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sprintwrench75
01-17-2009, 10:15 PM
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer.

I agree with it they have my support. There is some very interesting reading on this site. Take some time and read through it. Why would anyone not want this system? Oh wait then the politicians would have nothing to campaign on.

Marvin S
01-18-2009, 12:26 PM
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer.

I agree with it they have my support. There is some very interesting reading on this site. Take some time and read through it. Why would anyone not want this system? Oh wait then the politicians would have nothing to campaign on.

Many on this forum have read it. 2 previous threads have died prior to filling a page. Surprisingly, regardless of political persuasion the people who post on this part of the forum are not dunderheads.

But as long as you believe the concept to be so good why don't you provide a post where you show this system would be better than the one at present. Also tell us a little about yourself so we have a frame of reference.

When you have done that I will be glad to post something of substance on this thread as I live in a state that relies on a Sales Tax for it's method of extortion. ;)

subroc
01-18-2009, 12:45 PM
There is no such thing as a fair tax system.

Steve
01-20-2009, 10:34 AM
I've said before that everyone should pay the same amount and not be based on income. Anyone who can't pay doesn't get to vote.

This is better than the current system. It won't happen because congress draws its power from the ability to grant wishes.:-x

Matt McKenzie
01-20-2009, 11:20 AM
I encourage everyone to please read the Fairtax book before dismissing the idea out of hand or believing the demagogary (sp?) that goes on by those who disagree with the concept. Read the book and form your own opinion.

Richard Halstead
01-23-2009, 10:45 PM
When you have done that I will be glad to post something of substance on this thread as I live in a state that relies on a Sales Tax for it's method of extortion. ;)

Marvin are you against the Fair Tax for the reason you live in a state who's revenue comes from sles tax? I live in a state with 6.5% sales tax in addition to income tax and I believe it is worthy of consideration. Have you determined how a Fair Tax would affect your income? I haven't finished reading the book, but the first half made it sound worthy of consideration.

Next consider the number of business that have moved offshore to escape their taxable liabilities. This might promote them to move back to the U.S. with there jobs. There is much more to consider than what would happen in a state supported by sales tax.

M Remington
01-23-2009, 10:50 PM
I've said before that everyone should pay the same amount and not be based on income. Anyone who can't pay doesn't get to vote.

This is better than the current system. It won't happen because congress draws its power from the ability to grant wishes.:-x

Steve, that's right up there with property requirements and literacy tests.

luvmylabs23139
01-24-2009, 09:36 AM
I've said before that everyone should pay the same amount and not be based on income. Anyone who can't pay doesn't get to vote.

This is better than the current system. It won't happen because congress draws its power from the ability to grant wishes.:-x

I agree, the most fair system would be a per head tax. Everyone pays XX dollars per head regardless of age. You want to have 6 kids you pay for your family. Right now the gooberment says you pay less even though you use more. I am darn sick and tired of paying for other people. It will never happen because people who do not pay are able to vote for others to pay the bill for them. Those of us that don't have kids get f**ked every time. I'm really tired of it. I should not have to pay for other peoples' 2 legged kids.
How can I get SS#'s for my 4 legged kids?? That would save my bank account.

zeus3925
01-24-2009, 10:55 AM
I'll stir the pot a bit more--How about a VAT?

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm

Here is Wikipedia's take on it. (Note: the reference to Huckabee.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

luvmylabs23139
01-24-2009, 11:31 AM
I'll stir the pot a bit more--How about a VAT?

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm

Here is Wikipedia's take on it. (Note: the reference to Huckabee.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

Not really a fair tax. Why should I pay more to the gooberment, even though I use less services, just because I happen to have a higher disposable income???
A per head tax taxes everyone for their use of services. I am sick and tired of paying for other people who use more services than I do. I do not believe in socialism or redistribution of income. My husband and I busted our butts to get we we are with no parental or gov't help as did our parents. Right now our reward for our hard work is a penalty. Bust your ass, work hard, live well within yor means, and as a result the gooberment will take it away from you and give it to some lay around good for nothing, multiplying like a rabbit piece of garbage.

zeus3925
01-24-2009, 12:51 PM
Not really a fair tax. Why should I pay more to the gooberment, even though I use less services, just because I happen to have a higher disposable income???
A per head tax taxes everyone for their use of services. I am sick and tired of paying for other people who use more services than I do. I do not believe in socialism or redistribution of income. My husband and I busted our butts to get we we are with no parental or gov't help as did our parents. Right now our reward for our hard work is a penalty. Bust your ass, work hard, live well within yor means, and as a result the gooberment will take it away from you and give it to some lay around good for nothing, multiplying like a rabbit piece of garbage.

The VAT is a consumption based tax, not an income tax. If you consume, you pay. If you don't consume, you pay nothing.

I salute your the enterprise and success. However, the truth is that we are ALL subsidized by government in one way or another.

I suppose you don't like the government spending money on trips overseas with the Army to shoot up bad guys at taxpayers expense? You don't want the government to give to assist a medical student? You don't want the government supporting your local hospital? You don't want government giving out family planning info so that poor people won't be 'multiplying like a rabbit piece of garbage."? You don't want to pay for police services? You don't want that inexpensive piece of lumber raised at government expense in national forests? You want to pay a toll to a private company to use a turnpike? How about paying $25 to a private concessionaire to hold a picnic in a national forest site like several sites I saw in Colorado?

Taxes are no damn fun to pay. I am not advocating that we spend even a thin dime of taxpayer's money recklessly. But if you demand the services then pay up. Don't destroy your children's future with a mortgage financed by the Chinese.

Marvin S
01-24-2009, 05:38 PM
The VAT is a consumption based tax, not an income tax. If you consume, you pay. If you don't consume, you pay nothing.

If you believe this to be a good method & I think there are several countries that do this, please enlighten us as to where those countries are better off than we are.


I salute your the enterprise and success. However, the truth is that we are ALL subsidized by government in one way or another.

There are services only the government can handle that were contained in the original documents. I would not consider those any sort of subsidy.


I suppose you don't like the government spending money on trips overseas with the Army to shoot up bad guys at taxpayers expense? You don't want the government to give to assist a medical student? You don't want the government supporting your local hospital? You don't want government giving out family planning info so that poor people won't be 'multiplying like a rabbit piece of garbage."? You don't want to pay for police services? You don't want that inexpensive piece of lumber raised at government expense in national forests? You want to pay a toll to a private company to use a turnpike? How about paying $25 to a private concessionaire to hold a picnic in a national forest site like several sites I saw in Colorado?

Why don't you do a poll - you get 10 categories.


Taxes are no damn fun to pay. I am not advocating that we spend even a thin dime of taxpayer's money recklessly. But if you demand the services then pay up. Don't destroy your children's future with a mortgage financed by the Chinese.

What are you doing about that? Vote for Franken?

zeus3925
01-24-2009, 06:05 PM
If you believe this to be a good method & I think there are several countries that do this, please enlighten us as to where those countries are better off than we are.

First I am not putting a good or bad on the Vat but throwing it out for discussion. It is the basis of Hucklebee's "Fair Tax" proposal.


There are services only the government can handle that were contained in the original documents. I would not consider those any sort of subsidy.

Well they are. Then there are tobacco subsidies and agricultural subsidies to keep you food prices low. That is a subsidy to you as well.


Why don't you do a poll - you get 10 categories.

Poll what? and only 10 categories?


What are you doing about that? Vote for Franken?

I did not vote for Franken. I don't vote for professional funny men.

luvmylabs23139
01-24-2009, 08:03 PM
The VAT is a consumption based tax, not an income tax. If you consume, you pay. If you don't consume, you pay nothing.


Taxes are no damn fun to pay. I am not advocating that we spend even a thin dime of taxpayer's money recklessly. But if you demand the services then pay up. Don't destroy your children's future with a mortgage financed by the Chinese.

Many people consume but do not pay. UNder a VAT system people do not pay equally.
Every person, no matter what their age, receives equal benefit from our armed services regardless of whether or not they pay any VAT, they still CONSUME the same benefit.

AS for police services, I ave no problem paying for that service. I do however resent the fact that while I pay thru my property taxes, my area is not patroled, while those that pay nothing have a large police presence right in their living complex. Thus they are consuming while I am not, yet I am the one paying for their consumption.

I do not use the school system yet I pay while those that use do not.

I do not see any reason why I should pay for birth control in foreign countries. As far as in the US goes, still no, they should plain and simply abstain if they can't pay for it. It's not my problem if they can't keep their legs crossed. I could go on and on.

I didn't work hard to have my money confiscated by the GOOBerment and given to someone else.

Steve
01-24-2009, 09:29 PM
Steve, that's right up there with property requirements and literacy tests.

Isn't it a little embarrassing that your party depends on the ill informed and irresponsible to win an election. :?:

zeus3925
01-24-2009, 09:53 PM
AS for police services, I ave no problem paying for that service. I do however resent the fact that while I pay thru my property taxes, my area is not patroled, while those that pay nothing have a large police presence right in their living complex. Thus they are consuming while I am not, yet I am the one paying for their consumption.

You are not getting benefit from the police keeping a watch on the bandits where they live? You have any bandits in your neighborhood?


I do not use the school system yet I pay while those that use do not.

You don't receive the benefits of a good vet trained in a tax supported University? You don't receive the benefit of a trained engineer that designs your dog truck or your airliner? We all receive benefit from the work of people who are well trained in their professions.


I do not see any reason why I should pay for birth control in foreign countries. As far as in the US goes, still no, they should plain and simply abstain if they can't pay for it. It's not my problem if they can't keep their legs crossed. I could go on and on.

Yeah, lets let them multiply and when the food runs out or their economy sags under the load, they can raft over to good old USA where they will find employers just too happy to hire them.

If you thought Prohibition was a disaster, try outlawing sex. People and sex go together like franks and beans.


I didn't work hard to have my money confiscated by the GOOBerment and given to someone else.

There isn't a way to make a tax structure fair for everyone in every situation. The only thing a "GOOBerment" can do is to make it even handed and as efficient as humanly possible. Even if you had a tax structure conceived by God, there would always someone objecting and not wanting to pay their full dues.

luvmylabs23139
01-24-2009, 10:19 PM
Even if you had a tax structure conceived by God, there would always someone objecting and not wanting to pay their full dues.

Problem is many due not pay their full dues, and I for one am sick and tired of paying for them. Heck they pay nothing and just take take take. Nothing you say will convince me that I am not being robbed blind by the gooberment.

zeus3925
01-25-2009, 09:40 AM
Problem is many due not pay their full dues, and I for one am sick and tired of paying for them. Heck they pay nothing and just take take take. Nothing you say will convince me that I am not being robbed blind by the gooberment.

Have you considered getting involved then? There are a lot of non governmental actions that can be done to lower expenditures on welfare ( I assume you are focused on the relief roles). A person with your organizing skills may consider working with a faith based organization in setting up a center for the unemployed to find jobs, provide networking and emotional support. We have several churches in the area that are running successful programs. One of the more prominent ones is the Colonial Church of Edina, Minnesota.

A lot of chronically unemployed have really no idea on how to get a job. Even a modest program to impart those skills can make a huge difference.

How about organizing an effort in your area to hire Americans first? I know the U.S. Chamber of Commerce doesn't like immigration reform, but they don't want money to go to welfare or unemployment insurance either. Dah-ah!

Could your community benefit from a micro loan bank on the Grameen model?

The opportunities to make a difference are limited only by our imaginations and our determination to see them through.

Hoosier
01-25-2009, 10:33 AM
Sarge, I would like to know how much actual exposer you have had to the people luvmylab has been talking about, the "users" of the system. I'm not talking about handing them a plate of food at a church function, but actual exposer. I believe if you really knew some of the people you think the taxpayers should take care of you would feel differently. The vast majority are people who have both hands out at all times. These are people who hide behind their children, knowing society will not let them go hungry or without shelter. So they push their children out front and live off our pity for them. The welfare system and liberals who think throwing money at every one of societies problems have perpetuated this. There is no longer any shame in taking handouts, and therefore no incentive to get off it. What happens is the people get comfortable with the standard of living given to them. It's not much different then feeding deer for most of the winter then stopping. The deer no longer have the ability to take care of themselves and will starve. We should start weaning them off, rather then furthering the dependency. The most cruel thing you can do is to continue to convince people, and groups of people that they cannot make it without the pity of others.

zeus3925
01-25-2009, 02:46 PM
Sarge, I would like to know how much actual exposer you have had to the people luvmylab has been talking about, the "users" of the system. I'm not talking about handing them a plate of food at a church function, but actual exposer. I believe if you really knew some of the people you think the taxpayers should take care of you would feel differently. The vast majority are people who have both hands out at all times.

I have had enough exposure to welfare people to trump anyone here. The typical recipient is a separated or newly divorced parent in their late 20's or early 30's with two kids. Most are off the roles within two years. Most of the budget actually goes to service providers rather than to the actual recipient. While the professional grifter does exist, exhaustive efforts go on to root them out. They are not as prevalent as commonly thought. But, as they say, perception is reality.


The welfare system and liberals who think throwing money at every one of societies problems have perpetuated this. There is no longer any shame in taking handouts, and therefore no incentive to get off it. What happens is the people get comfortable with the standard of living given to them.

The welfare system came about as a response to the political will of the people. If the majority of the people didn't want it, it wouldn't exist.

You are not going to find disagreement that the system at times is perverted. I can provide you with lots of stories how the system has been dysfunctional and examples where it has done the right things as well.

You are also correct in saying throwing money is not going to cure poverty. Poverty has a cultural component that perpetuates it. That has to be addressed before any progress can be made in eliminating it.

The society has lost a lot of shame in general. Bernie Maddow is a poster boy for that statement.


We should start weaning them off, rather then furthering the dependency. The most cruel thing you can do is to continue to convince people, and groups of people that they cannot make it without the pity of others.

I agree again. Prior to 1996, getting out of the welfare black hole was very daunting task. With the passage of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 there were some significant changes to address this. It permits states to set limits on the total length of time a recipient can receive assistance. Most states it is 24 months for a lifetime total. In Minnesota it is 60 months.

It emphasizes work first. In MN a welfare applicant must first register with the job center first and commit to 20 hours a week acquiring job seeking skills and applying for employment, BEFORE receiving entering an application for assistance. There is no assistance for single adults.

Richard Halstead
01-25-2009, 03:20 PM
An overview of the Fair Tax with Former Gov Mike Huckabee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4YG-xhLpM

Hoosier
01-25-2009, 05:09 PM
I have had enough exposure to welfare people to trump anyone here. The typical recipient is a separated or newly divorced parent in their late 20's or early 30's with two kids. Most are off the roles within two years. Most of the budget actually goes to service providers rather than to the actual recipient. While the professional grifter does exist, exhaustive efforts go on to root them out. They are not as prevalent as commonly thought. But, as they say, perception is reality.

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I grew up in Indiana so that's more where I know the people. When I go back for a visit I see the same people in the same neighborhoods all collecting government assistance. The only difference is it's now their kids collecting on their litter. The parents who's kids have gotten to old to collect on have now moved on to SSI, and will collect that until the day they die. This is whole areas of town, and third and forth generation. Once you start with the handouts the families treat it as a family trade, much like a carpenter passing down a trade to a son. This is the reality..


The welfare system came about as a response to the political will of the people. If the majority of the people didn't want it, it wouldn't exist.

.

The system may have come about out of need, but is not doing as intended. What has happened is the creation of a perpetual underclass. There is no longer a need for people to take entry level jobs. This means a lot of people aren't getting the work history, and job skills they need to move up, and out of the system. It also has created a class of people who are always in pursuit of a government program. Is there any statistics on the number of people that go from welfare to SIS I'm betting it's pretty high

Richard Halstead
01-25-2009, 07:39 PM
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer.

I agree with it they have my support. There is some very interesting reading on this site. Take some time and read through it. Why would anyone not want this system? Oh wait then the politicians would have nothing to campaign on.

Use the Fair Tax Calculator compare what you gain
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=calculator

zeus3925
01-25-2009, 07:58 PM
Tremayne, are your Welfare Boards still local? You need to get on your Welfare Board and grab as many people as you can to go with you. I wouldn't tolerate grifting for one second. It is stealing and is a crime.

The trouble with local boards is that they usually run on a shoestring and never seem to have enough resources to get the job done right. Local boards often know the community better, but, sometimes will go along so as not to tick off a voter.

But, there is no excuse for lax enforcement. It just encourages more misbehavior. The Board has got to get the message it has to do the right thing.

Go Boilers!

zeus3925
01-25-2009, 08:42 PM
I spent some years in the Hoosier state before moving to Minnesota. Never could quite get the hang of it. One moment its north, the next its deep south. Being a native Michiganian, Minnesota is more like what I grew up in --pre-Apocalypse.

Steve Hester
01-25-2009, 09:18 PM
The only "Fair Tax" is a fixed percentage of income, across the board, regardless of the amount of income. It's too fair and too simple, so it will never happen.

Hoosier
01-25-2009, 09:20 PM
I spent some years in the Hoosier state before moving to Minnesota. Never could quite get the hang of it. One moment its north, the next its deep south. Being a native Michiganian, Minnesota is more like what I grew up in --pre-Apocalypse.

Indiana is a little different. One of the points I was trying to make though is that the welfare stats are distorted by the fact the "users" just changed their approach. The real users stay on welfare long enough for their SSI benefits to be processed. SSI comes out of the social security fund, so it's not a state program. You can get SSI for a number of reasons. A common reason is nervous disorders. One of my uncles and his two sons just claimed to be to nervous to go to job interviews, or talk to a boss. Now they just collect SSI and sell a little dope, they are fat and sassy. These guys are big strong men perfectly capable of making a living. So when we talk about "leaches" maybe we shouldn't label them "welfare people".

zeus3925
01-25-2009, 10:24 PM
Indiana is a little different. One of the points I was trying to make though is that the welfare stats are distorted by the fact the "users" just changed their approach. The real users stay on welfare long enough for their SSI benefits to be processed. SSI comes out of the social security fund, so it's not a state program. You can get SSI for a number of reasons. A common reason is nervous disorders. One of my uncles and his two sons just claimed to be to nervous to go to job interviews, or talk to a boss. Now they just collect SSI and sell a little dope, they are fat and sassy. These guys are big strong men perfectly capable of making a living. So when we talk about "leaches" maybe we shouldn't label them "welfare people".

I am not in a position to doubt our statement, Hoosier. I don't know where these SSI examiners come from or who is writing the psych ticket for these fellows. Usually, you have go through quite an ordeal and get rejected many times. Generally, if you are going to claim a nervous disorder for SSI, you'd better bring a train load of paper and a sassy lawyer to boot. I don't have any recent experience with the program. It could be there is no oversight due to cutbacks and the gates are open.

This is from this mornings Strib:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/38277829.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUUsZ

subroc
01-26-2009, 05:24 AM
The only "Fair Tax" is a fixed percentage of income, across the board, regardless of the amount of income. It's too fair and too simple, so it will never happen.

Why is the percentage a more fair system than an equal dollar value?

If you went to the movies and you were asked how much money you made and the movie fee was based on a percentage of your income you would be outraged.

Why isnít the tax for an adult in the US just some monetary figure. Each US citizen pays the same amount of money into the system, no exceptions, no deductions?

BTW, I am no advocating anything here just presenting one argument that illustrates that there isn't any such thing as a fair tax system.

Somebodyís ox will always get gored.

Steve Hester
01-26-2009, 07:14 AM
[quote=subroc;391110]Why is the percentage a more fair system than an equal dollar value?

Why isnít the tax for an adult in the US just some monetary figure. Each US citizen pays the same amount of money into the system, no exceptions, no deductions?

It would never work. It would be a disproportionate burden on lower income people.

subroc
01-26-2009, 07:29 AM
It would never work. It would be a disproportionate burden on lower income people.


Why should that matter. One Vote, One Dollar Tax. Equal effort from all to make the goverment work.

If you focus on the burden you will have one idea of fairness. If you focus on the individual, each citizen must give an equal amount, you will have another idea of fairness.

Our current tax system is some amalgamation whether through consumption tax or income tax of that although it is currently fashionable to claim that the rich need to shoulder more of the burden.

BTW, I am not advocating anything just highlighting the unfairness of taxes in general.

luvmylabs23139
01-26-2009, 12:47 PM
[quote=subroc;391110]Why is the percentage a more fair system than an equal dollar value?

Why isnít the tax for an adult in the US just some monetary figure. Each US citizen pays the same amount of money into the system, no exceptions, no deductions?

It would never work. It would be a disproportionate burden on lower income people.

It would be fair if you consider the use of services. It does not cost less to provide national defense for someone just because they make less. You pay for what you use and everyone in this country uses our military. You want to use the school system, then pay for using it. Six kids, then you pay per head for each kid. No kids you pay nothing. That is actually fair. It was the person's choice to have 6 kids, and maybe then people who can't afford kids would keep their legs closed.

Eric Johnson
01-26-2009, 01:43 PM
The Fair Tax has been introduced in Congress again and this time is has a significant number of sponsors. There may not be enough of them but the number is growing. This is the "Fair Tax" concept developed by Neal Boortz and Congressman John Linder (R - Georgia).

The details are at http://linderfairtax.house.gov/

Eric

Richard Halstead
01-26-2009, 06:22 PM
I received my W2 today and I ran the numbers through the Fair Tax Calculator and I would have 67% more spendable income with this system.
With the Fair Tax manufacturers would not have to have a price addition to their products passing on their tax and product prices would be cheaper. Now if I spend my 67% more income plus the remainder I could purchase more and the tax on my consumption (sales tax) is less than what is withheld. Taxes now are 28% plus state taxes with Fair Tax an estimated 20% consumption tax plus state tax an 8% gain.