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WRL
02-10-2009, 10:08 AM
Regardless of who got elected, this stimulus stuff is just flat Bull$hit!!

Bush would have run something through too.

I really think this is US VS THEM and the "them" being all the politicians.....

From the random bank bailouts to AIG etc and now this pork laden bill they are trying to stuff down our throats.....

I really think we need to band together and send DC a BIG message that we are unhappy with EVERYONE.

We need to send some serious fear into the hearts of the politicians that they are about to lose their meal ticket.

WRL

Franco
02-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Regardless of who got elected, this stimulus stuff is just flat Bull$hit!!

Bush would have run something through too.

I really think this is US VS THEM and the "them" being all the politicians.....

From the random bank bailouts to AIG etc and now this pork laden bill they are trying to stuff down our throats.....

I really think we need to band together and send DC a BIG message that we are unhappy with EVERYONE.

We need to send some serious fear into the hearts of the politicians that they are about to lose their meal ticket.

WRL

Both parties are broken, out of touch and inadequate. I salute those Republicans that voted against this scam. However, too little too late and if GW wasn't such a bust, we wouldn't be headed to hell in the hand basket the Dems have picked out for everyone that works to make a living.

Maybe from this failing of our government, a new independant party will arise! Lets face it, the Republican Platform, though slightly better than the Democrat's, isn't what America needs either. I didn't think I would live to see the destruction of the USA but, it is happening. With the passage of this insane bailout bill, we have become a socialistic country. Our health care, the best in the world will soon be third world quality.

Hold on to you cash, I'm not leaving any of mine in a bank. I took it all out today, liquadated my 401k and all savings.
Look for the Dow to hit the 2,000 range as foreign investors liquadate thier investments.
Stock up on survival items cause it IS going to get a lot worse!

kjrice
02-10-2009, 04:06 PM
I might as well move to Canada and at least enjoy some great beer.

Franco
02-10-2009, 04:16 PM
I might as well move to Canada and at least enjoy some great beer.

Late last summer I took a trip to Costa Rica. There are an estimated 225,000 Americans living there and I wanted to see for myself what all the buzz is about. Great climate, health care(mostly American doctors), a real republic and the natives love Americans and their money. I was attracted to one villa on the Pacific coast, about 1,800 sq ft under roof. Only 600 sq ft had walls as the weather is similar to San Diego's, no need for air conditioning, so much of the villa's space is open. They were asking $125,000. US dollars at the time. The place sold for the asking price of $350,000. last month, sold to Americans moving there. Real Estate has gone sky high in Costa Rica since our last election. I just booked at trip today for the week after next and will shop for what is available in my price range! I may not move right away but, when things get really bad here, at least I'll have somewhere else to go.

duk4me
02-10-2009, 04:45 PM
Late last summer I took a trip to Costa Rica. There are an estimated 225,000 Americans living there and I wanted to see for myself what all the buzz is about. Great climate, health care(mostly American doctors), a real republic and the natives love Americans and their money. I was attracted to one villa on the Pacific coast, about 1,800 sq ft under roof. Only 600 sq ft had walls as the weather is similar to San Diego's, no need for air conditioning, so much of the villa's space is open. They were asking $125,000. US dollars at the time. The place sold for the asking price of $350,000. last month, sold to Americans moving there. Real Estate has gone sky high in Costa Rica since our last election. I just booked at trip today for the week after next and will shop for what is available in my price range! I may not move right away but, when things get really bad here, at least I'll have somewhere else to go.

Damn Booty things must not be to bad for you.:razz:

Tim

Franco
02-10-2009, 04:48 PM
Tim, I'm just a working chump/stiff. I've saved $ all my life and worked for all of it through good times and bad. I'll be damed if Obomo is going to give a way what I've worked my entire life for! And, he will try and give it away.

backpasture
02-10-2009, 04:49 PM
Great climate, health care(mostly American doctors), a real republic and the natives love Americans and their money.

I'm glad to hear you are fan of Costa Rica's health care system. It does have a good reputation.

Did you know they have nationalized health care down there? Canada does, too. In fact, pretty much any first world country that you want to flee to when 'things get bad here' has a single payer health care system.

Are you sure you want to live in one of those 'socialist' countries?

kjrice
02-10-2009, 04:50 PM
Booty - check out Chile.

The Stimulus should be renamed The Big Hand Shake.

Ken Newcomb
02-10-2009, 04:55 PM
I may be completely wrong but it seems that much of the advancement in medicine comes from the US. With no incentive to excell won't that hurt medicine world wide.

I admit I am no medical expert.

backpasture
02-10-2009, 04:57 PM
Booty - check out Chile.

I can't imagine he would want to live there. It's another 'socialistic' country with nationalized health care.

Franco
02-10-2009, 04:58 PM
Booty - check out Chile.

The Stimulus should be renamed The Big Hand Shake.

Chile gives me heartburn.;-) I've heard good things about Chile but, I like the idea of waking up in the morning and looking at the Pacific Ocean. Plus, Costa Rica is only a 3.5 hour flight to Houston.

Backpasture, their health system allows you to pick your own doctor and you don't have to wait months to see one. The USA curently has the best health care in the world, why would anyone want to change it? Even the poor can get medical care in this country through Medicaid and Charity Hospitals.

greg magee
02-10-2009, 05:00 PM
I might as well move to Canada and at least enjoy some great beer.

With higher taxes and paying more for healthcare in Canada, I'm staying right here and take my chances. Don't let the door hit you where your brains appear to be on the way out. The beer is ok at best, unless you get an import and have to pay twice as much for it as you would here.

kjrice
02-10-2009, 05:04 PM
With higher taxes and paying more for healthcare in Canada, I'm staying right here and take my chances. Don't let the door hit you where your brains appear to be on the way out. The beer is ok at best, unless you get an import and have to pay twice as much for it as you would here.
It was tongue in cheek, but thanks for your concern.

backpasture
02-10-2009, 05:07 PM
Backpasture, their health system allows you to pick your own doctor and you don't have to wait months to see one.


Yes, and so do many countries' nationalized health care plans.



The USA curently has the best health care in the world, why would anyone want to change it.

Measured how?

Life expectancy?
No, lots of countries beat us there.

Satisfaction with quality of care?
No, lots of countries beat us there, too.

The amount we spend?
Well, we definitely come out on top on that one!




Even the poor can get medical care in this country through Medicaid and Charity Hospitals.

Yes, but they can't get preventive care, so they end up in the emergency room, then they can't pay their bills. And so those of us who have insurance end up paying for that. Not to mention that medial expenses are the number one cause of bankruptcy in this country.

Best in the world, indeed!

kjrice
02-10-2009, 05:10 PM
Chile gives me heartburn.;-) I've heard good things about Chile but, I like the idea of waking up in the morning and looking at the Pacific Ocean. Plus, Costa Rica is only a 3.5 hour flight to Houston.

Backpasture, their health system allows you to pick your own doctor and you don't have to wait months to see one. The USA curently has the best health care in the world, why would anyone want to change it? Even the poor can get medical care in this country through Medicaid and Charity Hospitals.

About two years ago I was looking at a Tuscan style place overlooking the ocean. It was perched upon a cliff on 10 acres. 3000 sq' house with a separate guest house. The weather in the area is mediterranean...$280k.

YardleyLabs
02-10-2009, 05:25 PM
I may be completely wrong but it seems that much of the advancement in medicine comes from the US. With no incentive to excell won't that hurt medicine world wide.

I admit I am no medical expert.

I believe you're right in some respects. However, our own population does not appear to receive the benefits of all that health care. We are 35th in life expectancy, 46th in infant mortality, and 3rd in per capita health expenditures. To rub salt in the wound, we fare worse than Cuba on almost every measure of health and health care.

Hoosier
02-10-2009, 05:46 PM
I believe you're right in some respects. However, our own population does not appear to receive the benefits of all that health care. We are 35th in life expectancy, 46th in infant mortality, and 3rd in per capita health expenditures. To rub salt in the wound, we fare worse than Cuba on almost every measure of health and health care.

I would think diet has a lot more to do with those stats then our health care system does.

subroc
02-10-2009, 05:56 PM
...Measured how?...

Speed that the average citizen that can get any care they need or want.

Average citizen being able to access the very best doctors or clinics.

Franco
02-10-2009, 06:15 PM
Measured how?
Best in the world, indeed!

Jeff, I'll have to rent the Michael Moore DVD and tell you if I agree on the Cuba to USA comparisons on health care. Backpasture, I measure quality/value of my health care by how much I spend on it/quality of care. Fair? My annual cost of monthy health insurance through my employer, meds/docotrs visit, dentist, annual physical, poison oak etc is $2,000. I find that wonderful and consider myself lucky. In 05, I had one stint inserted to clear a blockage. I entered the hospital of my choice and immediatly examined by an ER MD. That was $1,800. out of pocket. The fact that I was back on my feet in two days made me realize how good we have it!

Patrick Johndrow
02-10-2009, 08:07 PM
I believe you're right in some respects. However, our own population does not appear to receive the benefits of all that health care. We are 35th in life expectancy, 46th in infant mortality, and 3rd in per capita health expenditures. To rub salt in the wound, we fare worse than Cuba on almost every measure of health and health care.


Where do you get your facts?

Oh I forgot...you're liberal and just make stuff up to fit your screeching.

P A T H T I C !!!

YardleyLabs
02-10-2009, 08:11 PM
Jeff, I'll have to rent the Michael Moore DVD and tell you if I agree on the Cuba to USA comparisons on health care. Backpasture, I measure quality/value of my health care by how much I spend on it/quality of care. Fair? My annual cost of monthy health insurance through my employer, meds/docotrs visit, dentist, annual physical, poison oak etc is $2,000. I find that wonderful and consider myself lucky. In 05, I had one stint inserted to clear a blockage. I entered the hospital of my choice and immediatly examined by an ER MD. That was $1,800. out of pocket. The fact that I was back on my feet in two days made me realize how good we have it!

My comment about Cuba was based strictly on health indices published by the WHO for all member countries. However, Cuba is relatively well known for the quality of its medical staff.

My own experience with our health system occurred a couple of years ago. I paid $750/month for health insurance for myself, which was the full cost since I owned the company. I had a very minor stroke while photographing a friend's wedding in Bellevue WA. Within 30-40 minutes I was in the emergency room where I told them I had suffered a stroke that caused partial blindness. They concluded that I might have a detached retina instead and that I should return to PA and visit with my normal doctor. No treatment was done and I was not seen by a neurologist or ophthalmologist.

I flew home the next day where it was determined quickly that I had suffered a stroke. Because I was not treated in the ER, my partial blindness became permanent while clot breaking treatment at that time would almost certainly have restored my vision. I spent three days in the hospital for testing. A couple of months later I had a prostate biopsy whch created enough swelling that I ended up in the emergency room for catheterization. My medical bills for the year were over $60,000 of which I ended up paying almost $5,000 out of pocket. Much of the care I received was great, but not where it counted most. The cost, whether paid by me or the insurance company (from an economic perspective it's the same) was at best questionable.

I believe we have a very good health care system for those that can afford to pay and a very poor system for those that cannot. As Hoosier indicated, some of our poor outcomes on health indicators says more about our diet than our health care. However, that is less valid when dealing with meausres of infant mortality where we do not look good compared to most of the developed countries and many of the third world countries. In those cases, poor distribution of services is more of a factor.

YardleyLabs
02-10-2009, 08:38 PM
Where do you get your facts?

Oh I forgot...you're liberal and just make stuff up to fit your screeching.

P A T H T I C !!!

The data are readily available from the World Health Organization at http://www.who.int/whosis/en/. The facts are actually well known in public health circles. However, I forgot. You're a self-professed right wingers and don't need facts.....;)

Patrick Johndrow
02-10-2009, 08:43 PM
I now have two on my ignore list ;)

IowaBayDog
02-10-2009, 09:53 PM
However, that is less valid when dealing with meausres of infant mortality where we do not look good compared to most of the developed countries and many of the third world countries. In those cases, poor distribution of services is more of a factor.


That is a false statistical comparison that has been propagated around for years to try to push the case for more socialized medicine. Most of those other countries don't even make an attempt to sustain life in babies that would likely survive in the U.S. system.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0305/medicine.men031105.asp

The U.S. counts any life signs at birth as a live birth and try to save it. Those other countries don't and throw out any births below certain weights and some don't even count babies that die within 7 days as an infant mortality.

My nephew was less than 500g at birth and his fathers wedding ring fit around his leg, he is now 14 years old and one of the best athletes in his class.

YardleyLabs
02-11-2009, 06:22 AM
That is a false statistical comparison that has been propagated around for years to try to push the case for more socialized medicine. Most of those other countries don't even make an attempt to sustain life in babies that would likely survive in the U.S. system.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0305/medicine.men031105.asp

The U.S. counts any life signs at birth as a live birth and try to save it. Those other countries don't and throw out any births below certain weights and some don't even count babies that die within 7 days as an infant mortality.

My nephew was less than 500g at birth and his fathers wedding ring fit around his leg, he is now 14 years old and one of the best athletes in his class.

Actually, the statistics reported by the WHO are not necessarily the official statistics reported by the individual countries because of efforts by WHO staff to correct data to a standard definition of terms. The comment that "most of those countries don't even make an attempt to sustain life in babies that would likely survive in the U.S. system." is not at all consistent with my experience. Most of the countries that show up better than the US in the statistics are European nations that certainly share our own values in their commitments to preserving life. Switzerland, the country referenced in the article you cited, is a good case in point and one where I have a fair amount of personal experience. My younger sister was born there -- underweight, deformed heart, and deformed lungs. She was immediately transferred to a specialized neonatal care hospital and spent the next three days of her life under continuous physician and nurse care before finally dying.

With respect to the concern about "socialized" medicine, we have that now. Physicians as a group opposed the implementation of health insurance for many years because that would create socialized medicine. Patients would no longer be paying their bills and third parties would begin to interfere in the doctor patient relationship, questioning care, restricting services, etc. All that has in fact come to pass.

More than 90% of our population pays only a small portion of the cost of the medical services they consume. Insurance -- whether private insurance through an employer or purchased directly in a regulated environment, or government insurance in the form of Medicare or Medicaid -- pays the bills. Bureaucrats from insurance companies and, to a lesser extent, State agencies, review the services being provided and make decisions about what care will be paid or not. The prices charged to those few people who pay their own bills are dramatically higher than the prices paid by insurance companies.

If we wish to get rid of socialized medicine, let's get rid of health insurance altogether. If we still want insurance as a matter of personal risk management, have each person pay 100% of the cost and either provide no tax benefit or an equal dollar benefit to all people in the population.

The arguments over "socialized medicine" are primarily arguments over how to pay for medical care for the small percentage of people who do not receive coverage through an employer and do not qualify for Medicaid or Medicare. Virtually all of these people are employed or became unemployed relatively recently. They may work at Walmart, or McDonalds, or Burger King. If they were not working and had spent their assets, they would receive Medicaid. As it is, they receive nothing

IowaBayDog
02-11-2009, 07:35 AM
Actually, the statistics reported by the WHO are not necessarily the official statistics reported by the individual countries because of efforts by WHO staff to correct data to a standard definition of terms. The comment that "most of those countries don't even make an attempt to sustain life in babies that would likely survive in the U.S. system." is not at all consistent with my experience.


Yes I would agree that the industrialized nations that are on the list may in fact have good neonatal programs, my comment was directed towards your comment that we are not as good as "many third world countries". Which is bogus. How many births/deaths are happening in those countries outside of hospitals that never get reported? How is the WHO correcting this data if it doesn't exist?

Most of those industrialized nations still use different criteria than the U.S. or the WHO, how is the WHO correcting data? Statistical guessing? If Russia or a soviet former soviet block country reports a <1000g baby as a still birth how does the WHO extrapolate that it was actually a live birth and count it towards the mortality rate?

Henry V
02-11-2009, 09:55 AM
Do a search on "health care cost per capita". We're clearly #1. Yeah! In fact, we spend more than twice the median and spend almost 50% more more per capita than #2 Switzerland. All these other systems are universal health care. Funny, the data clearly shows that universal health care is far less expensive per person.

Do a search on "best health care system world". We are not near #1 in most all categories in any reports. Keep coming up with excuses and minutia to explain why these reports are flawed to make you feel better if needed.

It is always interesting when this topic comes up and the supposed fiscal conservatives would not be for a system that clearly has been demonstrated to save money worldwide.

Oh, I know, but if we go to a universal system we won't be able to choose our own doctors or clinic. Excuse me, but how many of you can really do that now? My insurer tells me which clinic/doctors I can go to, which medicines can be prescribed, and if a referral is needed there are many hoops to go through. Wake-up folks we have a restrictive system now, that far and away costs the most in the world, and does not give us a good return on the investment, unless of course you're in the health insurance industry.

Eric Johnson
02-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Do a search on "health care cost per capita". We're clearly #1. Yeah! In fact, we spend more than twice the median and spend almost 50% more more per capita than #2 Switzerland. All these other systems are universal health care. Funny, the data clearly shows that universal health care is far less expensive per person.

The issue of cost of health care has to be balanced with access to health care and quality of it. We are repeatedly reminded that nations with "universal health care" also severely ration health care.

The best example of the politics of "health care is the figure of 45,000,000 Americans who don't have health care. In fact that's 45,000,000 who don't have health care insurance. For example....the military doesn't have insurance and are within the 45,000,000. As I recall, that's more than 13,000,000 military and retired military and their dependents. Cut out the folks who have alternatives to health care insurance and you trim the 45,000,000 significantly.

Eric

badbullgator
02-11-2009, 11:29 AM
I'm glad to hear you are fan of Costa Rica's health care system. It does have a good reputation.

Did you know they have nationalized health care down there? Canada does, too. In fact, pretty much any first world country that you want to flee to when 'things get bad here' has a single payer health care system.

Are you sure you want to live in one of those 'socialist' countries?


Interesting that we have patients come to us form Canada (LOTS), Italy, Spain, England, France, and most of South America seeking our services which cost them about 20K plus travel expenses and a four to six week stay.
We must have something better than they have when they could get the same at home for free don’t you think?
Give a Florida orthopedic surgeon a call this time of year and schedule a hip or knee replacement and I promise you while you are being prepped for surgery you will hear a whole lot of Eh’s and abooots coming from all the Canadians that come down here because they can’t wait for it up in the great white north.
Hey BP I am sure that if they open up travel to Cuba you will be heading right on down there for all your treatments right…..

YardleyLabs
02-11-2009, 11:58 AM
The issue of cost of health care has to be balanced with access to health care and quality of it. We are repeatedly reminded that nations with "universal health care" also severely ration health care.

The best example of the politics of "health care is the figure of 45,000,000 Americans who don't have health care. In fact that's 45,000,000 who don't have health care insurance. For example....the military doesn't have insurance and are within the 45,000,000. As I recall, that's more than 13,000,000 military and retired military and their dependents. Cut out the folks who have alternatives to health care insurance and you trim the 45,000,000 significantly.

Eric

Actually the 46 million uninsured (15.9% of the population) excludes all those receiving military health benefits (3.8% or the population), all those receiving Medicaid (13%), and Medicare (13.7%), as well as those covered by private plans provided through their employers (59.5%) or purchased privately (9.1%). (http://www.cbpp.org/8-29-06health.htm)

Raymond Little
02-11-2009, 12:03 PM
Funny, the data clearly shows that universal health care is far less expensive per person.
CAN YOU SAY RATIONING?
No worries, just keep the "BLINDERS" on, and read what they have in mind for all of you
"Old Folks".

Ice Flow Regards

YardleyLabs
02-11-2009, 12:44 PM
Interesting that we have patients come to us form Canada (LOTS), Italy, Spain, England, France, and most of South America seeking our services which cost them about 20K plus travel expenses and a four to six week stay.
We must have something better than they have when they could get the same at home for free don’t you think?
Give a Florida orthopedic surgeon a call this time of year and schedule a hip or knee replacement and I promise you while you are being prepped for surgery you will hear a whole lot of Eh’s and abooots coming from all the Canadians that come down here because they can’t wait for it up in the great white north.
Hey BP I am sure that if they open up travel to Cuba you will be heading right on down there for all your treatments right…..
America is probably the most popular destination for "medical tourism". Interestingly, one of the things that's helping that now is the low value of the dollar. Increasingly, however, Americans are themselves becoming medical tourists to other countries including India (where medical tourism is now estimated at $2 billion/year and growing at 30%/year), several Latiin American countries, Thailand, South Africa, etc.

YardleyLabs
02-11-2009, 12:52 PM
Funny, the data clearly shows that universal health care is far less expensive per person.
CAN YOU SAY RATIONING?
No worries, just keep the "BLINDERS" on, and read what they have in mind for all of you
"Old Folks".

Ice Flow Regards
I think we ration services now. We do it in most doctors' offices where insurers have effectively forced the length of visits to be shorter and shorter, and in the requirement that referrals pass through your primary care physician under a high percentage of plans. Finally, we ration care by effectively excluding 10-20% of our population from receiving non-emergent care because of inability to pay. The question is not do we or should we ration services, but how should we do it. One of the side effects of the approach we use now is that the uninsured end up needing more expensive services because they are less likely to receive preventive services when needed. The cost of these more expensive services ends up being paid through Medicaid.

Clark
02-11-2009, 02:27 PM
There is a really easy answer to this....

Look how much our government screws up nearly everything....Do you really want them in charge of your healthcare?

What programs does are government run efficiently....very few or none.

No thanks...I'l keep paying for my health insurance. My two sons were born very early...one weighing less than 2 lbs. Well over a million in bills and still counting. My insurance has been a pleasure to deal with....I cant say the same about any government agency....even getting a drivers license takes a whole afternoon....

Clark
02-11-2009, 02:30 PM
[QUOTE=YardleyLabs;399068]I think we ration services now. [QUOTE]


This hasnt been my experience....my insurance company pays for everything my kids need, even a PREVENTATIVE RSV shot that cost over 6K per month between the 2 kids.


The doctors and my insurance have not rationed anything....both have done everything they could to help my kids.

Clark
02-11-2009, 02:45 PM
America is probably the most popular destination for "medical tourism". Interestingly, one of the things that's helping that now is the low value of the dollar. Increasingly, however, Americans are themselves becoming medical tourists to other countries including India (where medical tourism is now estimated at $2 billion/year and growing at 30%/year), several Latiin American countries, Thailand, South Africa, etc.


I might point out....that 2 billion/year sounds like a big number.....it's not.....its like bill gates dropping a nickle and not picking it up....

amatuerdogtrainerswife
02-11-2009, 04:10 PM
If you haven't seen the Documetaries by Micheal Moore, I think everyone in the US needs to watch. He has numerous one from 911 Farenheit to the best one about Healthcare American, British, & Canadian. (It's called Sicko)
I have been in the healthcare field over twenty years and it's scary what we do to people.
Rent these titles, they are at most Family Video's and blockbusters!! They are interesting!!

Ken Newcomb
02-11-2009, 04:14 PM
Surely you are joking about using a Micheal Moore anything as a reference to anything.

Raymond Little
02-11-2009, 07:17 PM
Personally I hope the FATSUMBITCH keeps eating so he can go to KUBA
for his Quadruple Bypass.

"If you haven't seen the Documetaries by Micheal Moore, I think everyone in the US needs to watch"

Anyone who uses anything this TURD puts out as an example is in need of serious REHAB!

Gimme What She's Smokin

amatuerdogtrainerswife
02-11-2009, 07:26 PM
Sorry to see that all you can do is bash people on the physical level, insecurties pop up so frequently here especially with narrow minded individuals.

Can You not get beyond his physical appearance and get to the hard facts. I welcome you to work with me and see what the reality is about. We currenlty do ration health care in america. I am sure you have great benefits because you speak so harshly.

Really sir what needs rehab is America's Health Care System. Glad to hear you are the judge and jury.

Raymond Little
02-11-2009, 07:48 PM
Sorry to see that all you can do is bash people on the physical level, insecurties pop up so frequently here especially with narrow minded individuals.

No, not narrow minded, Just believe in the RED WHITE AND BLUE not the HAMMER AND CICKLE.

Best Regards Comrade

amatuerdogtrainerswife
02-11-2009, 08:00 PM
Facts: Medical Bankruptcy is the number one cause of Bankruptcy in the US.
Which happens to good people with good insurance.

FYI : Medical Billing example ( Factual quote of costs in the Springfield, Illinois location)

If you have insurance you can get an MRI for $2040.00
If you Don't have insurance you can get an MRI for $450.00.

Medicaid, the most expensive health care in the US, that You and I are paying for.

I believe in the RED,White, and Blue too.
Unlike you I am not willing to bend over for it.

Signed Your Comrade, Regards

Clark
02-11-2009, 10:57 PM
If you have insurance you can get an MRI for $2040.00
If you Don't have insurance you can get an MRI for $450.00.



I think you might confusing billing with paying....the insurance companies dont pay near the dollar amount of the bill....Same as medicaid doesnt pay near the bill either...

amatuerdogtrainerswife
02-12-2009, 07:40 AM
Maybe some miscommunication happened depending on how you read the post.

I was trying to point out the actual cost of something (ie a medical test) that can be done. It was not comparing billing with paying.

That is a seperate debate. The facts are we in the medical field have raised the bar on all of our costs which in turn as we all know we bill the insurance more. We all know we never get the full amount of what we ask for from the insurance companies at least on the billing end.

badbullgator
02-12-2009, 08:02 AM
Maybe some miscommunication happened depending on how you read the post.

I was trying to point out the actual cost of something (ie a medical test) that can be done. It was not comparing billing with paying.

That is a seperate debate. The facts are we in the medical field have raised the bar on all of our costs which in turn as we all know we bill the insurance more. We all know we never get the full amount of what we ask for from the insurance companies at least on the billing end.

Oh and why is that? Does it have anything to do with the government setting reimbursement rates for Medicare /Medicaid and that being the standard by which all insurance companies base their reimbursements on? You better believe it does. The health care delivers are not what is broken in the health care system, what is broken is that you have non medical professionals, including the government, that determines what is paid and what can be done. We see it all the time. While your example is fairly accurate you fail to point out that while insurance may in some cases be billed more because they pay less, the fact is that in the end the insurance also ends up paying far less that the cash paying patient who is charged less to begin with. Cash patient billed $1000 pays $1000, insurance patient billed $2000 and the insurance company pays $700.
We have someone who I was just reviewing yesterday that needs a certain procedure because it is necessary for another procedure. That is to say that in order to do the needed procedure another procedure has to first be done. The patients insurance company will not pay for the first procedure because they deem it not to be necessary. They will pay for the second procedure because they do deem it necessary, but keep in mind the second cannot be done with out doing the first procedure first. This is all too common and is proof that insurance companies, and any other company or agency, has no business dictating health care.
Another example, why after three back surgeries do I have to first see a primary care doctor before I can go to my regular neurosurgeon? Every time I do this my PCP doesn’t even look at me he just tells me to go see my other doctor, in fact after all the work I have had done my PCP does not even want to have anything to do with my back, yet he gets an office charge at a minimum ever time I need care for something he wants nothing to do with. Sounds like good management to me.
BTW- we often discuss the option of not taking insurance for our patients (they pay us and send the bill to the ins). We could drop our prices fully 30% and we would still make more money than we do now

Steve Amrein
02-12-2009, 08:13 AM
My friend sells wheelchairs and medical needs stuff for the home. Medicaid will not pay for 150.00 grab bars for a elderly persons bath tub but will pay for a broken hip high dollar bed and high dollar wheelchair. Kind of like stepping over a twenty dollar bill to pick up a twenty.

On another note I read a sig line on another forum " I have seen government run housing I dont want to see them run health care"


On a last note I go see my dentist and he knows I dont have dental insurance and my bill is way cheaper than if I was billed the insured amount.

backpasture
02-12-2009, 04:39 PM
Interesting that we have patients come to us form Canada (LOTS), Italy, Spain, England, France, and most of South America seeking our services which cost them about 20K plus travel expenses and a four to six week stay.

Citation? Source?

Or, from your backside again?

Raymond Little
02-12-2009, 04:57 PM
2 a (1): the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association (2): acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique b (1): the fact or condition of being aware of something (2): the range of one's information or understanding <answered to the best of my knowledge> c: the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning : cognition d: the fact or condition of having information or of being learned <a person of unusual knowledge>

I think this is where his source comes from, read 2a1.
Just trying to help a Brotha out Corey

backpasture
02-12-2009, 05:27 PM
2 a (1): the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association (2): acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique b (1): the fact or condition of being aware of something (2): the range of one's information or understanding <answered to the best of my knowledge> c: the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning : cognition d: the fact or condition of having information or of being learned <a person of unusual knowledge>

I think this is where his source comes from, read 2a1.
Just trying to help a Brotha out Corey

Actually, what you are describing is 'anectdotal evidence'.

Raymond Little
02-12-2009, 07:54 PM
[QUOTE=backpasture;399820]Actually, what you are describing is 'anectdotal evidence'.[/QUOTE

Raymond Little
02-12-2009, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE=backpasture;399820]Actually, what you are describing is 'anectdotal evidence'.[/QUOTE
I do believe it is ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Eric Johnson
02-13-2009, 03:20 PM
Actually the 46 million uninsured (15.9% of the population) excludes all those receiving military health benefits (3.8% or the population), all those receiving Medicaid (13%), and Medicare (13.7%), as well as those covered by private plans provided through their employers (59.5%) or purchased privately (9.1%). (http://www.cbpp.org/8-29-06health.htm)

Actually, the table adds up to 115% so it's a tad invalid....or, they have some non-standard way of reading it. The numbers across should add to 100% it seems to me.<shrug>

Thanks. I was using some figures that Carmen Paglia cited a couple years ago.

Eric

YardleyLabs
02-13-2009, 05:00 PM
Actually, the table adds up to 115% so it's a tad invalid....or, they have some non-standard way of reading it. The numbers across should add to 100% it seems to me.<shrug>

Thanks. I was using some figures that Carmen Paglia cited a couple years ago.

Eric

I don't have time to look at it right now but suspect that the reason is that many of the insured have coverage through multiple sources.

Steve
02-13-2009, 05:12 PM
If we wish to get rid of socialized medicine, let's get rid of health insurance altogether. If we still want insurance as a matter of personal risk management, have each person pay 100% of the cost and either provide no tax benefit or an equal dollar benefit to all people in the population.


Or how about something sensible like we use only use insurance for serious issues and we pay out of pocket for routine. Just think how much car insurance would be if it covered oil changes and brake replacement.

Look at Laser eye surgery. Insurance doesn't cover it and the costs have continuously gone down. Competition is a good thing.

Clark
02-13-2009, 11:56 PM
Maybe some miscommunication happened depending on how you read the post.

I was trying to point out the actual cost of something (ie a medical test) that can be done. It was not comparing billing with paying.

That is a seperate debate. The facts are we in the medical field have raised the bar on all of our costs which in turn as we all know we bill the insurance more. We all know we never get the full amount of what we ask for from the insurance companies at least on the billing end.

I can send of my customers a bill for 1 million dollars, but if they previously agreed to pay 100K then I would say the actual cost is 100K since that is what I am depositing. Cost is dependant upon what is paid in your field, not what is billed.

I think you are confusing billing and paying....it is not a seperate debate....paying and depositing is the only thing that matters.

badbullgator
02-14-2009, 06:10 AM
Citation? Source?

Or, from your backside again?



Citation or source??? WTF you douchebag? Your calling me a liar? My practice does and has had people from all over the world come here seeking our services on a regular basis. The fact that you’re a dumbass ticks me off enough but when you want to personally insult me that is another thing. Call me a liar in person and the only backside you will need to worry about is yours