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subroc
01-19-2009, 06:22 PM
Presidential Pardon

What do we think of (from the article) "Bush's decision to commute the sentences of Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean?"

Is this a good use of the power of the President to pardon?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95QC5OO0&show_article=1

Gun_Dog2002
01-19-2009, 06:29 PM
I find the huge difference in pardon's by Bush in comparison to the last 5 presidents to be interesting.

/Paul

Uncle Bill
01-19-2009, 06:39 PM
I'm certainly in favor in this case. While I wasn't privy to all the circumstances surrounding their conviction, it seems to me, based on what I did read about, these two were exercising their duty. To have the criminal win is wrong, anyway it's presented.

TV is doing an excellant job of dumbing down the American public when it comes to police work. Why the hell bother to drawn a pistol anymore? It seldom gets used, even in a chase. Can't they learn to hit someone in the azz? Oh that's right, those allow the criminal to win in court. Then do the Denny Crane thing and kneecap 'em.

UB

subroc
01-19-2009, 08:36 PM
I find the huge difference in pardon's by Bush in comparison to the last 5 presidents to be interesting.

/Paul


Obviously President Clinton’s pardon of Marc Rich is the poster child for corruption when using presidential pardons. Money changed hands and a pardon was granted.

This pardon is righting a wrong, at least in my estimation.

M Remington
01-19-2009, 08:43 PM
I am in agreement with all of the posts under this thread. I agree with Subroc's contention that Marc Rich's pardon epitomized corruption.

But, while we're bashing presidents, Bush's choice to commute the sentence of Scooter Libby falls into the corruption category. Although no money changed hands, Scooter Libby broke the law and should have paid the price.

dcr
01-19-2009, 08:50 PM
About time W did something with them.

The Federal Prosecutors went to Mexico, got the drug runner, gave him a free ride back to the US to testify against the border agents. However, it didn't help their case that they didn't report the shooting.

Clinton's pardon of convicted terrorists was AWESOME...all got to home.

IowaBayDog
01-19-2009, 09:35 PM
I am in agreement with all of the posts under this thread. I agree with Subroc's contention that Marc Rich's pardon epitomized corruption.

But, while we're bashing presidents, Bush's choice to commute the sentence of Scooter Libby falls into the corruption category. Although no money changed hands, Scooter Libby broke the law and should have paid the price.


Which law did Scooter Libby break? His supposed crime came after the investigation was already underway and the prosecutor already knew that Richard Armatige was the leaker. Even though the culprit was know he continued to question people until one of them slipped and he could make bogus charges stick. A good prosecutor could question you, I , or anyone else on what they had for dinner for the last week and get you to slip up and "perjure" yourself.

subroc
01-19-2009, 09:49 PM
Which law did Scooter Libby break?...

The law that requires you to remember everything!

Richard Halstead
01-19-2009, 10:02 PM
The law that requires you to remember everything!


Scooter Libby was charged when maybe the finger might have been pointed higher. The quail shooter that shot his hunting partner. Nixon's 18 minute gap in his tapes is why he couldn't remember. It's not a crime when the President does it". (Frost/Nixon movie)

Marvin S
01-19-2009, 10:12 PM
Scooter Libby was charged when maybe the finger might have been pointed higher.

Try Elsewhere - Wasn't the original leaker, Richard Armitage, one of their own?

Captain Mike D
01-20-2009, 09:24 AM
Try Elsewhere - Wasn't the original leaker, Richard Armitage, one of their own?

Yep, Armitage leaked it, which was determined to not have been a crime. Scooter convicted of purjury for failing to remember all the details of the noncriminal act, by a prosecutor who knew who the leaker was.

Matt McKenzie
01-20-2009, 10:23 AM
It's my understanding that GW did not pardon the two agents, but simply commuted thier sentences. Is that not correct?

Captain Mike D
01-20-2009, 11:06 AM
It's my understanding that GW did not pardon the two agents, but simply commuted thier sentences. Is that not correct?

I think that is what I read too Matt.

IowaBayDog
01-20-2009, 11:07 AM
It's my understanding that GW did not pardon the two agents, but simply commuted thier sentences. Is that not correct?


That is correct. That is what they (agents and their lawyers) applied for, not a pardon. Given the fact it took so long and the conspiracy necessary to get them convicted in the first place they felt it was not realistic to get a pardon so they went with the commutation instead.

Hew
01-20-2009, 11:18 AM
Yep, Armitage leaked it, which was determined to not have been a crime. Scooter convicted of purjury for failing to remember all the details of the noncriminal act, by a prosecutor who knew who the leaker was.
Exactly, but with one minor tweak. The word "leak" implies that Plame's identity was passed on for political reasons. Armitage mentioned it in an off-hand manner, with no malice intended. The whole Plame case was a gd joke, and anyone who thinks Cheney was at the center of it or involved in some nefarious manner hasn't been paying attention to the news.

helencalif
01-20-2009, 12:16 PM
Exactly, but with one minor tweak. The word "leak" implies that Plame's identity was passed on for political reasons. Armitage mentioned it in an off-hand manner, with no malice intended. The whole Plame case was a gd joke, and anyone who thinks Cheney was at the center of it or involved in some nefarious manner hasn't been paying attention to the news.

Amen. You have it right. I still can't forgive Robert Novak for sitting quietly on this (publicly) because he knew Armitage was his source and he let Scooter Libby take the heat. Armitage should have been identified early on, but they wanted Scooter Libby to take the heat which he did.

Scooter Libby has spent enough time in jail for his perjury. Commuting his sentence was the correct thing to do IMHO.

I recall there was a president who lied consistently until a little blue dress shed new light on his story. He never spent a minute in jail.

cotts135
01-21-2009, 07:39 AM
Which law did Scooter Libby break? His supposed crime came after the investigation was already underway and the prosecutor already knew that Richard Armatige was the leaker. Even though the culprit was know he continued to question people until one of them slipped and he could make bogus charges stick. A good prosecutor could question you, I , or anyone else on what they had for dinner for the last week and get you to slip up and "perjure" yourself.

Scooter Libby was convicted in Federal Court on 4 counts:

1. Obstruction of Justice
2. False statements to FBI investigators (Concerning conversations with Tim Russert)
3. Perjury to the Grand Jury (Russert conversation)
4. Perjury to the Grand Jury (Cooper conversation)

Your statement " His supposed crime came after the investigation was underway and the prosecutor knew that Richard Armitage was the leaker" infers that once a investigation is underway, anything that is discovered after it is started is something you can't be charged with is just not true.

Let's not forget that the perjury charges are the same offenses that Bill Clinton commited and was impeached for. If I remember right it was the right wingers screaming that the rule of law must be upheld and that justice must be served.

Lush Lumbago
01-21-2009, 10:03 AM
I think the Plame matter was so badly handled that the only decent thing was to commute Libby's sentence. Novak and Armitage were more culpable than Libby and they skated. Libby was protecting Old Sureshot. I think he knew he was headed for a fall.

artman
01-21-2009, 12:33 PM
in the next four years we will look back and think w was a great president

subroc
01-21-2009, 06:00 PM
in the next four years we will look back and think w was a great president

I don't know about great but history will look kindly at he presidency.