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Ted Shih
01-25-2009, 07:39 PM
Just got back from my fourth Rorem Handling Seminar. Each one is better than the last and I am looking forward to my fifth seminar next year.

Got to meet several RTF members, including DrBob

Am interested in hearing what he thought of the seminar

It was Lainee's fourth seminar, too, and I am interested in hearing what she thought also, as I did not have an opportunity to chat with her and Dave before they ran off to the airport

David Maddox
01-25-2009, 09:28 PM
I had the opportunity to attend my 3rd. Ted, it was great to see you guys. You did a great job as always.
I have to agree that the seminar, and handlers seem to get better and better each year. I was really excited to see my dear friends Sylvia and Dale run their dogs Gracie and Tank. Dale says that he will definately be back next year. How 'bout you Dr. Bob? Would love to see you run Finn next year. Thanks again for dinner.

It is amazing to watch "Team Rorem". They are a machine!!!

Ted Shih
01-25-2009, 09:59 PM
David

When are you going to join us as a handler?

Ted

drbobsd
01-26-2009, 06:50 AM
Hi Ted

It was great to meet you. I thought about doing the handler thing this summer in MN. I now think I will wait and go with you guys next summer. I think I need at least that much time to run those setups. Rorem did not let up on you guys. Difficult AA setups to say the least.

I made some great new friends. Dave Maddox, Dorothy and Silvia. Wow Dale hangs with some nice dog people. The 1850's farm house we stayed at was too cool.

Now time to start training for next summer.

David Maddox
01-26-2009, 07:00 AM
Ted,
I was planning on running Jiggy this year, until the TPLO surgery. Maybe next year. I'll probably do what Syl did this year. Video the blinds and handle.

Yes Bob, that house is AWESOME. What a piece of history in a very historic little town. The ponds have excellent bass fishing too.

I hope to see you all next year.

Ted Shih
01-26-2009, 07:28 AM
Bob

Since this was your first Rorem seminar, I would interested to know what were the three things that - first and foremost - you learned from the seminar

Ted

drbobsd
01-26-2009, 12:30 PM
Bob

Since this was your first Rorem seminar, I would interested to know what were the three things that - first and foremost - you learned from the seminar

Ted

1)Reading dogs: How, when and when not to handle by reading dogs momentum, attitude, tail crack etc.

2)Slow down and learn to understand your dogs rhythm

3)How to watch the eyes. If he's fuzzy on a particular mark let the picture develop.

one more is

4)Believe Blue

FOM
01-26-2009, 07:58 PM
BELIEVE BLUE!! No doubt. I know without a doubt the seminars have made me a better handler - my first seminar I could barely answer Dave's questions, now on my 4th I am a ton more confident, but still humbled by what the other half of my team (Bullet) can do. This year by far was one of the best group of handlers, no doubt about it.

As far as what I learned:

How to handle popping...do not continue the pop, but unwind it.

Do not put pressure on the short guns, keep them relaxed.

I reinforced many lessons I knew but failed to implement at times - the opening of the triangle, breathing of the dog, rhythm, eyes have it and much more.

I also learned the temperment of dog I click with. I also learned to appreciate what a fine dog I am lucky to own. Rorem NEVER sets up series in which dogs can smoke without the help of their handler and a dog which already has some talent to begin with. Anyone who has walked to the line at one of his seminars will understand. At first it is very, very crushing to have your butt handed to you, but by the end of the weekend you realize that it wasn't too bad.

I am worried though, quiet a few folks from CO attended, damn it ;-) bring it on!!

If you can go to one, I would highly recommend you do!

FOM

moscowitz
01-26-2009, 08:42 PM
I did not go to the one in Texas. But went to the one in Florida. I hope to attend next year as a handler if it is held in Florida again. I went as an observer and still felt I left as a better handler. The most important thing I learned was the handler triangle concept and better communication with my dog by opening my eyes and watching him and other dogs. I really believe my confidence has improved.

Ted Shih
01-26-2009, 08:56 PM
I also learned the temperment of dog I click with.

Which is what?

Ted

drbobsd
01-27-2009, 06:46 AM
Ted

I can see how seminars would vary from year to year depending on handlers, setups, dogs.

As a veteran what things did you take away from this years TX seminar?

Ted Shih
01-27-2009, 07:54 AM
Bob

Most of the seminar was reinforcement - very good reinforcement, mind you - of things that Dave had discussed in previous seminars.

I use the seminars to get sharp for the upcoming trial season. There is nothing like the pressure of having to perform in front of an audience with a dog that you have never run to get your game day focus. And obviously, Dave’s critiques give you things to work on improving.

Nevertheless, here are three new things I added to the toolbox:


When to "cool off" an area - remember discuss on Momma/Poppa triple
When to let the dog regain its composure and focus - remember Larry Bozeman on walk out flyer double
The difference in handler body posture for a big punch bird and a short retired bird (even though I have doing it subconsciously, I never knew the reason for it)Ted

KNorman
01-27-2009, 08:37 AM
Sent a PM to you Ted

FOM
01-27-2009, 09:27 AM
Which is what?

Ted

Well being my 4th seminar I have had the pleasure of running multiple dogs at each, all with varying personalities. I have also had the opportunity to run dogs off Mark's truck, too. This past weekend made me reflect on what type of dog I liked after handling one that I did not ever find a report with.

I like one with a burning desire to get birds, I like one with a little bit of independent streak in them, I like one who will relent and hand over the reins when running a blind, I like one who has a brain to cover up some of the minor handling mistakes I make (i.e. slightly line them wrong on a mark yet they correct themselves and get the bird or one that will peak up from behind a point if I am slow on a whistle). I do not like timid dogs, I do not like dogs I have to beg to go pick up the birds or have to try and "bring up" so they want to work. I like the more wild dog, but not the vocal bouncy dog. I also do not like a dog who is so independent that they will run a blind how they see fit and it is a complete fight all the way to the bird. I do not care for the totally laid back dog on the line, because I found those types of dogs very very difficult to read......I swear Dave picked dog's that would challenge the handler's ability to read the dog.

I also found out that Bullet is about as good of a temperament for me as I can get....not that he needs any more fire in his belly, but I'd rather start with a dog who has a temperment like his and go up from there.....anything less and I think I would be at a loss.....

FOM

JusticeDog
01-27-2009, 09:33 AM
How to handle popping...do not continue the pop, but unwind it.


What does this mean .... "unwind it?"

ErinsEdge
01-27-2009, 10:38 AM
What does this mean .... "unwind it?"
When they pop you handle with the arm that doesn't make them turn all the way around, but to go back the way they turned. If only "I" reacted fast enough to do it correctly. My dogs always must pop one way and I handle back with the wrong arm and it's always followed by my pro saying unscrew him and I say "I know." Could there be a GPS implanted programed that I do it right!?

FOM
01-27-2009, 10:42 AM
What does this mean .... "unwind it?"

Go to the seminar and find out! ;) Just kidding.....oh wait you have been before......

Imagine you just sent the dog....he is off and running and then pops....he turns to the right to face you, you do not want to give a left back, that will complete the full pop, but rather you want to unwind the pop and give a right back even if it causes you to go off line on a blind....it isn't about the line to the blind when the dog pops, it is about the pop, address that first then move on.....make sense?

I personally never thought about it that way.....does it work? Who knows, but it makes absolute sense to me and I'm going to use it in training from now on......

FOM

FOM
01-27-2009, 10:45 AM
Nancy,

If you find a program that will help with remembering all the things like this popping thing then let me know! I do know my boy reinforced the triangle in a major way for me this weekend.....I get it drilled in my head "follow the dog, follow the dog" and then all of a sudden he wants to overcast which is now "go opposite of the dog, go opposite" - I almost tripped on my own two feet when my body wanted to follow but my brain was screaming opposite!!

If handling a dog was easy everyone would do it, eh?

FOM

JusticeDog
01-27-2009, 10:57 AM
When they pop you handle with the arm that doesn't make them turn all the way around, but to go back the way they turned. If only "I" reacted fast enough to do it correctly. My dogs always must pop one way and I handle back with the wrong arm and it's always followed by my pro saying unscrew him and I say "I know." Could there be a GPS implanted programed that I do it right!?

And what if the pop surprises the heck out of you so much you don't know which way to turn, much less which way they turned? :D:D:D

FOM
01-27-2009, 11:21 AM
And what if the pop surprises the heck out of you so much you don't know which way to turn, much less which way they turned? :D:D:D

then you get to hear Dave's voice in your head - "Bad Handler! Tooooo sloooow!" ;)

tshuntin
01-27-2009, 11:29 AM
I really hope to make it to this seminar in the next year or two...

lablover
01-27-2009, 11:37 AM
How much of Dave's seminar is covered in his handling DVD?

Bill Billups
01-27-2009, 11:54 AM
Does a process for "unwinding" a pop imply that popping and spinning are related?

Bill

JusticeDog
01-27-2009, 11:58 AM
then you get to hear Dave's voice in your head - "Bad Handler! Tooooo sloooow!" ;):D:D

Hey, I think I've heard those words before... :D Or, as I stood on teh line at montgomery on the land blind with Niki hearing his voice in my head "3 seconds too slow"....

FOM
01-27-2009, 11:59 AM
How much of Dave's seminar is covered in his handling DVD?

The DVD is a good prep if you plan to attend the seminar, it gets you in the right frame of mind with the terminology, etc. Nothing, absolutely nothing can replace actually handling a dog under Dave's watchful eye - buy all the DVDs you like, but nothing like Dave's voice stuck in your head when you start to truly soak in the information.....it took 4 seminars for me to reach a state of reinforcement and to slow down the learning curve to the point I was not trying to soak so much in, but rather implement what I had learned previously and make it second nature. I doubt this one will be my last....still so much to learn and so little time to learn it.

FOM

FOM
01-27-2009, 12:01 PM
Does a process for "unwinding" a pop imply that popping and spinning are related?

Bill

Don't know, just know what I was taught at the seminar about popping....the little training tid-bits are bonus pieces of information....the seminar focuses on actual handling while in a trial environment (no e-collar, stick, etc).

FOM

FOM
01-27-2009, 12:02 PM
:D:D

Hey, I think I've heard those words before... :D Or, as I stood on teh line at montgomery on the land blind with Niki hearing his voice in my head "3 seconds too slow"....

Well I ran a dog at Mark's and I goofed up and I caught myself saying "Good dog, Bad Handler" - which I was. Note on a no-see em blind where you follow the dog out do NOT drag your feet as it can make a dog feel intimidated and cause an issue.....bad, bad handler.....good dog....

FOM

Goldenboy
01-27-2009, 12:36 PM
Does a process for "unwinding" a pop imply that popping and spinning are related?

Bill

Yes, they can be, that's why the most accepted practice on a pop is to "unwind".

Lainee, did Dave mention anything about a collar correction in conjunction with the appropriate cast? And, what does "believe Blue" mean? In it to win it?

JusticeDog
01-27-2009, 12:58 PM
And, what does "believe Blue" mean? In it to win it?

Yes. Dave believes that you go to line with the mental attitude to win the trial. Obviously, he did this quite well at the national...

FOM
01-27-2009, 01:11 PM
Believe Blue is the Rorem's way of simplifying....Ty Rorem had two sayings printed out and placed on on her dashboard, not 100% of what they were but do believe they were: "Believe In Yourself" and "Think Blue" - they simplified the two key elements that Dave pounds into your head into "Believe Blue."

FOM

Ted Shih
01-27-2009, 02:46 PM
How much of Dave's seminar is covered in his handling DVD?

The DVD gives you the basics

The seminar gives you the subtleties

Especially when you have a group as advanced as the last one was, much of the material discussed is not in the DVD at all

Wade
01-27-2009, 04:44 PM
Ted and others who have attended the seminar and trial often during the year. Just a question, if you don't mind answering.

When at trials how much of your time is spent watching the best run their truck?

I mean getting as close to the line as possible without interfering, of course. I don't mean watching from a distance as you are involved with 3-4 other handlers conversing.

Thanks,

Ted Shih
01-27-2009, 05:39 PM
When at trials how much of your time is spent watching the best run their truck?



I try to watch the top handlers as often as I can

However, I don't watch more than 10 dogs or so really carefully - unless I am judging

I find that watching too much can make me too analytical and can prevent me from going with the flow

David Maddox
01-27-2009, 09:18 PM
Having been to 3 of the Rorem clinics (sort of), I have a bit of a different point of view than most of the participants. I have had the opportunity to see Ted and Lainee grow as handlers. I've seen both handle several of Dave's different dogs on marks (from the gallery), and blinds while videoing from the field. It is something to watch these 2 Rorem "vets" do things like "set up" dogs for marks, and/or putting their "team" in the best possible position for success on blinds. I have had a great vantage point to see Dave's lessons in handling come to fruition.

On the other hand, I have had the opportunity to watch many "Rorem Rookies" step up to the line as well. Two of the "rooks" being my buddies Dale Willard and Sylvia "Jollydog" McClure. Dale, came in with a cautious approach, and Sylvia, with a hidden confidence. Of course Syl has heard Dave's lessons more than any of us. Well, other than Ty and Paulett. She probably hears "believe blue" or "good dog, bad handler" in her sleep. Both Dale and Syl were completely different from the first time they walked to the line to the last. It was cool to watch Syl handle NFC Willie, then Dale #5 Open dog "Ace".

Being a teacher/coach myself, it's amazing to me how Dave can teach so much in such a short period of time. Over the past 3 years, I've seen TERRIBLE handlers become quite efficient. I've also seen very good ones get even better. I sure hope to be one of the handlers next year.

If you guys want a GREAT lesson in handling, get to one of the Rorem seminars!!!

FOM
01-27-2009, 09:35 PM
Hey Dave,

We were joking (do not recall who specifically) that we were going to start calling Rorem "Coach" - "Put me in Coach, I'm ready to play today!" Now pass on to Sylvia that she needs to use the song in my DVD ;)


Oh, put me in, Coach - I'm ready to play today;
Put me in, Coach - I'm ready to play today;
Look at me, I can be Centerfield.

But seriously, Rorem is one heck of a coach and it would be great to run a trial the day after the seminar and kick some butt while everything is fresh in the mind!

FOM

David Maddox
01-27-2009, 09:51 PM
GREAT idea!!!

Ted Shih
01-27-2009, 10:01 PM
David is very good at observing the dogs and handlers and immediately communicating what he sees and how it affects the performance of the dogs

He is also very good at communicating his observations so that people can both understand what he is saying and then make changes in their behavior.

I have watched his pairing of dogs to handlers over the years (during the seminars, handlers get to run dogs off of his truck on the set ups after they have run their own dogs) - and, in my opinion, the pairings are very thoughtfully considered.

It is really is a great learning experience

Sabireley
01-28-2009, 09:02 AM
I would love to go to one of his seminars. I am probably the bigger liability in our handler-dog team and can use as much training and critiquing as I can get. Maybe I will go to the next one

Steve

moscowitz
01-28-2009, 09:35 AM
See you in Florida for the next one.

Buck Mann
01-28-2009, 10:08 AM
The other thing that I liked about Dave's approach to teaching is that he didn't overwhelm the handlers. With less experienced handlers he picked the larger problems to focus on without nitpicking every little thing they were doing wrong. The more experienced the handler the more critical he was. It was very effective and helped keep all of the handlers from getting too uptight.

Buck

FOM
01-28-2009, 10:15 AM
The other thing that I liked about Dave's approach to teaching is that he didn't overwhelm the handlers. With less experienced handlers he picked the larger problems to focus on without nitpicking every little thing they were doing wrong. The more experienced the handler the more critical he was. It was very effective and helped keep all of the handlers from getting too uptight.

Buck

You are absolutely correct - he will increase the standards for repeat handlers and quickly reads the skill level of new handlers....he is a good teacher. He has a way of telling you you have made a mistake without crushing you.

And another "lesson" I learned, okay a saying I think I'll remind myself of when handling: "When we are screwing up, we speed up........."

i'll have to remind myself when things start to get a little screwed up to SLOW DOWN!

FOM

Gun_Dog2002
12-22-2009, 11:28 PM
So I just attended the seminar in CA. Few things I liked.

1. He knows how much to critique a handler, how much to praise them. Good balance with the handlers
2. He quickly gets a read on the handlers skill level and adapts recommendations for them.
3. I liked his term for making a dog "sweat." I've done it for years but never heard a name for it.
4. I liked the discussion on dogs eyeset and using popup's to determine this.
5. The triangle is great.
6. Teaching focus, with focus on teaching focus was very good
7. The importance understanding obedience vs compliance

These are just a few things off the top of my head, my notes are still in the truck so I need to review them.

/Paul

Ted Shih
12-23-2009, 08:45 AM
Do not recall Dave discussing obedience v. compliance. How did he distinguish between the two?

Gun_Dog2002
12-23-2009, 12:36 PM
Do not recall Dave discussing obedience v. compliance. How did he distinguish between the two?

There were dogs that we clearly obedient and working as a team with the handler. Other dogs were clearly disobedient. Dave discussed how to get the disobedient dogs to comply with commands. In essence through a variety of training methods and corrections. At the end of the weekend you could see improvement in the disobedient dogs and better response to commands, but they still were not obedient in working as a true team. That clearly is going to take some time and training. One could see a marked difference in the performance of the obedient dogs vs those that were just complying with commands but still working independantly. Eventually one could say that true compliance becomes obedience but understanding there is a difference is one thing to read in your dog.

I thoroughly enjoyed the seminar. I have been wanting to get to one for a couple of years and was at the point of biting the bullet and flying back east to attend. I'm very grateful he came out here, can't wait to get the video and suggestions back from him. I'm ampted to go again....

/Paul

Judy Myers
12-26-2009, 11:22 PM
I was at the same seminar in Northern CA. I checked back through my notes to see if I could expand on Dave's discussion of "obedience vs. compliance" that /Paul mentioned. What I wrote down was that you need to know the difference between disobedience and noncompliance. An example of noncompliance is when a dog is so focused that it hardly hears the handler. Disobedience is caused by a lack of effort. It reminded me of Connie Cleveland's discussions of effort errors and lack of effort errors in her seminar and obedience videos. Effort errors occur when the dog is trying too hard. Lack of effort errors occur when the dog is not trying enough. Both Dave and Connie stress that you need to know which kind of error is being made and correct them differently. As Dave put it, you need to know when to "put the hammer down" for disobedience (lack of effort) and when not to for noncompliance (too much effort). I hope that helps expand on what /Paul discussed.

RodneyB46
12-30-2009, 10:57 AM
this thread is great.i've recently watched the vidoes,but havent been to a seminar.hearing this makes me want to attend.anyone care to tell about the triangle effect?

Gun_Dog2002
12-30-2009, 10:59 AM
this thread is great.i've recently watched the vidoes,but havent been to a seminar.hearing this makes me want to attend.anyone care to tell about the triangle effect?


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35649&highlight=rorem+triangle


/Paul

Judy Chute
01-02-2010, 12:56 PM
..................................

Lainee, did Dave mention anything about a collar correction in conjunction with the appropriate cast? And, what does "believe Blue" mean? In it to win it?

Mark,

In your case "believe Blue" has two meanings :) both of which are very important!

Happy New Year!!!

Hugs to "Blue"..

Judy