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dback
11-16-2008, 10:20 AM
Arizona HB 2833 is a new bill introduced that requires all 'Handgun and Assault Weapon' bullets to have a seriel number ID on each round of Ammo. Penalty for tampering with the seriel number is a Class 3 Misdemeanor......bet that'll have the 'Armed Robbery and Murder' suspects shaking in their boots!

subroc
11-16-2008, 10:55 AM
We should be hearing about that “necessary first step” from the law makers any day now.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/hb2833p.htm (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/hb2833p.htm)

dback
11-16-2008, 11:19 AM
In fairness....it probably will never make it to the Govs desk even with the new members of the Legislature, but our lesbo, anti, gov WOULD sign it if it did make it there. Guess that would make me a BG by reloading....wonder what manufacturer would make 'AZ specific' ammo.

M Remington
11-16-2008, 11:57 AM
Arizona HB 2833 is a new bill introduced that requires all 'Handgun and Assault Weapon' bullets to have a seriel number ID on each round of Ammo. Penalty for tampering with the seriel number is a Class 3 Misdemeanor......bet that'll have the 'Armed Robbery and Murder' suspects shaking in their boots!

What's the downside to this?

Gun_Dog2002
11-16-2008, 12:12 PM
Beginning january 1, 2009, a manufacturer shall code all handgun and ASSAULT weapon AMMUNITION that is manufactured or sold in this state. This section applies to all calibers.


So what constitutes an Assault Weapon?

/Paul

M Remington
11-16-2008, 12:16 PM
I'm sure everyone has a different definition for assault weapon. But, this deals with serial numbers on bullets. What's wrong with that?

subroc
11-16-2008, 12:33 PM
I'm sure everyone has a different definition for assault weapon. But, this deals with serial numbers on bullets. What's wrong with that?

We generally make laws for a reason. What makes this law necessary? This will surely burden sportsmen and gun owners with additional costs for ammunition. Why is that even needed?

Feel free to take up the gun control side of the argument.

dback
11-16-2008, 12:39 PM
I'm sure everyone has a different definition for assault weapon. But, this deals with serial numbers on bullets. What's wrong with that?

T he seriel # will have no effect on CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!

R eloaders will not be able to practice their hobby!!!!!

O nly the good guys will be effected!!!!!

L ikely no one will manufacture Arizona Specific Ammo at a reasonable price!!!!!!

L eaves almost all hunting ammo in play (even goose loads)!!!!!

Gun_Dog2002
11-16-2008, 01:14 PM
My question would be......How will it help track criminals any better? For the most part if a criminal drives to aother town, pays cash and walks out, the number won't help track him down. It will tell them when the bullet was made and where it was shipped, nothing more. Did you notice they are going to charge the ammo makers the cost for it on each bullet.. and the ammo makers will have to create new machines to even do that work. Seems to me its all about putting cost on the manufacturers...


/Paul

dback
11-16-2008, 01:32 PM
My question would be......How will it help track criminals any better? For the most part if a criminal drives to aother town, pays cash and walks out, the number won't help track him down. It will tell them when the bullet was made and where it was shipped, nothing more. Did you notice they are going to charge the ammo makers the cost for it on each bullet.. and the ammo makers will have to create new machines to even do that work. Seems to me its all about putting cost on the manufacturers...


/Paul

Actually...in the full text of the bill it says that there must be a matching seriel # on the casing/brass. Therefore, machines would have too be reworked for the brass also. I can see it now.... a Police Officer would need to dissassemble a round to see if the seriel # on the brass and projectile base match. Gonna get pretty hard to read those numbers on the base of a .224 projectile after very many of them have been produced;-)

Gun_Dog2002
11-16-2008, 02:20 PM
Actually this bill was intruduced in Feb 2008 and is now dead....

http://www.azcdl.org/html/2008_bills.html#hb2833


/Paul

Bob Gutermuth
11-16-2008, 02:23 PM
There is enough non numbered ammo out there that the crooks would not need to buy any of the tattle tale stuff for years. Only honest people obey the law anyhow.

M Remington
11-16-2008, 02:26 PM
T he seriel # will have no effect on CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!

R eloaders will not be able to practice their hobby!!!!!

O nly the good guys will be effected!!!!!

L ikely no one will manufacture Arizona Specific Ammo at a reasonable price!!!!!!

L eaves almost all hunting ammo in play (even goose loads)!!!!!

Obviously someone thinks tracking serial numbers will have an effect on criminals. Following your logic, why have license plates for cars, boats, etc.?

If one crime is solved as result of this, who cares about an increase in reloading costs?

I would say that ammunition is already unreasonably priced (I shot trap this morning and the shells were $6 a box).

I don't care if it leaves hunting ammo in play. Killing a goose is not illegal. Shooting a store owner is.

dback
11-16-2008, 02:31 PM
Actually this bill was intruduced in Feb 2008 and is now dead....

http://www.azcdl.org/html/2008_bills.html#hb2833


/Paul

No Paul...I wish you were right. One of my very best friends works in the Govs office and because some seats were lost by Repubs the sponsors are trying again to push it through. As I said before, I doubt it will ever make it to her desk but just the fact that such a bill could find four sponsors bothers me.....especially in this climate.

***I should have stated in the original post Paul is correct in that their first attempt at this did not make it out of committee. Gov stated on a radio talk show that if it made it to her she would sign it. The sponsors have a renewed vigor but have gained only a couple more votes so I hope it never sees the light of day.***

YardleyLabs
11-16-2008, 02:57 PM
Obviously someone thinks tracking serial numbers will have an effect on criminals. Following your logic, why have license plates for cars, boats, etc.?

If one crime is solved as result of this, who cares about an increase in reloading costs?

I would say that ammunition is already unreasonably priced (I shot trap this morning and the shells were $6 a box).

I don't care if it leaves hunting ammo in play. Killing a goose is not illegal. Shooting a store owner is.

There's someone who thinks almost anything is a good idea -- doesn't mean we should do it. When I did a lot of target shooting, My son and I shot over 10000 rounds per year. Reloading saved over $1000/year for pistol ammo and that much again for rifle. For me the cost would have been prohibitive. Since adding serial numbers would also increase manufacturing costs, the financial impact would be greater. There would also be a question of how a serial number would be added without affecting bullet accuracy and still be useful in identifying the source of a bullet after it had fragmented in use. It seems to me that this is aimed more at harassing legal purchasers of legal ammo than it is at solving any crimes.

Terry Britton
11-16-2008, 03:24 PM
Any bullet I can think of, .222, .243, .270 , and so forth practically deforms into nothing. How will serial numbers help in tracking anything?

Are they going to require a # on every piece of shot? You know some assault weaopons are shotguns....

K G
11-16-2008, 04:30 PM
It seems to me that this is aimed more at harassing legal purchasers of legal ammo than it is at solving any crimes.


On the nosey! ;-)

With each passing day, I get a stronger and more ominous feeling that we're about to see more laws enacted to legislate minutiae than we've ever had before, and more government agencies to enforce them. Sorta like "well, now we're here...let's do something, even if it's wrong....."

:cool:............................................ ..............................................

kg

subroc
11-16-2008, 05:25 PM
Obviously someone thinks tracking serial numbers will have an effect on criminals. Following your logic, why have license plates for cars, boats, etc.?

If one crime is solved as result of this, who cares about an increase in reloading costs?

I would say that ammunition is already unreasonably priced (I shot trap this morning and the shells were $6 a box).

I don't care if it leaves hunting ammo in play. Killing a goose is not illegal. Shooting a store owner is.

WoW!

This is the logic used by not only those in the gun control lobby and Brady campaign; this is someone that is a gun owner in the United States.

He can afford ammunition so to hell with you.

He doesn’t even want to know the genesis of the law:


Obviously someone thinks tracking serial numbers will have an effect on criminals...

It doesn’t matter who the someone is or what their motives are or even if the law is a good one or not. Here is a gun owner in the United States that believes restrictions and inconvenience to honest gun owners, without cause, is the solution to no stated problem. He advocates this course of action without reason.

How do you feel about wire tapping foreign terrorists?

Captain Mike D
11-16-2008, 06:52 PM
Obviously someone thinks tracking serial numbers will have an effect on criminals. Following your logic, why have license plates for cars, boats, etc.?

If one crime is solved as result of this, who cares about an increase in reloading costs?

I would say that ammunition is already unreasonably priced (I shot trap this morning and the shells were $6 a box).

I don't care if it leaves hunting ammo in play. Killing a goose is not illegal. Shooting a store owner is.

Sir:
---- Are you really a college professor or did you just stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Reasons for asking are way to involved to begin to even try to explain here.

Terry Britton
11-16-2008, 07:38 PM
Obviously someone thinks tracking serial numbers will have an effect on criminals. Following your logic, why have license plates for cars, boats, etc.?

If one crime is solved as result of this, who cares about an increase in reloading costs?

I would say that ammunition is already unreasonably priced (I shot trap this morning and the shells were $6 a box).

I don't care if it leaves hunting ammo in play. Killing a goose is not illegal. Shooting a store owner is.

The only power government has is by arresting people. When there are no longer people to arrest, the government has to create more laws in order to arrest more people. This is how dictators are born.

Lets look at some statistics. Chicago and DC both had anti gun laws a few years ago, and both had higher murder rates than the rest of the USA. On top of that, there were more police per capita in DC than in Chicago, and likewise there were more murders in DC per capita than in Chicago.

Bottom line, the more you try to opress people, and generate criminal for the system, the more criminals and violent criminals you will have.

These laws will only turn good people into criminals, while the people who are already criminals won't change.

subroc
11-16-2008, 07:54 PM
Sir:
---- Are you really a college professor or did you just stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?...

:D chuckling :D

That is also my thought whenever I read anything he writes.

I wonder how his students view him?

Do they think of him as an open-minded free thinker of as the minister of left wing propaganda Joseph Goebbels?

YardleyLabs
11-16-2008, 08:22 PM
The only power government has is by arresting people. When there are no longer people to arrest, the government has to create more laws in order to arrest more people. This is how dictators are born.

Lets look at some statistics. Chicago and DC both had anti gun laws a few years ago, and both had higher murder rates than the rest of the USA. On top of that, there were more police per capita in DC than in Chicago, and likewise there were more murders in DC per capita than in Chicago.

Bottom line, the more you try to opress people, and generate criminal for the system, the more criminals and violent criminals you will have.

These laws will only turn good people into criminals, while the people who are already criminals won't change.

And this is the best argument for decriminalizing drugs...;-)

I think there is very little evidence to suggest that increasing restrictions on gun ownership will reduce crime. However, the only way to really find out would be to restrict ownership, sales and manufacture on a nationwide basis. Movement around the country is essentially unrestricted and guns routinely move from areas where there are few controls to areas where there are many. The arguments that places with tighter gun control laws also have higher rates of violent crime may be valid, but the correlation is spurious. The support for the laws comes largely from the higher crime rates and those rates exist with or without gun restrictions. I am not arguing for tighter gun control. However, that doesn't make all arguments against gun control valid.

Among developed countries, America has the highest rates of gun ownership by its citizens. It also has the highest rates of violent crime, the largest percentage of its population in jail, and the highest rate of capital punishment. Where are the causes and where are the effects?

In Switzerland, where I spent my adolescence, there is almost universal ownership of fully automatic military weapons in private households. The reason is that all males aged 18 - 55 are required to join the military which operates much like our reserves with members spending a few weeks each year on active duty. A difference is that these soldiers take their weapons home with them during the rest of the year. When I lived in Switzerland (1960's), anyone over the age of 18 could walk into a store and buy a rifle or pistol with no questions asked. To buy a switchblade or brass knuckles, you didn't even have to be 18. Laws have become stricter over time and most cantons (the Swiss equivalent of states) now have regulations governing hand guns. However, handgun ownership is still second only to the US and rifle ownership is higher. Violent crime is almost non-existent in Switzerland and rates of imprisonment are very low (despite a very high legal and illegal immigrant population). Where are the causes and where are the effects?

I believe that violence, crime and guns are only tangentially related. Outside the US, America is viewed as having a violent culture and I suspect that is a fair assessment and is a major factor explaining both our higher rate of gun ownership and our higher crime rates. I sometimes facetiously argue that we would be better off if we mandated universal gun ownership, If nothing else, it would tend to encourage good manners. I'm not really sure I think this is a good idea, but I suspect that for our country it's a better idea than restricting weapons to government forces (police or military) which I view as being a sure road to tyranny.

Terry Britton
11-16-2008, 10:11 PM
And this is the best argument for decriminalizing drugs...;-)



Or we could do the same as cattle that get stuck on buckeyes.

Gun_Dog2002
11-16-2008, 10:38 PM
Lets do this. Most democrats are for gun control and most republicans are not but rather responsible gun ownership. Lets take the next 4 years and make it illegal for democrats to owns guns and allow republicans to continue with the current gun laws. That way both sides are happy.

/Paul

Illinois Bob
11-16-2008, 11:21 PM
Lets do this. Most democrats are for gun control and most republicans are not but rather responsible gun ownership. Lets take the next 4 years and make it illegal for democrats to owns guns and allow republicans to continue with the current gun laws. That way both sides are happy.

/Paul

Best solution I've heard yet.

JDogger
11-17-2008, 12:16 AM
Best solution I've heard yet.

More likely a 7% solution, Ay, Watson?

S. Holmes