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Steve
07-01-2009, 10:38 PM
A friend of mine admitted to voting for BHO. He said the 8 years of Bush drove him out of the Republican Party. Bush was a failure because he acted as a leftist. Voting for someone more leftist is insane. Why not vote 3rd party, write in someone, or stay home. I just don't understand it.

M Remington
07-01-2009, 11:54 PM
I did the same thing, Steve (and I know a lot of others who did, too). Let me give you the reasons:

1. I was very pleased with W's initial response to 9/11. Then, going into a full-fledged war in Iraq caused me some heartburn. We took our eye off of the ball in Afghanistan and we're payign the price for it. Then, W was unable to come up with a justification of the war (he tried several times until he found one that would stick).

2. I was very pleased with the fiscal position that Clinton left us in. Then, when W got into office, he squandered the surplus (I was used to paying taxes at a certain level, so I really didn't care that my taxes slightly decreased). I am fiscally conservative so I was upset that W kept spending and cutting taxes. The two do not work together, hence a huge deficit and national debt.

3. W let the religious right hijack our country. I am a Christian and I go to church, but my religion is a private thing--I don't think it should be worn on my sleeve AND I am not going to criticize people who do not share my views.

4. W was the king of secretive government. He claimed executive privilege at every turn (remember the energy policy of VP Cheney and the people involved).

I have ALWAYS voted for Republicans (and I will continue to call myself a Republican--I cannot bring myself to be called a Democrat). I was so disappointed with Bush and the rightward movement of the Republican party that I voted for Obama to primarily send a message. Why did I not vote for a third-party candidate. . . it would have been a wasted vote. Why not stay home. . .McCain might have won and the Republicans would not have gotten the message. My goal, and I would suggest the goal of many, many Americans was to send a message.

Obviously your friend and I are not the only ones who "jumped ship." Obama's victory was less an endorsement of Obama than it was an indictment of Bush and the direction of the Republican party. When the Republicans are willing to represent people who are not to the far right, many of us will return. Until then, we'll keep hammering them with losses until they get the message (it appears that the message is starting to be heard).

road kill
07-02-2009, 07:18 AM
I did the same thing, Steve (and I know a lot of others who did, too). Let me give you the reasons:

1. I was very pleased with W's initial response to 9/11. Then, going into a full-fledged war in Iraq caused me some heartburn. We took our eye off of the ball in Afghanistan and we're payign the price for it. Then, W was unable to come up with a justification of the war (he tried several times until he found one that would stick).

2. I was very pleased with the fiscal position that Clinton left us in. Then, when W got into office, he squandered the surplus (I was used to paying taxes at a certain level, so I really didn't care that my taxes slightly decreased). I am fiscally conservative so I was upset that W kept spending and cutting taxes. The two do not work together, hence a huge deficit and national debt.

3. W let the religious right hijack our country. I am a Christian and I go to church, but my religion is a private thing--I don't think it should be worn on my sleeve AND I am not going to criticize people who do not share my views.

4. W was the king of secretive government. He claimed executive privilege at every turn (remember the energy policy of VP Cheney and the people involved).

I have ALWAYS voted for Republicans (and I will continue to call myself a Republican--I cannot bring myself to be called a Democrat). I was so disappointed with Bush and the rightward movement of the Republican party that I voted for Obama to primarily send a message. Why did I not vote for a third-party candidate. . . it would have been a wasted vote. Why not stay home. . .McCain might have won and the Republicans would not have gotten the message. My goal, and I would suggest the goal of many, many Americans was to send a message.

Obviously your friend and I are not the only ones who "jumped ship." Obama's victory was less an endorsement of Obama than it was an indictment of Bush and the direction of the Republican party. When the Republicans are willing to represent people who are not to the far right, many of us will return. Until then, we'll keep hammering them with losses until they get the message (it appears that the message is starting to be heard).

Well, you are certainly teaching us a lesson!!

How's it working for you??

Bob Gutermuth
07-02-2009, 09:00 AM
I was disappointed that the GOP didn't move more to the right under W, the party is a bit too liberal.

luvalab
07-02-2009, 09:15 AM
From an e-mail from a friend, in response to my laments about current situation:

"I think our last election was proof to anyone sane that there are no
differences between our two parties. You (and I) chose the candidate who
hinted that he might stop our wars, instead of the one that promised he
would not."

Remington also addresses several points.

Believe me, I want government OUT of peoples' lives--and saw no future for that in the Republican party, only lies followed by policies that proved them liars. Some of use took the risk of choosing a new liar (and we're none too pleased).

Also--While Ted Rall is far and away further left than I am on several issues and he doesn't speak for me (and I disagree mightily on anything "Cap and Trade" so let's not pick that one and go there), his June 30 summary of why he "misses" George Bush adequately sums up several of the reasons many of "us" (myself and friends who voted Democrat) could not stomach McCain--who on all policies but torture, pretty much vowed to continue doing whatever Bush had been doing--and the anger many of us are feeling at Obama for not only failing to follow through on promises to be different, but for actively continuing (snowballing) the policies that drove us AWAY from considering a Republican follow-up to Bush. http://www.rall.com/rants.html

Roger Perry
07-02-2009, 09:31 AM
I did the same thing, Steve (and I know a lot of others who did, too). Let me give you the reasons:

1. I was very pleased with W's initial response to 9/11. Then, going into a full-fledged war in Iraq caused me some heartburn. We took our eye off of the ball in Afghanistan and we're payign the price for it. Then, W was unable to come up with a justification of the war (he tried several times until he found one that would stick).

2. I was very pleased with the fiscal position that Clinton left us in. Then, when W got into office, he squandered the surplus (I was used to paying taxes at a certain level, so I really didn't care that my taxes slightly decreased). I am fiscally conservative so I was upset that W kept spending and cutting taxes. The two do not work together, hence a huge deficit and national debt.

3. W let the religious right hijack our country. I am a Christian and I go to church, but my religion is a private thing--I don't think it should be worn on my sleeve AND I am not going to criticize people who do not share my views.

4. W was the king of secretive government. He claimed executive privilege at every turn (remember the energy policy of VP Cheney and the people involved).

I have ALWAYS voted for Republicans (and I will continue to call myself a Republican--I cannot bring myself to be called a Democrat). I was so disappointed with Bush and the rightward movement of the Republican party that I voted for Obama to primarily send a message. Why did I not vote for a third-party candidate. . . it would have been a wasted vote. Why not stay home. . .McCain might have won and the Republicans would not have gotten the message. My goal, and I would suggest the goal of many, many Americans was to send a message.

Obviously your friend and I are not the only ones who "jumped ship." Obama's victory was less an endorsement of Obama than it was an indictment of Bush and the direction of the Republican party. When the Republicans are willing to represent people who are not to the far right, many of us will return. Until then, we'll keep hammering them with losses until they get the message (it appears that the message is starting to be heard).

It took more than just democrats voting for Obama to get him elected.

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/campaign_lies.html

BonMallari
07-02-2009, 09:37 AM
Neither Republicans or Democrats want to see the emergence of a third party here in the US, in order for a third party to succeed it needs some much needed infrastructure ($$$$) to be a viable alternative. they will do everything in their powers to see that never happens, because a third party would actually force them to get things done...In a two party system the parties can portray the opposition as the evil ones and vice versa

As to the claim that W let the Republican party get hijacked by the Christian right, the opposite is actually the truth, the evidence rests in who they nominated, the Republicans nominated a MODERATE, some say almost liberal in McCain, and because of that we are all paying the price, they flat out got snookered thinking they had to move to the center to win an election. The Republicans need to hold closed primaries in all the states to eliminate having the weakest candidate selected..Look back at the timeline and the numbers, McCain was down and running out of money before he went to states with open primaries and he emerges as the front runner and winner. I voted for McCain but he ran an inept campaign, I wont make that mistake again...

Terry Britton
07-02-2009, 09:48 AM
The existing government officials may try to use the new hate crime laws against anyone organising a new viable third party.

Steve Amrein
07-02-2009, 09:57 AM
I guess I can understand some of the folks who voted against McCain to show they are sick of the left leaning W style politics. I was and still very displeased how W turned out. I was even more disappointed with McCain's nomination. I actually thought that he was a D with the voter record and bills he sponsored. I also believe that a 3rd party vote is currently a waste of a vote. Symbolic it may be, but unless it gets really bad I don't see it successful.

My problem with the protest vote is that BHO and the left will have so much of the ubber left agenda in place that it will be near impossible to rollback. Even a freeze on additional spending is considered a tax cut. They have made tax cut a dirty word.

Just as during the election with economic woes tends to vote someone new in I am not convinced that a conservative will be able to make a go of it. They will have to make the argument to cut back on spending and policies that BHO and the MSM will have been campaigning for 6 years. I was flipping between fox and cnn and it seems like the honeymoon is wearing off. I guess at some point a small bit of journalistic integrity will rise.

Julie R.
07-02-2009, 10:18 AM
It took more than just democrats voting for Obama to get him elected.



Yep, it took ACORN and their massive infusions of goobermint cash. Just wait til they get done with the census, we ain't seen nothing yet.

badbullgator
07-02-2009, 10:25 AM
I thnk a "no party" system is a better idea. Let them rn on their own with no party help and you vote for who you like best. I don't like something republican and don;t like most things democrat, but a thrid "party" will not work....too many people drik the kool aid on both sides

kimsmith
07-02-2009, 10:34 AM
I agree with Bad, why do we need to labeled Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Moderate or Liberal. Vote for the person you like and for the person who will do the best job for our country.

K G
07-02-2009, 11:13 AM
Kim, that plan hasn't worked too well either, at least not with the last two "winners" we've chosen.

I do find it interesting, though, that rather than honestly and openly examine where our current President is making mistakes, the lefties here keep throwing out the "but look what Bush 43 did" diversion. If they can't find anything positive to say about 44 now, what will they be saying in 3 1/2 years?

It may be easier to de-elect him than we originally thought. We can start in 18 months.....assuming our economy and way-of-life can remain intact for that long....:rolleyes:

kg

Cody Covey
07-02-2009, 11:26 AM
wait remington you were so mad at W for spending and all those other left leaning policies that you were like hey guys watch what happens when someone REALLY wants to spend money?

Thanks for voting to spend and tax us into the ground.

TexGold
07-02-2009, 01:04 PM
While, I chose to "sit this one out," and did not cast a vote for president, I think Remington's post was well thought out.

I had been very active in the Republican party for many years. The Republican party generally stood for state's rights, less government, private rights of individuals and being fiscally conservative. What do we have now?

The debt inherited from the Bush years is tremendous. We have lost local control of our schools through the idiotic "No Child Left Behind" Act. Further, now the test of being a Republican is whether you are the "right kind of Christian," and that you are against abortion, same-sex marriage and stem cell research! Except for stem cell research, these issues, abortion, marriage and education are rights and powers left to the state! And what could be more invasive to person's private rights than his religion or sexual preference? I am not weighing in pro or con for any of them, I am just saying that these are matters for individual states to decide, not the federal government.

The other ironic thing is that the fed controls the state by threatening withholding federal funds which create more debt! Federal funding has become the heroin addiction of state government!

Ronald Reagan was a democrat for many years. He was asked why he left the democratic party. His response, "I didn't leave the Democratic party. The Democratic party left me." I feel the same way about the Republican party, but I still don't agree with the Democrats either. I guess I will find my way as a powerless Libertarian.

D.

kimsmith
07-02-2009, 01:50 PM
I can't understand why some are turning on the Republican Party just because of the last election. Didn't the same thing happen when the democrats got voted out. Elections go in cycles, if the economy is good and everybody feels good about whats going on in their life then they will vote for the party in office. If everything is going down hill then they will vote for change. We also can't blame everything on the Republican party when the economy went south because a lot of that was set up years before the Republican party took office.

Cody Covey
07-02-2009, 01:56 PM
all of those things are being left to the state. Abortion was voted on and failed miserably. Same sex marriage was voted on in california and they ammended the constitution of the state that it wasn't legal. Thats of course, after the supreme court decided it could try and make laws from the bench. Stem cell research like you said was decided by the feds in the stroke of a pen.

dnf777
07-02-2009, 02:31 PM
I agree with Bad, why do we need to labeled Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Moderate or Liberal. Vote for the person you like and for the person who will do the best job for our country.

That's why I traded in my voter reg. card for one that says "Independent".

Steve
07-02-2009, 05:49 PM
I held my nose and voted for Palin and the old guy. I also voted for a Republican congressman who voted against the original stimulus package. Otherwise I voted Libertarian wherever there was an opportunity.

The only way I see the Republicans getting the message is to vote 3rd party. By voting BHO you are telling them they should move more to the left.

Bush's biggest failure was that he argued everything from the leftist standpoint. He never seemed to stand up for conservative principles.

Cody Covey
07-02-2009, 06:04 PM
a lot of us weren't voting for mccain but against obama. We could see that voting independent wasn't worth the ink on the paper and that Obama would spend and throw away liberties at an alarming rate.

Don't blame me i voted for Mccain regards~

BonMallari
07-02-2009, 06:19 PM
I also voted and campaigned for a Senator that admitted having an affair : Ensign, R (NV) was very disappointed in him, dont know if I could vote for him again, and he is a veterinarian to boot

the other reason I voted McCain/ Palin is that I refused to be told by my work union (Culinary # 226) who to support and vote for, they were so two faced, they originally backed Clinton in the primary but switched their allegiance when BHO took the lead in the polls

TexGold
07-02-2009, 06:38 PM
all of those things are being left to the state. Abortion was voted on and failed miserably. Same sex marriage was voted on in california and they ammended the constitution of the state that it wasn't legal. Thats of course, after the supreme court decided it could try and make laws from the bench. Stem cell research like you said was decided by the feds in the stroke of a pen.

For now they are with the state, but that is not the Republican agenda-- you have heard the calls for amendments to the U.S. Constitution.

The federal government has trampled over the educational system. No Child Left Behind controls virtually everything in schools now, with the feds saying, "You don't have to do this, but if you don't we will take away your federal funds." NCLB was almost all Bush-- remember he was going to be the "Education President." All that wasted money and bureaucracy from a law that was unworkable and stupidly flawed from the git-go.

I haven't turned on the party because of the economy, it is the change in emphasis and priority that bothers me. Hopefully, a break will appear and it will make sense to become involved again and perhaps bring the original values back to the party.

luvalab
07-02-2009, 06:51 PM
A few more random points:

It seems to me that the Republican party is extraordinarily divided on what "right" (in every sense of the word) means. Socially? Fiscally? States rights? "Traditional" values? Religious viewpoints? The right of 25 years ago? 40? 100? 150 years ago? Conservative how? Constitutional conservative? Cultural conservative? You all are a freakin' mess when it comes to defining yourselves. How does one vote for that mess???

Obama had the distinct advantage of just saying, "They're wrong," which was the only thing that made any sense, no matter how horridly simplistic (and in-credible) it was.

The betrayal of MY vote is that Obama now seems to be saying, "Well, now that I'm here, I'll build on what the other guys were doing anyway" (and nobody's really taking him to task on this, which is a travesty).

Examples: Bailouts? Bail out more. Bolster failing business? Bolster more. Blur the line between business and government? (Arguably, "right" as in fascist, could be argued "left" as well, I understand) Blur more. Business decisions interfering with health care? Just you watch--health insurers will make megabucks with Obama's final compromise plan with them (wish I had money to invest), and there will be a lot of Republican congressmen voting for it or abstaining or cynically voting against it with their fingers crossed behind their backs, praying it will pass. Stretched thin in ill-defined wars? Stretch more, seek to obfuscate the rationales more. Possible torture? Illegal imprisonment? Move the venues, rail against the questionable practices all the while continuing them, hide the old evidence and deny the new. Manipulating and co-opting the media? Manipulate more, co-opt more.

The Republican administration was wrong--I couldn't affirm them, no way and no how--and now, unfortunately, a Democratic administration is MORE wrong.

I did my best, as I hope everyone else who voted did. 2012 will come, and I'll do my best again. Blame me if you want, but I just couldn't vote Republican. Unless something extraordinary happens, I won't be able to vote Democrat either. Then what??? I'll never NOT vote, and I vowed some time ago never to throw away another vote.

I hope the Republicans get it together quick. I'm rootin' for ya, believe me.

Cody Covey
07-02-2009, 10:12 PM
so my simplistic version of what you are saying is, well the last president from a party is bad so im not going to consider another from that party and blindly vote for the other party? Seems thats what many did and are now getting exactly what they asked for. Obama never really tried to hide anything, he didn't have to. Can't lie if you aren't asked the question. Maybe now voters will decide to get more informed. Or maybe the welfare state is now what america wants. If so then I want no part of it.

luvalab
07-02-2009, 11:19 PM
so my simplistic version of what you are saying is, well the last president from a party is bad so im not going to consider another from that party and blindly vote for the other party? Seems thats what many did and are now getting exactly what they asked for. Obama never really tried to hide anything, he didn't have to. Can't lie if you aren't asked the question. Maybe now voters will decide to get more informed. Or maybe the welfare state is now what america wants. If so then I want no part of it.

This is not a simplistic version--it is an incorrect version.

Speaking for myself, I was perfectly well-informed and made a deliberate, not blind, decision. I asked every question possible of myself and considered the words and records of both candidates.

Perhaps others voted blindly. I did not, nor did many people I know. I am sorry you interpreted that from my posts. I will say it again--it was a deliberate, deliberated decision. In a better world, I would have had two better candidates from two better parties to choose between.

And by the way--The more Republicans call folks who voted for Obama blind, uninformed, or other substitute words for "stupid," the less likely it will be that those of us who voted--deliberately, not blindly--for Obama will be willing to consider a Republican in the near future, no matter how unhappy we may be in four years.

And also--I, personally, do not think we are headed for a welfare state. I have come to the conclusion that Obama has absolutely no intention of even considering the poor, much less assisting them. What I see is government and business merging, with government and business reaping the benefits.

The poor are just an excuse for what's going on. So is the environment. Just as it was with the Republicans, so it seems to be with the Democrats--it's about money, business, and power. The rest is just distraction. So much for "change."

Cody Covey
07-02-2009, 11:32 PM
I did not mean you voted blindly, sorry if it came off that way.
You said you voted against your principles to get even and send a message to the republican party (not saying that mccain stood for your principles btw). I think its a big cop out when folks say they voted against republicans because of Bush. You voted for who you thought would help you out most with his hope and change and now that its more of the same you realize its not such a great idea. If you actually cared for the principles of what you believe you would not have voted for Obama who has a history of liberal policies and was voted the most liberal senator in the Senate for the short time he was in there. You knew what you were getting and voted against your principles. If it takes catering to the other party to get votes then i don't want them i would rather have someone that sticks up for the beliefs of the republican party then to pander to a certain group of people outside those beliefs

luvalab
07-03-2009, 01:54 AM
I did not mean you voted blindly, sorry if it came off that way.
You said you voted against your principles NO I DID NOT to get even and send a message NO I DID NOT to the republican party (not saying that mccain stood for your principles btw). THEN WHY WOULD I VOTE FOR HIM, EITHER? I think its a big cop out when folks say they voted against republicans because of Bush. I VOTED FOR SOMEONE, THOUGH TO A LARGE DEGREE BECAUSE MCCAIN AFFIRMED THAT HE WOULD CONTINUE BUSH'S POLICIES,WHICH I DISAGREED WITH. You voted for who you thought would help you out most with his hope and change IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME, IT HAD TO DO WITH WHAT I THOUGHT WAS BEST FOR THE COUNTRY; I AM SINGLE, NO CHILDREN, EMPLOYED, AND ABLE-BODIED--I'VE NEVER PERSONALLY CAUGHT A BREAK FROM A POLITICAL DECISION and now that its more of the same WHICH OBAMA CAMPAIGNED AGAINST, AND BTW, MORE OF THE SAME IS WHAT MCCAIN ACTUALLY PLEDGED you realize its not such a great idea. THE IDEA WAS FINE; THE OUTCOME IS CONTRARY TO THE IDEA. If you actually cared for the principles of what you believe you would not have voted for Obama WHO WOULD I HAVE VOTED FOR??? NEITHER CANDIDATE REPRESENTED MY PRINCIPLES ADEQUATELY, AND I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THROWING AWAY A VOTE NOR DO I BELIEVE IN ABSTAINING who has a history of liberal policies THAT'S NOT THE CORE ISSUE AS I SEE IT and was voted ??? the most liberal senator in the Senate THIS, IN MY ANALYSIS, WAS PROPAGANDA for the short time he was in there. You knew what you were getting NO, I'M TELLING YOU I GOT THE OPPOSITE and voted against your principles. AGAIN, NEITHER CANDIDATE REPRESENTED MY PRINCIPLES; I VOTED FOR THE PERSON I THOUGHT WOULD DO A BETTER JOB THAN THE OTHER, EVEN IF THAT MEANT THE PERSON WHO WOULD DO THE LEAST DAMAGE If it takes catering to the other party to get votes then i don't want them I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO CATER--JUST TO REALIZE THAT I AM NEITHER STUPID NOR UNTHOUGHTFUL, AND IF REPUBLICANS KEEP SAYING I AM THERE'S LITTLE CHANCE I'LL VOTE REPUBLICAN. i would rather have someone that sticks up for the beliefs of the republican party AND WHAT ARE THOSE??? AND WHAT PARTY MEMBER FOLLOWS THEM, PRAY TELL??? PRODUCE A CANDIDATE THAT CAN ARTICULATE THEM AND FOLLOW THROUGH ON THEM (AND DOESN'T CALL ME STUPID) AND I WILL CERTAINLY CONSIDER HIM OR HER then to pander to a certain group of people outside those beliefs I WOULD CERTAINLY NOT ASK ANYONE TO PANDER. SOMEONE ASKED WHY I VOTED FOR OBAMA, AND I'M TELLING HIM.

I guess when you get right down to it, I think the two parties are basically interchangeable. I do not believe in not voting, and I did not want to throw my vote into the wind.

!Sorry about the all-caps, by the way--I didn't mean to yell the WHOLE time, but now I'm too tired to go back and retype.)

Cody Covey
07-03-2009, 12:47 PM
I suppose I just don't understand how someone can look at Barack Obama and think they would've gotten anything other than what they are now getting. Again he didn't hide anything, his voting record was out there. Thats the thing about politicians some of them lie and if someone says they are all of a sudden going to do something completely the opposite as they have always done without any reason, they are probably lying. As was the case with Barrack Obama. You voted for who you felt was the best candidate for youu and that is definitely your right and its great that you are willing to get involved. McCain ran on being a fiscal conservative and social liberal. Sounds like thats exactly what you guys wanted. He said he would completely stop spending (wouldn't have happened but if we are going off campain promises) kept the lower taxes. Lower taxes and lower spending generally equate to huge deficits which is where Bush went wrong. He lowered taxes and the economy rebounded, he forgot to cut the spending and spent like crazy. Now we have a huge deficit.

Another thing people don't realise is that the democrats were in office for the last 2 years of his administration. If he would've used the veto power a bit more we wouldn't have the spending we did. Congress controls the spending. Not "neccessarily" the President. Bush even said in an interview that he couldn't veto as much as he wanted to because democrats tied spending up into Military funding.

Again McCain ran on the same conservative policies that we all are saying we need and want in the party. Also some liberal ones that we don't want. Obama ran on cutting taxes and increasing spending, just like what Bush actually did, but for some odd reason people didn't look at his voting record or realise they were voting for what we just got out of as far as fiscal troubles and yet somehow people think that we are getting something different. Which i suppose is true because Obama is trying to do the same just on a much grander and more sweeping scale.

luvalab
07-03-2009, 02:20 PM
... McCain ran on being a fiscal conservative and social liberal. ...

???

Not seeing much terribly conservative about his economics, nor much liberal about his social issues.

Oh, well. I've done all the explaining I can muster the energy to type about.

I've trained my dogs and gotten some sun, and now I'm going to take a 15 minute nap. Then I'm going to go make a coconut cream pie, and bring it to a barbecue, and watch fireworks, and probably talk politics face to face with folks I know, and there may be adult beverages involved. It should be a good 4th celebration.

Glad to be able to talk politics, just wish there was some good news to talk about--beyond that we can still talk about it. Still a great country. Have a good day.

Cody Covey
07-03-2009, 10:16 PM
well hope you have a great time! Hppy 4th everyone.