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View Full Version : A counter to the "torture debate"



Eric Johnson
04-23-2009, 08:43 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html

The Memos Prove We Didn't Torture
The Red Cross was completely wrong about 'walling.'

By DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. and LEE A. CASEY
The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law. Far from "green lighting" torture -- or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees -- the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation.

Interrogations were to be "continuously monitored" and "the interrogation team will stop the use of particular techniques or the interrogation altogether if the detainee's medical or psychological conditions indicates that the detainee might suffer significant physical or mental harm."
-more-

Goose
04-23-2009, 09:27 AM
Dear Leader, Janet and the rest of his Cabinet treat captured terrorists (who are determined to kill as many Americans as they can) with more respect than American veterans returning from the Middle East. Heck, Janet considers the returning American soldier as a right-wing extremist who must be monitored. How about ankle bracelets, Janet.

Julie R.
04-23-2009, 10:12 AM
I sure would like to see an end to the media fascination with torture and making the U.S. look bad. Yes, I believe we should uphold a higher standard than our enemies but I don't think a few enlisted soldier mistakes and classified internal memos should be plastered all over the front pages of the papers and the net. Terrorists and those countries that hate us will always find fodder to feed their fury but why should we spoon feed it to them? If the media seeks sensationalism to sell product why not outline how U.S. captives are treated abroad?

Uncle Bill
04-23-2009, 11:05 AM
I sure would like to see an end to the media fascination with torture and making the U.S. look bad.



Wouldn't we all! But that's not their way. All they give a damn about is "Getting Even". All this folderol is nothing more than distraction...to get the focus off the current administration's blunders and gaffes at every turn.

Think of the glee there would be in the Letterman crowd if there was anyone except a black President making these incredulous faux pas? Like all the MSP he's invested in this administration. You'd never hear any of these late night Presidential slammers aiming arrows at Obama...too risky. This nation is splitting wider apart daily on racial divides. This will become the major failure of this administration.

As the sycophantic media continue to fawn at every movement BHO makes, and continues to back every administration genuflect to our enemies, giving them loads of confidence about how soft we've become, the rest of us are given little choice but to get busy running this yahoo and his minions out on a rail. Just think how devisive this will all become.

Eventually even the so-called 'little guy' will come to realize the push by this administration and their willing accomplices in the MSP, to promote hatred against the haves by taking from them and redistributing it to the have-nots will sink in as causing their demise as well. After the producers have given up when they realize there is no reward to their efforts, and all they have employed become totally destitute, the revolution will begin.

I can only hope there are enough remaining true Americans that understand how their freedoms have eroded into socialism, so they know what to return to. Not sure when this will happen. Probably take a generation before the sheeple wise up; certainly beyond the ages of the 60's flower children.

UB

Eric Johnson
04-23-2009, 11:16 AM
What I find interesting is the press' fascination with "water-boarding" although we now learn it has only been used on three individuals.

Also, the techiques are commonly used in the SERE program with our own military members....and members of Congress know this.

Also, they aren't after the actual folks who did this but the lawyers who crafted the parameters that were used.

In effect, it's a witch hunt and no more.

Eric

jefflab5
04-23-2009, 11:37 AM
I usually just read through here and avoid chiming in for a number of reasons. However, this has been a topic of discussion in our home just about every night since being on the news. Something in a previous post struck me, and I am in total agreement with. I to agree as the United States of America we should hold ourselves to a higher standard when dealing with such issues such as what is torture and what is not.

I think we have held ourselves to a higher standard thus far. We don't cut off peoples heads or kill them and then drag them through the streets. Also I have not heard we have yet to pull anybody's finger nails off with pliers, put bamboo shoot under fingernails, lop off body parts, or zap them with car batteries and jumper cables.

So I think is is safe to say we continue to hold the bar somewhat higher than the people we are having to deal with.

I am in the camp of let the professionals do what they need to do to keep us safe.

duckheads
04-23-2009, 12:27 PM
Ditto!!!!!!!! i wonder if daniel pearl's family feel that what we are doing is torture?

cotts135
04-23-2009, 12:43 PM
This is issue is clear, cut at least to me. The facts are that waterboarding is torture. Torture is against the law. What is so hard to understand about that. If we choose to look the other way in this matter, then please tell me what will be a deterrent from this happening again. But to me the more important matter is that we will have a system that is two tiered. One where the political elites don't have to function under the law and the other where common folk are put in jail for just about anything.
Look, to get elected it is almost a foregone conclusion that a candidate must be tough on crime. Tough on who? Shouldn't we also be tough on crime when top politicians commit felonies.
This is not an argument about retribution. as it is about following domestic and international law. Let investigations begin and see where it leads us.

Joe S.
04-23-2009, 12:55 PM
What I find interesting is the press' fascination with "water-boarding" although we now learn it has only been used on three individuals.

Also, the techiques are commonly used in the SERE program with our own military members....and members of Congress know this.

Also, they aren't after the actual folks who did this but the lawyers who crafted the parameters that were used.

In effect, it's a witch hunt and no more.

Eric

"...only been used on three individuals..."

So what is the acceptable number of people the United States of American can torture before torture becomes wrong in your eyes?

There is a huge difference between being waterboarded at SERE and being waterboarded in real life. Getting boarded at SERE you know it is a training environment and it will end at some point. There is no thought in the back of your mind "What are they going to do to me next?" You've been cramped up, cooped up, kept up, not allowed to use a bathroom, gone through the homophobe drills, under fed, under hydrated, and just about everything else...and still you know that in the back of your mind SERE is a training environment and it's going to end.

To suggest that being boarded at SERE and being boarded as the real deal are one in the same highlights a basic lack of understanding of both the training, the preparation for and the effect of being waterboarded.

Of course you know why they board people at SERE, right Eric? They board them, and do all the other things to them, to expose them to the types of TORTURE they can expect if they are captured by the enemy. And while we are discussing things you know, I'd bet you also know that following WWII the United States of America successfully tried and convicted people of war crimes. One of the crimes: waterboarding...but then you knew that.

I have no love or pity for KSM or any of the others that seek to do us harm. I just think the USA should be above torture.

Yoo Was Just A Lawyer Regards,

Joe S.

badbullgator
04-23-2009, 01:06 PM
"...only been used on three individuals..."

So what is the acceptable number of people the United States of American can torture before torture becomes wrong in your eyes?

.


As many as it takes;-)

I don't care if we take blow torches to their balls. Don't ask, don't tell just get results

cotts135
04-23-2009, 01:25 PM
As many as it takes;-)

I don't care if we take blow torches to their balls. Don't ask, don't tell just get results

Nice seems very similiar to what I hear on this board about what the savages in the middle east do to our people

badbullgator
04-23-2009, 01:32 PM
Meet force with force. If I can sleep at night becasue somebody is doing what it takes to keep me safe so be it

Can't handle the truth regards

cotts135
04-23-2009, 01:51 PM
Meet force with force. If I can sleep at night becasue somebody is doing what it takes to keep me safe so be it

Can't handle the truth regards
I guess then you don't fault them for their savagery, after all you approve of using these drastic measures yourself.

Eric Johnson
04-23-2009, 02:16 PM
"...only been used on three individuals..."

So what is the acceptable number of people the United States of American can torture before torture becomes wrong in your eyes?

There is a huge difference between being waterboarded at SERE and being waterboarded in real life. Getting boarded at SERE you know it is a training environment and it will end at some point. .....

To suggest that being boarded at SERE and being boarded as the real deal are one in the same highlights a basic lack of understanding of both the training, the preparation for and the effect of being waterboarded.

Of course you know why they board people at SERE, right Eric? They board them, and do all the other things to them, to expose them to the types of TORTURE they can expect if they are captured by the enemy. And while we are discussing things you know, I'd bet you also know that following WWII the United States of America successfully tried and convicted people of war crimes. One of the crimes: waterboarding...but then you knew that.


I just thought the revelations were sort of interesting.

1. I mentioned the number three not to diminish the practice but rather to diminish the blithering idiots that talk about it as though this were some routine that was done to hundreds of individuals over years and years. In effect, let's put some perspective on this. If we're going to witch hunt, let's confine it to those three cases. BTW, I heard the Speaker Pelosi knew about this and wasn't particularly upset. Maybe she needs to a target of the witch-hunt too.

2. Of course the outcome of SERE and real-life are different. That's why one is training and one is not. The thousands of troops that were trained with this technique knew there was an end in sight though it may have seemed interminable. The folks in real life didn't know there is an end in sight and that is the cause of their anxiety and ultimately to their revealing whatever they revealed. So...the only real issue is whether or not we should make these folks feel anxious. You bet we should....in spades. Afterall, they are suspected of planning or having the plans to actions that are far more heinous.

3. During WWII the Japanese used waterboarding. However, they did not have the safeguards that we have used. They were actually killing people. So far as I know, that hasn't been charged.

Eric

cotts135
04-23-2009, 02:34 PM
I just have one question for all of you that are defending waterboarding. Would you find it find it ok for our officials not to prosecute or bring to justice someone who has waterboarded one of our own troops? Even if they instituted the safeguards they say they did would it still be ok?
If your answer is no, then I find it hard for you to defend anyone in this country who has done the same thing.

Uncle Bill
04-23-2009, 02:49 PM
Of course you know why they board people at SERE, right Eric? They board them, and do all the other things to them, to expose them to the types of TORTURE they can expect if they are captured by the enemy. And while we are discussing things you know, I'd bet you also know that following WWII the United States of America successfully tried and convicted people of war crimes. One of the crimes: waterboarding...but then you knew that.


Joe S.

Your chutzpah is incredulous, Joe. Read up on who all was privy to the CIA's activities back in 2002 and 2003...but you knew that, right Joe?

MANY in congress KNEW about all these techniques, Joe...but you knew that, right???

Even the 3rd in line for the POTUS, God forbid, was made aware of all this activity...but you knew that, right Joe???

And your feeble attempt at bringing "waterboarding" up to the level of the WWII war crimes is so far below your intelligence level, it boggles my mind. Almost analogous to adding to the accusations of a serial killer..."he also jay-walked 15 years ago".

Your attempt at painting the right as being "the big, bad, immoral nasty bastards that have caused all the problems we face in the world with the Islamic facists", is a real stretch.

The political garbage your party is spewing about this situation is totally disingenuous...but you know that, right Joe?

UB

badbullgator
04-23-2009, 02:54 PM
I just have one question for all of you that are defending waterboarding. Would you find it find it ok for our officials not to prosecute or bring to justice someone who has waterboarded one of our own troops? Even if they instituted the safeguards they say they did would it still be ok?
If your answer is no, then I find it hard for you to defend anyone in this country who has done the same thing.

I think I was mistaken in thinking that you meant one of our own did it to one of our own, but I now believe your question is what if THEY did it to one of ours….. I would not expect any prosecution. I have been told war is hell and I have to take their word for it

Matt McKenzie
04-23-2009, 03:10 PM
I just have one question for all of you that are defending waterboarding. Would you find it find it ok for our officials not to prosecute or bring to justice someone who has waterboarded one of our own troops? Even if they instituted the safeguards they say they did would it still be ok?
If your answer is no, then I find it hard for you to defend anyone in this country who has done the same thing.

If we fought a war with an enemy that stopped at wateboarding, that had policies that ensured that a doctor and a psychiatrist were on hand if they went as far as to slap one of our soldiers, that could use insects on our soldiers who had insect phobias, but only as long as they informed them that the bugs could not actually harm them, most of our military members and civilian operators who actually take the risk of capture would dance in the streets with relief. But of course they (we) know that we have never fought an enemy like that. We usually end up in wars with enemies that have no moral compunction to treat our people with any glimmer of humanity. We have always taken the moral high road when it comes to treatment of our prisoners of war, with the possible exception of the civil war. So to answer your question, no, I do not expect our officials to prosecute someone who has waterboarded one of our troops. I think that idea is completely ridiculous, but very popular with politicians who spend their lives in comfort and ignorance while making stupid rules to regulate better men than themselves. Men who spend - and sometimes expend - their lives fighting our wars or hunting down criminals in their mission to keep us all safe. And nothing pisses me off more than hearing some pantywaist who has neither the spine nor the clarity of thought to do the job question the morality of the man who does.

Pete
04-23-2009, 03:55 PM
I think we should all be neutered. That way we might get along with liberals.
We can play patty cake and feel like we are accomplishing something. Then when we are all done we can have group hugs and kiss the feet of our enemies and feel really good about ourselves.

Then when we hear about the cattapilliars the interogaters let loose in the room we can all scream and hold each other tight for comfort and support. We can then complain in a group setting how evil and cruel that man was that let the cattipillar loose. And then file a law suit against him and his superiors and proclaim on news shows how evil this catapillar man is.
I'm getting the hang of this liberal mindset,,,don't ya think.

Pansy arse qu--r bait regaurds

Pete

cotts135
04-23-2009, 04:52 PM
Hookset & Badbullgator I applaud your honesty and respect your opinion, but as you probably already know I strongly disagree with you. For one I don't believe in Waterboard lite............... If you read Article 3 of the Geneva convention and what constitutes torture you would be hard pressed that saying the presence of a doctor is comfort to the prisoner or alleviates the conditions that define torture. Plus I haven't seen any credible evidence that it obtained any decent intelligence. What I see is time and time again are agents either from the CIA, FBI or Army Intelligence officers who say this doesn't work. The rebuttal to this is a politician usually Republican saying that this technique has saved lifes. Of course this is always without specifics or is easily debunked with a little research.
Lets investigate and find out the truth and if it is found people broke the law let's prosecute them.

Bob Gutermuth
04-23-2009, 05:14 PM
I am also in the camp that thinks methods should be secondary as long as you get results. I personally think that more of these enemy scumbags should be subjected to harsh interrogations not less. Barry Goldwater was correct, " Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice!"

Cody Covey
04-23-2009, 05:35 PM
Hookset & Badbullgator I applaud your honesty and respect your opinion, but as you probably already know I strongly disagree with you. For one I don't believe in Waterboard lite............... If you read Article 3 of the Geneva convention and what constitutes torture you would be hard pressed that saying the presence of a doctor is comfort to the prisoner or alleviates the conditions that define torture. Plus I haven't seen any credible evidence that it obtained any decent intelligence. What I see is time and time again are agents either from the CIA, FBI or Army Intelligence officers who say this doesn't work. The rebuttal to this is a politician usually Republican saying that this technique has saved lifes. Of course this is always without specifics or is easily debunked with a little research.
Lets investigate and find out the truth and if it is found people broke the law let's prosecute them.
I agree Cotts so why do you call up your man and tell him to release ALL the documents on the situation. I mean he was willing to release some of them why not release the rest so we can get some real transparency not this quasi transparency where we only release things that hurt the past administration or opposing party. I guess when members of your own party knew and signed off on the techniques then you would be reluctant too.

And as a note to your asking if we would be mad if it happened to our troops. Yes i sure would but i also realize that war is a nasty thing and so do the people who signed up for it. I am not one of those that believe that life is fair and everyone should be treated nicely. If you do bad things to my country and have information about it i may ask nicely once but from there on out the asking will become much tougher.

As far as the techniques go correct me if i am wrong but this isn't illegal because they are not US citizens or in this country. They are not in any part of any flagged army. So how exactly is this illegal by either our constitution or the geneva convention?

badbullgator
04-23-2009, 05:53 PM
Hookset & Badbullgator I applaud your honesty and respect your opinion, but as you probably already know I strongly disagree with you. For one I don't believe in Waterboard lite............... If you read Article 3 of the Geneva convention and what constitutes torture you would be hard pressed that saying the presence of a doctor is comfort to the prisoner or alleviates the conditions that define torture. Plus I haven't seen any credible evidence that it obtained any decent intelligence. What I see is time and time again are agents either from the CIA, FBI or Army Intelligence officers who say this doesn't work. The rebuttal to this is a politician usually Republican saying that this technique has saved lifes. Of course this is always without specifics or is easily debunked with a little research.
Lets investigate and find out the truth and if it is found people broke the law let's prosecute them.

NOt flagged army....no laws broken.

I kind of doubt that you or I will ever know that....kind of think that would still be classified and just a bit over our pay grade don't ya think

road kill
04-23-2009, 06:03 PM
Hookset & Badbullgator I applaud your honesty and respect your opinion, but as you probably already know I strongly disagree with you. For one I don't believe in Waterboard lite............... If you read Article 3 of the Geneva convention and what constitutes torture you would be hard pressed that saying the presence of a doctor is comfort to the prisoner or alleviates the conditions that define torture. Plus I haven't seen any credible evidence that it obtained any decent intelligence. What I see is time and time again are agents either from the CIA, FBI or Army Intelligence officers who say this doesn't work. The rebuttal to this is a politician usually Republican saying that this technique has saved lifes. Of course this is always without specifics or is easily debunked with a little research.
Lets investigate and find out the truth and if it is found people broke the law let's prosecute them.

So you think they do it just for fun?

There is absolutely ZERO merit to the technique??

badbullgator
04-23-2009, 06:09 PM
I have no interest in prosecuteing anyone for doing anything to terrorist or those who wish us wiped from the face of the earth....right or wrong.

Cotts why exactly do you feel so strongly about protecting and/or helping those who hate us and try at every turn to kill us?

Steve
04-23-2009, 06:22 PM
This is issue is clear, cut at least to me. The facts are that waterboarding is torture.

I disagree that waterboarding is torture. I don't think that, sleep deprivation, or similar can be classified in the same vein as breaking bones, and pulling out finger nails.

I think anyone who puts on a uniform and goes to fight for his country should be exempt from this treatment. I don't extend the same to cowards who hide in the populace and kill women and children. Find out what we can from them, give them a military trial, and if deemed necessary execute them.

To suggest that our people will be treated differently by the enemy is leftist fantasy land.

dixidawg
04-23-2009, 06:40 PM
The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”





If this story proves to be true, does anyone's view on waterboarding change? What if it tru;y DID prevent an airliner crashing into an LA skyscraper? Would your view change?

cotts135
04-23-2009, 06:54 PM
I agree Cotts so why do you call up your man and tell him to release ALL the documents on the situation. I mean he was willing to release some of them why not release the rest so we can get some real transparency not this quasi transparency where we only release things that hurt the past administration or opposing party. I guess when members of your own party knew and signed off on the techniques then you would be reluctant too.

I would love to see him release alll the relevant memos, no argument there. If people from Congress get caught up in this web whether Democrat or Republican they need to answer for their actions.

.


As far as the techniques go correct me if i am wrong but this isn't illegal because they are not US citizens or in this country. They are not in any part of any flagged army. So how exactly is this illegal by either our constitution or the geneva convention?

The Hamdan v Rumsfeld Supreme Court ruling said that these detainees have the minimal protections under the Geneva Convention Common Article 3. The DoD on July 7 2006 said the prisoners would be afforded full protection under Common Article 3.
Detainees rights under the Constitution were addressed in Boumediene v. Bush.

cotts135
04-23-2009, 07:04 PM
I have no interest in prosecuteing anyone for doing anything to terrorist or those who wish us wiped from the face of the earth....right or wrong.

Cotts why exactly do you feel so strongly about protecting and/or helping those who hate us and try at every turn to kill us?

Your mistaken with what the law says and what I feel about these people. Do you think you despise them anymore than me? Trust me you don't, however call me old fashion or what have you, but I believe strongly that we should uphold laws and agreements we are party to and if people make bad decisions then let them be held accountable

Franco
04-23-2009, 07:18 PM
I can only hope there are enough remaining true Americans that understand how their freedoms have eroded into socialism, so they know what to return to. Not sure when this will happen. Probably take a generation before the sheeple wise up; certainly beyond the ages of the 60's flower children.

UB

Yup, that is a huge problem and the way things are going, there won't be enough true Americans left.

Just look at how our demographics have shifted since WW2. The Democrats have financed the growth of poverty for too long and both parties have turned thier backs to the illegal invasion problem. I too fear that our heritage and culture will fade away. I don't think that those that love our heritage and those that despise our heritage, can live in harmony in thier New America.

Franco
04-23-2009, 07:28 PM
I'd bet you also know that following WWII the United States of America successfully tried and convicted people of war crimes. One of the crimes: waterboarding...but then you knew that.

.

Oh please! Do you really hate our heritage that much that you would use this completely out of context?

The soldiers of the Imperial Empire of Japan that were executed for waterboarding also had at least 15 other counts of torture, all more harsh that waterboarding! Try starvation, beatings, electrical shock, sleeping in human feces are JUST SOME OF THE CHARGES that got them in front of a firing squad.

jefflab5
04-23-2009, 08:05 PM
All I can say is god help us all if we as a nation are ever involved in another war such as WWI or WWII.

I would love for somebody to tell me from the sociology end of it how we have morphed into a country of WEENIES!

I stand by my earlier statement. I want the government / professionals whose feet are on the ground in the thick of it to do what is necessary to keep me and my family safe... period.

What we do not need is a bunch of pansy politicians playing politics with our national security and putting our soldiers in the position where they begin to second guess their actions on the field. That is how people get killed.