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cotts135
11-22-2008, 05:50 AM
A recent poll conducted by the Zogby corporation has come under fire for methods used in a poll that suggests that Obama supporters were not as informed as maybe they should have been. As I had commented in another thread the methodology of the poll was deeply flawed and now it seems other people agree.

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/zogbys-misleading-poll-of-obama-voters-459/
"..Interpreted the numbers from the survey in a misleading fashion."

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/zogbys_misleading_knowledge_te.php
The Zogby summary quotes Ziegler claiming that "the poll really proves beyond any doubt the stunning level of malpractice on the part of the media in not educating the Obama portion of the voting populace."

The problem, as Silver points out, is that the survey does no such thing. It proves only that Obama voters surveyed were less likely to attribute to Obama or Biden a half dozen statements that were "at best debatable, yet apparently represented as factual to the respondent" ...

... Describing his biased, leading questions as a legitimate test of knowledge is hugely misleading, at best.


Even John Zogby himself is running from this survey, claiming it was put together while he was on vacation. While paying lip service to its ostensible validity, he adds:

“I also believe it was not our finest hour. This slipped through the cracks. It came out critical only of Obama voters.”

subroc
11-22-2008, 07:41 AM
I think all Obama voters are geniuses. They represent the greatest minds in the United States. Anyone that didn’t vote for Obama was far less intelligent, duped by the right wing talk shows and willing to live in the past. It is a shame the right couldn’t grasp the message of change.

The poll results are an aberration and is a trick of the right. Being informed doesn’t mean knowing the issues being discussed at the national level and making a determination whether they are right or wrong, matter or don’t matter. Being informed means being an agent of change.

You can take what you want from that poll. I will take what I want.

Here are a block of voters from that bastion of liberalism, Harvard Square, and the reason they were voting for him. This was conducted by WEEI sports radio in Boston by the Dennis and Callahan show. While Dennis and Callahan lean pretty far right, Iggy is a staunch, card carrying lefty and he did the interviews.

Listen directly:
http://audio.weei.com/m/audio/21338271/iggy_in_harvard_square.htm?pageid=966 (http://audio.weei.com/m/audio/21338271/iggy_in_harvard_square.htm?pageid=966)

Download MP3:
http://media.weei.podzinger.com/archive/DennisAndCallahan/2008-11-04_Iggy_in_Harvard_Square.mp3 (http://media.weei.podzinger.com/archive/DennisAndCallahan/2008-11-04_Iggy_in_Harvard_Square.mp3)

You can take what you want from it.

Matt McKenzie
11-22-2008, 08:04 AM
The sad truth is that the majority of Americans, regardless of whom they voted for, are politically ignorant. Most have never read the Constitution, do not know the branches of government and the functions of each, cannot name their Senators or Representatives, have no idea how our income tax system works, certainly don't understand basic economics, can't find Afganistan on a globe and have no grasp of our history.

And the politicians like it that way and want to keep it that way. A salesman's nemesis is an informed consumer. A politician's worst nightmare is an informed electorate.

Henry V
11-22-2008, 10:30 AM
I think all Obama voters are geniuses. They represent the greatest minds in the United States. Anyone that didn’t vote for Obama was far less intelligent, duped by the right wing talk shows and willing to live in the past. It is a shame the right couldn’t grasp the message of change.
Glad to see that you can stay on script or keep to the playbook. Remember this quote:
It just doesn’t matter to lefties. This is their playbook.

Extreme left wing radical politicians are smart, anyone that is right of center is dumb.

It is just their playbook.

As in any debate or argument, when you resort to name calling you have lost the argument or debate on the merits.
Why is it that the only folks here calling anyone "dumb" or "clueless" are those on the right?
Like here:
I know Obama got the vast majority of the vote from people with low intelligence.
or here:
Has anyone out there run across an Obama supporter that actually understands the economy and how it works?
or here:
Please tell my the left is not this dim?
or here:
The USA is proof a country can be great in spite of 60% of it's citizens being dumb-a$$es.
or this thread:http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30657&highlight=liberals

Yes, those that are left of you are losing the argument or debate on the merits.

subroc
11-22-2008, 11:14 AM
please identify quotes.

The first 2 are mine, but the rest...

But, they are 2 separate things actually.

The first was an attempt at humor playing off the Zogby poll that cotts135 posted and it is specific to voters that voted for Barack Obama. It appears cotts135 has this need to stand up for all the uninformed out there. You can take what you want from the original Zogby poll and the impromptu WEEI street interviews.

The second is an assertion by me that the left views all presidential candidates on the right as less intelligent than those on the left. That was validated in this election by the vilification of Sarah Palin when similar gaffes by Joe Biden were dismissed.

It was illustrated in the last presidential election when George W. Bush was identified as the dumb one when his college test score eclipsed those of John Kerry’s. Additionally, the United States Air Force selected Bush as a fighter pilot and the United States Navy selected Kerry as a Swift Boat captain. I expect that fighter pilot school is a bit more rigorous and challenging than Swift Boat captain’s school.

Paul Johnson
11-22-2008, 11:42 AM
The sad truth is that the majority of Americans, regardless of whom they voted for, are politically ignorant. Most have never read the Constitution, do not know the branches of government and the functions of each, cannot name their Senators or Representatives, have no idea how our income tax system works, certainly don't understand basic economics, can't find Afganistan on a globe and have no grasp of our history.

And the politicians like it that way and want to keep it that way. A salesman's nemesis is an informed consumer. A politician's worst nightmare is an informed electorate.

Ain't it the truth!

cotts135
11-22-2008, 03:15 PM
It appears cotts135 has this need to stand up for all the uninformed out there. You can take what you want from the original Zogby poll and the impromptu WEEI street interviews.[/COLOR]

Since I am so outnumbered here I was just trying to be fair and balanced.

Subroc........... we went through this very poll in another thread and I strongly implied that the poll was flawed because of distortion and non truths. I was kinda trying to support that position here today.

subroc
11-22-2008, 03:46 PM
Nothing in the article claims the results are false.

The opposition to it are it was a hit job on one group of voters and the information they received or didn't in this case from the MSM.

I expect informed voters knew of every one of the issues, good and bad, that were raised about both candidates. We chose to dismiss or put weight in those issues.

This issue, the poll and its results, are a microcosm of the treatment that Obama and issues surrounding him and his candidacy received at the hands of the MSM. The less than fully informed voter wasn't informed at all by the MSM.

achiro
11-22-2008, 04:02 PM
anyone else ever notice that Cotts links usually start with http//BLOGS.....
:rolleyes:

cotts135
11-22-2008, 04:25 PM
Nothing in the article claims the results are false.

Never claimed the results were false just said that the premises were not totally true.



anyone else ever notice that Cotts links usually start with http//BLOGS.....
:rolleyes:


What's that mean? I'll bet that if all my info was from the MSM you would imply something evil their too. I think it would be better if you argued the veracity of my arguments instead of where they came from .

Tim Thomas
11-22-2008, 05:08 PM
What's that mean? I'll bet that if all my info was from the MSM you would imply something evil their too. I think it would be better if you argued the veracity of my arguments instead of where they came from .
Sometimes its better not to reply.

Henry V
11-23-2008, 07:35 PM
please identify quotes.

The first 2 are mine, but the rest...

But, they are 2 separate things actually.

The first was an attempt at humor playing off the Zogby poll that cotts135 posted and it is specific to voters that voted for Barack Obama. It appears cotts135 has this need to stand up for all the uninformed out there. You can take what you want from the original Zogby poll and the impromptu WEEI street interviews.

The second is an assertion by me that the left views all presidential candidates on the right as less intelligent than those on the left. That was validated in this election by the vilification of Sarah Palin when similar gaffes by Joe Biden were dismissed.

It was illustrated in the last presidential election when George W. Bush was identified as the dumb one when his college test score eclipsed those of John Kerry’s. Additionally, the United States Air Force selected Bush as a fighter pilot and the United States Navy selected Kerry as a Swift Boat captain. I expect that fighter pilot school is a bit more rigorous and challenging than Swift Boat captain’s school.
The quotes and link are directly from other presumably "conservatives" that have posted here recently. There are many other quotes out there with a similar bent (dims are dumb, etc).

The point of my post was in bold.
Why is it that the only folks here calling anyone "dumb" or "clueless" are those on the right?
I have noticed that you and other "conservatives" here continue to communicate the message that anyone to the left of you, who you automatically deem as "liberal", believes that conservatives are stupid. At the same time, "conservatives" here are almost always the only ones calling folks stupid. I just see some hypocrisy in this, or is it irony?.

You know, the record here is very clear that on one hand you and a couple others are playing to crowd here with the "liberals think conservatives are stupid" message and then on the other hand pointing out time after time how liberals are stupid or just don't understand. I was just trying to point that out with some specific examples.

Apparently, I just don't get it again so I'll go away and you can continue to just write up examples of where "liberals/elites" think conservatives are stupid since that must make you feel better and because this apparently is such an important issue for this country.

Snicklefritz
11-23-2008, 07:53 PM
Intelligent, uninformed, ig-norant, blind, biased? Pick your poison, because that's what these characterizations are!

We are all in one hell of a mess, and nobody has all the answers. I hope the more 'intelligent' among us can work together and find the answers.

For those who 'lost'...get over it. For those who 'won'... show a little class!

Snick

Gun_Dog2002
11-23-2008, 07:56 PM
I don't have much to say. What I do know is nothing has changed for me. The damn mortgage was due and despite BO being voted in apparently I still have to pay it.

/Paul

subroc
11-23-2008, 08:07 PM
Henry V

Well, I don't think I actually ever called a liberal dumb and am sure I never called anyone a dim. I believe my favorite choice of words to use as a directed insult is something like "left wing radical liberal extremist." Although I consider it an insult, I am not sure the left receives it as such. I think the left takes my directed insult as a compliment. If a directed insult is received as a compliment is it still an insult?

But then again you can bunch me with anyone you want.

Henry V
11-23-2008, 10:24 PM
Henry V

Well, I don't think I actually ever called a liberal dumb and am sure I never called anyone a dim. I believe my favorite choice of words to use as a directed insult is something like "left wing radical liberal extremist." Although I consider it an insult, I am not sure the left receives it as such. I think the left takes my directed insult as a compliment. If a directed insult is received as a compliment is it still an insult?

But then again you can bunch me with anyone you want.

No, I don't think you did either, but you did write:
It just doesn’t matter to lefties. This is their playbook.

Extreme left wing radical politicians are smart, anyone that is right of center is dumb.
In my original question I asked, why is it that the "conservatives" seem to be the ones calling people stupid around here? Not that the answer is really important to understand the irony.

The answer to your question IMHO is, It depends on how stupid someone is. ;)

Not a left wing radical liberal extremist on most all the issues but bunched as a "liberal" here just because I'm not as "right" as the clear majority regards,

subroc
11-24-2008, 06:00 AM
Beating the dead horse regards.

As I said before, they are 2 separate issues.

I don’t care who it was calling anyone a dim, dumb or whatever. I wont get into the trap of defending them based on your assertion. That will pull me into something I had no part in. I never called anyone dumb or a dim.

My issues are clear and they are this and have been posted in this message.

The left wing has a penchant for trying to tar all republican presidential candidates as dumb and their candidate as intelligent. It has happened every election in my memory. See post # 5 above for examples.

Informed voters are informed voters. They know the issues, determine which matter to them, dismiss what doesn’t and vote accordingly. An example of that is, William Ayers, Tony Rezco, Jeremiah Wright, ACORN, etc. You can look at those issues and determine if they matter to you. They either do or they don’t. See post # 8 above.

The poll that this message is based on is something other than being dumb, it is based on being uninformed. I assert with the results of this poll and the link to WEEIs street interviews that it is true. (feel free to think they are dumb if you want) The MSM didn’t inform the public well enough to aid them in making an informd decision and were pretty much in the tank for Obama with, for some reason, a vested interest in him winning. See post # 1 and # 2 above and link below.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/07/AR2008110702895.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/07/AR2008110702895.html)

Matt McKenzie
11-24-2008, 06:07 AM
The quotes and link are directly from other presumably "conservatives" that have posted here recently. There are many other quotes out there with a similar bent (dims are dumb, etc).

The point of my post was in bold.
I have noticed that you and other "conservatives" here continue to communicate the message that anyone to the left of you, who you automatically deem as "liberal", believes that conservatives are stupid. At the same time, "conservatives" here are almost always the only ones calling folks stupid. I just see some hypocrisy in this, or is it irony?.

You know, the record here is very clear that on one hand you and a couple others are playing to crowd here with the "liberals think conservatives are stupid" message and then on the other hand pointing out time after time how liberals are stupid or just don't understand. I was just trying to point that out with some specific examples.

Apparently, I just don't get it again so I'll go away and you can continue to just write up examples of where "liberals/elites" think conservatives are stupid since that must make you feel better and because this apparently is such an important issue for this country.

I think you paint with too broad a brush. There are those here on either end of the political spectrum that resort to name-calling because they are unable to articulate their ideas. However, that doesn't apply to all "conservatives" nor all "liberals". I suspect you would have a difficult time quoting Joe S. or myself (or many others here who get involved in these discussions) calling others stupid and we are ideologically pretty far apart.

Pete
11-24-2008, 08:13 AM
There is all kinds of smart.
I find liberals in general are highly intelegent. Especially some on this board. But because someone is very smart doesn't mean they are right most of the time. That goes for very smart republicans too.
You can have tremendous thought processess and still have trouble tying your shoes.
You can have complicated ideas about how to make money and still run an economy into the ground.
You can have complicated idea's on how to decrease the amount of poor people and totaly cause the expodential increase in poor people.
In other words people can be so smart that they cant function productively.
Their ideas sound genious but once implimented a major catastrophy occures.
So there is all kinds of smart.
My wifes side of the family are filled with geniouses.
Genious is one thing common sense is another. Most geniouses don't use the common sense portion of the brain and most common sense people don't use or have the genious part of the brain. Its rare you find people with both.
Most geniouses think they have common sense
Most common sense people know they lack genious.
We are in the trouble we are in because of geniouses.
Pete

JDogger
11-24-2008, 08:59 AM
.
We are in the trouble we are in because of geniouses.

Well UB used it the other day, but here goes again.

"THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GENIUS AND STUPIDY IS THAT GENIUS HAS ITS LIMITS."---------ALBERT EINSTEIN

Marvin S
11-24-2008, 09:02 AM
Well UB used it the other day, but here goes again.

"THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GENIUS AND STUPIDY IS THAT GENIUS HAS ITS LIMITS."---------ALBERT EINSTEIN


:) :D :) :D :)

Pete
11-24-2008, 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?p=363519#post363519)
.
We are in the trouble we are in because of geniouses.

Well UB used it the other day, but here goes again.

"THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GENIUS AND STUPIDY IS THAT GENIUS HAS ITS LIMITS."---------ALBERT EINSTEIN Today 02:13 PMActually to believe that statement one has to be either or both
Because both have their limits

Patrick Johndrow
11-24-2008, 06:31 PM
So it took a poll for people to figure that one out?