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Eric Johnson
02-16-2009, 07:52 PM
Much is made of the infra-structure aspects of the Obama plan. However, this really shows that neither he nor his advisors know how construction projects work.

1. The money is available for projects that can be let within 90 days. To begin with, unless a project has been bid or is in the midst of bidding, few large projects can go from design completion through contract letting within 90 days. There are just too may steps and each step takes time. For instance, when bids are received it takes at least a week to pin down just which bid to accept. Then, there frequently is a cycle of "value engineering" which can take sometimes 30-45 days. Then the bonds must be procured, the contract prepared, etc. If the state legislature needs to approve the contract, you need to add 30 days at least to the pipeline. You can frequently get one or two contracts through in less than 90 days. I sincerely doubt that your can get several billion dollars worth through the pipeline.

2. Suppose that a contract is let within the 90 day limit. This merely obligates the money. The money is set aside and is no longer available but it is not spent. It stays in the bank account of the state. The money won't enter the economy until it is expensed or paid to the contractor. The work is paid for as it is completed and in the early days, not much is completed. Further, a certain percentage of the work is not paid for immediately but is retained until the end of the project. In short, the bigger the project, the more time it will take and thus the longer it will take before all the money is released to the contractor. For instance, we recently did a rehab on 18 bathrooms in a hospital. Total cost was about 1.8 million. From bidding until the final check was written...3 years.

3. The economy was reasonably balanced in terms of the demand for plumbers and pavement specialists for the number of projects. When the number of projects was increased beyond the workforce, projects got stacked up. That same thing is going to happen in spades. Then, the projects won't be expensed but rather the funds will remain in the state coffers for the foreseeable future.

Like many folks, the politicians think that just by saying "let's do a project", it's done. Not true by any stretch of the imagination.

What I'm saying is that the infra-structure portion of the bill won't have any immediate effect. That's besides the fact that jobs for road builders in Alabama won't be filled by white collar employees from CT who've lost their jobs.

Eric

kjrice
02-16-2009, 09:39 PM
It should have been called The Handshake package, as I gift to those that support him.

K G
02-16-2009, 09:57 PM
C'mon, Eric....have a little faith....it's only money, right? I mean, on paper? After all, it's not really meant to accomplish anything, right? Otherwise it would have to have been more well thought out....not rushed to completion.

But hey....everybody gets another $13 per week to take home, so there will be a TON of folks happy 'bout that, especially the ones that didn't have to work for the $13 to take home in the first place...........:rolleyes:

kg

Franco
02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
How is 2 billion going to A.C.O.R.N. going to stimulate anything but more voter fraud? Thats 2 bil tax payer money that we taxpayers have to pay interest on. The thought of my hard-earned tax dollars going to ACORN makes we want to puke!

Obomo spent his entire time in the Senate running for President. With the huge payoffs to those that gave campaign contributions and organizations that supported him, will Obomo spent his term as President running for Emperor? He surely isn't Presidential material!

YardleyLabs
02-17-2009, 07:12 AM
How is 2 billion going to A.C.O.R.N. going to stimulate anything but more voter fraud? Thats 2 bil tax payer money that we taxpayers have to pay interest on. The thought of my hard-earned tax dollars going to ACORN makes we want to puke!

Obomo spent his entire time in the Senate running for President. With the huge payoffs to those that gave campaign contributions and organizations that supported him, will Obomo spent his term as President running for Emperor? He surely isn't Presidential material!

Which $2 billion do think is going to ACORN? There are funds for housing, but ACORN has never done that type of development.

cotts135
02-17-2009, 07:48 AM
How is 2 billion going to A.C.O.R.N. going to stimulate anything but more voter fraud?


C,mon man, do you guys ever do any fact checking? Or do you just swallow whole whatever Rush, Hannity or Beck feeds you.
Just yesterday the Grand Poo Ba of the talk shows Rush Limbaugh went on a rant saying how the democrats tried to pull a fast one with the stimulus bill by presenting it in PDF format. He went on to say how it was a travesty to do such a thing because as we all know you can't do keyword searches in that format. On and on he went about this. One thing wrong with this, it is not true. For those that are familiar with the PDF format you are all aware of a icon on the page that is a set of binoculars. Press it, type a word into it, and presto you have all you need. Rush either ignored this small fact which he does often if it serves his purpose (facts being a nasty inconvenience to him) of bashing Democrats or he just is to stupid. This from the loudest most influential Republican in the country. Way to funny..............

badbullgator
02-17-2009, 07:57 AM
C,mon man, do you guys ever do any fact checking? Or do you just swallow whole whatever Rush, Hannity or Beck feeds you.
Just yesterday the Grand Poo Ba of the talk shows Rush Limbaugh went on a rant saying how the democrats tried to pull a fast one with the stimulus bill by presenting it in PDF format. He went on to say how it was a travesty to do such a thing because as we all know you can't do keyword searches in that format. On and on he went about this. One thing wrong with this, it is not true. For those that are familiar with the PDF format you are all aware of a icon on the page that is a set of binoculars. Press it, type a word into it, and presto you have all you need. Rush either ignored this small fact which he does often if it serves his purpose (facts being a nasty inconvenience to him) of bashing Democrats or he just is to stupid. This from the loudest most influential Republican in the country. Way to funny..............


Wow cotts I didn't peg you as someone who listens to Rush.... interesting and thanks for the show update since I don't listen to him or the others it is nice to be able to read a review of the show. In the future if you could tune into Glen Beck I would much prefer that review...
Thanks again

BTW- in this case I agree with you about the acorn stuff being incorrect, but I don't think that came from sadi talk radio, becasue the little I do hear made it clear that this was not the case

badbullgator
02-17-2009, 08:03 AM
One other problem is that unlike the public infrastructure projects of yesteryear where average Joe was given a shovel and put to work, today’s road, bridge, utilities….are highly skilled jobs and they are not going to be hiring a bunch of out of work sales people, bankers, bakers….. In this area where we issued close to 3000 new construction permits (this was part of the problem, unchecked growth building more houses than we had people to live in) each month, those have now dropped to less than 30 this month. I know a LOT of construction people (plasters, drywallers, carpenters, plumbers) that are out of work. The interesting thing, however, is that of all the construction people I know the only ones not affected by this are the road workers who are still very busy even without bailout money. The problem for the other folks is that they are skilled in other trades but not in driving laser graders, backhoes, or setting steel for bridge work and the road construction companies are only hiring skilled workers, they only need so many people to stand around and hold a shovel

Goose
02-17-2009, 09:05 AM
My favorite piece of pork in the porkulus bill is the Reid/Pelosi bullet train from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. Now gamblers from California can lose money quicker using the train. Better buy a round trip ticket just in case you lose it all.

It should also help LA's gangs expand to Las Vegas faster.

Good thing we're paying for this rather than the residents of California. They can't afford it. That state's just about belly-up thanks to all the wonderful spending of the leftist politicians running loose out there.

And what's happening in Kansas? If you live there I hope the state doesn't owe you a tax refund.

Franco
02-17-2009, 09:09 AM
Funny because I don't listen to Rush or Hannity.

This Steal Fron Us Bill reminds me of a scam artist and other crooks. It goes something like this, "Trust me it's good for you. You don't need to read it, hurry and just sign it".

Anyone that thinks this Bill is the answer is foolish!

badbullgator
02-17-2009, 11:03 AM
Funny because I don't listen to Rush or Hannity.

This Steal Fron Us Bill reminds me of a scam artist and other crooks. It goes something like this, "Trust me it's good for you. You don't need to read it, hurry and just sign it".

Anyone that thinks this Bill is the answer is foolish!


I agree with you on the foolishness of it.
Now maybe someone can help this poor uneducated scientist out with some economics. It is my understanding that the money for all of this will either be borrowed or printed, both of which do not sound good to me right now. Additionally, taxes are being cut so less revenue will be coming in. Please, please help me here, if most or all of this is to be borrowed money, how do any of these projects do anything to pay that money back? If I run a business and ask for a loan the bank is going to want to know exactly how the money I am asking for is going to eventually translate into money to pay them back. They may loan me money for raw materials or a new building, but only if those materials are going to be processed into goods that I can sell or the building is going to increase production or decrease cost, something has to be making money for me to get money. Now it seems to me the government is borrowing money for things that will never generate money, other than in tax revenue from you and I working, but even that at the current rate will never be enough to pay the money back. If none, or at best very, very few, of these projects will ever produce any revenue other than taxes where is the money going to come from to pay it back to China? All I can think is that somewhere down the line there will be an astronomic tax increase for us or our children to just pay the interest on this money. Am I wrong?

JDogger
02-17-2009, 11:27 AM
VP Cheney to Tres Sec O'Neill in 2002.

"You know Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."


So relax, :) JD

Marvin S
02-17-2009, 11:48 AM
VP Cheney to Tres Sec O'Neill in 2002.

"You know Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

:p :p Please explain YOUR logic (or lack thereof) in quoting someone YOU so vehemently disagree with. Skeptical regards. ;)

JDogger
02-17-2009, 12:22 PM
:p Please explain YOUR logic (or lack thereof) in quoting someone YOU so vehemently disagree with. Skeptical regards. ;)

You need to get your recollections straightened out. A quick search of all my posts show only one other reference to Cheney and that was in respect to secret meetings concerning energy policy.

My quote was Tongue-in-Cheek. Maybe if I had included several wink,wink ;);) smilies instead of a smile:) smilie that would have been clearer to you.:rolleyes:

Vicki Worthington
02-18-2009, 05:31 PM
Eric,

Your take on how the spending will occur is right on--probably from the state level. From the Fed level it is a little different:

If it is a Fed Agency where the contracting officials are actual government employees, the following rules must be observed:

1. Absent sufficient justification for CICA (Competition in Contracting Act) and its various amendments, the awards must be advertised for competition. This means 30 days open announcement period.
2. Once the 30-day announcement period passes, there is a minimum of 30 days to allow prospective offerors to prepare their proposals and submit them. In the event a small business indicates that is insufficient time to properly prepare a bid/proposal, this period can be extended. Lets assume that happens, because it normally does--taking the time period to 60 days for submissions.
3. We are now at 30 days advertised, 30 days to submit, a 30 day extension to submit--90 days.
4. Once bids/proposals are received, it is usually a minimum of 30days to evaluate the offers/bids, address any deficiencies, negotiate, and propose an award.

This assumes not sealed bidding; and not best-value procedures are utilized. Fast turn-around time for a Federal contracting office is 120 days minimum.

If best-value criteria is used, it is months longer due to discussions, ranking of technical proposals, marriage of cost with technical rankings, price negotiations, and actual approvals of a proposed award. Now we are up to about 6 months for an award to take place! Then the bid/performance bonds must be obtained and submitted to the contracting office, contractor's safety plan must be submitted and approved by the agency, and a Notice to Proceed issued once all this occurs. Mindboggling, yes?

That's why its ludicrous to believe the Federal Government will make any process better! If they had been in charge of Detroit, the capital infusion they need would be more astronomical than it already is. Plus, the vehicle would cost $100,000, last about 6 months, and need to stop every 10 miles to refuel due to all the BS regulation attached for social programs that the average taxpayer has no idea about! It's no accident that the Federal Acquisition Regulation is 2 hugh volumes with 53 Parts and each and ever item of print is evidence of a prior scar from someone's perception!