PDA

View Full Version : Oboma's Morals Don't Trump Our Safety



Julie R.
04-27-2009, 12:22 PM
I had to read this twice and then double check it was actually in the Washington Post. But indeed it was one of two lead stories on torture, above the fold in the newly revamped Outlook section, which combines opinion with book reviews. The author, Michael Scheuer, headed the CIA's Osama Bin Laden unit from 1996-1999.


Americans should be clear on what Obomo has done. In a breathtaking display of self-righteousness and intellectual arrogance, the president told Americans that his personal beliefs are more important than protecting their homes and their families. The interrogation techniques in question, the president asserted, are a sign that Americans have lost their "moral compass," a compliment similar to Attorney General Eric Holder's identifying them as "moral cowards." Mulling Obomo's claim, one can wonder what could be more moral for a president than doing all that is needed to defend America and its citizens? Or, asked another way, is it moral for the president of the United States to abandon intelligence tools that have saved the lives and property of Americans and their allies in favor of his own ideological beliefs?

The entire article is here in case you thought I was making it up....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403459.html

YardleyLabs
04-27-2009, 12:58 PM
Note that the comments are the author's interpretation of Obama's decision not to permit torture, not something Obama actually said. That aside, I do not believe that torture is justified. Clearly there have been times and places where torture was considered acceptable as a method of questioning and as a form of punishment. Our founding fathers were reacting against such policies when they included the fourth, fifth, and eighth amendments in our Constitution. Our continued rejection of torture was at the foundation of our ratification of the Geneva Conventions, which have the force of law in the US, and of our prosecution of Japanese officers following WWII for war crimes.

The rejection of torture is a statement about our own moral values -- not the moral values of our enemies -- and is not based on an assessment of the efficacy of torture techniques. However, it has been clear for centuries that persons being tortured are likely to say whatever they believe will end the torture, whether it is true or not.

I believe that those who condone torture are undermining the moral fabric of our country. I am a child of the post WWII period. I grew up believing that what distinguished us as a country were the moral values to which we committed ourselves as a country. Foremost among these are the beliefs that the ends, however noble, do not justify the the use of immoral means, and that we must act as a nation of laws even when we are dealing with the lawless.

My personal dislike of the Bush administration, and especially the high priests Cheney and Rove, was that it abandoned these values in the name of expediency. The fact that it never even questioned whether or not this abandonment was actually effective is just one more example of the administration's overall incompetence. It has nothing to do with the morality of the actions taken.

Julie R.
04-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Jeff, I might agree with you if the torture methods used were really torture and not just trumped up media fascination with anything that's not sweet-talking and providing creature comforts to criminals. I agree there are some things that have been done were improper and those, I believe, are best dealt with internally, not judged in the court of public opinion on the internet and on the pages of the mainstream media. I also believe that our military and defense agencies should have some tools at their disposal to use to extract vital national security information from captured enemy combatants that the general public does not need to know about or pass judgment on. I'm not advocating dragging bloated, beheaded corpses down Pennsylvania Avenue. But if waterboarding would've prevented the events of Sept. 11 the ends would've justified the means.

YardleyLabs
04-27-2009, 02:08 PM
Julie, I will admit that there are circumstances in which I would personally do something completely illegal and still feel morally justified. This could include circumstances in which I might kill another person that I believed to be a threat to those I loved even if the circumstances would not support a "self defense" claim. However, I would fully expect to be prosecuted in those circumstances and would assume that I would pay the price of my decision. I can envision circumstances where a member of our armed forces or CIA, or even a police officer, might make a similar decision. I might agree with their judgment, but I would still prosecute the action if it were illegal.

With respect to the tactics allowed by the administration memos, they seem to suffer from a case of "tortured" logic in their efforts to convince. In my mind, the test of whether or not an activity is "torture" is whether you would consider it torture if done to a member of your family without regard for "guilt" or "innocence".

Personally, I would consider waterboarding someone several times per day for a month to be torture. But then, I'm an asthmatic, and have nightmares about asphyxiation that sometimes turn out to be real. It's like the old joke that if you would sleep with someone for $1 million, we already know what you are. After that it's only a matter of negotiating the price.:rolleyes:

Uncle Bill
04-27-2009, 02:55 PM
Among your many talents, Jeff, is your incredible ability to promote falsehoods, and continue to drink the BHO,Pelosi,Reed,socialistic koolaid. This comment is total proof of your complete brain-washing by your Democrat/socialistic leaders.

"My personal dislike of the Bush administration, and especially the high priests Cheney and Rove, was that it abandoned these values in the name of expediency. The fact that it never even questioned whether or not this abandonment was actually effective is just one more example of the administration's overall incompetence. It has nothing to do with the morality of the actions taken."

Your continued bashing of the previous administration, despite all the facts pointing to your beloved leaders were just as privy to all that was happening, is making your posts as laughable as many of your sycophantic suck-up followers. I used to think you were at a slightly higher intelligence level, but it doesn't seem to matter. Will the discovery that Soros is pulling all the strings that makes Obama dance have any dissapointment for you? Doubt it.

UB

Raymond Little
04-27-2009, 03:04 PM
"abandoned these values in the name of expediency"
Yeah Jeff, Towel Heads kill over 3000 in downtown
New York and "EXPEDIENCY" is the the last thing our
government would be interested in.:mad:


Jumper Cable Regards;)

YardleyLabs
04-27-2009, 03:30 PM
Among your many talents, Jeff, is your incredible ability to promote falsehoods, and continue to drink the BHO,Pelosi,Reed,socialistic koolaid. This comment is total proof of your complete brain-washing by your Democrat/socialistic leaders.

"My personal dislike of the Bush administration, and especially the high priests Cheney and Rove, was that it abandoned these values in the name of expediency. The fact that it never even questioned whether or not this abandonment was actually effective is just one more example of the administration's overall incompetence. It has nothing to do with the morality of the actions taken."

Your continued bashing of the previous administration, despite all the facts pointing to your beloved leaders were just as privy to all that was happening, is making your posts as laughable as many of your sycophantic suck-up followers. I used to think you were at a slightly higher intelligence level, but it doesn't seem to matter. Will the discovery that Soros is pulling all the strings that makes Obama dance have any dissapointment for you? Doubt it.

UB

We have all known about the administration's use of "harsh" interrogation techniques long before the memos were published and, to his credit, McCain actively opposed those tactics. That's one of the things that makes the attacks on Obama for publishing the administration memos so laughable.

Everyone already knew. All he added were the actual rationales used. Many in Congress presumably knew about the tactics earlier than the rest of us. Nothing I have said excuses them from any responsibility. However, in singling out Cheney for his special role, I am doing no more than he did himself. He has championed an "anything goes" morality that disgusts me and that I believe violates everything that makes America great.

BTW, I actually like Soros and admire many of his activites, just as I admire the activities of Bill Gates' father who has played a strong role campaigning to preserve estate taxes. Are only conservatives allowed to use their money to suport their politics, or is Soros somehow more insidious than that other immigrant, Rupert Murdoch?

kb27_99
04-27-2009, 03:34 PM
Jeff did you do alot of drugs as a young man???


confused,


Kevin

YardleyLabs
04-27-2009, 03:42 PM
Jeff did you do alot of drugs as a young man???


confused,


Kevin
What's "a lot"?:):)

I can say honestly that I have not been stoned from drugs or alcohol since 1973. Can you say the same? If not, maybe that's why you're confused.:rolleyes:

kb27_99
04-27-2009, 03:45 PM
What's "a lot"?:):)

I can say honestly that I have not been stoned from drugs or alcohol since 1973. Can you say the same? If not, maybe that's why you're confused.:rolleyes:

Jeff i disagree with you on alot of things but that one did put a huge smile on my face. I was born in 72, didnt get stoned until the 90s.


cheers,

Kevin

Joe S.
04-27-2009, 03:55 PM
Jeff, I might agree with you if the torture methods used were really torture and not just trumped up media fascination with anything that's not sweet-talking and providing creature comforts to criminals. I agree there are some things that have been done were improper and those, I believe, are best dealt with internally, not judged in the court of public opinion on the internet and on the pages of the mainstream media. I also believe that our military and defense agencies should have some tools at their disposal to use to extract vital national security information from captured enemy combatants that the general public does not need to know about or pass judgment on. I'm not advocating dragging bloated, beheaded corpses down Pennsylvania Avenue. But if waterboarding would've prevented the events of Sept. 11 the ends would've justified the means.

Julie -

Have you been waterboarded?

Kind Regards,

Joe S.

Bob Gutermuth
04-27-2009, 04:22 PM
If I were John Walsh or the father of Jessica Lunsford or some other child that had been kidnapped and assaulted by a pervert, I would HOPE the cops DID use tough interrogation methods to try and find my child alive. By the same token, I don't care what form of pressure the CIA or Mil Int types use on suspected bigshots in the terrorist are us camps, so long as the information gleaned is good info most of the time. All comrade Osama is doing is taking the press spotlight off his own lack of success on any front, and giving the liberal media a reason to jump on fmr Pres Bush. He (Osama) is likely also killing morale among those field agents from CIA and other govt organizations that are risking their gonads trying to get info to protect US.

badbullgator
04-27-2009, 04:36 PM
Julie -

Have you been waterboarded?

Kind Regards,

Joe S.


I kinda think she might enjoy it.......

the kind you don't bring home to mother....... (one of her favorites singers I bet;-):D) regards

cotts135
04-27-2009, 07:25 PM
For all you people who defend Bush and his torture tactics can you please , please show me some evidence that it worked. You all go on and defend him for using these methods but have yet to show how it has done anything. This stuff does not work. If you are confused read that sentence again or provide some proof.
Not only does it not work it is against the law. What is so hard to understand about that. Julie in one of her posts admits that maybe everything may not have been kosher with what went on but goes on to say that these things should discussed and decided behind closed doors, not in the mainstream media and elsewhere. That leads me to believe that she thinks it should be a 2 tier legal system. One for the political elites, and another for the common folk. Lets hold them accountable , this is not about politics it is about right and wrong. It is not about some ideological believe like some would have you think. What could be more idealogical than believing in a have and have not legal system.
And then for all you people of religion, of which I know there are quite a few, this is morally wrong also.

Marvin S
04-27-2009, 07:56 PM
For all you people who defend Bush and his torture tactics can you please , please show me some evidence that it worked. You all go on and defend him for using these methods but have yet to show how it has done anything. This stuff does not work.

You folks are the one's doing the criticizing , why don't you provide conclusive proof of your statements. I believe it will work under the right circumstances. BTW, these were interrogation methods that have been time tested & were not GW's exclusively.

Your guy is proving himself to be so clueless that you folks can only criticize past issues? On whose watch was the CIA originally gutted?

badbullgator
04-27-2009, 08:09 PM
For all you people who defend Bush and his torture tactics can you please , please show me some evidence that it worked. You all go on and defend him for using these methods but have yet to show how it has done anything. This stuff does not work. If you are confused read that sentence again or provide some proof.
Not only does it not work it is against the law. What is so hard to understand about that. Julie in one of her posts admits that maybe everything may not have been kosher with what went on but goes on to say that these things should discussed and decided behind closed doors, not in the mainstream media and elsewhere. That leads me to believe that she thinks it should be a 2 tier legal system. One for the political elites, and another for the common folk. Lets hold them accountable , this is not about politics it is about right and wrong. It is not about some ideological believe like some would have you think. What could be more idealogical than believing in a have and have not legal system.
And then for all you people of religion, of which I know there are quite a few, this is morally wrong also.

You know it is a hard concept to get around in our right to know everything world, but maybe, just maybe there are things that we do not need to know and being known by every Tom Dick and Abdul in the world could be a bad thing. I am pretty sure since the beginning of our great nation men have done bad things in order to protect us. Asking us to prove that it did work is not as easy as one of us dialing up the Pentagon and asking for proof.
One of my Nephews (one of many nephews serving or that have) was in a Striker force and he is an interrogator. What level did he interrogate to I don’t know, but I do know that having very similar conversations with him he has said they gained valuable information more times than not. He currently works for a “private firm” in Iraq doing interrogations for the Navy. What is the Navy doing in Iraq, well he is generally with a SEAL team and interrogates those who can provide information. I can tell you he is a good person and would not harm anyone simply for the fun of it. In fact it was not too many years ago when his mother asked me to have a talk with him because he was ready to quit HS football because he didn’t like getting beat up all the time in games and practice. Those who criticize what is and has been done I feel don’t firmly grasp what is at stake and that is easy to do sitting her on rtf and having never been face to face with those who mean us harm

BrianW
04-27-2009, 08:14 PM
That leads me to believe that she thinks it should be a 2 tier legal system. One for the political elites, and another for the common folk.

Uh, I've got news for you, there already is.
For confirmation just look at members of, as well as failed nominees for, the current Administration.

Jerry D Herring
04-27-2009, 08:27 PM
look all that i know is i am here in the shit. sorry for the language. but i really dont care. but i am pretty sure that i read that Frm Pres Clinton had comrade osama and a silver platter and everyone told him to act and he didnt. so its not just one administrations mess up. i just know that i cant shoot back at the enemy until i can positivley identify that he was shooting at me. i cant get a CAB if i am hit by a mortar while walking to the chow hall because it wasnt "defenitive enemy contact" but some guy in virginia can get a bronze star for sitting behind a computer and dropping a bomb from a UAV. explain to me how thats right. you know we all dont agree with alot of things but i think if what they were doing is wrong then you know in the end when they meet the man upstairs he will give them what they deserve if it was wrong. so there are so many things that tie my hands here that if they capture that guy that did the bombing and they smack him around a little bit then so be it. if it gets them just an inkling of information then it served its purpose. i by no means condone or disapprove of their methods. i think if you are willing to blow yourself up to kill thousands then you getting smacked around buy a few people trying to get you tell them something then what right do you have to bitch. and who are you bleeding hearts that think these people have rights. hell we dont have rights when they capture us. hell they freaking chop our heads off!!!!! i dont know maybe im just ranting because i am tired of seeing my battle buddie get blown up and there was something they could do about it and didnt because someone said it was wrong. i think people are put in situations and they make an on the spot decision. if that decision is right or wrong then so be it they will get punished in the end. if what those guys did at gitmo helped then who cares if what they did didnt get results then they probably would have only done it once. and tried something else. i know what i am saying probably dont make sense to you or it just sounds like a rant but i have a point. sometimes you have to fight evil with evil. not saying that it right. i just hope that yall dont interpret this the wrong way. thanks for listening.

Franco
04-27-2009, 08:41 PM
" if they capture that guy that did the bombing and they smack him around a little bit then so be it. if it gets them just an inkling of information then it served its purpose. i by no means condone or disapprove of their methods. i think if you are willing to blow yourself up to kill thousands then you getting smacked around buy a few people trying to get you tell them something then what right do you have to bitch.



Couldn't say it better myself, well put.

Shame on our treasonist Federal Government! What we lack is leadership on the Federal level.

Am I the only one that beleives that Congress, and the White House are out of control?

badbullgator
04-27-2009, 08:43 PM
Couldn't say it better myself, well put.

Shame on our treasonist Federal Government! What we lack is leadership on the Federal level.

Am I the only one that beleives that Congress, and the White House are out of control?


Franco do you read this forum, you are not alone

BTW- that is a nice looking dog in your avatar. Who is he/she

Matt McKenzie
04-27-2009, 08:56 PM
look all that i know is i am here in the shit. sorry for the language. but i really dont care. but i am pretty sure that i read that Frm Pres Clinton had comrade osama and a silver platter and everyone told him to act and he didnt. so its not just one administrations mess up. i just know that i cant shoot back at the enemy until i can positivley identify that he was shooting at me. i cant get a CAB if i am hit by a mortar while walking to the chow hall because it wasnt "defenitive enemy contact" but some guy in virginia can get a bronze star for sitting behind a computer and dropping a bomb from a UAV. explain to me how thats right. you know we all dont agree with alot of things but i think if what they were doing is wrong then you know in the end when they meet the man upstairs he will give them what they deserve if it was wrong. so there are so many things that tie my hands here that if they capture that guy that did the bombing and they smack him around a little bit then so be it. if it gets them just an inkling of information then it served its purpose. i by no means condone or disapprove of their methods. i think if you are willing to blow yourself up to kill thousands then you getting smacked around buy a few people trying to get you tell them something then what right do you have to bitch. and who are you bleeding hearts that think these people have rights. hell we dont have rights when they capture us. hell they freaking chop our heads off!!!!! i dont know maybe im just ranting because i am tired of seeing my battle buddie get blown up and there was something they could do about it and didnt because someone said it was wrong. i think people are put in situations and they make an on the spot decision. if that decision is right or wrong then so be it they will get punished in the end. if what those guys did at gitmo helped then who cares if what they did didnt get results then they probably would have only done it once. and tried something else. i know what i am saying probably dont make sense to you or it just sounds like a rant but i have a point. sometimes you have to fight evil with evil. not saying that it right. i just hope that yall dont interpret this the wrong way. thanks for listening.

Jerry,
Don't worry about what these couch potatoes have to say. It isn't that they are stupid, it's just that they know so much that just ain't so. You just keep on doing what you're doing and stay safe.

Franco
04-27-2009, 08:59 PM
Franco do you read this forum, you are not alone

BTW- that is a nice looking dog in your avatar. Who is he/she



Yes I do, just looking for a big AMEN!

That's my pup, I call him Chevalier. It's French for knight since his reg. name is The Dark Knight II. Best Batman movie ever. ;-)

He's by FC AFC Shaq and out of a MH dam by FC AFC Star II.

That pick was when he was 4 months old he just turned 5 months!:eek:
He just finished teething. Taught him hold a month a ago and I can walk him on lead with him holding a soft knobby plastic bumper. He great with sit, I place him on a four inch high platform and he'll sit for 3 minutes, just watching me at 20 feet away. I've been doing some push/pull on the platform getting him to heel around to the left and right. Also, doing simple casting including backs off the platform. He is going to Mark Smith when he turns 5.5 months old. He's already been CC'd on "here" and "sit", I did that while he was teething.

BrianW
04-28-2009, 12:45 AM
Am I the only one that beleives that Congress, and the White House are out of control?
No, the Congress/WH are in perfect control.
Whoever is writing what their teleprompters tell them to say is the one out of control! ;-)

cotts135
04-28-2009, 06:46 AM
This is how torture is defined. The whole excerpt can be found here:http://www.amnestyusa.org/war-on-terror/reports-statements-and-issue-briefs/torture-and-the-law/page.do?id=1107981

What is torture?

Torture cannot be defined by a list of prohibited practices. Human rights treaties define it in a number of different ways, reflecting the different contexts in which they were drafted and the purposes of each particular treaty.

The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1984 and entered into force on June 26, 1987.

It defines torture as any act by which:

severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:

* obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
* punishing him/her for an act s/he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed
* intimidating or coercing him/her or a third person
* or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind;

when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.*

Every act of torture is a crime under international law.

* If torture is committed in an armed conflict, it constitutes the war crime of torture.
* If torture is committed as part of a systematic or a widespread pattern of similar acts, it constitutes the crime against humanity of torture.
* The Convention against Torture prohibits torture as an independent crime, as a war crime, and as a crime against humanity, absolutely and in all circumstances.
* The Geneva Conventions prohibit the war crime of torture in both international wars and internal conflicts such as civil wars or rebellions.
* The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court prohibits torture when it constitutes genocide, a crime against humanity or a war crime.

Are there exceptions to the prohibition against torture?

No. Article 2(2) of the Convention states that: "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

The prohibition of torture has a special status in international law. It is part of customary international law, which means it is binding on all states, whether or not they have ratified any of the international human rights treaties.

The prohibition on torture is also a ''peremptory norm,'' which means that it cannot be overruled by any other law or by local custom.

The United States ratified the Convention against Torture in October 1994. The Convention entered into force for the United States on November 20, 1994.

YardleyLabs
04-28-2009, 07:00 AM
Good post. In case it's not obvious, ratification of a treaty requires submission by the President -- in this case Clinton -- and ratification by a 2/3 vote majority of the Senate. A ratified treaty has the full effect of law in the United States.

Don Smith
04-28-2009, 07:55 AM
Have you been waterboarded?

I've not been waterboarded, but I've seen it demonstrated on TV 4 or 5 times. Perhaps I'm missing something, but what I'm seeing is nothing compared to what they did to us at He!! night in the fraternity in undergrad school. This is NOT like the waterboarding that the Japanese did during WWII - with salt water, filling up the stomach and then jumping up and down on it. And putting a catapillar in the cell with a terrorist frightened of insects and sleep deprivation seems pretty mild to me.

steved05
04-28-2009, 08:11 AM
"especially the high priests Cheney and Rove"
What does Obama know? Who will his high priests be? Let's not forget even Palin had more experience then he did.

zeus3925
04-28-2009, 08:25 AM
Bash on, Jeff! I don't know why these guys get their dander up when ever the last administration gets criticized. I hope never to see the likes of them again!

Goose
04-28-2009, 08:53 AM
Dear Leader's Administration has clearly defined what torture is........having to pay taxes.

badbullgator
04-28-2009, 09:13 AM
Yes I do, just looking for a big AMEN!

That's my pup, I call him Chevalier. It's French for knight since his reg. name is The Dark Knight II. Best Batman movie ever. ;-)

He's by FC AFC Shaq and out of a MH dam by FC AFC Star II.

That pick was when he was 4 months old he just turned 5 months!:eek:
He just finished teething. Taught him hold a month a ago and I can walk him on lead with him holding a soft knobby plastic bumper. He great with sit, I place him on a four inch high platform and he'll sit for 3 minutes, just watching me at 20 feet away. I've been doing some push/pull on the platform getting him to heel around to the left and right. Also, doing simple casting including backs off the platform. He is going to Mark Smith when he turns 5.5 months old. He's already been CC'd on "here" and "sit", I did that while he was teething.


Very nice. Enjoy the ride

Patrick Johndrow
04-28-2009, 09:35 AM
NObama is amoral so the article is wrong.

Julie R.
04-28-2009, 11:17 AM
A couple of things, first in answer to Joe S.: No, I have never been waterboarded as you know, and this is pertinent....how? Have the Dear Leader's officials setting the policy on what is and is not acceptable all been waterboarded? No? Have any of them ever served in the military, other than a desk jockey?

Second: I find Jerry D Herring's argument much more eloquent if elucidated less clearly than Cotts'. I don't really care how some egghead in an ivory (or should that be pinko) tower defines torture. I think the men and women on the frontlines making sure we can argue about this stuff on the internet probably have a much better idea of what should and shouldn't be acceptable.

Third, I absolutely agree with the premise of the original article which I posted. And that is that Dear Leader thinks it's nice to be important, but more important to be nice. I just hope nothing really bad happens on his watch....

Uncle Bill
04-28-2009, 12:08 PM
A couple of things, first in answer to Joe S.: No, I have never been waterboarded as you know, and this is pertinent....how? Have the Dear Leader's officials setting the policy on what is and is not acceptable all been waterboarded? No? Have any of them ever served in the military, other than a desk jockey?

Second: I find Jerry D Herring's argument much more eloquent if elucidated less clearly than Cotts'. I don't really care how some egghead in an ivory (or should that be pinko) tower defines torture. I think the men and women on the frontlines making sure we can argue about this stuff on the internet probably have a much better idea of what should and shouldn't be acceptable.

Third, I absolutely agree with the premise of the original article which I posted. And that is that Dear Leader thinks it's nice to be important, but more important to be nice. I just hope nothing really bad happens on his watch....

When I read what Joe posted, I could only think "How Small". HEY JOE...HAVE ANYONE IN EITHER OF THOSE 3 PLANES...IN THE TOWERS...IN THE PENTAGON???? That question to Julie wasn't only small-minded, it was assinine.

It's so amusing to see all these lefty puffed chests when it comes to what they consider torture. God help me, but I so hope they will find themselves in a situation that will cause them to realize how idiotic their views are. They are all living like the atheist outside the foxhole.

In the words of Pat Buchannen:

"Certainly, Cheney and Bush, who make no apologies for what they authorized to keep America safe for seven and a half years, should be held to account. But so, too, should Barack Obama, if U.S. citizens die in a terror attack the CIA might have prevented, had its interrogators not been tied to an Army Field Manual written for dealing with soldiers, not al-Qaida killers who favor "soft targets" such as subways, airliners and office buildings."

My only complaint is we all knew what BHO believed and what he would do, just as we know what the towel-heads will do...they keep telling us. My bitch isn't with them...they warned us. My concern is with all you lefties that enabled BHO, and continue to enable the jihadists. Now you will all be held to account for what peril you have placed this Nation in. Quite frankly there are many of us that are fed up with pulling your azzes out of the fire. As Dennis Miller states..."I'm in favor of helping the helpless, but I have no such empathy for the clueless."

UB

BrianW
04-28-2009, 12:25 PM
1. Torture cannot be defined by a list of prohibited practices.

2. Human rights treaties define it in a number of different ways, reflecting the different contexts in which they were drafted and the purposes of each particular treaty.

3. The Convention against Torture...defines torture as any act by which:

severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:

* obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession

For the sake of debate, according to the info heretofore provided:

1. Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, use of insects, etc is NOT defined as torture, here in this document.

2. There are admittedly differing points of view on what constitutes torture, particularly in regards to one's political goals/agendas.

3. Nowhere in this document does it prohibit the use of pain or suffering, whether physical or mental to obtain information.
It does prohibit the use of severe ...
It also does not allow for whether a particular technique may "work" or not. According to this, reasonable forced coercion could be acceptable.

So based on the given information, we are forced to debate/decide what constitutes "severe" pain or suffering. According to the above, the definition of which is allowed to be viewed in context. In essence, "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is, to quote a familiar Democrat.

If one accepts that mock executions, hanging by limbs, sexual assault, electrical shocks and beatings are "torture" and thus, "severe", then could not something far less forcible than those techniques be considered less than severe within that context, and therefore reasonable?

Gerry Clinchy
04-28-2009, 08:37 PM
About what constitutes "severe" pain and suffering.

If it was "torture" to put an insect in the cell with the detainee who had a unreasonable fear of insects ... what if a detainee is claustrophobic? Is it "torture" to put him in a standard size cell while being detained if it triggers his phobia?

We could get to the point of the ridiculous on what we need to do to be nice enough to these non-uniformed, combatants.

Leddyman
04-28-2009, 10:20 PM
Julie -

Have you been waterboarded?

Kind Regards,

Joe S.

Hey there sir, I have been waterboarded. I was in the 3rd reconnaissance Bn., 3rd Mar Div, USMC, in Okinawa from 85 to 89. I went to sere school in Kalifornia in 87. I've been waterboarded, stood naked in a chin deep hole filled with cold water, sprayed with firehoses to enforce sleep deprivation (72 hours BTW) slapped, starved, cussed, and had psychological interrogation techniques used on me. This was all done roughly simultaneously. It sucks so much you wouldn't believe it. In those days they used little guys inn VC uniforms to do it. (we are always fighting the last war but that's another story)

It ain't torture. True torture breaks your body in order to break your mind it results in catastrophic physical damage to the body. Look at McCain he got tortured. I have a few bad dreams but they aren't about waterboarding. Because it isn't torture. only three people were ever waterboarded according to the reports. It seems that it saved some lives. Did I mention I've had it done to me? it isn't torture.

How do you feel about the use of drugs for interrogation?

Sodium Pentathol regards,

Losthwy
04-29-2009, 12:08 AM
[quote=Leddyman;437609]Hey there sir, I have been waterboarded. I was in the 3rd reconnaissance Bn., 3rd Mar Div, USMC, in Okinawa from 85 to 89. I went to sere school in Kalifornia in 87. I've been waterboarded, stood naked in a chin deep hole filled with cold water, sprayed with firehoses to enforce sleep deprivation (72 hours BTW) slapped, starved, cussed, and had psychological interrogation techniques used on me. quote]

Were you a POW? Or was it training? A POW isn't going home. A soldier in training knows he's going home. Were you waterboarded, lets say 80 times in a year? My guess yiou are slanted right wing from the spelling of California.

JDogger
04-29-2009, 12:41 AM
[qoute=Leddyman;437609]How do you feel about the use of drugs for interrogation?
/quote]

"it depends" .

What drugs? Me or Her?

JD

Jerry D Herring
04-29-2009, 03:23 PM
here i go agian. "Severe" i want someone to post the definition of "Severe" because when i think severe i think cutting off toes, fingers, poking with a hot poker you just pulled out of a fire something around that nature. so give me your definition of severe torture. and ill give you mine.

YardleyLabs
04-29-2009, 04:08 PM
here i go agian. "Severe" i want someone to post the definition of "Severe" because when i think severe i think cutting off toes, fingers, poking with a hot poker you just pulled out of a fire something around that nature. so give me your definition of severe torture. and ill give you mine.
I'll stick with the definition I gave before: "In my mind, the test of whether or not an activity is "torture" is whether you would consider it torture if done to a member of your family without regard for "guilt" or "innocence"."

Would you consider waterboarding a member of your family several times per day as part of an overall indefinite incarceration to be torture? I would. Or to put it another way, maybe we should simply require that all interrogators undergo the exact same questioning techniques that they apply to others each and every time they choose to use them, for the same amount of time and the same number of repetitions. If it's not torture then they would presumably not mind.

The fact is that the authorized techniques are being used in the the belief that pain, fear, and despair will elicit the desired information. That seems like a good definition of torture. Many justify this behavior as being OK because it is being inflicted on immoral people. That is moral relativism.

The acceptability of the actions we take is defined by our morals, not the morals of those we have incarcerated. We are defined by our actions, not theirs. I choose not to be defined by the techniques authorized in the published memos and am happy that the administration has rejected those techniques as immoral.

Joe S.
04-29-2009, 04:49 PM
A couple of things, first in answer to Joe S.: No, I have never been waterboarded as you know, and this is pertinent....how? Have the Dear Leader's officials setting the policy on what is and is not acceptable all been waterboarded? No? Have any of them ever served in the military, other than a desk jockey?


Julie,

I thought it pertinent because you said waterboarding wasn't torture. I was wondering what your frame of reference was as many people who haven't really experienced something find it difficult to comprehend. Sen. McCain, for example, said waterboarding is torture. It seems to me he has a frame of reference that can make a call like that.

Interesting you mentioned President Obama's staff wasn't waterboarded. I don't believe Mr. Yoo or the others that drafted the torture memo's from the safety of the White House or DOJ were waterboarded, either.

It is just a difference of opinion, Julie. That is what makes America so great. The party in power is going to do what they think is in the Nation's best interest. Fortunately, we get to talk about it.

Thanks For The Help Regards,

Joe S.

Joe S.
04-29-2009, 04:54 PM
[quote=Uncle Bill;437227]When I read what Joe posted, I could only think "How Small". HEY JOE...HAVE ANYONE IN EITHER OF THOSE 3 PLANES...IN THE TOWERS...IN THE PENTAGON???? That question to Julie wasn't only small-minded, it was assinine.

Bill -

I lost a friend in the Towers. Another friend was injuried at the Pentagon. Went I went back to work that night I drove through the smoke from the still smoldering Pentagon.

Small Is A Matter Of Perspective Regards,

Joe S.

Joe S.
04-29-2009, 04:56 PM
Hey there sir, I have been waterboarded. I was in the 3rd reconnaissance Bn., 3rd Mar Div, USMC, in Okinawa from 85 to 89. I went to sere school in Kalifornia in 87. I've been waterboarded, stood naked in a chin deep hole filled with cold water, sprayed with firehoses to enforce sleep deprivation (72 hours BTW) slapped, starved, cussed, and had psychological interrogation techniques used on me. This was all done roughly simultaneously. It sucks so much you wouldn't believe it. In those days they used little guys inn VC uniforms to do it. (we are always fighting the last war but that's another story)

It ain't torture. True torture breaks your body in order to break your mind it results in catastrophic physical damage to the body. Look at McCain he got tortured. I have a few bad dreams but they aren't about waterboarding. Because it isn't torture. only three people were ever waterboarded according to the reports. It seems that it saved some lives. Did I mention I've had it done to me? it isn't torture.

How do you feel about the use of drugs for interrogation?

Sodium Pentathol regards,

True torture breaks your mind and leaves your body intact.

Thanks For Your Service Regards,

Joe S.

Uncle Bill
04-29-2009, 05:24 PM
This is so patronizing it's beyond pathetic, Jeff. Your condescension is second to none on this board.

The acceptability of the actions we take is defined by our morals, not the morals of those we have incarcerated. We are defined by our actions, not theirs. I choose not to be defined by the techniques authorized in the published memos and am happy that the administration has rejected those techniques as immoral.

PUHLEESE!...You'd be happy eating road apples if your messiah asked you to.

Between you and Joe determining if conservatives don't experience any of the useful interrogation techniques, we can't comment on them, or be in favor of them, especially in wartime. Should we then conclude that you are in favor of homosexuality, because you've experienced that? Or you favor choice because you and your wife, or significant other, had an abortion, and the babies life was inconsequential to your 'beliefs'?

How do you "fall-on-the-sword" democrats look in the mirror. You may dispute us calling you un-American, but how do you go to church and not be considered a hypocrite?

If your an atheist, I can understand your beliefs in these areas. The same can be said for the Satanic cults. Certainly Hugh has illustrated that with his pathetically tasteless 'cartoon'. But your parties phoney morality will continue to play into the enemies hands, and your grandkids will be paying for your idiocy. The Jihad is gleefully clapping their hands, having you on their side.

UB

Jerry D Herring
04-29-2009, 05:35 PM
[quote=YardleyLabs;438048]I'll stick with the definition I gave before: "In my mind, the test of whether or not an activity is "torture" is whether you would consider it torture if done to a member of your family without regard for "guilt" or "innocence"."


ok well then eplain me this is it torture for the man who had to have his face totally rebuilt after he was hit by an IED in iraq? is it torture for all my battle buddies sitting in BAMC/WRAMC that have to undergo 30-40 surgerys a year just so that they might have the hopes to live a normal life again. so i guess if you ask me would i do the same thing to my family members then my family (ARMY) goes thru it in one way or another almost everyday. i mean what would you do if that same a$$hole showed up at the mall you go to to buy your clothes at and detonated an PBIED and one of you family members was there and didnt die from the blast but his/her life was permanently changed forever then how would you feel. im sorry but i have been on both sides of this issue. so you tell me. i dont know if you have served in the military or what but im telling you ive been here twice and what ever the hell we are doing somewhere is working to keep shit safe here.

JDogger
04-29-2009, 06:45 PM
This is so patronizing it's beyond pathetic, Jeff. Your condescension is second to none on this board.

The acceptability of the actions we take is defined by our morals, not the morals of those we have incarcerated. We are defined by our actions, not theirs. I choose not to be defined by the techniques authorized in the published memos and am happy that the administration has rejected those techniques as immoral.

PUHLEESE!...You'd be happy eating road apples if your messiah asked you to.

Between you and Joe determining if conservatives don't experience any of the useful interrogation techniques, we can't comment on them, or be in favor of them, especially in wartime. Should we then conclude that you are in favor of homosexuality, because you've experienced that? Or you favor choice because you and your wife, or significant other, had an abortion, and the babies life was inconsequential to your 'beliefs'?

How do you "fall-on-the-sword" democrats look in the mirror. You may dispute us calling you un-American, but how do you go to church and not be considered a hypocrite?

If your an atheist, I can understand your beliefs in these areas. The same can be said for the Satanic cults. Certainly Hugh has illustrated that with his pathetically tasteless 'cartoon'. But your parties phoney morality will continue to play into the enemies hands, and your grandkids will be paying for your idiocy. The Jihad is gleefully clapping their hands, having you on their side.

UB
Bill, what is hypocritical is some of right crying about baby-killing, then gleefully sending off their children and grandchildren to kill other children and grandchildren in a phony war to spread democracy. Talk about roadapples

I'm not a satanist, I'm a liberal. But I guess the distinction is blurry to you because of the roadapples you have smeared in your eyes through your fear and hatred.

And do us all a favor. Don't make the assumption that because we don't agree, that makes us Obama devotees. There has been some faulting of Obama by some here on the left in the last three months. Nothing like the hero worship of the previous eight years.


Yeah...PUHLEESE!...really,

JD

badbullgator
04-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Bill, what is hypocritical is some of right crying about baby-killing, then gleefully sending off their children and grandchildren to kill other children and grandchildren in a phony war to spread democracy. Talk about roadapples

I'm not a satanist, I'm a liberal. But I guess the distinction is blurry to you because of the roadapples you have smeared in your eyes through your fear and hatred.

And do us all a favor. Don't make the assumption that because we don't agree, that makes us Obama devotees. There has been some faulting of Obama by some here on the left in the last three months. Nothing like the hero worship of the previous eight years.


Yeah...PUHLEESE!...really,

JD


NOt all of us cry about baby killing or stem cell research, heck some of us only go to church three times a year. See what assuming gets you

Pete
04-29-2009, 08:01 PM
I would truely wonder if terriorist kidnapped obamas kids and he had 3 days to find them before they were beheaded and they had in custudy 1 of the terrorists,,,, if our hipocritical leader would rake him over the coals or tickle his feetto get the where abouts of his kids.



Pete

Cody Covey
04-29-2009, 08:01 PM
Bill, what is hypocritical is some of right crying about baby-killing, then gleefully sending off their children and grandchildren to kill other children and grandchildren in a phony war to spread democracy. Talk about roadapples

I'm not a satanist, I'm a liberal. But I guess the distinction is blurry to you because of the roadapples you have smeared in your eyes through your fear and hatred.

And do us all a favor. Don't make the assumption that because we don't agree, that makes us Obama devotees. There has been some faulting of Obama by some here on the left in the last three months. Nothing like the hero worship of the previous eight years.


Yeah...PUHLEESE!...really,

JD
Last i checked the people in the armed service volunteered to do that job. Killing babies (which is what abortion is...period) and killing enemies to protect the greater good are entirely different things.

Leddyman
04-29-2009, 11:14 PM
[quote=Leddyman;437609]Hey there sir, I have been waterboarded. I was in the 3rd reconnaissance Bn., 3rd Mar Div, USMC, in Okinawa from 85 to 89. I went to sere school in Kalifornia in 87. I've been waterboarded, stood naked in a chin deep hole filled with cold water, sprayed with firehoses to enforce sleep deprivation (72 hours BTW) slapped, starved, cussed, and had psychological interrogation techniques used on me. quote]

Were you a POW? Or was it training? A POW isn't going home. A soldier in training knows he's going home. Were you waterboarded, lets say 80 times in a year? My guess yiou are slanted right wing from the spelling of California.

This is hysterical! Somebody has an opinion on waterboarding and it isn't good enough because they haven't been waterboarded, so somebody else comes along who just happens to have been to sere school and been waterboarded and it isn't good enough because it wasn't enough times.

For your information Oblammo says he is sending the illegal combatants home. They aren't POW's they are illegal enemy combatants. The Geneva convention which you love to site defines all of these terms and in order to be a POW you have to wear a uniform among many other things like not killing civillians and children. So what if I am slanted right wing? That doesn't change the fact that I have been there done that and you are a liberal sycophant panting after this idiot in the whitehouse while you bleed your heart out for terrorists and promote the killing of millions of innocents.

JDogger
04-30-2009, 12:11 AM
Last i checked the people in the armed service volunteered to do that job. Killing babies (which is what abortion is...period) and killing enemies to protect the greater good are entirely different things.

Oh really...? In my offensive cartoon, the generals take the babies, ( your sons and daughters, and the sons and daughters of the civilians caught up in the middle of their game) and kill them. It's called war. It's not really a game. I know you won't get it...but try...war, (collateral damage,=dead civilians), capital punishment, abortion all = death.
I'm not pro-abortion, who really is? I am anti-unwanted pregnancy though.
Long story short. How much do you want the state and the church infringing in your private life?
I question your concept of the greater good.

JD

YardleyLabs
04-30-2009, 12:38 AM
This is so patronizing it's beyond pathetic, Jeff. Your condescension is second to none on this board.
I'm not sure what part of my comments you are referencing. However, I don't believe I've said anything that comes close to the arrogance of your own certain beliefs.



PUHLEESE!...You'd be happy eating road apples if your messiah asked you to.

I can assure you that if I ever have a "messiah", it will not be a politician. Your comment is just plain stupid (Excuse my bluntness, but you asked for it.).


Between you and Joe determining if conservatives don't experience any of the useful interrogation techniques, we can't comment on them, or be in favor of them, especially in wartime. Should we then conclude that you are in favor of homosexuality, because you've experienced that? Or you favor choice because you and your wife, or significant other, had an abortion, and the babies life was inconsequential to your 'beliefs'?

Actually, I never suggested that you needed to experience waterboarding to have an opinion about it. In fact, I said that my reactions to the idea of waterboarding were undoubtedly influenced by my own respiratory problems. I have never experienced it myself although at least one of the "liberals" commenting on it has. While I assume that your comments concerning my own sexuality and birth history were intended to be insulting (that is, suggesting that I must have had homosexual experiences or been party to aborting my own children), your comments simply sound ridiculous. I don't need to kill anyone to oppose murder, I don't need to rape anyone to oppose rape, etc. I remember well when abortion was illegal and what happened to many as a result. That experience is very much an integral part of why I believe government should stay out of reproductive decisions. The next time you get pregnant. I believe you should have the right to make your own decision on how you wish to handle it.


How do you "fall-on-the-sword" democrats look in the mirror. You may dispute us calling you un-American, but how do you go to church and not be considered a hypocrite?
I don't consider myself to be a "fall on your sword" kind of guy (I'm much more likely to use mine on someone else, if you haven;t already figured that out.;-)), but I guess each of us goes (or doesn't go) to a church where we feel comfortable. That's the nice thing about freedom of religion. You don't have to go to any church but if you go, it can be any church you want.


If your an atheist, I can understand your beliefs in these areas. The same can be said for the Satanic cults. Certainly Hugh has illustrated that with his pathetically tasteless 'cartoon'. But your parties phoney morality will continue to play into the enemies hands, and your grandkids will be paying for your idiocy. The Jihad is gleefully clapping their hands, having you on their side.

UB
I'm not sure which of my opinions you are equating to Satanism. Personally, I don't believe in Satan and I can think of few more radical humanists than Jesus. My morality and my politics have everything to do with my grandchildren with whom I spent a wonderful evening tonight. Hopefully, before they are adults, we will be able to reverse at least some of the damage done by GWB and his cohorts. With respect to the "Jihad", I am not in favor of any religious fanatics -- be they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or other. I do not trust anyone in government who believes they represent the will of God. That's as condescending as anyone can get.

Bob Gutermuth
04-30-2009, 08:05 AM
Waterboarding isn't torture, having to filter all the mindless leftist bovine scatology on this thread is. The terrs would confess to shooting Abe Lincoln if someone would read them this stuff 24/7.

YardleyLabs
04-30-2009, 09:31 AM
Waterboarding isn't torture, having to filter all the mindless leftist bovine scatology on this thread is. The terrs would confess to shooting Abe Lincoln if someone would read them this stuff 24/7.
And yet you read on.....:rolleyes:

Are you generally into S&M, or is this the only venue? Certainly if you are it would explain why you do not classify as torture a form of pressure designed to use pain and fear of imminent death to elicit information. As has been noted before, waterboarding is used as part of the training for SEALs because it helps prepare soldiers to deal with the types of torture they might face if captured. The techniques were drawn from those used against us in situations that we called war crimes when they happened. Anything that is a war crime when done to us is also a war crime when done by us. You can't have it both ways.

Jerry D Herring
04-30-2009, 02:51 PM
And yet you read on.....:rolleyes:

Are you generally into S&M, or is this the only venue? Certainly if you are it would explain why you do not classify as torture a form of pressure designed to use pain and fear of imminent death to elicit information. As has been noted before, waterboarding is used as part of the training for SEALs because it helps prepare soldiers to deal with the types of torture they might face if captured. The techniques were drawn from those used against us in situations that we called war crimes when they happened. Anything that is a war crime when done to us is also a war crime when done by us. You can't have it both ways.


so tell me this then what is your take on beheading. is that torture because i can tell you that their aint no training in the world that can prepare you for that. we are arguing about something that we have no control over and do you think that we are going to know the whole truth about what goes on in gitmo. Hell no. why dont you ask john mccain what it was like in a POW camp in vietnam. ask him if he was waterboarded repeatedly for information. and if you think you have control over what happens in the DOD then you need to check yourself into the luny bin. im sorry i am for freedom of press and all that comes with it but i dont think that there are somethings that the public should really know, just for their own good. it causes more trouble than it is worth. just some reporter can win a pulitzer for tellin the world that some soldier in GITMO beat the hell out of a taliban leader with a phone book or "waterboarded" him which ended in the guy giving up half of his people. i mean that is what i am talking about. its my opinion that that guy gave up all his rights when he strapped on that bomb or dug that hole and put the IED in the ground. he had no respect for anyone elses life why should i have any for his.

YardleyLabs
04-30-2009, 03:21 PM
so tell me this then what is your take on beheading. is that torture because i can tell you that their aint no training in the world that can prepare you for that. we are arguing about something that we have no control over and do you think that we are going to know the whole truth about what goes on in gitmo. Hell no. why dont you ask john mccain what it was like in a POW camp in vietnam. ask him if he was waterboarded repeatedly for information. and if you think you have control over what happens in the DOD then you need to check yourself into the luny bin. im sorry i am for freedom of press and all that comes with it but i dont think that there are somethings that the public should really know, just for their own good. it causes more trouble than it is worth. just some reporter can win a pulitzer for tellin the world that some soldier in GITMO beat the hell out of a taliban leader with a phone book or "waterboarded" him which ended in the guy giving up half of his people. i mean that is what i am talking about. its my opinion that that guy gave up all his rights when he strapped on that bomb or dug that hole and put the IED in the ground. he had no respect for anyone elses life why should i have any for his.

I don't see how anything I have said can be interpreted as approval for the barbaric practices that have been used by others. Are you suggesting that we should begin doing beheadings because they are used by Al Quaeda?

I disagree completely with your view that the government should classify information to protect the American public from itself. The only valid reason for classifying information is to avoid providing other countries and foreign groups with information that might damage our ability to defend ourselves as a nation. It should not be used to manipulate American opinion. Ultimately, the government is employed by "We, the People". When the government prevents us from learning the facts about its activities to protect itself from our reactions, it is time to fire the government. That is the reason for freedom of information laws. Being open with information obviously makes life more difficult for all those that prefer (like Cheney) to operate in secret. However, without openness, democracy is irrelevant.

Raymond Little
04-30-2009, 04:09 PM
I don't see how anything I have said can be interpreted as approval for the barbaric practices that have been used by others. Are you suggesting that we should begin doing beheadings because they are used by Al Quaeda?

I disagree completely with your view that the government should classify information to protect the American public from itself. The only valid reason for classifying information is to avoid providing other countries and foreign groups with information that might damage our ability to defend ourselves as a nation. It should not be used to manipulate American opinion. Ultimately, the government is employed by "We, the People". When the government prevents us from learning the facts about its activities to protect itself from our reactions, it is time to fire the government. That is the reason for freedom of information laws. Being open with information obviously makes life more difficult for all those that prefer (like Cheney) to operate in secret. However, without openness, democracy is irrelevant.
Hey Jeff, then why did your "Lord" allow the release of this information then? All of this B&*% SH&% has been a political witch hunt from the beginning. It's been used to manipulate the SHEEPLE like you that drink the KOOL AID.


Shoot, Shovel & Shut Up;)

Bob Gutermuth
04-30-2009, 04:47 PM
Actually Jeff you are the only one of the libs I don't have on my ignore list. At least you are willing to debate and not just call the right wing names for thier opinions.

Jerry D Herring
04-30-2009, 05:23 PM
look i dont really care is it hurting you is it hurting me? not really i still sleep at night i still wake up in the morning get shot at and go back to bed. i mean some times you got to fight fire with fire. most people dont want to know what their gov is doing because honestly they dont give two shits. as long as their work is steady they dont have to pay too much in taxes and they can own their fire arms they really dont care. maybe thats just me but you know this is why i dont watch the news and i dont pay attention to politics i vote for the guy that my gut tells me is the right guy not because he is black or white purple yellow or orange. you know why i didnt vote for comrade obama. because his campaign seemed to run like a movie trailer. he seemed to me too much like a i want people to wipe my ass for me type campaign. i voted for McCain because that man has been where i am has done what i have done, and has survived one of the worst thing that can happen to you as a soldier. i voted for experience. Obama seems like a watchdog group. he is out to make the frm administration look bad. that is all politics seems to be about to me. "what can we do to make the last guy look like and idiot." that is politics. obama ran on a campaign of change huh. well if i read right i and i am pretty sure i did, didnt obama like hire back 3/4 of the frm clinton staff. i mean i thought it was a platform of change. doesnt change mean new people. i mean throw in some unknowns hell shake things up a little have a half dem half rep staff that way there is no majority its all equal but wait i forgot thats too complicated because everyone is stepping on the little guy (joe the plumber) cant forget that guy. you guys support this guy but what was the first cut he made the training budget for the army. so you know what that mean now my soldiers that come to me out of training i cant train why oh because my commander in chief cut my legs out from under me. oh and you know two years ago the bonus for reenlisting in the army was 22700 for 4 years, this year i only got 8500 for the same amount so tell me where this government supports joe because as i look at no one is more joe than us soldiers.

K.Bullock
04-30-2009, 05:54 PM
I'm not sure what part of my comments you are referencing. However, I don't believe I've said anything that comes close to the arrogance of your own certain beliefs.


I can assure you that if I ever have a "messiah", it will not be a politician. Your comment is just plain stupid (Excuse my bluntness, but you asked for it.).

Actually, I never suggested that you needed to experience waterboarding to have an opinion about it. In fact, I said that my reactions to the idea of waterboarding were undoubtedly influenced by my own respiratory problems. I have never experienced it myself although at least one of the "liberals" commenting on it has. While I assume that your comments concerning my own sexuality and birth history were intended to be insulting (that is, suggesting that I must have had homosexual experiences or been party to aborting my own children), your comments simply sound ridiculous. I don't need to kill anyone to oppose murder, I don't need to rape anyone to oppose rape, etc. I remember well when abortion was illegal and what happened to many as a result. That experience is very much an integral part of why I believe government should stay out of reproductive decisions. The next time you get pregnant. I believe you should have the right to make your own decision on how you wish to handle it.

I don't consider myself to be a "fall on your sword" kind of guy (I'm much more likely to use mine on someone else, if you haven;t already figured that out.;-)), but I guess each of us goes (or doesn't go) to a church where we feel comfortable. That's the nice thing about freedom of religion. You don't have to go to any church but if you go, it can be any church you want.

I'm not sure which of my opinions you are equating to Satanism. Personally, I don't believe in Satan and I can think of few more radical humanists than Jesus. My morality and my politics have everything to do with my grandchildren with whom I spent a wonderful evening tonight. Hopefully, before they are adults, we will be able to reverse at least some of the damage done by GWB and his cohorts. With respect to the "Jihad", I am not in favor of any religious fanatics -- be they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or other. I do not trust anyone in government who believes they represent the will of God. That's as condescending as anyone can get.


Jeff,was Jesus a student of Greek and Roman literature, history and rhetoric or are you referring to Jesus as a humanist using the post Renaissance definition of Humanism that exalts human powers? God exalting humans ...hmmm ;) ...sorry I cannot resist.

On topic, I would object to treating enemy soldiers in any way that would be abusive, a guy fighting for his country is just that a soldier fighting for his country in an honorable fashion inside the parameters of civilized warfare. He should be given the respect that he is due.


These guys that are being refered to as enemy combatants do not carry a flag, do not report to a commander, do not respect life or the rule of law and if water boarding is the worst thing that happens to these homicidal spoiled brats of the world the that is too bad in my opinion.

That said, I think it is nobler as a nation to restrain ourselves from injustice than allowing ourselves to be desensitized. It should be a big deal when we decide to use tactics like water boarding and I am glad my sons live in a country that, even if I disagree with them, people take exception to torturing of even our enemies.

John Kelder
04-30-2009, 09:00 PM
Traitors.
Care more about the rights of foreigners than the lives and well being your own countrymen .
Waterboarding ????? What a joke . Sodium pentathol / electric / standing in water /sulphuric acid / hammer /and nails ,because I will get the information regards ,

YardleyLabs
04-30-2009, 09:51 PM
Actually Jeff you are the only one of the libs I don't have on my ignore list. At least you are willing to debate and not just call the right wing names for thier opinions.

:):) If I start calling conservatives names I would lose a pretty large percentage of my friends. After all, I do spend a fair amount of my time shooting guns and wringing the necks of birds I don't intend to eat. Not exactly the kind of conversation topic that goes over well in liberal circles.:)




Hey Jeff, then why did your "Lord" allow the release of this information then? All of this B&*% SH&% has been a political witch hunt from the beginning. It's been used to manipulate the SHEEPLE like you that drink the KOOL AID.


Shoot, Shovel & Shut Up;)

????

Maybe a more appropriate question is why didn't Bush go ahead and publish the information while he was President? Was he actually trying to preserve an element of surprise in the techniques used for questioning or was he trying to avoid political confrontations with men in his own party like McCain who believed that the use of these so called "harsh" techniques was simply a PC was of describing illegal torture?

Let me be clear. I do not trust governments even when I have voted for the people that lead them. All governments become too enamored of themselves and eventually begin abusing their power. We still need government, but we should never trust it. For that reason we should make it very difficult for our government to keep secrets even if this means that sometimes we are embarrassed.

With respect to Kool Aid, I was unfortunately too young to have been able to "ride the bus" with Ken Kesey, or to get access to the free and then still legal "Kool Aid" handed out by the Federal government in the interests of research. However, I am old enough to have done some experimenting of my own which left me with a fond appreciation of fantasy and a solid grasp on reality. I value both and believe they give me some protection from manipulation by the powers that be or the powers that wannabe.


Jeff,was Jesus a student of Greek and Roman literature, history and rhetoric or are you referring to Jesus as a humanist using the post Renaissance definition of Humanism that exalts human powers? God exalting humans ...hmmm ;) ...sorry I cannot resist.

On topic, I would object to treating enemy soldiers in any way that would be abusive, a guy fighting for his country is just that a soldier fighting for his country in an honorable fashion inside the parameters of civilized warfare. He should be given the respect that he is due.


These guys that are being refered to as enemy combatants do not carry a flag, do not report to a commander, do not respect life or the rule of law and if water boarding is the worst thing that happens to these homicidal spoiled brats of the world the that is too bad in my opinion.

That said, I think it is nobler as a nation to restrain ourselves from injustice than allowing ourselves to be desensitized. It should be a big deal when we decide to use tactics like water boarding and I am glad my sons live in a country that, even if I disagree with them, people take exception to torturing of even our enemies.

Nice post.

JDogger
04-30-2009, 10:33 PM
look i dont really care is it hurting you is it hurting me? not really i still sleep at night i still wake up in the morning get shot at and go back to bed. i mean some times you got to fight fire with fire. most people dont want to know what their gov is doing because honestly they dont give two shits. as long as their work is steady they dont have to pay too much in taxes and they can own their fire arms they really dont care. maybe thats just me but you know this is why i dont watch the news and i dont pay attention to politics i vote for the guy that my gut tells me is the right guy not because he is black or white purple yellow or orange. you know why i didnt vote for comrade obama. because his campaign seemed to run like a movie trailer. he seemed to me too much like a i want people to wipe my ass for me type campaign. i voted for McCain because that man has been where i am has done what i have done, and has survived one of the worst thing that can happen to you as a soldier. i voted for experience. Obama seems like a watchdog group. he is out to make the frm administration look bad. that is all politics seems to be about to me. "what can we do to make the last guy look like and idiot." that is politics. obama ran on a campaign of change huh. well if i read right i and i am pretty sure i did, didnt obama like hire back 3/4 of the frm clinton staff. i mean i thought it was a platform of change. doesnt change mean new people. i mean throw in some unknowns hell shake things up a little have a half dem half rep staff that way there is no majority its all equal but wait i forgot thats too complicated because everyone is stepping on the little guy (joe the plumber) cant forget that guy. you guys support this guy but what was the first cut he made the training budget for the army. so you know what that mean now my soldiers that come to me out of training i cant train why oh because my commander in chief cut my legs out from under me. oh and you know two years ago the bonus for reenlisting in the army was 22700 for 4 years, this year i only got 8500 for the same amount so tell me where this government supports joe because as i look at no one is more joe than us soldiers.

Jerry,

Thanks for your service.

Don't Re-up. It's time to come home and de-compress. Seriously...

From one vet to another, brother, come home.

JD

Jerry D Herring
04-30-2009, 10:54 PM
JD its not a matter of decompressing i am just tired of everyone bitching about what the government hides and bitching about something they havnt experienced. while they sit at home and kiss there families goodnight i am over here trying to keep my marriage together because i have been deployed more than i have been home. so decompressing aint going to make things all better. maybe if my wife wasnt paying 400 in taxas back to the state of missouri when she only made 700 then i wouldnt be so pissed off.

oh and for all of you that are bitching think about me i just reenlisted for 6 more years and all i got was a lousy 8500 dollars that was gone the day it hit the bank. so for all of you that understand thanks and for all of you that are bitching well you know what you can do.

JDogger
04-30-2009, 11:47 PM
JD its not a matter of decompressing i am just tired of everyone bitching about what the government hides and bitching about something they havnt experienced. while they sit at home and kiss there families goodnight i am over here trying to keep my marriage together because i have been deployed more than i have been home. so decompressing aint going to make things all better. maybe if my wife wasnt paying 400 in taxas back to the state of missouri when she only made 700 then i wouldnt be so pissed off.

oh and for all of you that are bitching think about me i just reenlisted for 6 more years and all i got was a lousy 8500 dollars that was gone the day it hit the bank. so for all of you that understand thanks and for all of you that are bitching well you know what you can do.

I hope you're home, safe, and kissing your family long before that six years are done.

JD