PDA

View Full Version : More good union work



badbullgator
06-23-2009, 09:50 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31494936/ns/us_news-education/?gt1=43001

To the tune of 65 million a year

Jacob Hawkes
06-23-2009, 10:03 AM
Eh, unions made Americana. Unions are a great thing. If it wasn't for them, we'd still be making next to nothing. The problem is you can have situations like that if people don't know how to negotiate contracts. Even the heavy union people will look to kick out members like that. Insubordinate ones I have no problem with, the other extreme they talked about I do. Kick them out the union.

Terry Britton
06-23-2009, 10:07 AM
That may be a result of poor school boards and parents than real problems with the school teachers. The majority of them will be back at their jobs soon as they are accused, or attempted to be fired over non-issues. I have seen teachers attempted to be fired by upset school board members over stupid stuff like owning circular (cell) phones, or making kids do homework in class.

There may be a small percentage of that 700 that really need to be locked up for life though for real crimes!

honker88
06-23-2009, 10:09 AM
As I have said on other posts. Unions have been a great thing for this country in the past. Unfortunately most have outlived their usefulness. Unions = mediocracy!

Bob Gutermuth
06-23-2009, 10:16 AM
In most instances all the teachers unions do is to keep the unqualified and underachieving working and getting paid.

badbullgator
06-23-2009, 10:22 AM
In most instances all the teachers unions do is to keep the unqualified and underachieving working and getting paid.


That is the case with most unions in general. If you are good at what you do and have half a brain you don't need people to negeociate for you and you should have no problem keeping your job
In general unions get people who cannot get something on their own, more money than they are worth and keeps the bad people from being fired.

Scott Greenwood
06-23-2009, 10:24 AM
In most instances all the teachers unions do is to keep the unqualified and underachieving working and getting paid.

Try doing anything about it. Probably one of the strongest unions in the nation. They aren't going anywhere.;)

honker88
06-23-2009, 10:37 AM
In most instances all the teachers unions do is to keep the unqualified and underachieving working and getting paid.

Unfortunately our kids test scores prove that when you compare them to the rest of the world.

badbullgator
06-23-2009, 10:48 AM
Our local teachers are crying right now because we are having such great revenue loss due to the home bust that cuts are having to be made. The union is fighting not only the cuts but is also insisting on raises across the board. BTW- for the first time in 40 years our school enrollment has actually dropped dramatically whereas it has increased substantially for the previous four decades. What a good idea, they want to cut jobs becasue there is no money so we are going to insist on a raise and that they don't cut jobs.

Jacob Hawkes
06-23-2009, 11:05 AM
That is the case with most unions in general. If you are good at what you do and have half a brain you don't need people to negeociate for you and you should have no problem keeping your job
In general unions get people who cannot get something on their own, more money than they are worth and keeps the bad people from being fired.

I don't know about you but I like more money in my account. Your general analogy was wayyyy off. I don't like working around some of the union hands, but I damn sure won't knock what they do for everybody.

Raymond Little
06-23-2009, 12:49 PM
I don't know about you but I like more money in my account. Your general analogy was wayyyy off. I don't like working around some of the union hands, but I damn sure won't knock what they do for everybody.
What do they do for everyone?? Please list the great things that the UAW,SEIU, NEA, ect. have done for Americans???
Graft, Corruption, Mediocrity, Class warfare, Socialism, did I leave any out?:rolleyes:
It never fails to amaze me when I drive by a construction site and see the dumbazzez holding up a sign about unfair labor practices. Yesterday they were out again, too stupid to take a job with a good wage on a non union job!! You are only worth what the man paying the wage thinks it is worth.

Jacob Hawkes
06-23-2009, 01:06 PM
Wrong. A man is worth his hire.

If you don't know what the union has done/still does then look it up. Educate yourself on the subject. I'm just a "Scab" but most of salaries are based off The Union Scale.

Steve Amrein
06-23-2009, 01:59 PM
I had to deal with some union BS and my foreman and a few of the longtimers asked what would happen if they went union. I told them that my ace guys would get a pay and benifit cut and the the guys that were in training would be replaced. Havent heard since.

badbullgator
06-23-2009, 02:05 PM
Wrong. A man is worth his hire.

If you don't know what the union has done/still does then look it up. Educate yourself on the subject. I'm just a "Scab" but most of salaries are based off The Union Scale.


Hardly. When I had my plastering and drywall business I would get the union guys from up north. Keep in mind this is back in the late 80'2 early 90's and they wanted $30/hr for a job that paid $15. The few that actually took the job were about as usless a tits on a trout becasue they wanted to do one job and only one job with the least amount of work they could get away with. The guys that actually made $30+/hr for me did piece work and EARNED great money. In the real world a man is worth whay he is worth and not what a union says his lazy ass is worth

Steve Amrein
06-23-2009, 02:09 PM
When I started my first company and had a few guys I called the local union hall and asked them if we could join and what the benefits would be. They explained to me all the great things they would do for the employees. I asked but what will you do for the company such as picket the non unoin shops, pressure local general contractors to insist on union projects, have a training program to improve quality of labor pool. Nothing , nada. what a great deal that would have been.

BTW the other day I stopped and was talking to some picketers that were walking against some area non union electricians. I asked where the signs and banners were from. Sadly NOT from any of the local union sign shops.:confused: Kinda reminds me of algore flying in a private jet to a global warming conference.

Jacob Hawkes
06-23-2009, 02:22 PM
Hardly. When I had my platering and drywall business I would get the union guys from up north. Keep in mind this is back in the late 80'2 early 90's and they wanted $30/hr for a job that paid $15. The few that actually took the job were about as usless a tits on a trout becasue they wanted to do one job and only one job with the least amount of work they could get away with. The guys that actually made $30+/hr for me did piece work and EARNED great money. In the real world a man is worth whay he is worth and not what a union says his lazy ass is worth

Jobs in oil refineries, power plants, and paper mills are. Shutdowns/new construction/maintenance are examples.

There is nothing more real world than shutdowns and that's where a man is worth his hire.

Terry Britton
06-23-2009, 03:06 PM
In most instances all the teachers unions do is to keep the unqualified and underachieving working and getting paid.

From watching my parent's careers as school teachers, it seems like for the most party the school boards and parents tend to try to drive off the qualified, achieving, hard working, and driven teachers away while wanting the keep the lazy ones that hand out A's for nothing. The good school districts have leaders that stand up for the best teachers, and actually try to run off the bad ones, but those school districts tend to be far and few between.

BonMallari
06-23-2009, 03:49 PM
Wrong. A man is worth his hire.

If you don't know what the union has done/still does then look it up. Educate yourself on the subject. I'm just a "Scab" but most of salaries are based off The Union Scale.


I dont think so..salaries are based on what the market will bear...I am a union member ,Culinary # 226, and the ONLY reason I am a member is because it was required when hired at the hotel..the hourly wage for waiters in Las Vegas is very different than waiters in NY or LA

The ONLY good thing the union has given me is an outstanding health insurance plan, but I did not like the fact that they tried to speak for me during the election and assumed that I was going to vote like the rest of the union sheeple with questionable I-9 status...the union was no where to be found when my full time status was dropped from full time status to part time after five yrs of service, but yet they still get their full union dues from my paycheck each month...the union DOESNT SPEAK FOR ME NOR DOES IT VOTE FOR ME.....I can do both on my own...unions are also notorious in the hotel industry of trying to dictate how a hotel does business and what they charge for services, and of course who pays.....you and me the consumer

Jacob Hawkes
06-23-2009, 04:03 PM
Rumor is the hotel unions are in bed with the mob. I know there are construction unions in bed with them in Northern Cali.

BonMallari
06-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Rumor is the hotel unions are in bed with the mob. I know there are construction unions in bed with them in Northern Cali.


ROTFLMAO.....there are no mobs in Las Vegas, just a lot of HUGE corporations..the closest thing we have to the Godfather is Kirk Krekorian who owns MGM/Mandalay Bay and was # 3 on the Forbes 400 list..the hotel I work at is owned by a division of Goldman Sachs....the mob went out with Casino and Joe Pesci :rolleyes:

Hoosier
06-23-2009, 05:25 PM
Hardly. When I had my plastering and drywall business I would get the union guys from up north. Keep in mind this is back in the late 80'2 early 90's and they wanted $30/hr for a job that paid $15. The few that actually took the job were about as usless a tits on a trout becasue they wanted to do one job and only one job with the least amount of work they could get away with. The guys that actually made $30+/hr for me did piece work and EARNED great money. In the real world a man is worth whay he is worth and not what a union says his lazy ass is worth

I have had similar experience with union help. We get a lot of laid off union carpenters calling for work in the winter, and to the man they can't keep up with the footage guys. The footage guys never want them on their crews, because working with them on a split cuts their pay significantly. Usually if you hire them by the hour, they cost way more then you can possibly bid the job for, and then complain about what they are getting paid. While footage guys on the same type jobs are making between $40 and $60 an hour.

Steve
07-03-2009, 11:35 AM
Eh, unions made Americana. Unions are a great thing. If it wasn't for them, we'd still be making next to nothing.

That's such a myth. The reason that people are making more is increased prodcutivity and demand for workers. The union movement is based on a Marxist view of society i.e. business owners are just out to exploit the masses. This country would be in better shape without unions.

dnf777
07-03-2009, 12:18 PM
That's such a myth. The reason that people are making more is increased prodcutivity and demand for workers. The union movement is based on a Marxist view of society i.e. business owners are just out to exploit the masses. This country would be in better shape without unions.

My 90 yo grandfather was a union coal miner in western Pennsylvania for 43 years. Tried to serve in WWII, but was told his job was war-effort critical and was turned down, and told to crawl back into the mines.

He was never rich, never drove a Cadillac, still won't drive anything japanese, but managed to put his three daughters through college with his savings and a little help from scholarships.

He and my grandmother have been able to remain in their tiny coal-town home, and not go bankrupt due to medical expenses because of his union retirement pension. And he still ain't driving Cadillacs, just dodges.

HE is what made this country strong. Any problems with that?

Mike Noel
07-03-2009, 02:04 PM
My 90 yo grandfather was a union coal miner in western Pennsylvania for 43 years. Tried to serve in WWII, but was told his job was war-effort critical and was turned down, and told to crawl back into the mines.

He was never rich, never drove a Cadillac, still won't drive anything japanese, but managed to put his three daughters through college with his savings and a little help from scholarships.

He and my grandmother have been able to remain in their tiny coal-town home, and not go bankrupt due to medical expenses because of his union retirement pension. And he still ain't driving Cadillacs, just dodges.

HE is what made this country strong. Any problems with that?

My Dad was a NON-union coal miner and my sisters and brother and myself paid our own way through college....and he has a Ford. Is he less of an American?

Cody Covey
07-03-2009, 02:11 PM
I always loved that argument. If it wasn't for the unions we wouldn't make neare anything. Guess what stuff wouldn't cost as much either. Unions make costs of labor higher which in turn makes cost of goods higher.

labman13
07-03-2009, 06:27 PM
As I have said on other posts. Unions have been a great thing for this country in the past. Unfortunately most have outlived their usefulness. Unions = mediocracy!


Dont forget who sets the pay scale around here

labman13
07-03-2009, 06:33 PM
I always loved that argument. If it wasn't for the unions we wouldn't make neare anything. Guess what stuff wouldn't cost as much either. Unions make costs of labor higher which in turn makes cost of goods higher.


Have you ever heard of quality?

dnf777
07-03-2009, 06:56 PM
My Dad was a NON-union coal miner and my sisters and brother and myself paid our own way through college....and he has a Ford. Is he less of an American?

Not at all. Does he have a pension and health benefits? Or don't hard working Americans deserve any of that Marxist crap once they stop contributing to the work force? (you know, a home to live in, health care, that kind of stuff that the Unions fought for)

Gerry Clinchy
07-03-2009, 10:15 PM
It is possible that unions were a needed instrument of evolution of the industrial age, much like other historical progressions toward a better understanding of how working with the labor force can benefit both management and workers. However, it can then be time to move toward the next step in the evolution. I believe that next step is for workers and management to realize that each is important to the ultimate goal of producing quality in their products (or services) for the benefit of the customers, the workers, and the shareholders. Some small businesses, and some pretty large ones, have done that even without the presence of unions.

We might look to Japan where companies attempt to give workers a sense of familial attachment to the company. Perhaps it was a lesson learned from the history of union activity, or perhaps it was also due in part to their culture.

We should always be ready learn from history. The good that the unions did, is something to learn from. The harm that came with power of unions and the abuses that took place are also something to learn from. I don't think management can ever again take their labor force for granted as they did before the age of unions.

Steve
07-04-2009, 12:49 AM
Unions drive up labor rates by restricting competition of workers. That should be considered anti-trust, but it is supported by the politicians in exchange for hefty contributions. If unions would team with management and focus on increasing worker productivity instead of trying to create make work jobs. Then workers could truly earn pensions and such instead of extorting them.

Martin
07-04-2009, 01:57 AM
Eh, unions made Americana. Unions are a great thing. If it wasn't for them, we'd still be making next to nothing. The problem is you can have situations like that if people don't know how to negotiate contracts. Even the heavy union people will look to kick out members like that. Insubordinate ones I have no problem with, the other extreme they talked about I do. Kick them out the union.

Unions did Not make America. Hard working people make America! And they, we, will be the ones that get America out of the mess we are in, not the freaking unions, government or anything else.

Regards,
Martin

Red retrievers
07-04-2009, 04:14 AM
What do they do for everyone?? Please list the great things that the UAW,SEIU, NEA, ect. have done for Americans???
Graft, Corruption, Mediocrity, Class warfare, Socialism, did I leave any out?:rolleyes:
It never fails to amaze me when I drive by a construction site and see the dumbazzez holding up a sign about unfair labor practices. Yesterday they were out again, too stupid to take a job with a good wage on a non union job!! You are only worth what the man paying the wage thinks it is worth.

There is one good thing that unions do keep the employees there that deserve to be there. Most nonunion companies have been cutting the 20 30 year employees because of the higher salaries they receive then replace them with young cheap employees. Now they are out at an advanced age looking for a new job in an already tight market. If they do find another job it probably will be at a lower pay scale.
But I do agree the UAW has destroyed the auto industry. In all the discussions when the auto industry is struggling the UAW does not want to give at all. It appears that they would rather take the industry down than give up anything they have. And most unions do protect the lazy Im here for the paycheck worker. Unions are a thing of the past but I dont see them going away there is too much money at stake.

dnf777
07-04-2009, 06:19 AM
"We might look to Japan where companies attempt to give workers a sense of familial attachment to the company. Perhaps it was a lesson learned from the history of union activity, or perhaps it was also due in part to their culture."

I agree with this and the rest of your comment. I think we used to be that way, when you had a sense of being a "company man". Like my father who worked for US Steel. Unfortunately, our family culture has had too many "Dads" like papa Madoff, Ken Lay, Frank Lorenzo....

Take a good situation and kill it with greed. And I realize both unions and mgt are guilty at that.

I think the crux of the problem is that we in America are trying to compete our labor force with those of countries that pay in rice-balls, NO benefits, NO safety concerns, Etc..... You can't compete with that, and maintain ANY sort of standard of living. You see how those workers in far away places live, unless we are willing to do the same, our labor costs will surpass them by orders of magnitude......unions or not. Someone mentioned having to pay a 15/hr worker 30/hr. In rural China, they work for 2/day. (or some low number, I pulled that number out as an example)

As for evolving, we got that covered in a different thread! ;-)

Gerry Clinchy
07-04-2009, 12:17 PM
I think the crux of the problem is that we in America are trying to compete our labor force with those of countries that pay in rice-balls, NO benefits, NO safety concerns, Etc..... You can't compete with that, and maintain ANY sort of standard of living. You see how those workers in far away places live, unless we are willing to do the same, our labor costs will surpass them by orders of magnitude......unions or not. Someone mentioned having to pay a 15/hr worker 30/hr. In rural China, they work for 2/day. (or some low number, I pulled that number out as an example)

We may underestimate the intelligence of the American consumer. Given the opportunity, they would prefer to "buy American".

Recent scandals of Chinese goods lack of quality in everything from Chinese-made toys to dog food components, has raised our consciousness about what this out-sourcing is costing us over the long haul.

It also makes sense to me that if U.S. corporations' costs are increased with taxes, they will seek ways to contain what costs they can control. Home-based corporations also face any number of restrictions, from environmental concerns to OSHA, that are not factors for the Chinese producers. There is no question that there is a great need for common sense in regulation without stifling productivity.

Cap and Trade is an obvious piece of regulation that lacks common sense.

Right now China is making a big push to use alternative energy sources like solar and wind. They have already max'ed out their water power! Their most important industrial fuel remains coal. Unlike the U.S., however, their estimated coal reserves are quite limited based on their present industrial growth rate.

They MUST find alternative fuels, and that is their motivation for going to wind and solar on large scale. But this change will be raising their production costs, too. These new fuels are considerably more costly than the coal that is their most prevalent fuel now. As such countries become more heavily industrialized, they begin to face the same issues that other developed countries face!

A few months ago I mentioned meeting a young Chinese immigrant, a computer wizard, who remarked that the Chinese government fears that its populatioin is becoming too devoted to capitalism.

Pat G
07-04-2009, 01:25 PM
Having been in unions for 30 yrs there are certainly arguments for both sides. Started working in tunnels @ 18yrs old. You work thru lunch and you have no breaks. You usually have time to eat on the fly. The shift boss never had to run a guy off that wasn't working out, the hands would do that and the union wouldn't say a thing because they knew the guy wasn't worth a crap. The work ethic in that field was unbelievable. All the crews were trying to get more footage than the other crews. To an extent that is still the case but, The work ethic of the people coming into the business for the last 10yrs. or so is one of entitlement. It all boils down to work ethic. Doesn't matter if your union or not. If your not worth a damn, you aren't worth a damn! I keep in mind that not only do I represent my union but first and foremost I represent the work ethic that has been instilled in me by my father. Other than union ironworkers who take serious pride in their work and are humped up, I can't defend other unions.
Pat

Steve Amrein
07-04-2009, 02:02 PM
St. Louis is a big union town prolly in the top 5 as far as strength and pay scale. I do believe that it has kept wage rates high artificially or not. We build signs wholesale for other sign companies. The argument that higher wages equals non competitive is only partially right. We have state of the art equipment, and skilled workers and build high quality sign. We also compete against folks that have the same equipment and skills and the kill our price.

I think that we should be more concerned about buying American made goods even if it cost more and bring companies and jobs back to the US. If goods are brought in to the US the should have a Tariff equal to the labor rate that we are competing against.

Mike Noel
07-04-2009, 03:39 PM
Not at all. Does he have a pension and health benefits? Or don't hard working Americans deserve any of that Marxist crap once they stop contributing to the work force? (you know, a home to live in, health care, that kind of stuff that the Unions fought for)

He got out from underground before he retired, was in mining equipment sales when that happened....no union and still has had a wonderful retirement, a lot of folks do it on their own all the time.

Martin
07-04-2009, 04:12 PM
Having been in unions for 30 yrs there are certainly arguments for both sides. Started working in tunnels @ 18yrs old. You work thru lunch and you have no breaks. You usually have time to eat on the fly. The shift boss never had to run a guy off that wasn't working out, the hands would do that and the union wouldn't say a thing because they knew the guy wasn't worth a crap. The work ethic in that field was unbelievable. All the crews were trying to get more footage than the other crews. To an extent that is still the case but, The work ethic of the people coming into the business for the last 10yrs. or so is one of entitlement. It all boils down to work ethic. Doesn't matter if your union or not. If your not worth a damn, you aren't worth a damn! I keep in mind that not only do I represent my union but first and foremost I represent the work ethic that has been instilled in me by my father. Other than union ironworkers who take serious pride in their work and are humped up, I can't defend other unions.
Pat

Very good post!

martin

YardleyLabs
07-04-2009, 05:02 PM
NPR actually did a special on the rubber room almost two years ago. Most of the teachers there have never had charges filed against them or been provided with any form of disciplinary review at all.

Long. long ago, I was the Director of Budget and Management for NYC's Health and Hospitals Corporation (then running 18 hospitals with 42,000 staff). I received very similar complaints from hospital executive directors who were complaining about a joint labor management executive review board (ERB) empowered to review appeals of disciplinary actions. They wanted the Board eliminated because it made it impossible to fire incompetent staff. When i looked into it I found that only a small number of caseswere ever appealed. I asked each of the directors to forward me examples of cases that had been reviewed in a manner that was inappropriate. I received half a dozen examples. I summarized the two "worst" below:

1. Medicaid Case Manager: One of this person's responsibilities was to provide subway tokens to Medicaid recipients to cover their transportation costs to the clinic. The person normally responsible for this function was out to lunch and this individual was filling in. A valid Medicaid recipient came to obtain a token following a psychiatric visit. The clerk verified eligibility and was handing the token to the patient when the psychiatrist came out of his office and yelled across the room that she should not give the patient a token because he was a fraud. He yelled that the patient had told him during his session that he drove a cab at night and did not report his income to Medicaid. Based on that the doctor did not want him to receive the token (then valued at $0.75). The doctor was a contractor employed by a medical affiliate and not an employee of the hospital. The clerk looked to her supervisor for guidance but her supervisor said nothing. The clerk handed the token to the patient. She was fired the following day for insubordination. In her disciplinary conference in the hospital, it was pointed out that legally the physician had violated state law by disclosing a patient confidence in a public area, that the physician was not the clerk's supervisor, and that denying the token would have contradicted written hospital and Medicaid policy. Despite that and despite several years of satisfactory service, the clerk was summarily dismissed. The ERB on appeal overturned the termination and instead imposed a 30 day suspension without pay.

2. Loading Dock Laborer: After 12 years of employment with good to outstanding reviews, this individual was terminated for theft. The man has been assigned to dispose of a number of items piled on the loading dock into the garbage dumpster. Included among the many items in a large pile was a crate of 48 eggs, some of which were broken. The man threw everything away but kept the eggs and took them home. A supervisor observed this and reported him for theft. While management agreed that the eggs had been disposed of by the hospital and would not have been reused under any circumstances, the termination was upheld by the Executive Director on review. In this case the ERB converted the penalty to a three month suspension without pay.

All the cases were similar. I met with the Executive Directors and told them that the ERB would remain in place until they developed their own procedures for preventing such stupid penalties from being imposed since in my opinion even the penalties imposed by the ERB had been too harsh.

In that same time frame I had a secretary who had been absent an average of one day/week in the six months she worked in my office. She had worked for the Corporation for five years with repeated promotions. As I investigated, it became clear that this pattern had been on-going. At no time had any supervisor ever questioned her behavior. Instead, she would be promoted and transferred.

We had a "progressive disciplinary procedure" that required that an employee first be informed of the specific problem in writing with a statement of what change was needed to avoid further discipline. I did this. She asked me if she could transfer and I said no. The second step was a conference involving the union shop steward. I forwarded the information to the shop steward and scheduled the conference. At the conference, the shop steward tore a new opening in the secretary's rear end. When the secretary said she wanted a transfer, the shop steward pointed out that her behavior made everyone's job harder and that she had better change immediately or lose her job. The following week she was absent again without excuse and I fired her. The whole process took four weeks from my first discussion with her until she was terminated. The sad part is that she had been trained to be a bad employee by bad managers. I would have preferred to fire each of them instead.

I will admit that in that period I blamed public sector and civil service rules for this situation. However, I had a friend who was the human resources director at Conde Nast. She said that they did not permit managers to terminate administrative employees because of their finding that almost every termination was the product of bad management more than bad employees. When a manager went through too many staff, they simply stopped sending replacements.