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DSMITH1651
03-21-2008, 10:36 AM
The Lazy Dog Post Got Me Wondering What Programs People Think Are The Best,and The Worst. I Have Used The Tt Retriever Training Book By Dobbs, And I Am Now Using Mike Lards Program So Far Pleased With Both Of Them But I Think Lardy Is Easer To Follow.
Duane

Bob Gutermuth
03-21-2008, 10:53 AM
Worst books? Water Dog by Wolters and Dobbs book. The paper would have been better used for Charmin.

BIG DOG
03-21-2008, 11:02 AM
i have to agree w/ bob

Lance-CO
03-21-2008, 11:19 AM
Water dog got me started and trained my first lab... JMHO, it's a good book. It's a bit outdated, but still have some good stuff especially the early stages of training.

For me, Mike Lardy DVD/books(manuals) is the best out there. Everytime I watch and read his book (20x), there is always something I can pick up and learn.

Angelo

Eric Johnson
03-21-2008, 11:22 AM
I agree with Bob an Wolters. I've even heard this book called "a pro's secret weapon" because so many folks start with the book and give up and then seek a pro.

Best book....for a complete beginner it would be Training Retrievers for the Marshes and Meadows by James Spenser. He's written several others that are part of a progression but this is the first.

Would it be possible for you to type your messages without capitalizing every word. They're hard to read when you compose them like that.

Eric

HuntinDawg
03-21-2008, 11:25 AM
Worst books? Water Dog by Wolters and Dobbs book. The paper would have been better used for Charmin.

Yeah, when I got my first lab I was unfortunate enough to get the advice to buy the books by Wolters. It is amazing that he became as an accomplised dog as he did. Between my poor training, lack of equiment and lack of good information he had the deck stacked against him. I would NEVER recommend the Wolters stuff to anyone. Back then (1995) there wasn't nearly the good info out there that there is now. There were no Lardy tapes and virtually no retriever training videos of any kind. Obviously there were no Smartworks books or videos either.

BIG DOG
03-21-2008, 12:27 PM
inmo water dog's worst atribute is early training all that obedience and spankings will only make a weak dog weaker then there is the no ff issue, mine made for good fire starter

lizard55033
03-21-2008, 12:36 PM
I really love the Fowl Dawg Series of DVD. They have helped me so far learn alot.

kiddcline
03-21-2008, 12:43 PM
Not trying to suck up to Amy, but "10 Minute Retriever" is the first book I recommend for anyone starting so they can get an idea of what to be expected without spending a ton of money.

As for Wolters, I actually used "Gun Dog" instead of "Water Dog" for my first lab. I know that it is backwords but I thought "Gun Dog" had better advice and tips. (Just not a fan of his discipline choices).

ducksoup
03-21-2008, 01:25 PM
"The Working Retriever" by Tom Quinn -- dated but useful -- certainly agree with Bob on Wolters IMHO -- might work for some but I think the whole point of the 49 day theory is overdone and that the book is too anti-collar for my liking

Burt Fosse
03-21-2008, 01:45 PM
Hey Pup, Fetch It Up!
by Bill Tarrant

Very good book for the early basics.

Mark Littlejohn
03-21-2008, 03:17 PM
Not trying to suck up to Amy, but "10 Minute Retriever" is the first book I recommend for anyone starting so they can get an idea of what to be expected without spending a ton of money.

As for Wolters, I actually used "Gun Dog" instead of "Water Dog" for my first lab. I know that it is backwords but I thought "Gun Dog" had better advice and tips. (Just not a fan of his discipline choices).

I agree that to help get a first-timer's training attitude started right, the Dahl's book is the best. I trained my first bird dog using Wolter's Gun Dog and Delmar Smith's book, and these helped me establish what I feel has been a good mindset towards dog training.

Frankly I might pick up, try and adopt an idea from almost any training book. I don't follow any 1 verbatum.

The worst? Any that recommend treats as motivation and a way to teach. Which reminds me...

Question: Does Lardy's puppy starter book (or maybe one he's endorsed?) advise using treats to teach a puppy to sit? I've got a buddy following it and he has problems already. I told him I didn't care if it was Lardy, Carr, Graham, Tarrant or JHC, don't use treats to train!

ml

HuntinDawg
03-21-2008, 03:31 PM
Question: Does Lardy's puppy starter book (or maybe one he's endorsed?) advise using treats to teach a puppy to sit? I've got a buddy following it and he has problems already. I told him I didn't care if it was Lardy, Carr, Graham, Tarrant or JHC, don't use treats to train!

ml

Well I know Lardy recommends the video by Jackie Mertens "Sound Begginings of Retriever Training." It is a very good video. She uses treats extensively in this video, but she is training PUPPIES, not DOGS. The way she (and some others) use the treats with PUPPIES, it makes learning fun and the pups don't even know they are learning. It works very well. I have used treats to teach my last two pups to sit, come when called, get in heeling position on right and left, down, kennel and many other things in a way that gives the pups a very positive attitude toward learning and toward interaction with me. Once you are getting a decent response you can begin to use praise as a substitute for the treats and wean them off the treats (at least for known commands). Later on you can start to enforce these things as COMMANDS, but because of the early treat training, the meanings of the commands are already known and they just have to learn that compliance is required even when no treats are present, which is no big deal. I'm talking about getting very snappy responses to ALL of the commands I've mentioned before the pup is 12 weeks old.

Mike Peters-labguy23
03-21-2008, 03:51 PM
Best-Dahl's 10 Minute Retriever


Worst-Wolter's Water Dog

stephen brown
03-21-2008, 04:00 PM
Retriever Training for the Duck Hunter by Robert Milner. It's probably out of date but it's nicely laid out for "program" for a sound hunter.

Patrick Johndrow
03-21-2008, 04:05 PM
Water Dog by Wolters best and worst...best because it was the first book I read about training retrievers...worst because it is full of crap.

A_Fever
03-21-2008, 04:08 PM
The Worst: Working Retrievers by Quinn. Quinn eloquently puts to page every Chesapeake Bay retriever stereo type you have ever heard of. Kinda ticked off this brown dog fan.

Mike Peters-labguy23
03-21-2008, 04:58 PM
Water Dog by Wolters best and worst...best because it was the first book I read about training retrievers...worst because it is full of crap.


Same story here, almost got me too discouraged with the time lines to keep training. Heck I picked my pup at 57 days old.....surprised he turned out OK.

Bud
03-21-2008, 05:07 PM
I first got interested in working with dogs when I had my Springer. I got hooked on the short lived Gun Dog Magazine tv series (not to be confused with Wolter's). They did feature Wolter and when I got my first labs he is who I started training with. Fortunately I got involved with a HRC club and recieved a lot of help. With my new pup I started to read and study more and found 10 minute retriever an excellent way to get started. Then Lardy and Graham also for more detail.
I liked Training retrievers to handle D.L. and Ann Walters also.




Question: Does Lardy's puppy starter book (or maybe one he's endorsed?) advise using treats to teach a puppy to sit? I've got a buddy following it and he has problems already. I told him I didn't care if it was Lardy, Carr, Graham, Tarrant or JHC, don't use treats to train!

ml


If I remember and heard correctly Mike does mention using treats as a motivator for training in either his marking or collar conditioning video and he is for it.

MooseGooser
03-21-2008, 05:39 PM
GOOSER"S GUIDE TO PRECISION SEAT REAMERS!

Boring,, but to the point!

Gooser

HuntinDawg
03-21-2008, 06:10 PM
GOOSER"S GUIDE TO PRECISION SEAT REAMERS!

Boring,, but to the point!

Gooser


Undeniably a classic work for those looking to train their dog to seat on a duck!

lablover
03-21-2008, 06:35 PM
Ya'll keep forgetting that Wolters was a marketing genius... not a dog trainer.

Personally I follow Lardy's methods. Tapes, articles, etc.
The tips and suggestions by Evan Graham that I have read are good also.

Jack Gwaltney's book is certainly worth the price and time to read.

The best, in my opinion, as a continuing series is a subscription to "Retrievers Online". If you train for competition, this subscription is a MUST!

Mark Littlejohn
03-21-2008, 09:22 PM
Water Dog by Wolters best and worst...best because it was the first book I read about training retrievers...worst because it is full of crap.

I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and defend Richard Wolters. Like another poster said, I first read and used "Gun Dog" back in the early '80s, and was pretty successful in training my pointers and springers.

Many years later, when I got my first retriever, I picked up Water Dog and quickly realized that this had to be outdated, which it is.

The fact that Wolters' books are still in print and still selling is quite a testament to his reputation. (I suspect that a lot of people are referred to his books by "old timers" who last trained a dog 20 years ago). Take into consideration that Wolters wrote Gun Dog almost 50 years ago, in 1961; I'm not even sure if e-collars existed then.

As far as rating Wolters' books among the "best" today, of course not (heck, the man died 15 years ago...). But in their time, his were head and shoulders above anything else available.


Richard A. Wolters Dog Training Expert, 73


Published: October 14, 1993

Richard A. Wolters, an expert on training hunting dogs, died on Saturday after he landed an ultralight aircraft that he had been piloting near his farm in Hanover, Va. He was 73.

The cause was a heart attack, his family said.

Mr. Wolters wrote a number of books on dogs, including three published by Dutton, "Gun Dog" (1961), "Family Dog" (1963) and "Beau, From Both Ends of His Leash" (1966), and "The Labrador Retriever" (Petersen Prints, 1982).

Mr. Wolters was also a chemical engineer, a parachutist, a glider pilot, a teacher of art history and photography and a magazine editor who wrote extensively about dogs and field sports. He especially admired Labradors for their diligence, devotion, stamina, pleasant temperament and ability to become family pets.

Mr. Wolters was born in Philadelphia and graduated from Pennsylvania State University.

He is survived by his wife, Olive; a son, Roger, of Landrum, S.C., and a daughter, Gretchen D'Beck, of Ossining, N.Y.

ml

Patrick Johndrow
03-21-2008, 09:35 PM
I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and defend Richard Wolters. Like another poster said, I first read and used "Gun Dog" back in the early '80s, and was pretty successful in training my pointers and springers.

The fact that Wolters' books are still in print and still selling is quite a testament to his reputation. (I suspect that a lot of people are referred to his books by "old timers" who last trained a dog 20 years ago). Take into consideration that Wolters wrote Gun Dog almost 50 years ago, in 1961; I'm not even sure if e-collars existed then.



2 Dogs you are correct and my post does fail to give the man his respect....I tell people Water Dog is to retriever training like the 30/30 Winchester is to Moose hunting…more dogs have been and will continue to be trained using Water Dog than any other book written on the subject of retriever training. I met a kid this past waterfowl season was training his first dog using Water Dog.

Lonny Taylor
03-21-2008, 09:42 PM
I have a trivia question for you folks. What does Bill Tarrant and Jim Spencer have in common other than they both wrote books about dog training?

LT

Lance-CO
03-21-2008, 09:57 PM
Same story here, almost got me too discouraged with the time lines to keep training. Heck I picked my pup at 57 days old.....surprised he turned out OK.

If I remember it right, Wolter also said that each dog and trainers have different maturity/experience and different timeframe of training.



I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and defend Richard Wolters. Like another poster said, I first read and used "Gun Dog" back in the early '80s, and was pretty successful in training my pointers and springers.

Many years later, when I got my first retriever, I picked up Water Dog and quickly realized that this had to be outdated, which it is.

The fact that Wolters' books are still in print and still selling is quite a testament to his reputation. (I suspect that a lot of people are referred to his books by "old timers" who last trained a dog 20 years ago). Take into consideration that Wolters wrote Gun Dog almost 50 years ago, in 1961; I'm not even sure if e-collars existed then.

As far as rating Wolters' books among the "best" today, of course not (heck, the man died 15 years ago...). But in their time, his were head and shoulders above anything else available.

ml

Thank you 2-dog, it's my exact sentiment too. As a former Amish trainer, Wolter book helped me get started w/ my first lab. Furthermore, I'm just giving him some credit as a pioneer in dog training. Did I follow every step in his book? Of course not.



Angelo

Goosehunterdog
03-21-2008, 10:15 PM
I really like The 10 Minute Retriever book for beginners..

I also like Sound Beginnings DVD by Jackie Mertens for puppies..

Mike Lardy's Program is as good as you can get!!!

I also like the book / DVD Retrievers From The Inside Out by Butch Goodwin..

I am not a fan of Waterdog..I think it is outdated...

David Maddox
03-21-2008, 10:42 PM
Favorite: Tom Quinn (its a classic)

Worst: Water Dog (outdated)

Best: combo of Lardy/Smartworks(step by step progressions-awesome)

I definately agree with Bob and the other critics of Wolters' "Water Dog", but, disagree when it comes to Dobbs' book "Tritronics Retriever Training". I actually used the book from start to finish and had some success (2/MHs).I do have to admit that it might have been due to the fact that both were VERY well bred, and talented.

greg magee
03-22-2008, 03:25 AM
I personally think the loveland and rutherford book is the best bang for the buck. I used to give it to all my clients back when I was breeding a lot.

Peake
03-22-2008, 03:40 AM
I have a trivia question for you folks. What does Bill Tarrant and Jim Spencer have in common other than they both wrote books about dog training?

LT

Lonny,

They both served as judges at the very first UKC/HRC Hunt???

Peake

PS The Best Book(s)

1) The Ten Minute Retriever - the Dahl's

2) Training Retrievers to Handle - D.L. Walters
________
How To Turn Off Iolite (http://vaporizers.net)

Pete
03-22-2008, 06:07 AM
The book you choose to learn from should match your experience level.
I haven't read that many but the ones I have read could help people who have not yet reached the level that they are reading.
For a new person just starting out with no knowledge,, only interest,,I think gun dog/waterdog is a great book. Granted after you have worked through it then its time to move to the next level.

People new to training must first build habits of being consistant,,learning when to correct and praise and learning how much to correct and praise.

The dynamics of how a dog learns and reacts to stimulous will come over time as you remain faithful to learning to train more efficiently and acurately.

We tend to forget what we were first like when we started. We had excitement,interest and over zeleousness which greatly outweighed experience and workable knowledge.

I think its better to learn the effects of what you do and build a reaction time to effectally communicated to the dog before you learn the more advanced stuff. Get good at arithmatic before you do algebra and eventaully if you dedicate enough time and thought you will be doing physics .

Learn what you can from whatever you read. After a while you will be able to sift through the subjectional opinions and what is fact. It all takes time. Some people are naturals and their applicable knowledge excelerates quickly. Other people take forever to learn the simplest things. It doesn't matter.
Are you enjoying what you are doing? Thats all that matters.

So I would suggest get a bunch of books a bottle of wine and a fireplace and enjoy your evenings. No the TV did not tell me to say that:razz:

Pete

BonMallari
03-22-2008, 08:57 AM
Best " Working Retriever by Tom Quinn" but i am partial to that because i have met Tom and had the pleasure of seeing FC-AFC Nakai Anny(sp) and they were a formidable team and he is a very good guy.

never read a bad book because i dont think there is one, just because i dont agree with the author i respect their guts to put their reputation in print for all of us amateurs to criticize.....

gundogpa
03-22-2008, 09:24 AM
I think if you are talking upland hunting with a retriever than it has to be The Labrador Shooting Dog by mike Gould.

Like many others i used water dog or game dog or whatever.......just didn't know better at the time.

MDbaydog
03-22-2008, 09:51 AM
I have a trivia question for you folks. What does Bill Tarrant and Jim Spencer have in common other than they both wrote books about dog training?

LT

They have owned and trained all three of the main Retriever breeds??? (Labs,CBR Goldens)

Kevin WI
03-22-2008, 09:52 AM
For my first time out of the box I used "Training Retrievers for Marshes and Meadow's" by James Spencer. I thought it to be a very informative book and broke down drills very nicely and did not lead me astray.

Gun_Dog2002
03-22-2008, 09:59 AM
Walk with Wick Volume 1

/Paul

2tall
03-22-2008, 10:04 AM
Lonnie, are you going to tell us the Tarrant/Spencer connection??? Eagerly awaiting, I have enjoyed both of their books.

slnewton
03-22-2008, 10:32 AM
I think Wolters book is being misrepresented here as an AKC hunt test/Field trial training guide. His intent was to be able to produce a quality hunting dog for the everyday man. A man who works 40 to 50 hours a week, Mon-Fri. A man who wants to enjoy his time with his family and his hobbies but has to split that time and also work for a living, a man who doesn't want a pro to raise his dog. He helped create NAHRA which came about as an option to the pro heavy AKC events that he thought the everyday man had little time or money to compete in anymore. I have Tom Quinn's book right here in front of me and it does not contain any section that outlines how to actually hunt your dog in a real life situation. As for Lardy, I don't recall to much in his tapes either that is specific to hunting a dog in the field. These dogs were originally bred to hunt. I think many of us have lost that perspective. I have heard at hunt test a pro say he would never actually hunt his good test dog because it would pick up bad habits. I know of others who have bought a hunting dog and it ends up with a pro who takes it down south to warmer climates to train year round and the dog never does get to pick up a wild bird that he flushed or swim for a downed duck after watching it circle the decoys a few times before locking up and coming in. I personally incorporate alot of different approaches to training my dog from Wolters to Lardy to Spencer to Quinn. They all have useful information you just have to pick and choose which is relavent to your situation. I enjoy the competitions with my dog and use many of the trial training approaches to get my dog through difficult concepts of a test/trial but to me my dog is first and foremost a hunting dog. Quartering a field, staying in range, not chasing a missed bird, trailing a running bird or wounded bird, sitting to flush, being steady as you are calling and the birds are cirlcing around to come in to your decoys or just plain watching the horizon for a dark spot that just may be a bird these are some things that are important to me that are not in most technical training books/tapes.

Bubba
03-22-2008, 11:24 AM
Quartering a field, staying in range, not chasing a missed bird, trailing a running bird or wounded bird, sitting to flush, being steady as you are calling and the birds are cirlcing around to come in to your decoys or just plain watching the horizon for a dark spot that just may be a bird these are some things that are important to me that are not in most technical training books/tapes.

Problem is that this is the kind of stuff that you can teach a dog that has a solid foundation in an afternoon.

Wolters material won't get you to that state.
Everytime I see this debate come up, I remember Richard McDonald (who actually trained and ran all of Wolters dogs). Richard will tell you that he had a deal with Wolters - "If you will refrain from training dogs, I will refrain from writing books. EVERY one of Wolters dogs was a complete outlaw when he was running them, only reasonably civilized after McDonald had them for a while.

Wolters books do have their use though- been holding up that end of the couch where the leg broke off for a lot of years now.

Back to your regular programming now regards

Bubba

afdahl
03-22-2008, 12:40 PM
These dogs were originally bred to hunt. I think many of us have lost that perspective.

There's a lot in your post I take issue with, but I'll focus just on this statement. The Labrador retriever was originally imported to the US from the UK as part of the field trial sport, which was itself imported wholesale by a few wealthy individuals. Subsequent to that the sport expanded to include more water work, and the dogs began to be used for American style rough shooting or what we call "hunting," as opposed to the driven shoots for which they were used in the UK.

Amy Dahl

slnewton
03-22-2008, 01:19 PM
Since same was abundant in the island and a good hunting dog could provide food to supplement their fish diet it is believed the early settlers brought or imported dogs hunting stock from home. Accordingly, both the larger and smaller Newfoundland dogs had to be introduced.

In 1662, W.E. Cormack, a native of St. John's made a journey on foot across Newfoundland. In his account of his journey he saw small water dogs which he describes as "admirably trained as retrievers in fowling and are otherwise useful - - the smooth or shorthaired dog 15 preferred because in frosty weather, the long haired kind become incumbered with ice on coming out off the water."

Mark Littlejohn
03-22-2008, 05:13 PM
Problem is that this is the kind of stuff that you can teach a dog that has a solid foundation in an afternoon.


Bubba

Wrong.


The Labrador retriever was originally imported to the US from the UK as part of the field trial sport, which was itself imported wholesale by a few wealthy individuals.

Amy Dahl

Wrong.

trog
03-22-2008, 05:51 PM
I take exception to those that say field trial/hunt test dogs don't hunt. I have a field champion which is a very competitive trial dog. He is very genetically clean, very good in the house, produces very smart good looking pups. Now he hunts as a pheasant guide dog about 50 days a year and has done so for 8 years. Plus he has gone to SD hunting wild birds for 8 years. I have trouble with people that say these dogs won't hunt or are unaceptable in the house.

Sorry but I think that today's labradors are the smartest, best dogs, they have ever been.
Therefore I think the previous posts are WRONG -
I have four highly bred field trial dogs - Abe, Lean Mac, Lean Mac, dogs that hunt one of which has been in the field over 500 days with me. Not many people can say that
Please pick a program that works - Mike Lardy's program is working - Some people write books and don't train - you want materials from someone who has "walked the walk"
I have almost every book and training tape in my collection and have trained/trialed/hunted for over 40 years. Please don't knock it if you haven't observed or been there.

Chris Atkinson
03-22-2008, 06:07 PM
Trog,

I have a pup out of your FC (Lean Mac son) bred to an Abe daughter. That puppy sure made me proud this morning.

If he doesn't do well between today and 24 months in these derbies, it is the trainer's fault, not the dog's or his genetics. I really like this FC Candlewood's Meet Joe Black pup.

Chris

Buzz
03-22-2008, 06:24 PM
Problem is that this is the kind of stuff that you can teach a dog that has a solid foundation in an afternoon.

Bubba



Wrong.



I think he was saying a dog with a SOLID FOUNDATION. Say through TT and swim-by, really solid. Then, those other things are like falling off a log.

Bubba
03-22-2008, 06:48 PM
I think he was saying a dog with a SOLID FOUNDATION. Say through TT and swim-by, really solid. Then, those other things are like falling off a log.

That's pretty close. I think that once a dog has all the basics down pat and is operating at or above a Master level that teaching the "hunting" stuff is trivial by comparison. Teaching quartering/steady to flush/trailing -all the upland stuff is literally an afternoons work. Teaching a dog this stuff before they have the solid foundation is not only waaaaaayy harder, it's in some cases counterproductive.
All my dogs hunt and that's not going to change. What has changed is the order that I try to introduce the tools. It's easier for them to learn to "hunt 'em up" AFTER they know how to run a 400 yard blind. They come from the factory with all the skills to be an asset in putting dead things in the bag, it takes a lot of time and effort to polish those skills to enable the critter to be a first class hunting machine.
Teaching a NFC to hunt is a whole lot easier than teaching 98% of the dogs that you see at the boat launch at odark thirty to NFC.

Just one rednecks opinion regards

Bubba

Richard Halstead
03-22-2008, 07:19 PM
I have a trivia question for you folks. What does Bill Tarrant and Jim Spencer have in common other than they both wrote books about dog training?

LT

My opinion of these guys is those that can't train a dog do better on writing how to. The problem is their books serve as their soapbox for their opinions.

Pete
03-22-2008, 07:24 PM
Babba
A big big major problem
Many A new person have never heard of FF ,single T double T,,this ,that and the other thing. Never mind doing it.
Lets learn how to pet first and come when called. And maby jump in the truck:razz:
Pete

Pheasanttomeetyou
03-22-2008, 09:45 PM
Sometimes, you have to read and view a lot of videos, and then select specifics from each of them that make sence to you.

I have all of Spencers books and found them to be very limited. I would, however, invest in his [Spencer] Retriever Marking Tests. I'd skip Marshes and Meadows and his Blind/Marking Training Drills Books. Other books on my list do the same thing -- but better.

Quinn's Retriever Training Book is a very fine investment -- if nothing more, his short biographical stories are wonderful.

I think that the Jim & Phyllis Dobbs' Retriever Training book by Tritronics is indispensible. Jim & Phyllis were having a tough time trying to organize all their thoughts. But Alice Woodruff came along and help put their ideas into a comprehensive, well organized training book. They begin with training the pup to learn and then prepareing the pup of e-collar conditioning. I personally prefer their approach to collar conditioning to that of Mike Lardy's, though both deserve serious study.They talk about designing a FF table. Their beginning marking and water work section is great. I love that book!

I absolutely adore Evan's Smart Works books and videos. You would't waste a dime on anything that man produces.

I honestly don't know anything about his accomplishments, but I like Charley Journey's Finished Retriever book. I particularly like his approach to the double-T. He gives a great step-by-step discription to water forcing.

Charley begins his book with a discussion of learning how to read your pup. You don't really see this very much and its worthwhile to take notes and try to apply his ideas to your own dog.

Mike Lardy has 2-volumns of his Retriever Journal Articles. Well worth the investment.

You really must get DL and Ann Walters classic: Training Retrievers to Handle. The chapter on baseball drills -- A MUST!

Sorry Amy, but I can't recommend either of your books overall. You have some good ideas, but most of your training suggestions can be found in other books.

A must subscription: Retrievers Online

A good subscription: Retriever Journal.

I get both and learn lots from both.

Richard Wolters Water Dog book is worth getting. It is outdated, but his training philosophy is worth a peek.

I'd go with Mike Lardy's Videos -- all of them.

I'd look at Rex Carr's videos.

I haven't had a chance to view some of the newest videos out in the market.

Have fun!

Brad Overstreet
03-22-2008, 10:55 PM
Who needs a book. Pick up the phone and call some trainers. We all talk all the time. Somebody I talk to daily about training has walked in my shoes already. Please do not misunderstand me. I love to read. At the same time if i spent all my time reading I would spend no time training. I have 3 key people who have trained more and better dogs than I could hope to. They are but a phone call away. Follow that up with a thank you card and something nice and you are set. These people have actual experience in dealing with whatever is going on. And the one thing no book I have seen talks about is it is never the dogs fault. If my dog is weak at something it is MY fault not the dog. So join a club, make some friends, and get alot more minutes on your cell phone plan.

P.S. if you want to talk dog training PM me and I will give you my number.

Gun_Dog2002
03-23-2008, 01:05 AM
That's pretty close. I think that once a dog has all the basics down pat and is operating at or above a Master level that teaching the "hunting" stuff is trivial by comparison. Teaching quartering/steady to flush/trailing -all the upland stuff is literally an afternoons work. Teaching a dog this stuff before they have the solid foundation is not only waaaaaayy harder, it's in some cases counterproductive.
All my dogs hunt and that's not going to change. What has changed is the order that I try to introduce the tools. It's easier for them to learn to "hunt 'em up" AFTER they know how to run a 400 yard blind. They come from the factory with all the skills to be an asset in putting dead things in the bag, it takes a lot of time and effort to polish those skills to enable the critter to be a first class hunting machine.
Teaching a NFC to hunt is a whole lot easier than teaching 98% of the dogs that you see at the boat launch at odark thirty to NFC.

Just one rednecks opinion regards

Bubba

Occasionally you actually spew something of value and are worth more than just a guy to buy the beer.....

/Paul

Bubba
03-23-2008, 08:45 AM
Yeah well, you know what they say about blind hawgs and acorns.

Monkeys and typewriters regards

Bubba

ErinsEdge
03-23-2008, 09:07 AM
My favorite book for the average hunter or beginning basics book for almost everyone is Cherylon Loveland's book Retriever Puppy Training, the Right Start for Hunting which is finally back in print. I beg the Water Dog loyalists to buy it because it gives a sequence and not a schedule which can and does discourage and ruin puppies with a novice trainer that doesn't know any better and is trying to steady a dog at 12 weeks. I also don't like the Dobbs' book "Tritronics Retriever Training" the first edition which uses that constant nicking approach which I also think has ruined puppies with someone that follows the book to a T.

fred
03-23-2008, 09:16 AM
I have recently acquired Building a Retriever, by Carol Cassity. I am a very amatuer trainer, and this book has helped elevate me and my dog to a higher level.
Damon

Illinois Bob
03-23-2008, 09:33 AM
I have to defend Wolters here.I agree that it is very outdated and there is so much better to read out there now but it is the book that alot started with and got them searching for more.It was really the best available that I knew of when I had my first Lab in the mid-eighties.I gave mine away to a kid in Iowa.When we were out there hunting there. He loved hunting with my dog.He never hunted over a dog before.I sent him mine when he said he wanted to train his dog.When I got my current dog it was replaced with a new one.This time reading it I tossed it aside for more up to date books or videos.Wolters other book on the history of labradors is a classic in my opinion.The new stuff is so much better though.I like Mike Lardys' videos and articles,Retrievers from the Inside Out by Butch Goodwin,The Tri-Tronix Retriever Training Book and read what ever else I can find(magazines,other books,RTF,etc...) and nothing beats training with others that have been at it for awhile whe you can.The old books too are very interesting if you can find them.The one by Charles Morgan is great reading.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t231/trackerlab/CopyofIMG_4421.jpg

2tall
03-23-2008, 11:11 AM
Never did hear back from Lonnie regarding the Tarrant/Spencer connection. He's such a tease.

I am somewhat surprised, after all these years, that Tarrant is still as controversial as ever. I understand that way back when, he had his differences with the hunt test groups there were definitely "sides" chosen. But he has been dead for years now, and none of the politics take away the fact that he was a very talented writer and someone who truly loved dogs. His book, Hey Pup Fetch it Up was the very first retriever book I ever picked up. I still find some of his common sense approach about puppies useful as well as entertaining. Remember the e collars he opposed so vehemently were far different tools than they are today.

Anyway, he doesn't need me to defend him, I am just curious why all the hard feelings today?

Patrick Johndrow
03-23-2008, 12:05 PM
Never did hear back from Lonnie regarding the Tarrant/Spencer connection. He's such a tease.


Maybe he is charging his bark collars...sorry Lonnie I couldn't help my self..happy Easter all

Rick_C
03-23-2008, 12:26 PM
Who needs a book. Pick up the phone and call some trainers. We all talk all the time. Somebody I talk to daily about training has walked in my shoes already. Please do not misunderstand me. I love to read. At the same time if i spent all my time reading I would spend no time training. I have 3 key people who have trained more and better dogs than I could hope to. They are but a phone call away. Follow that up with a thank you card and something nice and you are set. These people have actual experience in dealing with whatever is going on. And the one thing no book I have seen talks about is it is never the dogs fault. If my dog is weak at something it is MY fault not the dog. So join a club, make some friends, and get alot more minutes on your cell phone plan.

P.S. if you want to talk dog training PM me and I will give you my number.

Being new to retriever training, currently going through FF for the first time, I would mostly agree with this post. The advice, encouragement and hands on help I have received from more experienced trainers has been invaluable. Not to mention the ability to pick up the phone and get an immediate response to a question/problem I am having.

That said, I have read or am in the process of reading everything I can get my hands on as well as watching DVD's to learn all I can about the dogs in general and training specifically.

Books and DVD's are great in that they give you access to people/experience you normally wouldn't have, much like RTF in that by asking a question you will normally see many different answers/opinions which give you more methods to try until you find the one that clicks for you and your dog. One size does not always fit all.

The downside of books and DVD's are that, while they do a great job of walking you step by step through a training method, they rarely help when things don't go exactly as described. Or, when they do cover training problems, they can't possibly cover every situation that may come up.

This is where a training group, good pro are invaluable because they've usually already worked through the problem you are experiencing and can help you through it and get you back on track.

The bottom line IMO is that the more information you can gather the better. There are books I have read that I wouldn't follow step by step as my "training manual" but that doesn't mean that there wasn't something in them that I could use, now or in the future, that made them worth reading. But books and DVD's alone cannot replace the hands on experience of a good training group or pro that will let you pick their brain and/or get you back on track when you need it.

Brad Overstreet
03-23-2008, 02:40 PM
Let me add something to my previous post. I love to read and read a lot of books on how to do things. I have also started reading books on dog training only to find my situation does not apply to their timetable are sequence. I am sure somebody will get it mostly right one day. However, take a little time and get to know some trainers. Buy them dinner, throw their birds, help them train. While this is not possible for everybody I recommend trying first. If you can find no one then read as much as possible and keep rereading to make sure you can extract every nugget of info in the book. Remember the books are just one person's opinion on how to do it. Read many books then form your own as you go. Then maybe one day you can write a book. I even find myself taking notes as I read these books (opinions) on how to train.


I have found no book to answer all questions except the bible.

micha
03-23-2008, 08:13 PM
British training for American retrievers is the best one I have ever used.May raise some eyebrows with field trialers but it worked for me Written by Vic Barlow

mchjville
03-24-2008, 03:52 PM
Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Matt Horne, I live in eastern North Carolina. I recently got a new chocolate female pup, Allie. She is currently 4months old. This is my first dog so needless to say I am busy trying to learn everything I can without messing her up in the meantime. I have read the posts on this topic and appreciate everyone's info. My collection of training videos and books is growing everyday. I was curious if anyone had seen or used Danny Farmer's "Basics" or "Problems and Solutions"

HuntinDawg
03-24-2008, 04:39 PM
Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Matt Horne, I live in eastern North Carolina. I recently got a new chocolate female pup, Allie. She is currently 4months old. This is my first dog so needless to say I am busy trying to learn everything I can without messing her up in the meantime. I have read the posts on this topic and appreciate everyone's info. My collection of training videos and books is growing everyday. I was curious if anyone had seen or used Danny Farmer's "Basics" or "Problems and Solutions"

Matt,

Congrats on your new pup. If you don't already have the video by Jackie Mertens "Sound Beginnings," I highly recommend that you get it. Then you need to be following a training PROGRAM, rather than doing a little of this and a little of that. A program will progress in a step by step manner, with each step preparing the dog for the next step and with each step building on the last step. This will make it easier on you and the dog. I would recommend SmartWork vol. 1 (book). Danny Farmer's Problems and Solutions is very good, but that is what the title says and not a program. I haven't seen his basics DVD, but I'm sure it is good....not sure that it will outline a complete program though. The DVD's are great for showing things that are just really hard to describe or understand without seeing it...but you still need a program.

Also, remember to really limit the retrieves while she is young. At this age, limit to 2-3 retrieves per session so that you stop with the pup still wanting more....and KEEP IT FUN right now. Also, join a good retriever club in your area and go to their training sessions. You want to introduce her to water as soon as possible, but you want to make sure the water has warmed up a good bit. I think they recommend the water being over 60 degrees, but I can't remember for sure. Intoduce her to birds as soon as possible in a controlled environment and make it a happy, fun experience for her.

Good luck w/ your pup.

Georgia.Belle
03-25-2008, 08:52 AM
Teaching a NFC to hunt is a whole lot easier than teaching 98% of the dogs that you see at the boat launch at odark thirty to NFC.

Just one rednecks opinion regards

Bubba


We rednecks can agree on that point.

Matt Horne, if you are in Jacksonville I might have some books that you can borrow. PM me.

Mike

obxdog
03-26-2008, 11:52 AM
Know where in this thread did I see James Lamb Free book "Training Your Retriever" mentioned. Last updated in 1977, it is the book that almost all of your top notch pro's base their training program on. Rex Carr, Bill Tarrant and Mike Lardy's training sequence and methods incorporate almost everything Free is writing about. It is a timeless book that the pro's depend on. It also has a great history of field trials in the U.S.
This book was out there long before Wolter's wrote his books, but like someone said Wolter's was a marketing guru not a dog trainer.
Although outdated in some areas it is a book worth reading, just to see who really came up with the "modern" training methods of today.

Kirsty Gray
03-31-2008, 08:42 AM
For my first retriever, a Golden, I loved James Spencer's Training Retrievers for Marshes and Meadows. He made the training program easy to understand and he reinforced the need to progress only as fast as an individual dog's capability. My favourite Spencer quotes: "It takes as long as it takes" and "A short success is better than a long failure".

When I got my Flatcoat pup I bought Jackie Merten's "Sound Beginnings" DVD. That really re-aligned my expectations for my pup. The sheer volume of things that are achievable with a little pup, all positive, when its brain is a sponge for knowledge, is amazing. Pup and I had a great time rambling across paddocks, doing water intros, teaching lines across cover and roads and progressing to short doubles before he was 4 months old. I thank Jackie for the fact that my pup had his first Novice trials at 9 months old and placed 2nd in both with very good scores. I also think conditioning lines at such a young age helps to instill lining ie non-cheating, behaviours in the dog.

My latest purchase has been Carol Cassity's "Building a Retriever". The content is excellent and I appreciate her attitude and approach to training. She would do well, though, to pay a publisher to do a better job of the layout and binding. It doesn't "sit well" in your hands when you read it and has a cheap, amateurish feel to it. Shame really because I recommend it to anyone who'll listen! Not really for a beginner though...

Lonny Taylor
04-02-2008, 09:02 AM
Folks,

I am so sorry to take so long to answer my trivia question. I have been training down in Texas and just got back to KS and this got moved to products so here is your answer.

Both Bill and Jim are/were residents of Wichita, KS. Bill was the one time mayor of Wichita. Both were very active members of the Jayhawk retriever club. As you might know the Jayhawk Club was the club that held the very first hunt test in the country. Jim Spencer was one of the master judges. It saddened me greatly to see that the Jayhawk club has decided not to do a hunt test this year.

Jim Spencer, who has been a very good client of mine has told me some great stories about Bill. One of them about a disagreement among Bill and a member of the Jayhawk club, who was a game warden. The game warden knew that bill was a avid waterfowler and watched him when he went hunting. When the opportunity came up and Bill went over the limit, he marched in his lease and ticketed him. Talk about taking a disagreement personal.....lol.

Jim Spencer is still very active with his writing but being 80 now makes is difficult for him to train. After "Gamble" passed on he decided that he was not up to starting another. Jim has always enjoyed his dogs and has suceeded with several breeds. I had the pleasure of helping him with Gamble to aquire his SH & MH titles. The dog was one of the best GR I have ever trained and ran. He qualified for the 2004 MN, but Jim is not a big fan of the Nationals and did not allow me to run him. If you ever have a chance to spend some time with Jim and visit with him you would find it truly wonderful. He did just have another book published and he featured the dog I put into the MN HOF "Smokie". I believe the book is published by Alpine Books.

Once again, sorry it took me so long to give you this answer.

regards

Lonny Taylor

Rite in the Rain
03-27-2009, 12:59 PM
I work for "Rite in the Rain", manufacturer's of all-weather writing products, and I'm hoping to get an honest opinion from you guys.

With the help of Dennis Voigt, a fellow trainer, we developed a Retriever Trainer's Kit to assist in, well, training Retrievers. Click through the link, check out the product and post your impressions. Feel free to email me or call if you prefer.

http://riteintherain.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=1742-KIT&Category=288351a9-4140-4fe9-9a0b-b6417564e684

Let me be clear, I'm not trying to sell you on this. I'm excited about our new Trainer's Kit and the Retriever Training community and am curious how it's being received. Thanks and I look forward to your responses! -Andrew

www.RiteintheRain.com - 253.922.5000 - andrew@RiteintheRain.com

Evan
03-27-2009, 03:58 PM
"Rite in the Rain"

I started using them a little over a month ago. I like them very much, and my fondness for them increases each training day.

Concise and to the point. Just enough to be thorough, in little enough space to be practical.

Evan

Santee Sunrise
04-18-2009, 10:51 AM
I am very new to the retriever world and I trained my first dog(a boykin named delta) purely from Lardy's marking and retriever DVD sets.If you really read into what he's saying and apply what you have learned correctly I don't see how you can go wrong.
I now also own Evan G's smartworks and have really been able to fill in some gaps.We recently got his definitive casting dvd and are now incorperating these drills into training.

Stuff I think can be harmful to the green trainer.Dobb's FF almost ruined my dog.
Wildrose way, wasting time and a weird approach IMO.

ErinsEdge
04-19-2009, 07:59 AM
I personally think the loveland and rutherford book is the best bang for the buck. I used to give it to all my clients back when I was breeding a lot.
Retriever Puppy Training: The Right Start for Hunting is the book I keep here for puppy buyers. It works for a hunting dog where they don't want to use a collar, or a good base for hunt test or field trial before the collar, and is done with pictures a kid can understand in a sequential manner without the timetable of Wolters. That timetable in Wolters is what gets novices in trouble because they become over concerned with steadyness and don't encourage desire and enthusiasm for the retrieve. I send notes out to people before they pick up their pups and also recommend a number of other excellent books and DVD's depending on where they want to go with their dog, but if they are just going to buy one book, I like the Loveland book.

As far as treats, I never believed in them but found out they really work in a little puppy for sit and especially here before they get to that 4 month independent stage.

Losthwy
05-04-2009, 08:31 AM
Everytime I see this debate come up, I remember Richard McDonald (who actually trained and ran all of Wolters dogs). Richard will tell you that he had a deal with Wolters - "If you will refrain from training dogs, I will refrain from writing books. EVERY one of Wolters dogs was a complete outlaw when he was running them, only reasonably civilized after McDonald had them for a while.

Wolters books do have their use though- been holding up that end of the couch where the leg broke off for a lot of years now.
Back to your regular programming now regards
Bubba
I still see Wolter's books in all the sporting goods stores, and folks still buying it. We still have puppy mills as well. It's an imperfect world for sure. At least you were lucky enough to find a good use for the book.

MooseGooser
05-04-2009, 09:03 PM
I really shouldnt post this,, but OH WELL!!:cool:

I have a problem with books!!
Yea I can get somethin out of them,, if I read and re-read it 400 times,, but by then the dog is 12!

My new mother in Law gave us a copy of "THE JOY OF SEX" for a wedding present!!:confused:

7 years later WE was divorced! I use that book now to throw at the T.V durin Bronco games!!

"TRAININ RETRIEVERS TO HANDLE!!""

WOW!!! I finally was able to find that book!! I couldnt wait to read it!!
Will you guys PLEASE be Honest with the Gooser??

The chapter on walking baseball!!:confused:?????????????

I have read and re-read that chapter over and over again,, and all it does is make me car sick!!! All the different turns and angles!! WHOLY CRUD!!

Seriously!! If I try and read it again,, I take a double dose a Dramamine first!! I CANT FIGURE THAT OUT AT ALL!!

And Ya should see me in the park tryin to practice it!!:confused:

MEBE I should just go back to teachin gold fish to swim in circles!!!


Videos Help me the Most!! A real live person doin the act sorta guy!!


Gooser

Howard N
05-04-2009, 09:19 PM
Those who can train, train. Those who can't train...









...write books on training.

mjh345
05-04-2009, 10:00 PM
Those who can train, train. Those who can't train...









...write books on training.

They also spend lots of time becoming IFC's

Losthwy
05-04-2009, 10:39 PM
They also spend lots of time becoming IFC's
I'll bite, IFC doesn't stand for Independent Film Council, what does it stand for?

Howard N
05-04-2009, 10:46 PM
Internet Field Champ

Losthwy
05-04-2009, 11:42 PM
Internet Field Champ
Thank you.

Hullabaloo93
05-05-2009, 09:43 AM
Sorry Amy, but I can't recommend either of your books overall. You have some good ideas, but most of your training suggestions can be found in other books.


For 95% of the dog owners out there who are training their own hunting dog while holding down an 8-5 and shuttling kids to baseball practice or ballet on the weekends, the Dahls books are perfect. While the 10 Minute Retriever is likely not going to take you all the way to a HRCH or MH title on your biscut eater, its strong focus on the front half of training is what most hunter/trainers need to spend their time mastering with their dog. Yes, I use many other materials by the authors you mention in your post because I am taking my dog to a Finished level. However, most of my hunting companions would be elated to have a dog that is reliably steady when hunting under all conditions, marks a double, goes when sent, stays in the area of the fall, chases down criples, delivers to hand, ignores the decoys, sits on a whistle and comes when called. The Dahls book can take them there and their second book can help them identify problems and correct along the way.

For the remaining 5% like me, welcome to the jungle.....

Thomas D
05-05-2009, 07:10 PM
I like the Charles Morgan book. Some real good, but old, stuff in there. Like taking a trip back thru time. I really like the electric mat to prevent creeping!

caglatz
06-08-2009, 06:48 PM
IMHO,
Best Books/Videos: (in no particular order)
1) 10 minute Retriever - Dahl
2) Hey Pup Fetch it Up - Tarrant
3) Smartworks - Evan Graham
4) Sound Beginnings - Meertins
I don't have any experience with Mike Lardy's stuff but I'm sure its up here too.

Worst Books:
1) Game Dog and Water Dog - but you know, you can learn something from these as well

... but then again, What do I know?

Ken McNutt
06-23-2009, 11:28 AM
I just read " Finished Dog" by Charles Journey, and found it to be one of the best yet. A lot of detailed step-by-step information. A few of his methods are a little different from the traditional, but they make sense. I also like Evan Graham's series. I started out training under the same pro that he did, so I recognize a lot of his methods, which have their foundation in Master Rex. I also like Tom Quinn's "Working Retriever." It's a broad coverage of the subject, but has some valuable basic training tips, plus some beautiful artwork by the author.

TexGold
06-24-2009, 07:02 PM
A lot of us ended up starting with Wolter's books because they are the only thing on the shelf at the local bookstore. I am starting to see some choices, Ten Minute Retriever has been on the shelf lately. But Lardy, Graham and some of the others aren't being distributed through the major outlets like Borders, or for that matter, I don't think Amazon.

I don't know that it's really fair to call Wolter's books the worst. One must consider the time at which they were written and what was going on then.

Losthwy
06-24-2009, 08:18 PM
I don't know that it's really fair to call Wolter's books the worst. One must consider the time at which they were written and what was going on then.
It think it is very fair, more than fair. And that is based on what is readily available today. And IMHO Wolters is hands down the worst. It was a very poor work when it was written. Wolter's book is in book stores, sporting goods stores. And easily available to unsuspecting masses. Lardy's, Farmers's, Roem etc. material will never be sold at Borders or Barnes and Noble. For only a very small, though very well inform, market for exist for their training instruction. Wolters is like what the "National Enquirer" is to newspapers and Twinkies are to food. James Lamb Free book from 1949 and D. L. Walters 1979 book are of more value to the serious dog trainer. Revolutionary and Rapid Wolters claims!!!!! Sorted of like it will work miracles, and new/improved from today's marketing firms. I'll give Wolters credit for one thing he sure knew how to market, wouldn't surprise me he invented "Pet Rocks".