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Keith Farmer
06-12-2009, 09:46 PM
This is interesting:


http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=3145

and,

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16232

and,

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=563720

Kinda fits the whole Notre Dame honorary doctorate for Obama who is the most pro-abortion liberal to ever hold office does it not? Don't you just love that smirk???

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p193/odawgs/Obamadoctorate.jpg

Revelation 17:6 (NKJV):
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Bob Gutermuth
06-12-2009, 10:53 PM
Disgusting and disheartening

BonMallari
06-13-2009, 02:12 AM
It is really sad how the administration used the Notre Dame graduation as a guise that somehow the Catholic church was in favor of the Pro choice BHO practices. I am not Catholic but am shocked how many so called "devout Catholics" sold out for the chance to be closer to BHO. I just dont see the hysteria and attraction, its like he is in continual campaign mode and the throngs of people just eat it up. He appoints Czars who answer to no one but the President and no one in Congress speaks up and says whoa :confused:

Can the American public be this naive or too stupid to be duped by this administration and the power grab to reform the very check and balances that have made this country great..

I wonder how many Catholics who cheered at the graduation did some soul searching when they entered the little room to say "bless me Father for I have sinned"

dnf777
06-13-2009, 06:20 AM
I'm not defending Obama, but I was no fan of W either. I'm just curious, where was all the outrage when Bush appointed no less than 5 Czars??? Education Czar, Drug Czar, Homeland Security Czar......

I am Catholic (not devout, whatever that means) and amazed at the indignation regarding Notre Dame. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic Church has repeatedly affirmed it's position against the war in Iraq and the death penalty? Am I wrong? W started the war in Iraq, and as Texas Gov, signed more death warrants than anyone else in American history except Judge Roy Bean.

I'm all for the death penalty, so I'm not carping about that, but where is the consistency in everyones "Catholic values", since no one had problems and twisted shorts over W speaking at Catholic venues.

Keith Farmer
06-13-2009, 08:22 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic Church has repeatedly affirmed it's position against the war in Iraq and the death penalty?


Much like the church's long standing prohibition against abortion and most (if not all) forms of birth control. However, what we are seeing now is the underbelly of the snake as it were...more will come just wait.





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Matt McKenzie
06-13-2009, 09:33 AM
I'm not defending Obama, but I was no fan of W either. I'm just curious, where was all the outrage when Bush appointed no less than 5 Czars??? Education Czar, Drug Czar, Homeland Security Czar......

I am Catholic (not devout, whatever that means) and amazed at the indignation regarding Notre Dame. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic Church has repeatedly affirmed it's position against the war in Iraq and the death penalty? Am I wrong? W started the war in Iraq, and as Texas Gov, signed more death warrants than anyone else in American history except Judge Roy Bean.

I'm all for the death penalty, so I'm not carping about that, but where is the consistency in everyones "Catholic values", since no one had problems and twisted shorts over W speaking at Catholic venues.

Did W speak at Notre Dame?

Ken Newcomb
06-13-2009, 09:46 AM
Not sure Bush received an Honorary anything from Notre Dame, that is the difference.

Bob Gutermuth
06-13-2009, 09:58 AM
The problem with Osama speaking at ND is his staunch pro abortion stand. Such a speaker does not belong to be invited to a Catholic institutiion under any circumstances.

Roger Perry
06-13-2009, 12:16 PM
I am Catholic (not devout, whatever that means) and amazed at the indignation regarding Notre Dame. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic Church has repeatedly affirmed it's position against the war in Iraq and the death penalty? Am I wrong? W started the war in Iraq, and as Texas Gov, signed more death warrants than anyone else in American history except Judge Roy Bean.

I'm all for the death penalty, so I'm not carping about that, but where is the consistency in everyones "Catholic values", since no one had problems and twisted shorts over W speaking at Catholic venues.

Did W speak at Notre Dame?

Here ya go:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/16/732331/-CATHOLIC-PROTESTERS:-Demand-Notre-Dame-Revoke-Bushs-Honorary-Degree.


The problem with Osama speaking at ND is his staunch pro abortion stand. Such a speaker does not belong to be invited to a Catholic institutiion under any circumstances.

Bob, does that mean what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

Bob Gutermuth
06-13-2009, 01:04 PM
What it means is that Catholic institutions have no right to invite those with opposing views on articles of faith and morals to speak there.

Roger Perry
06-13-2009, 01:13 PM
What it means is that Catholic institutions have no right to invite those with opposing views on articles of faith and morals to speak there.


Then you do agree that Bush should never been invited to speak there because of his views on the death sentence since the catholic church is against capital punishment?

Every good Catholic knows that the church is strictly opposed (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/popestate.html) to capital punishment. Since Bush set records for carrying out death sentences when he was governor of Texas, you would think that the same guardians of virtue that are protesting Obama, who has never personally signed an abortion certificate, would have been out in force for a man who presided over 152 executions.

Julie R.
06-13-2009, 01:31 PM
Here ya go:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/16/732331/-CATHOLIC-PROTESTERS:-Demand-Notre-Dame-Revoke-Bushs-Honorary-Degree (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/16/732331/-CATHOLIC-PROTESTERS:-Demand-Notre-Dame-Revoke-Bushs-Honorary-Degree).






:shock::shock::shock:

Daily Kos. Hmmmmm......

Keith Farmer
06-13-2009, 02:00 PM
The point is not necessarily that Obama spoke at Notre Dame. The point is that he was asked to speak, given an honorary doctorate (even amidst staunch opposition), and now the same church body seems to be embracing abortion for its own purposes (whatever they may be).

Here is a very interesting quote directly from the Roman Catholic catechism:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (bold emphasis added)

Now, my intent is to not debate the outrageous heresy with that quotation but to clearly point out a motive for what we are seeing.

The push for ecumenism by the Pope and his church representatives is astonishing. The effort to blend the world's religions is heavily underway. Now enter Obama who is politicizing religion by trying to work from common ground principles (same thing the church is doing) with all of the big religious players (Muslims, Jews, certain "Christian" groups, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.) and one can easily see that the church must go along to accomplish its goals of a one world religion...hand in hand with a one world government.

Here is a quote from 1985 by Pope John Paul II (speaking to an audience of thousands of Muslim youths) "Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common as believers and as human beings....We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God...."



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Roger Perry
06-13-2009, 02:15 PM
:shock::shock::shock:

Daily Kos. Hmmmmm......

Mr. Obama will be the sixth sitting president to speak at a Notre Dame commencement and the ninth to be awarded an honorary degree. Even when those presidents have opposed abortion rights, as former President George W. Bush (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gyl9KAUtviW6HAJsyN6fiuaGghaQD97761D80) did, Notre Dame students protested — in his case, over his support for the death penalty.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/30/obama-visit-to-notre-dame-provokes-debate/



The New York Times :shock::shock::shock:

dnf777
06-13-2009, 02:41 PM
What it means is that Catholic institutions have no right to invite those with opposing views on articles of faith and morals to speak there.

Wow,
Do you realize that means we will have 300,000,000 different churches? I'll bet that you can find one point of faith or morals in each one of us that disagrees with the Pope, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson....take your pick!

Maybe I'm not a "devout" catholic because I have many friends with which I could find a point of contention, but instead choose to be a little tolerant and have thriving friendships surrounding things we can agree on!! ie dog training.

I'm a card carrying member of the NRA, life-member of the VFW, and hate paying enough taxes a year to buy a F350 with a chassis mount dog box...but have had gay people dine at our place, a gal that had an abortion, and even an anti-gun nut...all of whom I consider friends who I could call on in a time of need for help. Rather than shun my anti-gun friend, I invited him to dinner, and had him shooting cans with a Henry .22 by the nights' end! I doubt he's going to support the NRA, but it certainly spread a little common sense by using tolerance, rather than exclusion.

I'll get off my soap box now. And I'll throw birds with any of you guys anyday!

Keith Farmer
06-14-2009, 06:58 PM
Mr. Obama will be the sixth sitting president to speak at a Notre Dame commencement and the ninth to be awarded an honorary degree. Even when those presidents have opposed abortion rights, as former President George W. Bush (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gyl9KAUtviW6HAJsyN6fiuaGghaQD97761D80) did, Notre Dame students protested — in his case, over his support for the death penalty.


This type of argument is the same old tired approach witnessed on any playground in America...well they did it so we can too. However, the stakes are different now and the outcome is becoming altogether clear when even a cursory glance at the big picture is taken. My position is not from a stance in support of George Bush nor is it from an oppositional stance to President Obama; my position is from the viewpoint of a biblical world view and therefore objective in essence (in terms of political party or candidate/representative).

First, when Bush spoke amidst opposition there was not an alterier motive by the President in terms of pushing a pro-death agenda...Obama is different in terms of his approach to pushing his pro-death agenda in the form of the Freedom of Choice Act. Further, the Roman church, or any of its affiliates, did not respond by instituting so-called death camps for use by the government...however, that may be what is going on in Boston with the abortion issue...fetus death camps to be used to further the radical Freedom of Choice Act agenda.

The ecumenical issue is huge. I suspect that my comments on it were glossed over but the reality is that both the political climate and the religious climate is abuzz in their efforts to globalize both governmental bodies...political secular government and the church. Therefore, the apparant cowtowing by the Catholic church, in my opinion, is not surprising. However, just a few weeks ago the mood was quite different. Below are a few quotes about the prior stance (and hopefully still so) of the Catholic church; however, the tide for now has most definitely shifted ...at least in Boston:



Auxiliary Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Chicago warned of “devastating consequences” to the health care system, insisting Obama could force the closure of all Catholic hospitals in the country. (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Y2RjZmY2MmE1NmEzYTgzODg2ZWVmN2M0NzQxNmZhMzQ=)


How could he (Obama) "force the closure of ALL Catholic hospitals in the country"? Because,

"bishops dread that FOCA would require all hospitals with obstetrics programs to do abortions, a natural expectation given that Obama has spoken of abortion as a “fundamental right,” a basic government service, and a vital component of America’s “safety net.” (http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/EWThrockmorton/11596230/print/)


The response to that notion was a big huff and puff:



The bishops are not bluffing when they say they’d turn out the lights rather than comply. Nor is Auxiliary Bishop Robert Hermann of St. Louis exaggerating, I don’t think, in vowing that “any one of us would consider it a privilege to die tomorrow—to die tomorrow—to bring about the end of abortion.” (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Y2RjZmY2MmE1NmEzYTgzODg2ZWVmN2M0NzQxNmZhMzQ=)


Any one of them would consider it a privilege to die tomorrow to bring about the end of abortion???

Well,

Boston Catholic health agency in partnership providing abortion coverage
June 08, 2009

Now I am not saying the bisops are teetering but there must be an outcry by them that we have not heard yet before I buy what they are saying in terms of their opposition to this issue.

Here are a couple of articles about the issue from a while back:

http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/EWThr...1596230/print/ (http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/EWThrockmorton/11596230/print/)

http://www.slate.com/id/2205326/


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Franco
06-14-2009, 08:11 PM
Well,

Boston Catholic health agency in partnership providing abortion coverage
June 08, 2009

Now I am not saying the bisops are teetering but there must be an outcry by them that we have not heard yet before I buy what they are saying in terms of their opposition to this issue.

Here are a couple of articles about the issue from a while back:

http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/EWThr...1596230/print/ (http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/EWThrockmorton/11596230/print/)

http://www.slate.com/id/2205326/


.


I don't think the Catholic Chruch is going to stoop to working the news media with some kind of outrage. They do a great job of handling disputes internally.

So, they have a renegade parish in Boston trying to take care of the needs of thier parishioners. To do so they must live by State and Federal requirements. Looks like the Boston Catholics are looking at the big picture. Good for them!

Keith Farmer
06-14-2009, 08:37 PM
Looks like the Boston Catholics are looking at the big picture. Good for them!


The deeper issue for the "parishioners" is one of trust. If their foundational tenets are destroyed by their leaders for political/ecumenical gain then all is in vain is it not?

What foundational stone will be turned next Franco?

The adage goes everyone needs someone they can lean on...certainly looks like the Bostonians have lost a shoulder...a big one to many!

You relate in terms of the financial markets...investing in the stock market, according to you, is a fools errand...the same may be said of associating with the Roman church soon.

By saying that they, the bishops, would consider it a privilege to die to stop abortion as a practice only to see a PARTNERING by a Catholic group with an abortion group what message does that send to the "faithful"?

They certainly did not have an issue with playing the media before...why not now?

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Franco
06-14-2009, 09:37 PM
[quote=Keith Farmer;458232]The deeper issue for the "parishioners" is one of trust. If their foundational tenets are destroyed by their leaders for political/ecumenical gain then all is in vain is it not?

What foundational stone will be turned next Franco?



What foundation? I don't ever remember reading, "Tou Shall Not Have An Abortion". Last time I checked, Abortions are legal and NOT murder.

It wasn't until the 1970 that the Pope addresses Abortions and stated that the Roman Catholic Chruch is against it. That was his interpretation of what "he" thought it should be.

Abortions are the law of the land and that won't change. All relgions need to serve thier flock or they will become obsolete.

Hew
06-15-2009, 12:32 AM
It wasn't until the 1970 that the Pope addresses Abortions and stated that the Roman Catholic Chruch is against it. That was his interpretation of what "he" thought it should be.
You're mistaken. Try this: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm or this: http://www.catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

Keith Farmer
06-15-2009, 10:21 AM
Last time I checked, Abortions are legal and NOT murder.



Just because it is "legal" under civil law does not mean it is "legal" under God's moral law. In fact, your supporter in-house here echoed that same sentiment:



The fact that it's legal doesn't make it justified from a moral perspective... (Yardley)


As such, the church is bound to uphold God's moral law over civil law in every case if the two clash. What is happening here is that the church (the Roman church that is) is abandoning God and siding with civil authority over a moral issue...one that God is more than clear about!


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Nor_Cal_Angler
06-15-2009, 11:47 AM
Just because it is "legal" under civil law does not mean it is "legal" under God's moral law.

As such, the church is bound to uphold God's moral law over civil law in every case if the two clash. What is happening here is that the church (the Roman church that is) is abandoning God and siding with civil authority over a moral issue...one that God is more than clear about!


.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NCA

Franco
06-15-2009, 03:54 PM
You're mistaken. Try this: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm or this: http://www.catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

One link discusses abortion due to injury and the other in a modern day interpretation.

Just for the record, I don't place much "truth" in ancient writings. Especially with ancient man's limited knowledge of the reality of our exsistence.

Hew
06-15-2009, 04:06 PM
One link discusses abortion due to injury and the other in a modern day interpretation. Your computer must be linking to different articles than mine. ;)

Just for the record, I don't place much "truth" in ancient writings. Especially with ancient man's limited knowledge of the reality of our exsistence. You seemed to put stock in the ancient writings in your previous post when you justified your position by saying that abortion wasn't expressly banned in the Bible.

Regardless, the Catholic Church has been firmly against abortion since well before the 1970's.

___________

Keith Farmer
06-15-2009, 05:57 PM
Especially with ancient man's limited knowledge of the reality of our exsistence.

Franco, you seem to be hung up on mankind not knowing the "reality of our existence". That is the wholesale offering in the religion of Hinduism as well as most any other occultic religion in existence. Whether or not you admit it you are sold out for religion...just a religion from a different origin.

By the way, I think the ancient folks knew they existed...this ain't the matrix.


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zeus3925
06-15-2009, 06:35 PM
What it means is that Catholic institutions have no right to invite those with opposing views on articles of faith and morals to speak there.

What happened to free speech and academic freedom, Bob?

Notre Dame is not the whole Catholic Church, neither is the Holy Cross order that runs it