
On the other end we have a friend of dh who went to MIT worked for Seimens and I have no time for.

luvmylabs23139
12-04-2013, 01:13 PM
Actually that's not true, you continue to insult American born citizens (anchor babies), you have no regard for the Constitution in that regard, you pick and choose the parts of it you agree with. If you wanted to go back to the written rules you would quit talking about American born citizens along with voting rights, however you have no regard to the Constitution, you must be a liberal since you are trying to destroy it.

The 14th amendment was never meant for border jumpers ! End squat and plop today! Hey on a personal level I think only those who pay federal income taxes should be allowed to vote. If you take and don;t pay you should have no right to STEAL what someone worked for.
I have zero respect for anyone who is taking what I earned while they breed like rabbits and eat bon bons.
NO way they should get one dime of my hard earned money!!! Get off your fat butt, keep your legs crossed and shut up!

Golddogs
12-04-2013, 01:34 PM
I grew up in the north east, and am very happy to call the south home now! You go own the condo we owned in CT and have your hard earned taxpayer money taken from you to make your life a living hell!!
Get your property value trashed with your hard earned money! LIve that crap and then talk to me. YOU can;t sell because too many Paid for with your hard earned money section 8 slime move in. THey block your car with their brand new car so you can't go to work etc etc etc. Yeah, my hard earned money screwed me! Spend one week and you would still be screaming 15 years later!

Should have bought in a better part of town.

luvmylabs23139
12-04-2013, 01:54 PM
Should have bought in a better part of town.

Do you have any idea what property values were and are?. I did not buy in my future husband did looking for large dog friendly. BY the way the president of the board (co worker)lied to him and said it was large dog friendly when by rules it was not. He had no reason to not believe her as she had an old large dog.
When DH bought it had FHA standing but lost it within 2 years do to the collapse of the condo market in CT back in the 90s. He thought he bought at the bottom. It was not a bad area and had huge open green areas on the property. That was a huge plus. BUt CT moved the section8 slime in and destroyed it. ANy complaints about rule breaking were ignored! If you reported a violation and they were section 8, no response and you got a nasty letter! They refused to tow cars that should have been towed!

charly_t
12-04-2013, 01:58 PM
Should have bought in a better part of town.

I hope that your post is a joke not your lack of knowledge. Landlords have buildings built in good neighborhoods and plan on government help with the rent for poor people. There goes the neighborhood.
It has happened a lot in Tulsa OK. I can't speak for other towns but I have watched neighborhoods in Tulsa go down. Lots of people in these good neighborhoods fight this but people with the money to build these large apartment type buildings win because of their money. Sis lives in a rather large building for the retired.
At one time it was a very good neighborhood. Guess what those people who planned to rent to people who were ( and are ) being helped by our tax dollars built in the area. Sis can now walk two blocks and be in a bad neighborhood. Sis does not even live in OK so I'm sure this is happening everywhere in the USA.

Golddogs
12-04-2013, 02:56 PM
Do you have any idea what property values were and are?. I did not buy in my future husband did looking for large dog friendly. BY the way the president of the board (co worker)lied to him and said it was large dog friendly when by rules it was not. He had no reason to not believe her as she had an old large dog.
When DH bought it had FHA standing but lost it within 2 years do to the collapse of the condo market in CT back in the 90s. He thought he bought at the bottom. It was not a bad area and had huge open green areas on the property. That was a huge plus. BUt CT moved the section8 slime in and destroyed it. ANy complaints about rule breaking were ignored! If you reported a violation and they were section 8, no response and you got a nasty letter! They refused to tow cars that should have been towed!

Just jerking your chain Luvy. Been involved with property / property rental for over 30 years and you take the good with the bad. Although condos have never been a wise investment in these parts and I never dabbled in them. Duplexes, 4 plexes for the most part. Never rented subsidised and got out of it altogether 12-15 years ago. No longer any profit in it for the amount of work.

Still have a few friends in the bis and they are doing fine. Might have more to do with the where than the who they are renting to.

Ta

shinyhead
12-05-2013, 05:42 PM
The 14th amendment was never meant for border jumpers ! End squat and plop today! Hey on a personal level I think only those who pay federal income taxes should be allowed to vote. If you take and don;t pay you should have no right to STEAL what someone worked for.
I have zero respect for anyone who is taking what I earned while they breed like rabbits and eat bon bons.
NO way they should get one dime of my hard earned money!!! Get off your fat butt, keep your legs crossed and shut up!

Let's just go back to the "good ol' days" and make it so only, Rich, White, MEN can vote. You'd really have something to crow about then. Even you wouldn't get to vote. when you start picking and choosing who can vote and who can't, you are limiting the constitutional RIGHT to vote. Never a good idea to infringe upon someone's constitutional rights.

shinyhead
12-05-2013, 05:47 PM
also,
quit lumping all fat people into one category as useless and lazy. I am fat, but far from lazy. You definitely have a superiority complex. You are fit, and skinny, swim 5 miles a week, so that makes you superior to us "fat slobs". Get over yourself lady. You ain't all that and a bag of chips. Just an angry white immigrant.

Brad Turner
12-05-2013, 08:42 PM
Although I can almost quote luvvy's posts before I read them, I don't disagree with her on some of her complaints.

Do you guys want amnesty for illegal immigrants, or do you just disagree with how she voices her opinions?

Do you think that not prosecuting and deporting illegal immigrants when they commit additional crimes? (It seems that these people pop up on ICE radars when they break other laws in addition to illegal immigration?)

I'm just wondering what your problems are with her? I don't like reading the same venomous attacks she repeatedly posts, but I don't disagree with people being punished for their crimes. Why attack her?

Mom always told me that two wrongs don't make a right…

Luvvy, people would probably respect your opinions more if you presented them while maintaining a certain level of cooth. JMO

paul young
12-05-2013, 08:47 PM
"Luvvy, people would probably respect your opinions more if you presented them while maintaining a certain level of couth. JMO "

-And the cow jumped over the moon regards.....Paul

Buzz
12-05-2013, 09:00 PM
Where is that like button? ;-)

Marvin S
12-05-2013, 10:04 PM
Where is that like button? ;-)

I'm reading this article in American Spectator & a mention is made of your favorite economist Krugman whom you quote regularly, with the caption (Former financial advisor to Enron). Buzz it just can't get better than that :-P.

shinyhead
12-05-2013, 10:28 PM
Although I can almost quote luvvy's posts before I read them, I don't disagree with her on some of her complaints.

Do you guys want amnesty for illegal immigrants, or do you just disagree with how she voices her opinions?

Do you think that not prosecuting and deporting illegal immigrants when they commit additional crimes? (It seems that these people pop up on ICE radars when they break other laws in addition to illegal immigration?)

I'm just wondering what your problems are with her? I don't like reading the same venomous attacks she repeatedly posts, but I don't disagree with people being punished for their crimes. Why attack her?

Mom always told me that two wrongs don't make a right…

Luvvy, people would probably respect your opinions more if you presented them while maintaining a certain level of cooth. JMO

I agree wholeheartedly that illegals should be deported. picking and choosing who gets to vote and who doesn't is an unreasonable infringement upon one's constitutional rights. saying that only people that pay taxes get to vote, is just as asinine as saying that only people born here get to vote. That would exclude her from the voting pool and man I'll bet she'd really squeal then. Whether she likes it or not, the "anchor babies" are citizens by the simple fact they were born on American soil. Also, remember that the Brits have always fancied themselves as a better class of people than us peasants that live in America.

Henry V
12-18-2013, 12:48 AM
More news on reverse socialism

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/57277720-68/economists-percent-fed-income.html.csp

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/17/income-inequality-economy_n_4460725.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anthony-w-orlando/the-one-percent-is-hoggin_b_4449609.html

Is it just me or does the trickle seems to be going the wrong direction? All that free money from the central bank is ending up where?

Golden Boy
12-18-2013, 09:41 AM
I saw that report yesterday and didn't put a lot of stock in it. First, we are having record levels of migration to the USA of poor and unskilled. Second, maybe we should try a Free Market solution instead of the government trying to fix things and only making the matter worse. One has to look at our Tax Code that is thousands of pages only because of lobbyist. Eliminate the Tax Code and implement a Fair Tax system and the gap will narrow!
The tax code is only a small part of it. This country needs to fix the trade defict. This years trade defict with China alone will be 500 billion dollars. Fix the trade defict and jobs will start coming back to the US. Lets face it not everyone is going to be a rocket scientist. We need good paying low skill manufacturing jobs to come back to the US. America is the best market place in the world and every other country wants to be in it, but we're not charging them.
As for the reports of this acticle it's just more proof of class seperation, and that is what true Socialism is......The haves and thehave nots. With the haves directing the country and taking care of the have-nots.

Golden Boy
12-18-2013, 10:21 AM
All this talk and B.S. about income and wealth. And this current government has no plan. Can everyone tell me the President’s economic plan???????

Marvin S
12-18-2013, 10:36 AM
All this talk and B.S. about income and wealth. And this current government has no plan. Can everyone tell me the President’s economic plan???????

Not everyone but am anyone :). The POTUS wants to live high, make sure as much gets into his pocket & he can get & live high. Just like all the Kenyans :confused:. Other than that he doesn't have a clue, but Buzz's favorite economist thinks everything is great!

Buzz
12-18-2013, 01:55 PM
Not everyone but am anyone :). The POTUS wants to live high, make sure as much gets into his pocket & he can get & live high. Just like all the Kenyans :confused:. Other than that he doesn't have a clue,but Buzz's favorite economist thinks everything is great!


Not sure what you mean by that.

To clarify, if you read Krugman's Blog, you don't get the impression that he thinks much of anything is great.

Marvin S
12-18-2013, 04:31 PM
Not sure what you mean by that.

To clarify, if you read Krugman's Blog, you don't get the impression that he thinks much of anything is great.

I read no one's blog - Your guy would be the last I would tune into - we get him in the local rags.

Buzz
12-18-2013, 05:24 PM
I read no one's blog - Your guy would be the last I would tune into - we get him in the local rags.

I rarely ever read his column, I don't have much interest in it. His blog is way more interesting. Here is a link.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com