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Matt McKenzie
07-04-2009, 05:28 PM
I was reading some of the posts on the other threads (even that fossil train wreck) and it seems that there are many folks with ideas about what the Republican party should do to get back on track. What do you think? What planks would they have to put in the platform for you to vote Republican? What do they need to toss over the side?
In my opinion, there are a few key conservative issues that they need to concentrate on:

1. Fiscal conservatism. Low taxes, limited government, etc. The problem is that they have to walk the walk. So far, they haven't done any better with this than the Dems. In my opinion, every Department needs a total audit and some departments need to just be dismantled (Education, for example).

2. The FairTax. It is easy to demagogue, but it would change this country for the better.

3. Fixing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. It might be political suicide, but it needs to be done and they aren't winning now anyway. Somebody has to have the 'nads to point out the elephant in the room.

4. Strong national defense. Self explanatory

5. Get out of the gay marriage argument. Same goes for abortion. You can't win and it drives people away from the party. A big part of the reason that we have Obama, Pelosi and Reid leading our country right now.

6. Continue the war on Islamic extremism and call it what it is. Stop wasting resources on the "war on drugs". It is as ridiculous as the left's "war on poverty". You can't stop people from getting high by trying to shut off their supply any more than you can stop people from being poor by giving them a government check.

7. Push to clean up Congress. Earmark reform, hold the thieves and scoundrels in the GOP accountable, push for term limits. Get serious about cutting the pork. Sorry, but some folks just have to take a shot for the team.

Most people in the country have basic conservative values. Most people in this country (I hope) still believe in self-sufficiency, hard work, God, free enterprise and the American Dream. Regardless of what you may think of Reagan, he inspired people by speaking about the things that they already believed in. He didn't need "new ideas". He communicated the old ideas that work. We need somebody who can do the same.

What do you think?

luvalab
07-04-2009, 06:08 PM
I was reading some of the posts on the other threads (even that fossil train wreck) and it seems that there are many folks with ideas about what the Republican party should do to get back on track. What do you think? What planks would they have to put in the platform for you to vote Republican? What do they need to toss over the side?
In my opinion, there are a few key conservative issues that they need to concentrate on:

1. Fiscal conservatism. Low taxes, limited government, etc. The problem is that they have to walk the walk. So far, they haven't done any better with this than the Dems. Agree. In my opinion, every Department needs a total audit and some departments need to just be dismantled (Education, for example). Agree.

2. The FairTax. It is easy to demagogue, but it would change this country for the better. In theory, yes; in practice, undecided.

3. Fixing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. It might be political suicide, but it needs to be done and they aren't winning now anyway. Somebody has to have the 'nads to point out the elephant in the room. If Social Security is "fixed" so that I personally lose out, after all the other losses I've happily suffered for being single, childless, able-bodied, and self-sufficient--well, then I'll NEVER vote Republican. I am a lucky person--I've always been happy to share a little and take a hit when needed, despite mostly living paycheck to paycheck. Don't mess with the promise that money that's been taken to ensure that others are not impoverished in old age will not be returned in some modest way when I am old. I don't expect that social security will make me rich, nor that it should be my only retirement plan, nor that I'll actually get as much or more than what I've put in no matter how long I live--I don't see it as an investment. However, it will probably be the difference between comfort and poverty for me. Don't mess with the implied promise of every paycheck of my working life.

4. Strong national defense. Self explanatory. Strong national defense--agree; strong national OFFENSE, disagree.

5. Get out of the gay marriage argument. Agree. Same goes for abortion. Agree. You can't win and it drives people away from the party. Agree. A big part of the reason that we have Obama, Pelosi and Reid leading our country right now. Agree.

6. Continue the war on Islamic extremism and call it what it is. Disagree. See no. 4 above. I do not believe in "pro-active military defense"--I believe in the soveriegnty of the modern state. I believe in diplomacy and sanction and all sorts of other stuff, however. Stop wasting resources on the "war on drugs". Agree. It is as ridiculous as the left's "war on poverty". Agree. You can't stop people from getting high by trying to shut off their supply any more than you can stop people from being poor by giving them a government check. Agree.

7. Push to clean up Congress. Earmark reform, hold the thieves and scoundrels in the GOP accountable, push for term limits. Get serious about cutting the pork. Sorry, but some folks just have to take a shot for the team. Agree.

Most people in the country have basic conservative values. Most people in this country (I hope) still believe in self-sufficiency, hard work, God, free enterprise and the American Dream. Regardless of what you may think of Reagan, he inspired people by speaking about the things that they already believed in. He didn't need "new ideas". He communicated the old ideas that work. We need somebody who can do the same.

What do you think?

I usually see myself as either so right, I'm left--or so left, I'm right. Or just plain split.

Genuinely left elements--I believe in a social safety net, and I believe that in a perfect world, with all else working well, the government of a truly rich and civilized nation would oversee the funding (and only the funding) of a single-payer health care system. I don't worry about it, though, as I think we're sooooooo far from being in a position to be able to do it well that it needs to be left to the private sector for the foreseeable future.

Genuinely conservative elements--government out of personal lives, strong states rights, strong second amendment. Education funding and curriculum should be handled at the local and state levels. Fiscal conservative with the above exceptions. Somewhat of a protectionist.

I don't really know that the Republican party wants me. :p Up to you!

K.Bullock
07-04-2009, 06:08 PM
I was reading some of the posts on the other threads (even that fossil train wreck) and it seems that there are many folks with ideas about what the Republican party should do to get back on track. What do you think? What planks would they have to put in the platform for you to vote Republican? What do they need to toss over the side?
In my opinion, there are a few key conservative issues that they need to concentrate on:

1. Fiscal conservatism. Low taxes, limited government, etc. The problem is that they have to walk the walk. So far, they haven't done any better with this than the Dems. In my opinion, every Department needs a total audit and some departments need to just be dismantled (Education, for example).

2. The FairTax. It is easy to demagogue, but it would change this country for the better.

3. Fixing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. It might be political suicide, but it needs to be done and they aren't winning now anyway. Somebody has to have the 'nads to point out the elephant in the room.

4. Strong national defense. Self explanatory

5. Get out of the gay marriage argument. Same goes for abortion. You can't win and it drives people away from the party. A big part of the reason that we have Obama, Pelosi and Reid leading our country right now.

6. Continue the war on Islamic extremism and call it what it is. Stop wasting resources on the "war on drugs". It is as ridiculous as the left's "war on poverty". You can't stop people from getting high by trying to shut off their supply any more than you can stop people from being poor by giving them a government check.

7. Push to clean up Congress. Earmark reform, hold the thieves and scoundrels in the GOP accountable, push for term limits. Get serious about cutting the pork. Sorry, but some folks just have to take a shot for the team.

Most people in the country have basic conservative values. Most people in this country (I hope) still believe in self-sufficiency, hard work, God, free enterprise and the American Dream. Regardless of what you may think of Reagan, he inspired people by speaking about the things that they already believed in. He didn't need "new ideas". He communicated the old ideas that work. We need somebody who can do the same.

What do you think?
If I thought Obama beat McCain on the issues and not just hype I might be wringing my hands, I don't believe he did though.

I certainly wouldn't compromise issues of character or morality to cater to liberals ...that doesn't make sense.

YardleyLabs
07-04-2009, 06:14 PM
In my mind, fiscal conservatism begins with a budget that is balanced over time with deficits only when there is a need for economic stimulus and surpluses when there is a need for economic brakes. Cut expenses to the extent tolerable and raise taxes to pay the balance if you are not willing to cut more. Unfortunately, Republicans have always led with low taxes and failed to follow through with expense reductions to match. Bankrupting the country is not fiscal conservatism; it's onanism. Urgent need does not justify deficits. If money is needed to fight a war, raise taxes to pay for it.

Small government begins with staying out of people's personal business.

Competitive market economics: Recognize that the magic of Adam Smith results from competition, not unbridled greed at the expense of competition. Use the economic power of government to limit the ability of economic giants to leverage their size to undermine competition, and recognize that competition is needed on all dimensions: business to business, business to labor, business to consumer. If any player dominates, the value of competition disappears.

The role of the corporation: Do not give corporations rights that are denied to individuals. Our constitution was written for the people, not for the companies. We have extended almost all personal civil liberties to companies as if they were people. However, we have shielded companies from responsibility and liability for their actions in a manner that we have appropriately denied to individuals. Greater responsibility and accountability is needed both for individuals and companies.

Champion equal opportunity: As a society, we need to stimulate the energy and creativity of the best of our people without regard to circumstances of birth. It should be as easy to move down the social ladder as it is to move up. Wealth should not shield those born to privilege from having to earn their way and lack of wealth should not prevent our next generation of leaders from reaching their potential.

If these became the platforms of the Republican Party, I would vote Republican.

Franco
07-04-2009, 06:22 PM
What do you think?



I agree with ALL of it! This is a very level-headed approach.

Voters are frightened by the out-of-control spending and we need to roll that spending way back. They are also going to have to promise to end the destructive legislation that will be passed like Cap and Trade and Nataionalized Healthcare.

I'll also add that we need serious Tort Reform. I know doctors that have quit practicing because of all the frevilious lawsuits and outrageous settlements. They feel like they are working to pay insurance premiums.

Cody Covey
07-04-2009, 06:29 PM
You should have to work your ass off to get to the top it should not be easy at all...period. Jeff from your talk about taxes in different threads you sound to be fairly well off and I am sure you busted your ass to get there. Someone should not be able to get there easily but once they do what they do with their money is their business. Whether that is give it all to grandchildren so they can live a lavish life and do nothing or buy gay hookers to their hearts content it is not my business. As far as a safety net. make your own. Don't live outside your means and save money in case something happens. You shouldn't be allowed to steal from your neighbors hard earned money (or their not earned inherited money) because you were to irresponsible to save and plan ahead.

As for everything posted in the original post i would have to agree with. Especially education, IIfeel that if government is going to be in the business of education they should at least provide vouchers for parents to be able to decide where their child goes to school. Why should the government dictate your education

Matt McKenzie
07-04-2009, 06:40 PM
In my mind, fiscal conservatism begins with a budget that is balanced over time with deficits only when there is a need for economic stimulus and surpluses when there is a need for economic brakes. Cut expenses to the extent tolerable and raise taxes to pay the balance if you are not willing to cut more. Unfortunately, Republicans have always led with low taxes and failed to follow through with expense reductions to match. Bankrupting the country is not fiscal conservatism; it's onanism. Urgent need does not justify deficits. If money is needed to fight a war, raise taxes to pay for it.

Small government begins with staying out of people's personal business.

Competitive market economics: Recognize that the magic of Adam Smith results from competition, not unbridled greed at the expense of competition. Use the economic power of government to limit the ability of economic giants to leverage their size to undermine competition, and recognize that competition is needed on all dimensions: business to business, business to labor, business to consumer. If any player dominates, the value of competition disappears.

The role of the corporation: Do not give corporations rights that are denied to individuals. Our constitution was written for the people, not for the companies. We have extended almost all personal civil liberties to companies as if they were people. However, we have shielded companies from responsibility and liability for their actions in a manner that we have appropriately denied to individuals. Greater responsibility and accountability is needed both for individuals and companies.

Champion equal opportunity: As a society, we need to stimulate the energy and creativity of the best of our people without regard to circumstances of birth. It should be as easy to move down the social ladder as it is to move up. Wealth should not shield those born to privilege from having to earn their way and lack of wealth should not prevent our next generation of leaders from reaching their potential.

If these became the platforms of the Republican Party, I would vote Republican.

Jeff,
Could you flesh out the paragraphs about equal opportunity and the role of the corporation with some examples of how you would do that? I think I might agree with the concepts, but I need to understand more about the execution.
Thanks

K.Bullock,
I'm not sure what you mean by, "I certainly wouldn't compromise issues of character or morality to cater to liberals ...that doesn't make sense." Could you elaborate? By the way, I'm not interested in catering to anybody, liberal or otherwise.
Thanks

Franco
07-04-2009, 06:59 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by, "I certainly wouldn't compromise issues of character or morality to cater to liberals ...that doesn't make sense." Could you elaborate? By the way, I'm not interested in catering to anybody, liberal or otherwise.
Thanks

The idea of government legislating morality is a liberal mindset, just look at Iran if one wants to see how far it can go. It is also an issue that will drive moderate voters to the Dems and keep them in power.

Marvin S
07-04-2009, 07:09 PM
1. Fiscal conservatism. Low taxes, limited government, etc. The problem is that they have to walk the walk. So far, they haven't done any better with this than the Dems. In my opinion, every Department needs a total audit and some departments need to just be dismantled (Education, for example).

If you are saying we need to whittle the total government payroll & get out of areas the Feds have no business being involved? I agree.


2. The FairTax. It is easy to demagogue, but it would change this country for the better.

I've tried to get this debate going several times - I will note that most of the proponents run for cover like a Lefty. The only tax should be a FLAT tax, & I am willing to debate that.


3. Fixing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. It might be political suicide, but it needs to be done and they aren't winning now anyway. Somebody has to have the 'nads to point out the elephant in the room.

I'm involved with SS & Medicare. I didn't ask for the drug program but you have to sign up to protect yourself. In general they work quite well as they are, but I do not want unusual measures taken to keep me going when it's my time. I believe a little tweaking would help, but when you receive care like our congresscritters you don't understand reality. They have also loaded these programs up with many who have not earned the benefit. As for Medicaid - it's welfare & should be treated as such.


4. Strong national defense. Self explanatory

Agree - might even favor some requirement for all young folks. ;)


5. Get out of the gay marriage argument. Same goes for abortion. You can't win and it drives people away from the party. A big part of the reason that we have Obama, Pelosi and Reid leading our country right now.

Those people already have more rights than a normal person


6. Continue the war on Islamic extremism and call it what it is. Stop wasting resources on the "war on drugs". It is as ridiculous as the left's "war on poverty". You can't stop people from getting high by trying to shut off their supply any more than you can stop people from being poor by giving them a government check.

Too many topics - terrorism, Agree. If the cops solve the drug problem there will be less cops - it's that simple. Tax the hell out of them, like liquor & watch it disappear.


7. Push to clean up Congress. Earmark reform, hold the thieves and scoundrels in the GOP accountable, push for term limits. Get serious about cutting the pork. Sorry, but some folks just have to take a shot for the team.

As I've posted before, no retirement package for elected officials - they will be gone in a heartbeat.

That's IMO - :) :)

YardleyLabs
07-04-2009, 08:25 PM
You should have to work your ass off to get to the top it should not be easy at all...period. Jeff from your talk about taxes in different threads you sound to be fairly well off and I am sure you busted your ass to get there. Someone should not be able to get there easily but once they do what they do with their money is their business. Whether that is give it all to grandchildren so they can live a lavish life and do nothing or buy gay hookers to their hearts content it is not my business. As far as a safety net. make your own. Don't live outside your means and save money in case something happens. You shouldn't be allowed to steal from your neighbors hard earned money (or their not earned inherited money) because you were to irresponsible to save and plan ahead.

...

I believe that inherited wealth, when the amounts involved allow a person to undermine the competitive opportunities available to others, will undermine a capitalist economy over time by creating a permanent economic aristocracy. Ultimately that reduces innovation and competition. A non-confiscatory estate tax on large estates promotes competition and competitive opportunity. The biggest problem with the pre-Bush estate tax was that the value of a tax free estate did not go up with inflation over time. If it had, it would have been possible to pass on a substantial estate ($5 million+) without taxes. However, for estates over that amount, I believe a either a 50% tax or a straight income tax on the estate would be appropriate. Note that one of the primary proponents of this type of approach is William Gates Sr. A secondary issue with our estate tax process is that it allows certain gains to go altogether untaxed because they are passed at their current market value without payment of the capital gains taxes by the estate that would have been paid on a sale by the decedent.


Jeff,
Could you flesh out the paragraphs about equal opportunity and the role of the corporation with some examples of how you would do that? I think I might agree with the concepts, but I need to understand more about the execution.
Thanks

...

My children are bright, responsible, and hard working. Though still young they have been very successful in their chosen endeavors and have been rewarded financially.

However, the fact that they were able to attend some of the finest secondary schools in the country (both public and private), followed by parent paid stints at NYU and Brown respectively, didn't hurt their chances. Having parents who attended similar schools, had graduate degrees (PhD and MPA), and worked hard to socialize and challenge them to meet their potentials also helped. There were never any health issues in the famly that affected their lives. There were never any financial shortages.

So my kids have worked hard for what the have and were born with a lot of innate talent. But their successes have been greatly aided by sunny skies and the wind at their backs. Obviously, those are gifts that sometimes create softness, but I believe we avoided that. They were never just given anything and when they graduated, their financial independence was immediate and absolute: no big checks (or even small ones), no new cars, just hugs, kisses, and good wishes.

However, if either of my kids ever yelled out that they earned every penny they have and shouldn't have to share with others, I would hit them over the head with a 2x4 and suggest they try it again with uneducated, poor parents, family health problems, inner city schools, and no access to college unless they could earn scholarships or pay themselves. Ultimately, equal opportunity has to begin with kids and the opportunities we give them to develop their potential independently of what they receive by accident of birth. Obviously, nothing can create truly equal opportunity, but we can do a lot better than we do now. Today, I see kids all the time whose lives are being squeezed dry by the lack of real opportunities to succeed. Some may be brilliant and driven enough to survive anyway, but they will probably never achieve what they should have. Most will become part of our institutional poor, worn down and broken by homelessness, poverty, schools that are happy to see them leave, drugs, and violence. Today, they are bright, accomplished, articulate and imaginative six and seven year olds. Tomorrow they are so much socil and economic detritus. "No child left behind" was a good slogan, but it was not backed up with programs to make a difference, only tests to prove failure.

With respect to corporations, there may still be aneed for tort reform, but there is a greater need for improved corporate accountability, including expanded personal liability for actions taken by individuals in connection with their jobs.

This is a tricky issue. Obviously, one of the problems in or legal system is that there is a tendency to assume that anytime something goes wrong that it must be someone's fault. Obviously, no doctor can perform 300 heart surgeries per year and never make a mistake. At some level, mistakes are part of the inherent risk of the procedure. However, we let malpractice cases go forward with no consideration of this reality. To make it worse, we have actually incorporated such personal liability settlements into our strategies for financing certain forms of medical care. For example, there is now almost an assumption that any non-genetic birth defect should have been prevented by the obstetrician and the hospital and malpractice settlements are the primary source of financing for the care of those affected. However, realistically, almost all of these cases are ineivtable accidents because accidents will happen.

While we have gone too far in such cases, we have not gone far enough in cases of gross corporate malfeasance. This became apparent to me 30 years ago. A friend was stopped at a traffic light in her Ford. The car behind wasn't paying attention and rear ended her at a speed of 3-5 miles per hour. The car my friend was driving had a forward facing gas fill pipe and a tank that was held to the body of the car with rigid struts. The combination was lethal. The gas tank ruptured and the gas was thrown forward onto my friend. She was an extraordinarily beautiful 23 year old whose husband was a physician. She spent the next two years in hospitals with surgeries every few weeks. Fortunately for her, her face was untouched. The rest of her body was covered with a mass of scars and it was more than a year before she could walk again.

They sued Ford. Ford denied all responsibility and in an extensive trial put numerous engineers on the stand to indicate that, based on the state of the art of engineering technology when the car was built, that fixed struts and forward facing fill pipes were accepted practice. In the middle of the trial, Jack Anderson published a column mentioning that there were films of low speed crashes with this same vehicle model showing explosions. They were able to obtain copies of the films and prove that Ford was completely aware of the problem and that Ford had considered replacing the fixed struts with flexible ones (similar to ones on other models) but rejected that change because it would have increased costs by less than $10/car. The engineers that had testified as "experts" were actually people in Ford who had that as their sole job. They were shielded from any involvement in product development and were never shown any test results. In the liability case, the jury found Ford guilty of gross negligence.

Under NJ law, once liability was established they needed to have a completely separate trial on damages to be awarded. In that trial the jury was not permitted to be told about any of the circumstances concerning the case. Ford focused all of its efforts on showing photos of my beautiful friend in her long skirt dress with her physician husband in their Manhattan apartment. The final award was for $50,000. As part of the judgment they were not allowed medical expenses since those were covered by their own insurance.

Damages aside, some one at Ford should have gone to jail for the design failure involved. Someone else should have gone to jail for structuring the legal defense that was outright fraud. Instead, I suspect that both parties involved received bonuses and promotions for their service.

In a microcosm, this is an example of how individuals, acting within the limits of their jobs, are allowed to commit crimes as employees of a corporation that would land you or me in jail if we did the same thing to our neighbor. We multiply this senseless immunity over and over with the result that Bernie Madoff's family and employees will still end up rich from Bernie's exploits and Michael Milken was paid so much for his time in jail that I would have been happy to join him for a 5% stake.

If my perspective seems too populist, understand that my background is as a former Partner in one of the largest accounting firms in the world. I provided litigation support services that were instrumental in helping one of my clients reduce a damage award from $1.8 billion to $37 million. I provided litigation support for one of the major brokerage firms accused of check kiting and of a major electronics importers for illegal dumping. My clients have included the top insurance, communications, brokerage, banking, consumer products, advertising, pharmaceutical, and oil companies as well as numerous governmental agencies. I can't say that I've seen people get away with murder, but they have come very close with impunity.

The problems grew dramatically worse under the Reagan, Clinton and Bush (W) administrations. I believe it threatens competition and the fabric of our democracy and our economy. The economic collapse we are now witnessing is a symptom of the problem and will get worse if the problem is not addressed.

Matt McKenzie
07-04-2009, 11:36 PM
Jeff,
All of that is a very interesting discussion of your views, but doesn't recommend any specific action.
For example, I agree with you to the extent that we are all born with a different set of advantages and disadvantages. Some overcome their disadvantages and succeed to a degree far beyond what we might expect. Others fail miserably regardless of their advantages. What, if anything, do you propose that our government should do about that? What specific legislation can positively change that situation without causing as much harm as good?

K.Bullock
07-04-2009, 11:45 PM
K.Bullock,
I'm not sure what you mean by, "I certainly wouldn't compromise issues of character or morality to cater to liberals ...that doesn't make sense." Could you elaborate? By the way, I'm not interested in catering to anybody, liberal or otherwise.
Thanks

If we say the government should have no role in legislating morality I would totally agree, but as long as someone is pushing their immorality and attempting to socially re engineer our culture to suit a liberal ideal we need a platform of response to it. I think that Republicans are much less aggressive legislating social issues than the Democrats are.

Cody Covey
07-05-2009, 01:30 AM
Pretty sure that i agree with none of your view points in that post Jeff. People are born into different economic situations. Some succeed some don't. If you don't have the drive and willingness to succeed you won't. I should not be conscripted into paying for other peoples problems unless i somehow caused them to happen. I didn't cause you to fail out of school and never have a job. Kids can pay for themselves to get through college. Can you go to Brown? Doubtful but you can certainly go to normal state universities if you try hard enough. Hell i went to a community college got a degree in networking, worked full time the whole way through and paid most my self. Did i pay all, no but i certainly could of very easily. People need to stop complaining abuot who is holding them back and just to work on bettering themselves.

I walked up to a house last year while selling door to door and group of people sitting on the porch at 11:30 AM with a beer in one hand and a joint in the other. When i asked them how they were doing they said "Well Bush is in office so i don't have a job" I was like wow you aren't out trying to get a job because the president in office. nothing to do with drinking at 11 in the morning to start off your day.

Matt McKenzie
07-05-2009, 08:58 AM
Pretty sure that i agree with none of your view points in that post Jeff. People are born into different economic situations. Some succeed some don't. If you don't have the drive and willingness to succeed you won't. I should not be conscripted into paying for other peoples problems unless i somehow caused them to happen. I didn't cause you to fail out of school and never have a job. Kids can pay for themselves to get through college. Can you go to Brown? Doubtful but you can certainly go to normal state universities if you try hard enough. Hell i went to a community college got a degree in networking, worked full time the whole way through and paid most my self. Did i pay all, no but i certainly could of very easily. People need to stop complaining abuot who is holding them back and just to work on bettering themselves.

I walked up to a house last year while selling door to door and group of people sitting on the porch at 11:30 AM with a beer in one hand and a joint in the other. When i asked them how they were doing they said "Well Bush is in office so i don't have a job" I was like wow you aren't out trying to get a job because the president in office. nothing to do with drinking at 11 in the morning to start off your day.

Don't you get it? They have to drink to cool down from the global warming that Bush caused. It's not their fault.

Matt McKenzie
07-05-2009, 09:00 AM
If we say the government should have no role in legislating morality I would totally agree, but as long as someone is pushing their immorality and attempting to socially re engineer our culture to suit a liberal ideal we need a platform of response to it. I think that Republicans are much less aggressive legislating social issues than the Democrats are.

What legislation do you propose to combat this "social re-engineering"? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is you want.
Thanks

K.Bullock
07-05-2009, 10:21 AM
What legislation do you propose to combat this "social re-engineering"? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is you want.
Thanks

Legislation? ...make it illegal to hold office if your a liberal. That would be an excellent beginning. ;)


Why would I need to propose legislation to know where I stand and where I will draw a line on social issues?

Franco
07-05-2009, 10:58 AM
Legislation? ...make it illegal to hold office if your a liberal. That would be an excellent beginning. ;)


Why would I need to propose legislation to know where I stand and where I will draw a line on social issues?

Most politics IS social engineering. That is why we need to define elected officials roll in government so that we can remain a free people.

Matt McKenzie
07-05-2009, 11:03 AM
Legislation? ...make it illegal to hold office if your a liberal. That would be an excellent beginning. ;)


Why would I need to propose legislation to know where I stand and where I will draw a line on social issues?

Because the topic of the thread is what the GOP should do to get back on track, not what your personal religious beliefs are. Like everyone, I have personal values and beliefs but that doesn't mean that I want all of them as planks of a political party's platform. I want a party who's primary guiding document is the Constitution of the United States. I want all of its candidates and supporters to be intimately familiar with that document and and to defend it and use it as a guide in all decisions in government. Unlikely, I know, but if you're going to dream......

K.Bullock
07-05-2009, 11:32 AM
Because the topic of the thread is what the GOP should do to get back on track, not what your personal religious beliefs are. Like everyone, I have personal values and beliefs but that doesn't mean that I want all of them as planks of a political party's platform. I want a party who's primary guiding document is the Constitution of the United States. I want all of its candidates and supporters to be intimately familiar with that document and and to defend it and use it as a guide in all decisions in government. Unlikely, I know, but if you're going to dream......

Quote me (in context) and show exactly where we are in disagreement. And we will start from there.

cotts135
07-06-2009, 06:45 AM
I would like to add two more points to Hooksets original post.

1. Sharply curtail the influence of lobbyist's in Washington.

2. Clean up Wall St. and put an end to the systematic embezzlement of peoples savings and investments. While their at it, stop these large mega mergers between company's where the end effect is now one company to large to fail. Especially in the Banking business.

Matt McKenzie
07-06-2009, 08:19 AM
I would like to add two more points to Hooksets original post.

1. Sharply curtail the influence of lobbyist's in Washington.

2. Clean up Wall St. and put an end to the systematic embezzlement of peoples savings and investments. While their at it, stop these large mega mergers between company's where the end effect is now one company to large to fail. Especially in the Banking business.

Sounds good. How do you propose to implement these ideas without violating First Amendment rights or stifling free enterprise? As an aside, I don't buy into the "too big to fail" idea, but that's just me.

cotts135
07-06-2009, 09:19 AM
Sounds good. How do you propose to implement these ideas without violating First Amendment rights or stifling free enterprise? As an aside, I don't buy into the "too big to fail" idea, but that's just me.
Absolute transparency when it comes to lobbyists and their dealings with politicians.(hardly likely) and a further reduction in allowable campaign contributions

Better oversight and stricter enforcement of current law would be a start including Anti trust laws. I don't think you inhibit free enterprise when you make those involved honest.

txbadger
07-06-2009, 09:50 AM
Perhaps the real question should be why just two parties?

Golddogs
07-06-2009, 10:55 AM
". Get out of the gay marriage argument. Same goes for abortion. You can't win and it drives people away from the party. A big part of the reason that we have Obama, Pelosi and Reid leading our country right now. "


This alone has cost more Republicans seats than any other subject. Let it fade away, because nothing is ever going to change it and harping on it will only continue to lose elections. It should not be national party platform material.

Hew
07-06-2009, 12:09 PM
I 1. Fiscal conservatism. Low taxes, limited government, etc. The problem is that they have to walk the walk. So far, they haven't done any better with this than the Dems. In my opinion, every Department needs a total audit and some departments need to just be dismantled (Education, for example).

2. The FairTax. It is easy to demagogue, but it would change this country for the better.

3. Fixing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. It might be political suicide, but it needs to be done and they aren't winning now anyway. Somebody has to have the 'nads to point out the elephant in the room.

4. Strong national defense. Self explanatory

5. Get out of the gay marriage argument. Same goes for abortion. You can't win and it drives people away from the party. A big part of the reason that we have Obama, Pelosi and Reid leading our country right now.

6. Continue the war on Islamic extremism and call it what it is. Stop wasting resources on the "war on drugs". It is as ridiculous as the left's "war on poverty". You can't stop people from getting high by trying to shut off their supply any more than you can stop people from being poor by giving them a government check.

7. Push to clean up Congress. Earmark reform, hold the thieves and scoundrels in the GOP accountable, push for term limits. Get serious about cutting the pork. Sorry, but some folks just have to take a shot for the team.

Most people in the country have basic conservative values. Most people in this country (I hope) still believe in self-sufficiency, hard work, God, free enterprise and the American Dream. Regardless of what you may think of Reagan, he inspired people by speaking about the things that they already believed in. He didn't need "new ideas". He communicated the old ideas that work. We need somebody who can do the same.

What do you think?
I would like to see most of the items you listed enacted. Unfortunately, any Republican making many of those items a major component of their campaign will get their arse handed to them in an election...badly. Eliminating the Education Department means you hate education. Want to tackle Social Security do ya?...well say goodbye to the AARP and a chunk of the geezer vote. Fair tax? What do you have against the poor? You must hate them too because everyone knows that Fair Tax is regressive.
I like your ideas, but they reach too far. They're much too wonkish for the average American to try to understand. Moreover, the liberal media wear their bleeding hearts on their sleeve and remain nothing more than cheerleaders for democrats/liberal causes. Any mature discussion about issues that aren't totally clear-cut/black and white goes right out the window because the media can and does shape the discussion. And I assure you it won't be shaped in the GOP's direction.

What the GOP needs is The Contract With America II. A list of easily understood positions with realistically attainable goals. Then they need to find and support candidates that are committed to those contract items. As an example, here's what would be on my list:

1. Government can't even run itself competantly. Why should we be expected to run GM any differently? I pledge that I will vote and fight against any additional federal takeovers of any industry.
2. Nobody bails out the American Taxpayer if he can't pay his bills. I pledge that I will vote and fight against any additional government bailouts of any industry.
3. The government, like American Taxpayers, must learn to spend less when economic times are tight. I will fight for an across-the-board, 10% cut in the existing budget of EVERY government agency and program except veterans healthcare.
4. I will vote to reduce Congressional travel and junkets by 50%.
5. I will vote for an independent accounting firm to review the finances of any Congressional member, their spouse, immediate family or staff whose net worth increases by more than 20% in a calender year per their filed income tax report. The independent accounting firm will provide the results in an open session of Congress (not to some committee where the results can be buried).
6. I will vote against any effort to make the government responsible for, or providing oversight, to healthcare. Again, we don't seem to be handling our current responsibilities all that well. Do you want us in charge of your family's health, too?
7. Social security is a pending crisis in this country. How can we be expected to faithfully fix it when we have our own cozy retirement perks guaranteed? I will support and vote for legislation that abolishes Congressional retirement benefits for elected officials. If 401ks, Roth IRAs, and Social Security are good enough for you, they should be good enough for Congress, too.
8. The military is not a private airline for Congress. Any taxpayer-funded trip undertaken by a member of Congress or their staff will be on a commercial airline in coach or business class. No more first class travel.
9. Oil exploration, extraction and refining is infinately cleaner and more environmentally friendly than in the past. I will support any legislation that supports drilling here and drilling now.
10. I vow to fight tooth and nail any future environmental regulations that negatively impact our economy or way of life. I will not ask the American Taxpayer to pay more for their energy needs while fellow members of Congress traipse around the world in chartered military jets to the Virgin Islands and Paris.

I dunno...something along those lines would be nice.

Franco
07-06-2009, 12:45 PM
What about illegal immigration/secure boarders? Can we really have National Security with open boarders?

10% cut of the budget? With the TRILLIONS the current administration is spending, shouldn't those cuts be much deeper?

Hew
07-06-2009, 12:51 PM
What about illegal immigration/secure boarders? Can we really have National Security with open boarders?

10% cut of the budget? With the TRILLIONS the current administration is spending, shouldn't those cuts be much deeper?
Good catch on the illegal immigration. That has to be in there. It's not a hot button for me personally, but it is an election winner for sure.

Franco
07-06-2009, 01:24 PM
What about Tort Reform?

Many doctors have quit practicing because they feel like they are working just to pay thier premiums.

Serious Tort Reform would get the support of the AMA members.

Matt McKenzie
07-06-2009, 02:38 PM
Franco,
I agree that those are both good issues to be addressed. In my opinion, border security falls into strong national defense and war on terror but must be addressed.

Matt McKenzie
07-06-2009, 02:47 PM
John,
I agree with your post. The problem I have with much conventional thinking when it comes to the GOP is that they have been beaten senseless by the Dems when it comes to message. Lots of people already believe that Republicans don't like blacks, don't like poor people, don't like hispanics, etc, etc, etc etc. Part of the reason the Dems have won that battle is that the Republicans spend too much time defending themselves. In my opinion, they should stop trying to disprove those ridiculous ideas and simply come out with a strong message on what they are FOR. For example, coming out strong for border security will likely offend some Hispanic voters. So what? The kind of Hispanic voter that wants illegal aliens in this country is never going to vote Republican, anyway. The GOP has already proven that groveling and kissing their butts doesn't work. Why not stop trying to win the "black vote", "hispanic vote", "gay vote", "independent vote", "AARP vote", etc. and try to win the "American vote"? Come out strong on basic, conservative ideas and let the chips fall where they may. It has been proven that when the message is properly conveyed, it works. The problem is the politicians can't stay the course. The GOP needs fewer politicians and more statesmen.

Hew
07-06-2009, 04:53 PM
John,
I agree with your post. The problem I have with much conventional thinking when it comes to the GOP is that they have been beaten senseless by the Dems when it comes to message. Lots of people already believe that Republicans don't like blacks, don't like poor people, don't like hispanics, etc, etc, etc etc. Part of the reason the Dems have won that battle is that the Republicans spend too much time defending themselves. In my opinion, they should stop trying to disprove those ridiculous ideas and simply come out with a strong message on what they are FOR. For example, coming out strong for border security will likely offend some Hispanic voters. So what? The kind of Hispanic voter that wants illegal aliens in this country is never going to vote Republican, anyway. The GOP has already proven that groveling and kissing their butts doesn't work. Why not stop trying to win the "black vote", "hispanic vote", "gay vote", "independent vote", "AARP vote", etc. and try to win the "American vote"? Come out strong on basic, conservative ideas and let the chips fall where they may. It has been proven that when the message is properly conveyed, it works. The problem is the politicians can't stay the course. The GOP needs fewer politicians and more statesmen.

I nearly totally agree. Particularly that the GOP doesn't need to hide from the issues. Like you pointed out earlier, poll after poll indicates that most Americans consider themselves conservative, and certainly way more than consider themselves liberal. In theory, we should never lose an election. Except we do. Why? I think, in order of importance:

1. An inattentive electorate coupled with a media that is slavish towards democrats means people get their "news" in soundbites that are managed by people who want to see democrats win. This gets you a public that perceives Palin to be too inexperienced to be VP, despite being the top executive for both a city and a state, while Obama is perceived to be experienced enough to be POTUS despite his age, his meager service in the Senate, and that he'd never had a buck stop on his desk in his entire life. Like I said before, I think the GOP should stick to easy-to-digest, conservative core issues and leave the complex, big-idea stuff until once they have office and have gained trust with the electorate. Trying to explain Fair Tax and social security plans to an electorate who hasn't the time, inclination or energy to listen is a losing proposition. For pete's sake...look at the bleating on RTF before the potus site was started..."This is a dog site, I don't want to see anything about politics and will be offended even if you warn me ahead of time not to open a politics thread...but I will happily read the hell out of any thread having to do with puka shells, someone's ass size or whether Ford diesels are better than Dodge diesels because, you know, that stuff is so much more important than who our next president will be." Let the libertarians, greens and socialists educate the electorate. I want to get elected. Hate the game, not the playa. ;-)

2. Poor candidates with poor messages. Bless their hearts and their heroic military service, but Dole and McCain couldn't inspire a troop of girl scouts to run out of a burning building. Both Bushs proved that you don't need to be a world-class orator or champion of big ideas in order to get elected. Just pimp the conservative mantra (as opposed to McCain running from it) and don't have a bunch of skeletons in your closet and that should be good enough. The same applies to all levels of elected office on down to dog catcher.

3. Once elected, the GOP let the public down and became what they fought against. That shat has to stop. But first they have to get elected again to regain the trust.

I enjoy the discussion.

road kill
07-06-2009, 05:18 PM
The GOP should make Gingrich Chairman.
He can do no service running, but could hold the direction.
There are some very bright up and coming true conservatives.
Stop trying to appease the left.
Be who you are.
Guys like McCain, Powell (oh wait, he already cut & ran) et al (RINO's) should just leave the party!

Stick to the core values.

Win or lose, stand for something!!

stan b
(no fomenting of hate intended)

Franco
07-06-2009, 05:20 PM
I agree with the "keep it simple" approach.

Lets don't forget that the most viewed TV show is, American Idol. That alone gives one an idea of how educated the populace is.

Steve
07-06-2009, 07:00 PM
Overall, what is needed is a complete change of culture. How to get there is better left up to the marketing folks than an engineer like me who doesn't fall for the emotional rhetoric.

A start would be, reduction in the size of federal government. Present the message as being for local control and emphasize the shortcomings of a one step approach. For example, what works for New York doesn't necessarily work in Alabama or Montana.

There should be an emphasis on the basic economic principle of "no such thing as a free lunch". Point out the negative effects of government spending and stimulation. Point out the effects of corporate taxes.

Appeal to folks personal experiences. Just about everyone of voting age has been to the DMV. Run ads that show a medical office looking like the DMV.

Matt McKenzie
07-06-2009, 07:04 PM
I agree with the "keep it simple" approach.

Lets don't forget that the most viewed TV show is, American Idol. That alone gives one an idea of how educated the populace is.

American Idol. That's it! What we need is a singing candidate! Brilliant! If we could just turn Reagan's best speeches into rap music, we'd be in there like swimwear.

Seriously, I think John is right on the money. KISS and hope for the best.

TCFarmer
07-07-2009, 12:57 PM
I agree with most of your list, although I would prefer a flat tax over a fair tax.

I would also argue with the point that the gay marriage issue is a losing one. Several states have put it on the ballot and even California voted in favor of traditional marriage.