PDA

View Full Version : Cap and Trade Tax Vote Coming Up



Terry Britton
06-26-2009, 11:05 AM
This is is stupid and riddled with fraud (underestimating costs). I am against it. Better engineering and innovations that happen naturally do to economic profits is the way to go.

Bob Gutermuth
06-26-2009, 11:14 AM
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/26/epa-plays-hide-and-seek-suppressed-report-revealed/

Bend over, here comes the change!

K G
06-26-2009, 11:43 AM
Last I heard, there's no way this will pass in the Senate IF it gets out of the House intact....

kg

Goose
06-26-2009, 12:00 PM
The democrats are practicing fascism like we've never seen in this country.

We live in Cuba now.

YardleyLabs
06-26-2009, 12:11 PM
The democrats are practicing fascism like we've never seen in this country.

We live in Cuba now.
I understand that it is easier to call things names than it is to argue based on facts and reason, However, I fail to see any basis at all for your first sentence. Wikipedia defines fascism as follows:

"Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology.Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement. Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism, rationalism, liberalism, conservatism and communism. "

There are many definitions but this one is as good as any I have seen. What exactly is your basis for saying that the Democrats are practicing Fascism? What is your basis for saying "We live in Cuba now."? Hyperbole may sound nice but it is not a form of rational argument.

road kill
06-26-2009, 12:16 PM
I understand that it is easier to call things names than it is to argue based on facts and reason, However, I fail to see any basis at all for your first sentence. Wikipedia defines fascism as follows:

"Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology.Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement. Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism, rationalism, liberalism, conservatism and communism. "

There are many definitions but this one is as good as any I have seen. What exactly is your basis for saying that the Democrats are practicing Fascism? What is your basis for saying "We live in Cuba now."? Hyperbole may sound nice but it is not a form of rational argument.


Mr. Yardley, are you paying attention at all to what's happening?

By your posted definition, this is exactly where we are headed!

YardleyLabs
06-26-2009, 12:47 PM
Mr. Yardley, are you paying attention at all to what's happening?

By your posted definition, this is exactly where we are headed!
I think we've come close a few times in our history. Certainly the attacks by Senator Joe McCarthy and his ilk smacked of fascism, and Johnson and Nixon's efforts to suppress anti-war efforts smacked of fascism. Similarly, the Bush/Cheney efforts to extend Presidential power smacked of fascism. Happily, however, we as a country have always proven to be too unruly to accept the notion of an authoritarian government despite the efforts of those suffering delusions of imminent invasion and subversion to scare us in that direction.

Personally, I do not believe in according our government too much respect and deference no matter who is in charge. Having worked in government, I know how easy it is to fall in love with power and to begin thinking that your job is to save people from themselves. I am not afraid of those who state their legislative desires publicly and fight for them legislatively. I am afraid of those who withhold information for our own good and take actions secretly "on our behalf" because procedures for democratically based decision making are too cumbersome or might "weaken" us. In my mind, anyone doing that from a position of governmental power is moving us towards fascism.

By contrast, the proposals on cap and trade were a clear part of the campaign platform of the candidate and party that won support from a majority of voters in the last election. The bills introduced have been publicly developed and openly debated. They will pass in some form or fail to pass. That is democracy in action, not fascism.

road kill
06-26-2009, 01:00 PM
I think we've come close a few times in our history. Certainly the attacks by Senator Joe McCarthy and his ilk smacked of fascism, and Johnson and Nixon's efforts to suppress anti-war efforts smacked of fascism. Similarly, the Bush/Cheney efforts to extend Presidential power smacked of fascism. Happily, however, we as a country have always proven to be too unruly to accept the notion of an authoritarian government despite the efforts of those suffering delusions of imminent invasion and subversion to scare us in that direction.

Personally, I do not believe in according our government too much respect and deference no matter who is in charge. Having worked in government, I know how easy it is to fall in love with power and to begin thinking that your job is to save people from themselves. I am not afraid of those who state their legislative desires publicly and fight for them legislatively. I am afraid of those who withhold information for our own good and take actions secretly "on our behalf" because procedures for democratically based decision making are too cumbersome or might "weaken" us. In my mind, anyone doing that from a position of governmental power is moving us towards fascism.

By contrast, the proposals on cap and trade were a clear part of the campaign platform of the candidate and party that won support from a majority of voters in the last election. The bills introduced have been publicly developed and openly debated. They will pass in some form or fail to pass. That is democracy in action, not fascism.
Great answer.
I don't agree, but it is a very good answer.

code3retrievers
06-26-2009, 01:01 PM
I
"Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology.

Jeff,

You attempt to make a "rational" argument but rarely do.

Your quote from above sounds just like the Obama administration. The take over of the auto industry, the forced take over of the banking system. Threatening the banks to buy unwanted assets. The firing or the threat firing corporate CEOs. The take over of the health care system. Attempting to shift charity contributions away from private donations to a government system. Control of the energy sector through cap and trade. The list goes on and on.

On the other hand what was fascist about Bush. Lets see "deregulation" nope. Free trade, nope, maybe spying on our enemy.
Under your definition I don't see it but maybe in your infinite wisdom you can explain it to all of us simpletons.

Matt McKenzie
06-26-2009, 01:08 PM
Jeff,
I think that many who use the term "fascist" in regards to the current situation are referring to the fact that the fascist economic system involved government control of private industry. I do see some parallels. On the other side of the coin is the left's view that some on the right take and authoritarian stance on social issues. I agree to some degree with your example of McCarthy, but not as much with the Nixon example and certainly not with the Bush/Cheney example.
I find it interesting that many who were so concerned about the Bush Administration's "expansion of the power of the Executive Branch" when it came to national security are strangely silent on the vast expansion of the powers of the Executive Branch that are happening now.
Using terms like "fascist", "socialist", etc. are rarely constructive, but sometimes they are the only words we have.
I am certainly no Bush apologist and find it pointless to get into discussions about what happened during the Bush years, the Clinton years or any other time in our history unless it provides a lesson with how to deal with events today. It's too easy for those in power (right or left) to use the acts of the previous administrations as an excuse for poor government today. Too often it breaks down into childish arguments that are no more constructive than, "he hit me first", "my dad can beat up your dad" and "liar, liar pants on fire". That works in elementary school, but if we as individuals (regardless of where we fall on the political spectrum) don't stop arguing and start thinking, we are going to be in one heck of a mess.

Hew
06-26-2009, 01:11 PM
You know that Pelosi, Waxman and the other gangstas who want to ram this thing through the House have to be clapping their little cloven hooves in glee that there's been a myriad of juicy news stories that have taken Cap and Tax...errr Trade off the front page...Sanford's MIA/affair, Farrah, and now Michael Jackson. They'll pass it late on a Friday for the standard end-of-the-newsweek crap dump, hoping that it doesn't get much press over the weekend, and then unload it on to the Senate's lap. As KG said, it is supposedly and thankfully DOA once it hits the Senate.

YardleyLabs
06-26-2009, 01:32 PM
Jeff,

You attempt to make a "rational" argument but rarely do.

Your quote from above sounds just like the Obama administration. The take over of the auto industry, the forced take over of the banking system. Threatening the banks to buy unwanted assets. The firing or the threat firing corporate CEOs. The take over of the health care system. Attempting to shift charity contributions away from private donations to a government system. Control of the energy sector through cap and trade. The list goes on and on.

On the other hand what was fascist about Bush. Lets see "deregulation" nope. Free trade, nope, maybe spying on our enemy.
Under your definition I don't see it but maybe in your infinite wisdom you can explain it to all of us simpletons.
Forced take over of the banking system: If you mean the TARP program, you may want to check which administration issued the the first $750 billion in funds. If you mean attaching conditions to continued support, I'm glad they started doing that as opposed to simply throwing money into the pot.

Threatening banks to buy unwanted assets: Any specific examples?

Firing corporate CEO's: I'm not sure what ones you are talking about. AIG's CEO was forced out of by the Fed before the 2008 election. Management changes and bank closures have been required by the Comptroller of the Currency ever since the first banking acts were passed during the depression. The Reagan and first Bush administrations actually saw a Federally managed liquidation of almost the entire savings and loan industry during the 1980's following a bankruptcy of many banks as a direct result of idiotic and highly risky investment strategies implemented in response to Reagan inspired deregulation. The only unusual thing done in this instance was the adoption of compensation controls by Congress. Those were actually initially opposed by Obama who only began giving them luke warm support in response to overwhelming public demands following the AIG bonuses handed out at public expense.

Take over of health care: It certainly hasn't happened yet and it is not part of any of the bills being considered. Please provide references to any legislation or statement suggesting that the government is seeking to take over health care.

Attempting to shift charitable donations to government control: Any examples? I'm sure you are not simply discussing tax deductibility for charitable contributions since those rules have changed repeatedly over time with some of the biggest reductions in tax preferences occurring as part of the Reagan tax reform package (Was he a fascist?).

Cap and Trade: One of the fundamental "flaws" in the "free market" is that not all costs or benefits are accounted for in economic transactions. For example, if you buy a house across the street from a beautiful park, the value that you pay for your house is greater because of the presence of the park. If a developer buys the park from you town and builds a giant big box mall, the value of your house will tank. Should you be compensated for that loss? If you build a plant next to my house and begin spewing massive amounts of pollution into the air, making muy house uninhabitable, should you be required to pay damages? It is appropriate in any economy for regulations to be used to try to incorporate some of these "externalities" (the economic term for thee effects) into the transaction. The best way to do that without otherwise affecting the free market is by placing a price on those effects that must be paid by the party making the economic decisions. Cap and trade is fundamentally a way to do that. It begins from scientific findings that carbon emissions are injuring all of us. It provides a market driven vehicle for pricing those emissions in a manner that will give producers of emissions economic incentives for modifying their practices. From an economic perspective, this is much better than simply imposing regulations that limit emissions since it allows the free market the ability to determine the value of continuing to emit carbon pollutants. Will it have an economic impact? Absolutely. But then, the emissions also have a direct economic impact that is not being paid by the polluters. My asthma medications cost several thousand per year and are largely attributable to industrial pollution. The death of trees in the Smokies is directly affected by carbon releases from coal driven utilities in Ohio. The cancer rate in Allentown PA, near where I live, is several times higher than the rest of the country because of carbon emissions. Why shouldn't polluters have greater financial responsibility for the damages caused? This is certainly a valid question for debate. Condemning action as fascism is, as I said earlier, simply a way to use name calling as a substitute for reason.

dnf777
06-26-2009, 01:35 PM
I think we've come close a few times in our history. Certainly the attacks by Senator Joe McCarthy and his ilk smacked of fascism, and Johnson and Nixon's efforts to suppress anti-war efforts smacked of fascism. Similarly, the Bush/Cheney efforts to extend Presidential power smacked of fascism. Happily, however, we as a country have always proven to be too unruly to accept the notion of an authoritarian government despite the efforts of those suffering delusions of imminent invasion and subversion to scare us in that direction.

Personally, I do not believe in according our government too much respect and deference no matter who is in charge. Having worked in government, I know how easy it is to fall in love with power and to begin thinking that your job is to save people from themselves. I am not afraid of those who state their legislative desires publicly and fight for them legislatively. I am afraid of those who withhold information for our own good and take actions secretly "on our behalf" because procedures for democratically based decision making are too cumbersome or might "weaken" us. In my mind, anyone doing that from a position of governmental power is moving us towards fascism.

By contrast, the proposals on cap and trade were a clear part of the campaign platform of the candidate and party that won support from a majority of voters in the last election. The bills introduced have been publicly developed and openly debated. They will pass in some form or fail to pass. That is democracy in action, not fascism.

Imagine for one second that our VP, Joe Biden, formed this energy policy behind locked doors with the shades pulled down, with leading corporate CEOs and representatives, then refused to release transcripts even under court order (or congressional oversight order), then those same corporations posted all-time record profits in the history of man-kind. If that's too much to imagine, just change the name to Vice Pres. Cheney, and you don't have to imagine. It just happened!

I don't like this new bill either, but it was formulated and discussed in the public forum. I suggest all of us who disagree with it, rather than write on this forum, write your congressman, and it won't become law.

Now, I have a sixer icing down waiting for my return....

Bob Gutermuth
06-26-2009, 02:01 PM
A lot of good it will do to write my Congresscritter or senators, they are all treehugging liberal democrats.

dnf777
06-26-2009, 02:51 PM
A lot of good it will do to write my Congresscritter or senators, they are all treehugging liberal democrats.

Bob,
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that's the exact attitude that the people you despise are counting on! Then they get their way.

This bill does NOT have rubber-stamp approval from Dems. It is very contentious right now, and maybe your ONE letter won't sway things, but a few hundred to your treehuggers probably will.

Have a good one,
Dave

Bob Gutermuth
06-26-2009, 03:02 PM
Two of the three(both US Senators ) toe the party line on 99% of the issues. Trying to change their mind is a waste of breath and or paper.

Terry Britton
06-26-2009, 04:33 PM
With the work of James Watts and his volunteers we've learned that the majority of stations in the USHCN are poorly sited and are providing poor information. To this point his group has surveyed roughly 70% of the weather station network and 78% of those stations provide temperature readings that are off by more than 2 degrees F.

http://www.surfacestations.org/

WindyCreek
06-26-2009, 08:23 PM
Unfortunately it passed. The impact if it passes the Senate will be permanent damage to the economic system of the country and a blow to State and individual rights. A 1200 page bill with a 300 page amendment that was delivered to Congress at 3:00 A.M. today 14 hours before the vote, now that is "transparency" and a "new era of government" to quote the current President and Speaker of the House!

Franco
06-26-2009, 08:42 PM
Just another huge bill they want to get passed before anyone has a chance to read and debate.

All the while the news media will fiddle.

Terry Britton
06-27-2009, 12:55 AM
Just another huge bill they want to get passed before anyone has a chance to read and debate.

All the while the news media will fiddle.

I am gettng a lot better news feeds from a financial guru I am following from Austria than anything that is here domestically including FOX.

Bruce MacPherson
06-27-2009, 02:04 AM
When it comes to the unconstitutional expansion of Presidential authority,growth of government and really bad economic policy Obama makes Bush look like a light weight. The guy is scary.

Bob Gutermuth
06-28-2009, 10:21 AM
8 GOP members of the House voted for this boondoggle, they need to be run out of office for treason against their party.

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/26/the-8-cap-and-tax-republicans/

K G
06-30-2009, 10:20 AM
Imagine for one second that our VP, Joe Biden, formed this energy policy behind locked doors with the shades pulled down, with leading corporate CEOs and representatives, then refused to release transcripts even under court order (or congressional oversight order), then those same corporations posted all-time record profits in the history of man-kind. If that's too much to imagine, just change the name to Vice Pres. Cheney, and you don't have to imagine. It just happened!

I don't like this new bill either, but it was formulated and discussed in the public forum. I suggest all of us who disagree with it, rather than write on this forum, write your congressman, and it won't become law.


Bob,
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that's the exact attitude that the people you despise are counting on! Then they get their way.

This bill does NOT have rubber-stamp approval from Dems. It is very contentious right now, and maybe your ONE letter won't sway things, but a few hundred to your treehuggers probably will.


Unfortunately it passed. The impact if it passes the Senate will be permanent damage to the economic system of the country and a blow to State and individual rights. A 1200 page bill with a 300 page amendment that was delivered to Congress at 3:00 A.M. today 14 hours before the vote, now that is "transparency" and a "new era of government" to quote the current President and Speaker of the House!


When it comes to the unconstitutional expansion of Presidential authority,growth of government and really bad economic policy Obama makes Bush look like a light weight. The guy is scary.

Folks, if you were EVER going to send an email or make a phone call to your US Senator, NOW is the time to do it. If this passes, our economy will be PERMANENTLY screwed beyond words....even a mid-term change to a Republican majority will do little to lessen its impact unless they could engineer a repeal....

MAKE YOUR VOICE COUNT! CONTACT YOUR US SENATOR TODAY!

kg

Bob Gutermuth
06-30-2009, 10:35 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/29/gop-senator-calls-inquiry-supressed-climate-change-report/

and about job losses:http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/29/cap-and-tax-job-loss-chart-of-the-day-plus-a-senate-reading-assignment/

Hoosier
06-30-2009, 12:23 PM
Here is the Messiah admitting energy rates will skyrocket under cap and trade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4&feature=player_embedded

Bob Gutermuth
06-30-2009, 01:07 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-6428-Baltimore-Legal-News-Examiner~y2009m6d30-Cap--Trade-Plus-8-Eight-reasons-you-should-fear-capandtrade

Bret Rasmussen
06-30-2009, 01:50 PM
I work at a coal mine in Wyoming and if this bill goes through I see the coal companys reducing the amount of coal shipped by so much that there will not be enough to power the United States. We have already reduced our planned shipped tons by close to 20%. I really think clean coal technology is where the goverment should stick a large amount of money and when they find a way to make it cleaner and keep cost down for the consumer, then start looking at alternative energy sources. If this passes through the Senate this will bring a depresion that has never been seen in our country!

Terry Britton
06-30-2009, 03:38 PM
I work at a coal mine in Wyoming and if this bill goes through I see the coal companys reducing the amount of coal shipped by so much that there will not be enough to power the United States. We have already reduced our planned shipped tons by close to 20%. I really think clean coal technology is where the goverment should stick a large amount of money and when they find a way to make it cleaner and keep cost down for the consumer, then start looking at alternative energy sources. If this passes through the Senate this will bring a depresion that has never been seen in our country!

Bret, Did you see where the U of Texas turned coal into crude with a new process (probably turkey cooker method)? They are saying it could bring oil down to $35 per barrel. It was posted on www.pickensplan.com the other day.

Uncle Bill
06-30-2009, 04:11 PM
Bret, Did you see where the U of Texas turned coal into crude with a new process (probably turkey cooker method)? They are saying it could bring oil down to $35 per barrel. It was posted on www.pickensplan.com (http://www.pickensplan.com) the other day.

Rapid City had a coal gasification plant in the 70's that proved it was quite doable. It was shut down and we lost most of those that were employed in that project, primarily because it wasn't financially feasible at that time.

My wife and I had developed some close friendships with those folks, and we were sorry to see it shut down.

With that technology on the back burner, however, it wouldn't take long for it to be revived quickly. It just won't happen with the current crop of environmental crazies we have running the nation today.

The sad truth is, in today's environment and with today's technologies, we can make all drilling, mining, cutting, and self sufficiency easily realistic, if we didn't have the socialists constantly screaming all their negativisms.

It's just criminal how easily the libs can convince the sheeple that we conservatives encourage dirty water, and dirty air. If this current Algore bill that just passed the Congress gets through the Senate, and the costs start hitting them in THEIR pocketbooks, it might start sinking in they've been hoodwinked. I don't really believe that, but hellsbells, a guy can dream...for the sake of his children.

UB

txbadger
07-01-2009, 08:48 AM
Just wait til GE/GS start trading the credits, it'll be more of a mess than the housing mess.

Terry Britton
07-01-2009, 09:55 AM
Rapid City had a coal gasification plant in the 70's that proved it was quite doable. It was shut down and we lost most of those that were employed in that project, primarily because it wasn't financially feasible at that time.

My wife and I had developed some close friendships with those folks, and we were sorry to see it shut down.

With that technology on the back burner, however, it wouldn't take long for it to be revived quickly. It just won't happen with the current crop of environmental crazies we have running the nation today.

The sad truth is, in today's environment and with today's technologies, we can make all drilling, mining, cutting, and self sufficiency easily realistic, if we didn't have the socialists constantly screaming all their negativisms.

It's just criminal how easily the libs can convince the sheeple that we conservatives encourage dirty water, and dirty air. If this current Algore bill that just passed the Congress gets through the Senate, and the costs start hitting them in THEIR pocketbooks, it might start sinking in they've been hoodwinked. I don't really believe that, but hellsbells, a guy can dream...for the sake of his children.

UB

I saw ethanol plants in Western OK pop up and colapse in that same time. Opec opened the tap when they saw the competition coming online. I just listened to Trump a few days ago, and he said there was plenty of oil, and the USA citizens are dumb not to break up OPEC. I think he is right, the OPEC price fixing should be broken up by force.

K G
07-03-2009, 12:11 PM
http://www.nma.org/pdf/061909_2454_map.pdf

The numbers are in....talk about RED states!!!

Call your Senators....you've got a voice...USE IT!!!

kg

Hoosier
07-11-2009, 12:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fqCS7Y_kME

Gerry Clinchy
07-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Has something else happened after this?

Pressure’s on: Senate Dems put cap-and-tax on ice

By Michelle Malkin • July 9, 2009 01:16 PM
Evidence that the global warming zealots are feeling the heat: The Senate Democrats have decided to delay action on cap-and-tax until after the August recess.

Martin
07-11-2009, 08:58 PM
Folks, if you were EVER going to send an email or make a phone call to your US Senator, NOW is the time to do it. If this passes, our economy will be PERMANENTLY screwed beyond words....even a mid-term change to a Republican majority will do little to lessen its impact unless they could engineer a repeal....

MAKE YOUR VOICE COUNT! CONTACT YOUR US SENATOR TODAY!

kg

DANG right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!