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View Full Version : Dow tops 9,000 as home sales rise for 3rd month



Roger Perry
07-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Economy picking up?

NEW YORK (AP) -- The Dow Jones industrials rose back above 9,000 for the first time since early January.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WALL_STREET?SITE=FLPAP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-07-23-15-12-27

badbullgator
07-23-2009, 03:49 PM
I don't quite understand it. Here home sales have picked up, BUT homes are selling for 60% less than they once did and many are foreclosed sales. I am not sure how that is exactly a good thing. It is good for cash buyers, but really bad for those who are taking a beating on the sale. Three doors down from me a house that has been for sale (actually foreclosed on) for $450K sold for $219K and was bought as an investment by someone. In parts of Cape Coral houses that sold for 250-300K are going for 70K (they were never really worht 300K IMHO, hell in anyone in their right minds opinion). The thing I also notice is that even though a lot are being sold, nobody is living in them so I can only assume they are investments.

Roger Perry
07-23-2009, 04:25 PM
I don't quite understand it. Here home sales have picked up, BUT homes are selling for 60% less than they once did and many are foreclosed sales. I am not sure how that is exactly a good thing. It is good for cash buyers, but really bad for those who are taking a beating on the sale. Three doors down from me a house that has been for sale (actually foreclosed on) for $450K sold for $219K and was bought as an investment by someone. In parts of Cape Coral houses that sold for 250-300K are going for 70K (they were never really worht 300K IMHO, hell in anyone in their right minds opinion). The thing I also notice is that even though a lot are being sold, nobody is living in them so I can only assume they are investments.

BBG, could you help me out, I seem to have a fuzzy memory.
When that $219K house inflated to $450K who was President?

JDogger
07-23-2009, 05:57 PM
BBG, could you help me out, I seem to have a fuzzy memory.
When that $219K house inflated to $450K who was President?

That guy we're not supposed to talk about anymore.

Just bein' helpful,

JD

Terry Britton
07-23-2009, 05:59 PM
Why can't we talk about Clinton anymore?

Gerry Clinchy
07-23-2009, 06:18 PM
Home sales are not up everywhere.

Here in the Lehigh Valley we experienced a housing boom and inflation of housing prices. Can't compare to prices in places like California, but still a lot of $ for our area. Our sales for the month of June were down about 21%, as well as the median price.

Henry V
07-23-2009, 06:25 PM
So, this is socialism? Wait, did socialism cause the market to adjust? Hmmm.

Looks to me like irrational exuberance and virtually free credit for many years led to a market based collapse that was inevitable. Government intervention has provided some stability (e.g. a backstop) which has helped and will result in an economy that will slowly recover.

Henry V
07-23-2009, 06:28 PM
That guy we're not supposed to talk about anymore.

Just bein' helpful,

JD
Perhaps we should refer to him from now as as "the president who shall not be named".

badbullgator
07-23-2009, 11:39 PM
BBG, could you help me out, I seem to have a fuzzy memory.
When that $219K house inflated to $450K who was President?

No crap! I did not know that. Huh you learn something new everyday. Are you saying Bush was president then and that there was a problem with the economy?
Pull your heads out of your asses. I don’t think ANYBODY here claims Bush was good for the economy? Quick poll….anyone….anyone…..anybody think Bush was good for the economy?
Ok then, what I asked was why an increase in home sales is necessarily good for the economy if the homes that are selling are selling for 40-60%+ less than a couple of years ago. I ask a serious question, because some people are doing well buying the greatly reduced homes, but many are also taking a huge financial hit to the point of being ruined. I did not ask who was president when home prices inflated, or who was responsible. You guys are so programmed to bash Bush that it seems to be all you can do even when your bashing him for something that I doubt you will get much argument about.

JDogger
07-24-2009, 12:32 AM
Oh sorry...I forgot. We're all independents now.

Take yer pick. I did not vote for:

1 Obama

2 McCain

3 Bush

4 Gore

5 Clinton

Ad Nauseam...

Bashing the other guy is what we do here BBG. Come on get in the spirit. :razz:

BTW, people have made money and people have lost money in every administration since I've been around, and it doesn't appear to be changing all that much.

JD

txbadger
07-24-2009, 08:44 AM
I
d suggest a peek at the past, say 1930-1933, before getting all giddy over Dow 9k. The underlying data shows earnings above expectation with revenues below prior quarters on a reduced workforce, pointing the way to a new business model There is still no accounting for the toxic debt We the People have guaranteed & waiving the mark to market rules, again, just postpones the eventual destruction of that toxic debt and final accounting. Guaranteeing an estimate 24 Trillion in bad debt doesn't seem to be a good thing to me.

K G
07-24-2009, 09:57 AM
I'd suggest a peek at the past, say 1930-1933, before getting all giddy over Dow 9k. The underlying data shows earnings above expectation with revenues below prior quarters on a reduced workforce, pointing the way to a new business model There is still no accounting for the toxic debt We the People have guaranteed & waiving the mark to market rules, again, just postpones the eventual destruction of that toxic debt and final accounting. Guaranteeing an estimate 24 Trillion in bad debt doesn't seem to be a good thing to me.

C'mon....the Obama-ites are gonna look for ANYTHING good happening with the economy that they can say he was responsible for as his ratings continue to plummet. Nevermind the pesky details, txbadger....:cool:

I'm just glad he's changed his focus to where his REAL qualifications lie: second-guessing law enforcement during a nationally televised "press conference"....:rolleyes:

kg

tpaschal30
07-24-2009, 06:16 PM
We may make it if HC and Cap and Tax do not pass. We will have massive inflation, but we will make it. Passing a tax increase of either kind (cap and trade or HC) will have the same effect as restricting the money supply. That was the mistake made in the 1930s that turned a recession into depression.

then get rid of the dems in 2010 paralyzing the Mesiah and kick his Jimmy Carter rear end out.

code3retrievers
07-26-2009, 08:57 AM
Its called a bottom!

After several years of a down turn we were about to hit it no matter what idiot is president.

Your savior did nothing to help this correction but his spending us into the abyss will be felt for generations. Thank you!

Lisa Van Loo
07-27-2009, 11:52 AM
what I asked was why an increase in home sales is necessarily good for the economy if the homes that are selling are selling for 40-60%+ less than a couple of years ago. I ask a serious question, because some people are doing well buying the greatly reduced homes, but many are also taking a huge financial hit to the point of being ruined.

This is a really good, core question. Put a different perspective on it, and those who are taking a bath right now may have bought more house than they truly could afford, and/or paid more than their properties were actually worth (but high, sell low is never a good strategy).

The way I look at it is, 3-4 years ago, Labtradoodle pups were selling for $2000-3000 bucks a pop at 7 weeks, with waiting lists. Now, if I even see an ad for pups in my region, they are selling for a couple hundred bucks, and people struggle to get rid of them. It's speculation; buying high with the expectation that the bubble will continue, and it will sell for more than what one paid for it; that almost never continues for long. Price based on demand, rather than actual value almost always shows these huge pendulum swings. When prices normalize to actual value (give those Labradoodles away before they eat you out of house and home), someone is always going to take a bath.

Lisa

YardleyLabs
07-27-2009, 12:06 PM
The good news is that new home sales are up 11% and existing home sales have increased in each of the last three months. The bad news is that prices are down and a high percentage of sales are foreclosure sales. A plus is that these sales are reducing inventory. As inventory reaches more normal levels, prices may stabilize and begin increasing. However, I suspect that the Nasdaq may approach Clinton levels before home prices return to Bush prices.

badbullgator
07-27-2009, 12:22 PM
The good news is that new home sales are up 11% and existing home sales have increased in each of the last three months. The bad news is that prices are down and a high percentage of sales are foreclosure sales. A plus is that these sales are reducing inventory. As inventory reaches more normal levels, prices may stabilize and begin increasing. However, I suspect that the Nasdaq may approach Clinton levels before home prices return to Bush prices.


My problem with that Jeff, is that MOST of the houses being bought, at least in my area, are not primary residences. This means they will do little to clear the existing market, because while they are not on the market right now most are holding them as a investment until prices come back up. When prices do rise there will once again be a huge inventory of houses on the market

YardleyLabs
07-27-2009, 12:33 PM
My problem with that Jeff, is that MOST of the houses being bought, at least in my area, are not primary residences. This means they will do little to clear the existing market, because while they are not on the market right now most are holding them as a investment until prices come back up. When prices do rise there will once again be a huge inventory of houses on the market
Interesting. I wonder if that is regional or national. It certainly seems like a good time for RE speculators to step in since normal buyers are still having problems obtaining financing.

badbullgator
07-27-2009, 12:53 PM
I can’t back it with anything, but recently there was an auction and they said on the news that 80% were paid for with cash rather than financing. I know a couple of people that have bought 200K+ condos for 50-80K and paid cash as an investment. We have a large house inventory here but an even larger condo inventory. If you drive by any of the what seems like hundreds of new condo properties at night you can see that well over half of them are all empty. I often asked when the building boom was going on “who is going to live in all these condos?”

Goose
07-27-2009, 01:34 PM
Don't start singing 'Happy Days Are Here Again'. New home sales for June 2009 were the second worst on record for any June since 1963. Shiller says "homeowners are still delusional in their thinking that the housing market will recover" and "now is not the time to buy a single family home".

U3 unemployment is currently around 9.5%. Roubini has it going to 11% and Whitney has it going all the way to 13%!! If Whitney's right with her prediction of 13% unemployment then housing still has a ways to go before bottom.

Remember...structured finance is DEAD. We will never see another housing bubble.

badbullgator
07-27-2009, 01:53 PM
Don't start singing 'Happy Days Are Here Again'. New home sales for June 2009 were the second worst on record for any June since 1963. Shiller says "homeowners are still delusional in their thinking that the housing market will recover" and "now is not the time to buy a single family home".

U3 unemployment is currently around 9.5%. Roubini has it going to 11% and Whitney has it going all the way to 13%!! If Whitney's right with her prediction of 13% unemployment then housing still has a ways to go before bottom.

Remember...structured finance is DEAD. We will never see another housing bubble.


That is part of what I am getting at

Lisa Van Loo
07-27-2009, 01:53 PM
We will never see another housing bubble.

That may not be such a bad thing.

My neice sells RE in CA. Some of the sales she was finalizing before the collapse made me really, REALLY wonder where we were headed. Can a staff sergeant with a wife and 4 kinds REALLY afford $4000 mortgage payments? That's just one example. People were buying RE on a wing and a prayer, all pipe dream, no real sense of how money works, how they were going to make those ARM payments. "I want it, so I am going to get it." is not a very adult way to conduct one's life.

It has been painful, but hopefully, Americans have learned the hard lesson about being able to keep the promises one makes when borrowing $. For anything.

Lisa

txbadger
07-27-2009, 03:10 PM
With retail in double digit decline & about 70% of GDP is the consumer, I'd be careful.

dnf777
07-27-2009, 03:50 PM
Don't start singing 'Happy Days Are Here Again'. New home sales for June 2009 were the second worst on record for any June since 1963. Shiller says "homeowners are still delusional in their thinking that the housing market will recover" and "now is not the time to buy a single family home".

U3 unemployment is currently around 9.5%. Roubini has it going to 11% and Whitney has it going all the way to 13%!! If Whitney's right with her prediction of 13% unemployment then housing still has a ways to go before bottom.

Remember...structured finance is DEAD. We will never see another housing bubble.

We should have never seen the last housing bubble...irresponsible lending and borrowing, that is. I remember seeing on the news a couple (school teacher and paramedic) losing their house because their ARM adjusted up. This was on a $600,000 home. My mom was a teacher, and my dad worked for USS, and we couldn't SPELL 600,000!!! let alone borrow that much! (nor would he have wanted to)

For those folks who borrowed on the edge of their limits with ARMS.....tough cookies! Look for an affordable apartment now, and live the way millions of responsible Americans have.....within their means!

badbullgator
07-28-2009, 08:50 AM
I saw on the news last night that while housing sales had increaded it was actually the smallest increase since the 60's!

road kill
07-28-2009, 09:01 AM
I saw on the news last night that while housing sales had increaded it was actually the smallest increase since the 60's!

2 items I followed up on after reading this thread.

#1--One of my best friends builds custom homes in AZ, well, not so much lately. NO starts this month, the worst July since he has been in business. He has some homes under construction, and they are very nice (couple million $$'s). But nothing in the "mid-ranges" using his words.

#2--I work out with a custom home builder in WI. All he would say is that it's dead. I asked for statistics / %'s, he did not give me that, just not a good summer.

I don't have youtube links or a Snopes verification, these are just real people that are in the business.

stan b

badbullgator
07-28-2009, 09:54 AM
New home permits for 2008 in our area 2124, new home permits in 2005 30,415, 2006 20,916.
This year to date .....314!

K G
08-17-2009, 04:21 PM
Economy picking up?

NEW YORK (AP) -- The Dow Jones industrials rose back above 9,000 for the first time since early January.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WALL_STREET?SITE=FLPAP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-07-23-15-12-27

Well, it was nice while it lasted....:rolleyes:

kg

Bob Gutermuth
08-17-2009, 04:27 PM
The economy ain't gonna get better until Osama loses the election in 2012.

subroc
08-17-2009, 05:52 PM
Let me know when it reaches 14000...

K G
08-17-2009, 08:52 PM
The economy ain't gonna get better until Osama loses the election in 2012.

That process will start in 2010....mid-terms here we come....;-)

kg

Franco
08-17-2009, 11:09 PM
When that $219K house inflated to $450K who was President?



The policy of lending mortgage money to anyone began under Clinton. The party that continued to over-inflate the housing market by creating an artificial demand are the Democrats. The party that was asleep at the wheel were the Republicans.

Roger Perry
08-18-2009, 10:55 AM
In February 2000 the mortgage rates dropped to around 5%. Most everyone was either trying to refinance or purchase a house. The unnamed one was president at the time. in about 2005 the value of housing started to sky rocket and more people started to refinance, taking money out to pay bills. There were also a lot of C and D credit people buying houses before the price went up more. Most buyers and refinancers got into an adjustable rate mortgage which remained constant for 3 years and began to adjust. in 2008 when their rates increased $200 - $500 per month and the price of gas rose to $3.00-$4.00 per gallon people could no longer afford their mortgages.

K G
08-18-2009, 12:04 PM
Roger, with Google at the ready, there's simply no excuse for not knowing who was President and when. Clinton was President in Feb. 2000; Bush 43 was inaugurated on January 20, 2001.

Clinton deregulated Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in 1999 which opened the floodgates of money...unscrupulous lending practices followed...as Franco said, Bush will take the blame for being asleep at the wheel, but neither he nor his administration "set the table" for the disaster that we are now experiencing.

kg

Roger Perry
08-19-2009, 10:34 AM
Roger, with Google at the ready, there's simply no excuse for not knowing who was President and when. Clinton was President in Feb. 2000; Bush 43 was inaugurated on January 20, 2001.

Clinton deregulated Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in 1999 which opened the floodgates of money...unscrupulous lending practices followed...as Franco said, Bush will take the blame for being asleep at the wheel, but neither he nor his administration "set the table" for the disaster that we are now experiencing.

kg

Keith, In 2000 when people were refinancing they were refinancing for a lower rate not just to take cash out because the value of their houses did not inflate to outragous values.

I was talking about the adjustable rate mortgages adjusting in 3 to 5 years.

(Most buyers and refinancers got into an adjustable rate mortgage which remained constant for 3 years and began to adjust. in 2008 when their rates increased $200 - $500 per month and the price of gas rose to $3.00-$4.00 per gallon people could no longer afford their mortgages."

If you do the math when all the defaults on mortgages took place - 2007, & 2008. If you subtract 3 to 5 years from 2007 or 2008, you will come up with a time period where the price of housing rose to an incredible level. That is when most people that either bought or refinanced and took cash out to pay bills got into trouble.

The price of gas in 2000 was about $1.10 a gallon. Gas prices in 2007 & 2008 were well over $3.00 per gallon.
__________________

K G
08-19-2009, 11:05 AM
And you want to blame Bush 43 for ALL of this....right?

kg

Bob Gutermuth
08-19-2009, 11:14 AM
Right, blame George W Bush for a failed mortgage market that started under Slick Willy and continued under the 'leadership' of Chris Dodd and Barney Frank.

Roger Perry
08-19-2009, 08:04 PM
And you want to blame Bush 43 for ALL of this....right?

kg

All I know is the company I worked for went out of business in 2007. A lot more company's also went out of business along with hundreds of banks. Even with the lower prices in housing try to find a B or C lender, you can't, they are all out of business.

Roger Perry
08-19-2009, 08:05 PM
Right, blame George W Bush for a failed mortgage market that started under Slick Willy and continued under the 'leadership' of Chris Dodd and Barney Frank.


No Bob, It's Obama's fault.:rolleyes:

K G
08-19-2009, 08:24 PM
All I know is the company I worked for went out of business in 2007. A lot more company's also went out of business along with hundreds of banks. Even with the lower prices in housing try to find a B or C lender, you can't, they are all out of business.

My question still stands....

kg

Roger Perry
08-20-2009, 08:33 AM
My question still stands....

kg

Who else would be to blame? You cannot just put all the blame on Clinton after all the price of housing shot through the roof in 2005.

Raymond Little
08-20-2009, 12:11 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=ajBUTKShXZ7s

Don't worry Roger, it'll tank again after the commercial sector gathers steam.;)

Hope My A$$

K G
08-20-2009, 12:17 PM
Who else would be to blame? You cannot just put all the blame on Clinton after all the price of housing shot through the roof in 2005.

You think whatever you need to think to feel better about it all, Roger...:rolleyes:....I'm reminded of a Jethro Tull song here: "Living In The Past".....:cool:

I'm more concerned about digging out of the mess we're in, not creating NEW messes like BHO is obsessed with doing....PLEASE tell me where I'm wrong....PLEASE!!!!!!!

kg

Roger Perry
08-20-2009, 12:30 PM
You think whatever you need to think to feel better about it all, Roger...:rolleyes:....I'm reminded of a Jethro Tull song here: "Living In The Past".....:cool:

I'm more concerned about digging out of the mess we're in, not creating NEW messes like BHO is obsessed with doing....PLEASE tell me where I'm wrong....PLEASE!!!!!!!

kg

Ahhh, it must be Obama's fault. I knew we could put the blame somewhere.

K G
08-20-2009, 12:45 PM
You also have the option to tell me I'm WRONG...are you saying I'm not??? Who's driving the truck now, Roger? Who gave $2 billion to BRAZIL? Who is bound and determined to grind the automobile industry into the ground? Who wants us to all pay $8 for a gallon of gas and triple our electric utility costs? Who wants us ALL to have to wait for WEEKS/MONTHS to see a doctor???????

PLEASE don't say Bush 43....that would be disingenuous for even you....:cool:

kg

Roger Perry
08-20-2009, 03:03 PM
You asked about the auto industry. The auto industry was in deep trouble during the bush administration. Do you remember the auto executives that flew into Washington DC on their private jets?

CEO says Ford showing consistent profits
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2007/08/08/CEO-says-Ford-showing-consistent-profits/UPI-88031186624139/ (http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2007/08/08/CEO-says-Ford-showing-consistent-profits/UPI-88031186624139/)


WASHINGTON — General Motors expects to return to an annual profit in 2011 and estimates stock in the new company it will launch will be worth as much as $48 billion, according to estimates filed Thursday in its bankruptcy case.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-06-05-GM-profits_N.htm

K G
08-20-2009, 08:24 PM
You're saying BHO is "responsible" for the "ray of hope" (damn thin ray, that...) that the auto industry's PR flacks are sending out? :rolleyes: How do you like spending YOUR tax dollars so that someone else can buy a "fuel efficient" car that they will now drive MORE since it gets better gas mileage, thus rendering any fuel efficiency ineffective? $3 BILLION worth, Roger....but what's a billion or three among victims???

US automakers have been in trouble since Jimmy Carter was President, Roger....this TOO is not Bush 43's fault....sorry....:cool:

kg

dnf777
08-21-2009, 05:54 AM
You're saying BHO is "responsible" for the "ray of hope" (damn thin ray, that...) that the auto industry's PR flacks are sending out? :rolleyes: How do you like spending YOUR tax dollars so that someone else can buy a "fuel efficient" car that they will now drive MORE since it gets better gas mileage, thus rendering any fuel efficiency ineffective? $3 BILLION worth, Roger....but what's a billion or three among victims???

US automakers have been in trouble since Jimmy Carter was President, Roger....this TOO is not Bush 43's fault....sorry....:cool:

kg

My neighbor just traded in for a new car under CFC. They have a new baby girl, decent jobs, and can afford the new car. It has the newer straps for baby seats, and all the new safety features. I am happy for them. I'm also glad to see my tax dollars going to help GOOD people, rather than Iraqi infrastructure, Haliburton executives, or AIG luxury retreats. I'm also glad for the 1300 workers who have been recalled to GM, and may not lose their houses for now. I don't mind helping my fellow Americans out of a tough spot. I asked WWJD, and it was "help your neighbor".

Evan
08-21-2009, 07:50 AM
I'm also glad for the 1300 workers who have been recalled to GM, and may not lose their houses for now. I don't mind helping my fellow Americans out of a tough spot.And how much can you help them now that "Clunkers" is over with again? They're already out of money, the dealers aren't getting paid, and the auto workers are going to be laid off again because new car sales will now tank again. Nice plan. It has "Democrat" written all over it...and we tax payers are out another 3 billion dollars.

Thumb in the dyke regards...

Evan

K G
08-21-2009, 08:37 AM
Ummmm....that would be "dike," Evan....;-)....and I agree totally....

Mr. Freud is having a good laugh regards,

kg

Roger Perry
08-21-2009, 10:14 AM
Crist to Realtors: Florida economy is improving behind housing market


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2009/08/21/0821cristrealtors.html

W must be able to take credit for the economy begining to turn around. Woops, he is not president any more.

Dow (http://moneycentral.msn.com/index_quote/%24INDU) +137.32http://moneycentral.msn.com/inc/images/smup.gif+1.47%
9,487.37

K G
08-21-2009, 10:28 AM
The BIG difference here Roger is that I'm not trying to give Bush 43 credit...and BHO has done NOTHING that is causing the improvement in the housing market. Florida is the national poster state for a poor housing market...it has nowhere else to GO but UP. It's all a matter of TIMING, and YOU know it. Money/credit is still INCREDIBLY tight, unless, of course, Brazil needs a few billion....:rolleyes:

They're called "cycles" for a reason regards,

kg

Roger Perry
08-21-2009, 11:23 AM
Thumb in the dyke regards...

Evan


Ummmm....that would be "dike," Evan....;-)....and I agree totally....

Mr. Freud is having a good laugh regards,

kg

theoretically, one could stick a thumb in a dyke however other body parts are normally used.

Roger Perry
08-21-2009, 11:37 AM
The BIG difference here Roger is that I'm not trying to give Bush 43 credit...and BHO has done NOTHING that is causing the improvement in the housing market. Florida is the national poster state for a poor housing market...it has nowhere else to GO but UP. It's all a matter of TIMING, and YOU know it. Money/credit is still INCREDIBLY tight, unless, of course, Brazil needs a few billion....:rolleyes:

They're called "cycles" for a reason regards,

kg

Bernanke says US economy on cusp of recovery

JACKSON, Wyo. (AP) -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke declared Friday that the U.S. economy is on the verge of a long-awaited recovery after enduring a brutal recession and the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BERNANKE?SITE=FLPAP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-08-21-10-54-41


Oil tops $74 a barrel. Existing-home sales rise for 4th straight month.

K G
08-21-2009, 12:28 PM
Timing, Roger....T-I-M-I-N-G....doesn't matter who's in office....and you don't EVEN want me to put up BHO's latest approval ratings to further make my point.....:cool:

As for "dike" or "dyke," pick your answer based on Evan's original comment....


And how much can you help them now that "Clunkers" is over with again? They're already out of money, the dealers aren't getting paid, and the auto workers are going to be laid off again because new car sales will now tank again. Nice plan. It has "Democrat" written all over it...and we tax payers are out another 3 billion dollars.

kg

Steve Amrein
08-21-2009, 12:38 PM
Keith, In 2000 when people were refinancing they were refinancing for a lower rate not just to take cash out because the value of their houses did not inflate to outragous values.

I was talking about the adjustable rate mortgages adjusting in 3 to 5 years.

(Most buyers and refinancers got into an adjustable rate mortgage which remained constant for 3 years and began to adjust. in 2008 when their rates increased $200 - $500 per month and the price of gas rose to $3.00-$4.00 per gallon people could no longer afford their mortgages."

If you do the math when all the defaults on mortgages took place - 2007, & 2008. If you subtract 3 to 5 years from 2007 or 2008, you will come up with a time period where the price of housing rose to an incredible level. That is when most people that either bought or refinanced and took cash out to pay bills got into trouble.

The price of gas in 2000 was about $1.10 a gallon. Gas prices in 2007 & 2008 were well over $3.00 per gallon.
__________________


So its Bush's fault for folks over borrowing/extending themselves ?

If they dont have enough budget to withstand 20 - 40 bucks a week extra on gas bill and let the house slip into bankruptcy then I have to wonder about their intelligence. Maybe they could have turned of the cable and celly or even god forbid get a part time job.

Blame Bush for that... go peddle crazy someplace else. Bush did a lot of things I dont agree on but paaleeeez.

Thomas D
08-21-2009, 01:37 PM
What housing recovery? I have talked to 6-8 realtors in the past 10 days. Three types of sales are being made in Central Florida:
1. Houses priced to attract forst time homebuyers.
2. Short Sales
3. Foreclosures

Most say another 2 years until things start to turn around.

I like Charlie and he's a friend, but a little too positive on this one.

AmiableLabs
08-21-2009, 01:55 PM
I asked WWJD, and it was "help your neighbor".
But you didn't help your neighbor, the government did. That is why Christ said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..."

Jesus commands Christians and His church to take care of others. Not the government. I imagine He didn't want to share the credit.

Graduate Student in Theology Regards,

AmiableLabs
08-21-2009, 02:10 PM
The economy will completely return and I am willing to give Obama partly the credit. It is impossible to have the Fed pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the economy and not have a revitalization.

But we now have a multi-trillion dollar debt (not deficit) which was inconceivable a few short years ago. So we save the economy now and pass the bill onto our children and grandchildren. Sweet. :roll:

The economy needed a huge influx of dollars, that was a given. One philosophy, the liberal one, as I said is to print the money and pass on the bill to our grandkids. The other philosophy, the conservative one, is to slash the capital gains tax to spur investment, and then pay our own bills by cutting spending.

But elections have consequences. C est la vie.

Gerry Clinchy
08-21-2009, 02:14 PM
What housing recovery? I have talked to 6-8 realtors in the past 10 days. Three types of sales are being made in Central Florida:
1. Houses priced to attract forst time homebuyers.
2. Short Sales
3. Foreclosures

Most say another 2 years until things start to turn around.

I like Charlie and he's a friend, but a little too positive on this one.

Ditto here in Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania.

The banks are really doing a number on Realtors® with the short sales.

Yesterday, an agent was discussing the sale of a $545,000 home, with three lienholders. Evidently, first lien was going to be paid in full. Three days before settlement, the bank comes back to the agents & tells them that they will pay only 4% commission rather than the originally stated 5%. So, the bank squeezes another $5000 out of the deal by taking it out of the agents' pockets at the 11th hour. This is plain greed. The banks will loose much more taking the home to foreclosure. Why? Because they will get away with it. The agents have already put 2 to 3 mos of work into the deal, (not counting time before the actual agreement was written) and both the buyers and the sellers would be angry with the agents if they didn't allow the deal to go through.

Goose
08-21-2009, 03:05 PM
Like his predecessor, B-52 is a liar and an arsonist. "The U.S economy is on the cusp of a recovery"...that's a good one! Let's all go out and buy flat screen tv's!!! Maybe it's the Jackson Hole backdrop that has him so giddy. Perhaps next time they should hold a meeting in Detroit or even Jefferson County, Alabama to get a better understanding on the deep crap we're in because of him.

Go back over the last several months and add up the dollar amount of treasury auctions and then annualize that amount going forward. Tell me that's sustainable.

Or read the latest report from the MBA and tell me housing is headed in the right direction.

We live in Cuba now.

badbullgator
08-21-2009, 03:23 PM
Bernanke says US economy on cusp of recovery

JACKSON, Wyo. (AP) -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke declared Friday that the U.S. economy is on the verge of a long-awaited recovery after enduring a brutal recession and the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BERNANKE?SITE=FLPAP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-08-21-10-54-41


Oil tops $74 a barrel. Existing-home sales rise for 4th straight month.

Lets see today they are making a big deal out of home sales increasing 17%, with no mention of the fact that they sold 25% less houses than this time last year AND last year was very bad for home sales. It is still bad no matter how you cut it. Telling people it is not does not mean it is good.

badbullgator
08-21-2009, 03:27 PM
The economy will completely return and I am willing to give Obama partly the credit. It is impossible to have the Fed pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the economy and not have a revitalization.

But we now have a multi-trillion dollar debt (not deficit) which was inconceivable a few short years ago. So we save the economy now and pass the bill onto our children and grandchildren. Sweet. :roll:

The economy needed a huge influx of dollars, that was a given. One philosophy, the liberal one, as I said is to print the money and pass on the bill to our grandkids. The other philosophy, the conservative one, is to slash the capital gains tax to spur investment, and then pay our own bills by cutting spending.

But elections have consequences. C est la vie.

But very little of those hundreds of billions of dollars have found their way into the economy....makes you wonder just how bad we needed the porkulas after all....

AmiableLabs
08-21-2009, 04:13 PM
But very little of those hundreds of billions of dollars have found their way into the economy....makes you wonder just how bad we needed the porkulas after all....
You are mistaking the stimulus for the Fed increasing the amount of dollars in circulation.

I agree, only a small portion of the stimulus has been spent. It is time to stop spending it, if the economy has bottomed out and in the process of recovering!

Evan
08-21-2009, 07:07 PM
Thumb in the dyke regards...

Evan

theoretically, one could stick a thumb in a dyke however other body parts are normally used.I suppose anything's possible. ;) I don't spend enough time with either one for it to be an issue.

I am really interested in a rational answer from those devoted to being Obama apologists to my question, though. "And how much can you help them now that "Clunkers" is over with again? They're already out of money, the dealers aren't getting paid, and the auto workers are going to be laid off again because new car sales will now tank again. Nice plan. It has "Democrat" written all over it...and we tax payers are out another 3 billion dollars."

Evan

AmiableLabs
08-21-2009, 08:45 PM
Typically the news the White House does not want you to be informed about is released on Friday nights right before the nightly news so they have no time to report on it beyond anything superficially. This is called "the Friday dump" by those in the trade.

Tonight's Friday dump? The 10-year deficit has been raised from $7 trillion to $9 trillion.

The "debt" is how much we owe. The "deficit" is how much more we spend compared to bring in. That means our government will spend nine trillion dollars more than it makes over the next ten years. Two trillion dollars more than they thought three months ago. How much will they think three months from now?

Thank you Democrats. My grandchildren appreciate it.

Roger Perry
08-22-2009, 10:01 AM
I suppose anything's possible. ;) I don't spend enough time with either one for it to be an issue.

I am really interested in a rational answer from those devoted to being Obama apologists to my question, though. "And how much can you help them now that "Clunkers" is over with again? They're already out of money, the dealers aren't getting paid, and the auto workers are going to be laid off again because new car sales will now tank again. Nice plan. It has "Democrat" written all over it...and we tax payers are out another 3 billion dollars."

Evan



I guess we will have to wait and see what happenes to the auto industry. It doesn't do any good to speculate one way or the other. However, in 2008 Ford was on the verge of going bankrupt now, they are showing a profit.



I heard someone talking on a local radio station (not a political station) that he was shopping for a new Ford Focus and it was hard to find on the lots of the dealerships he visited.

Evan
08-23-2009, 07:52 PM
I guess we will have to wait and see what happenes to the auto industry. It doesn't do any good to speculate one way or the other. However, in 2008 Ford was on the verge of going bankrupt now, they are showing a profit.



I heard someone talking on a local radio station (not a political station) that he was shopping for a new Ford Focus and it was hard to find on the lots of the dealerships he visited.Actually, I believe Ford was the one car company that turned down the so-called "stimulus" money, and also ended up being the only one standing on its own legs, financially. It's encouraging for sure.

It makes sense to me that this little shot in the arm from the now-defunct cash for clunkers program was of little long term value. But I'm willing to wait and see. I just wonder how it could possibly be sustainable. And if it cannot be sustained, won't those auto workers be right back at home soon?

Evan

Uncle Bill
08-26-2009, 06:11 PM
Am I the only one that suspects the CFC program will bring about lots of repos? After all, we already are hearing from the folks that 'lived' in some of those clunkers...totally confused when they went to license the vehicle that they had to pay tax on that $4500 freebie also. Face it folks, the BHO koolaide crowd were sure their problems were over when their messiah came to power. You think THEY are suddenly going to be responsible for keeping up those payments.

So here's a pole for you...When will the repos begin? Nov, Dec, not 'til 2010?

What percentage will be repo'd? 10%...20%...30%...etc., etc.

BTW, FWIW...be ready for some form of crash in October. As the Dow continues to climb, if you don't have "stops" locked in, and have your basic principle out already...you are gonna get skinned!

Not sure if this October crash will be the end-all for the next decade, but it will be the beginning of the end.

UB

K G
08-26-2009, 08:42 PM
BTW, FWIW...be ready for some form of crash in October. As the Dow continues to climb, if you don't have "stops" locked in, and have your basic principle out already...you are gonna get skinned!

Not sure if this October crash will be the end-all for the next decade, but it will be the beginning of the end.

UB

Upon what do you base this prognostication, UB?

kg

JDogger
08-26-2009, 08:50 PM
From a fwd email or maybe on


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/JDoggger/faux_news1.jpg

JDogger
08-26-2009, 09:02 PM
My mistake, Bonner. I shoulda knowed. The only people I know who cite Bonner more than Bill are a couple of left wing bloggers who also cite James Kuntsler and his apocalyptic views.

JD

K G
08-27-2009, 11:54 AM
C'mon UB...don't leave us hanging again...

kg

Roger Perry
08-27-2009, 02:54 PM
Market update
Index

Last
Change


% change
•DJIA (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/research/msnbc/newsnap.asp?Symbol=$INDU)9600.43+56.91http://www.msnbc.msn.com/images/msnbc/pfp/arrowUp.gif+0.60%• NASDAQ (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/research/msnbc/newsnap.asp?Symbol=$COMPX)2027.55+3.12http://www.msnbc.msn.com/images/msnbc/pfp/arrowUp.gif+0.15%• S&P 500 (http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/research/msnbc/newsnap.asp?Symbol=$INX)1032.35+4.23http://www.msnbc.msn.com/images/msnbc/pfp/arrowUp.gif+0.41%
July new home sales jump 9.6 percent

Durable goods rise last month by largest amount in two years


More good news came on the housing front. New U.S. home sales jumped 9.6 percent in July, a fourth straight monthly gain that beat analysts’ expectations.

Steve Hester
08-28-2009, 08:41 AM
That may not be such a bad thing.

My neice sells RE in CA. Some of the sales she was finalizing before the collapse made me really, REALLY wonder where we were headed. Can a staff sergeant with a wife and 4 kinds REALLY afford $4000 mortgage payments? That's just one example. People were buying RE on a wing and a prayer, all pipe dream, no real sense of how money works, how they were going to make those ARM payments. "I want it, so I am going to get it." is not a very adult way to conduct one's life.

It has been painful, but hopefully, Americans have learned the hard lesson about being able to keep the promises one makes when borrowing $. For anything.

Lisa

Yep, and this philosophy of getting everyone into a home, whether they could pay for it or not started in the Clinton administration.

Uncle Bill
08-28-2009, 09:51 AM
C'mon UB...don't leave us hanging again...

kg


MANY of the 'contrarian' types are predicting this October "bloodbath" that will wipe out the DOW. To quote one from the Wall Street Underground: "For those who are hanging their hopes on a recovery abd continuing rally, the party is about to end. The bloodbath will wipe out the masses...just like it has every time we've faced an economy like this."

History has many October 'surprises' we can study. All I'm saying is if you've been riding the 2500 point rally, it would be wise to have your stop losses in place, and wiser to have skimmed off your primary investment. Then you'll only be losing the 'profits', not your savings.

Note to JD...not sure where your 'blogging' takes you, but to call Bonner a 'left winger' and place him in the company of a Kunstler, says more about your simplistic way of being easily misled than anything I could conjure up.

But like so many in your camp, it's no wonder you subscribe to everything your leadership has to offer. You have no fear of being a subject. Freedoms have no value for you. You and your Democrat politicians don't need much in the way of healthcare...theres not much to fix. And when there is a fix needed, any doctor can do it, since no brain is involved, and the head and ass are interchangeable.

UB

Just for your edification and amusement, here's a little Bonnerism:



Every day, here at The Daily Reckoning, we give you information on the latest trends and events in financial markets. But everybody has access to the same information. And what is information, anyway? What is it worth? What does it mean?

For thousands of years, people exchanged information. Then, it must have been a different kind of information...things we can barely imagine...about where animals were getting their water...about where to find seeds and how to avoid sickness...how to prepare for winter...and how to fend off wild animals. Then, the dominion of the human species was not so sure. There were saber-toothed tigers, lions, wolves, even mastodons...giant sloths... Early man was probably as often prey as hunter. He had to be on his toes to survive.

Information was one thing. But there was more. He needed wisdom...and technology... as well as facts. He had to learn to store food for winter as well as beat back attacks by wild beasts. He had to know how to make cloaks out of animal skins...and how to stock firewood for a rainy, snowy winter...and how to find shelter.

We imagine tribes sat around the campfire and told stories. The stories reported victories and defeats...disasters and triumphs...heroes and enemies. But the stories were more than just information: they carried lessons...moral lessons...about what to do and what not to do.

That is the tradition to which we are heirs here at The Daily Reckoning. We pass along information: but without a story, the information is just noise.

Our story is the story of the seasons. It's the story of heroes and villains...of fatal flaws and inevitable disasters.

The common flaw is an old one. The Greeks couldn't seem to tell a story without mentioning it. 'Hubris'...the kind of pride that goeth before a fall...the arrogance that leads people to think they can get away with something... that they not only can know their fates...but that they can control them.

Today, Ben Bernanke is our tragic hero. His flaw is as obvious as his challenge. He thinks he can stop the world from turning.... stop the seasons...avoid the hard, correcting winter by tempting the sun with bailouts, stimulus and cheap credit. His arrogance is an affront to the gods.

The old tales tell us what will happen. He will fail. But when...how? That is a different story. It is the story future generations must tell. We must live it.


Bill Bonner
The Daily Reckoning

K G
08-28-2009, 10:00 AM
Well, they've sure got NOTHING to lose by predicting the worst...

kg

Roger Perry
08-28-2009, 10:12 AM
Yep, and this philosophy of getting everyone into a home, whether they could pay for it or not started in the Clinton administration.

Sorry, house prices rose beyond belief in Bush's 2nd term. The crash in the economy was in the Bush 2nd term.

I will ask again, is there anyone out there who was better off at the end of 2008 than they were at the end of 2000?

Uncle Bill
08-28-2009, 10:21 AM
Sorry, house prices rose beyond belief in Bush's 2nd term. The crash in the economy was in the Bush 2nd term.

I will ask again, is there anyone out there who was better off at the end of 2008 than they were at the end of 2000?


Why not make that the end of 2009 , Roger???


UB

subroc
08-28-2009, 10:28 AM
...I will ask again, is there anyone out there who was better off at the end of 2008 than they were at the end of 2000?

Me.

My job was re-classified and I was promoted twice.

Uncle Bill
08-28-2009, 10:36 AM
Well, they've sure got NOTHING to lose by predicting the worst...

kg


That maybe true, but YOU and others will, if you aren't at least slighty concerned about past history in these matters.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, so I'm not the guy to be doing any 'predicting'...I just have read some of the history on the subject, and have been skinned badly when I didn't follow that message.

The "they" you refer to in a sense DO have something to lose...their reputation for providing advice. I realize the Walls Street whores and MSP are all giddy about what's happening to the DOW, which is such an obvious "fall-on-the-sword" for Obama. Like the DOW didn't perform during GWB's time in office.

Try going back to the 'dot-com' era of Clinton, (where I lost my azz many times over), and you can't recall the MSP and talking heads on the cable market channels this giddy.

Furthermore, should all the "investors" (which we all know is a 'gambler') remain *fully invested*, as the WS crowd refer to it, I could give a FRA. It will be just more fodder for the P&M crowd to wail about, when history repeatrs itself.

UB

JDogger
08-28-2009, 10:47 AM
As I have long suspected Bill, yours is more a pathology than a philosophy.

JD

K G
08-28-2009, 10:47 AM
"Past history..." I love that! ;-)

Here's one that agrees with you....http://www.cnbc.com/id/32593848

It's the nerves that worry me the most. Everyone seems to be waiting for the other shoe to drop. Job loss has slowed but not ended. Houses are selling but the majority have been on the market for over a year and are sold at panic prices or are foreclosures, which helps investors but not necessarily consumers (if sales at Home Depot and Lowe's increase, I'll feel better about it).

And Roger, frankly, no one in their right mind gives two hoots about how they were at the end of '08 vs. how they were at the end of '00....it's just not relevant right now, and you are embarrassing yourself by continuing to push a focus on the past rather than facing the stark reality of the present. Get over it....

kg

Roger Perry
08-28-2009, 12:02 PM
Why not make that the end of 2009 , Roger???


UB

Because we are not at the end of 2009 yet.

Roger Perry
08-28-2009, 12:07 PM
"Past history..." I love that! ;-)


And Roger, frankly, no one in their right mind gives two hoots about how they were at the end of '08 vs. how they were at the end of '00....it's just not relevant right now, and you are embarrassing yourself by continuing to push a focus on the past rather than facing the stark reality of the present. Get over it....

kg

Isn't one of the most asked question regarding presidents "are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?"

You cannot critique something until after it is over.

Roger Perry
08-28-2009, 12:22 PM
Was Clinton responsible for the Financial Crisis?

By Stefan on September


The basis for the argument is that in 1992, Congress that Fannie and Freddie increase their purchases of mortgages for low-income and medium-income borrowers (I believe through a 20 year old law called the Community Reinvestment Act). Operating under that requirement, Fannie Mae, in particular, was more aggressive and creative in stimulating minority gains. It aimed extensive advertising campaigns at minorities that explain how to buy a home and opened three dozen local offices to encourage lenders to serve these markets. Most importantly, Fannie Mae agreed to buy more loans with very low down payments–or with mortgage payments that represent an unusually high percentage of a buyer’s income. That made banks willing to lend to lower-income families they once might have rejected.

It was a mistake to credit Fannie and Freddie for investing in subprime securities toward their affordable housing goals. That's on the Clinton administration in a general, theoretical way. But it was under Bush when the practice began to threaten the economy in a very real way and it was allowed to continue and even encouraged. It was also a mistake to expand the program after 2000 and that is all on Bush's HUD crew. However, there was a large push among individual, mostly Democratic members of Congress in 2004, the last time the HUD strategies were revisited (prior to this year) but to blame them (or the CBC) for the problems when they had so little power seems a bit of a stretch.

http://www.blogfordemocracy.org/2008/09/was_clinton_responsible_for_th.html

road kill
08-28-2009, 12:23 PM
Sorry, house prices rose beyond belief in Bush's 2nd term. The crash in the economy was in the Bush 2nd term.

I will ask again, is there anyone out there who was better off at the end of 2008 than they were at the end of 2000?

Me.....and the guy who sells you what ever you are smokin'!!

Marvin S
08-28-2009, 12:43 PM
I will ask again, is there anyone out there who was better off at the end of 2008 than they were at the end of 2000?

YES - but I didn't participate in the dot.com's other than ELNK. While many were losing 60-80% of their hard earned wealth, based on the advice of some so called expert, I was doing quite well. I would say, well enough that people quit asking me! :D ;-)

Anyone who is basing anything they do on someone's advice needs to understand it's nothing but a SWAG, though some do put more thought into their SWAG than others.

:confused: Just remember, the stock market goes up & the stock market goes down, but it is the only way to maintain some sort of inflation hedge for the little guy. RE will do that if purchased right, but there are maintenance costs & it is liilquid.

Mike Noel
08-28-2009, 01:13 PM
Sorry, house prices rose beyond belief in Bush's 2nd term. The crash in the economy was in the Bush 2nd term.

I will ask again, is there anyone out there who was better off at the end of 2008 than they were at the end of 2000?

Me, me, me, me....sorry, had to make the message at least 10 characters.

Roger Perry
08-28-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm glad a FEW people out there are doing better, most are not. Just ask those that had their houses foreclosed on or out of work.

I guess the right will never admit when they are wrong or to blame because it is soooooo much easier to place the blame on someone else.

Former Republican
Regards

K G
08-28-2009, 02:30 PM
I'm glad a FEW people out there are doing better, most are not. Just ask those that had their houses foreclosed on or out of work.

I guess the right will never admit when they are wrong or to blame because it is soooooo much easier to place the blame on someone else.

Former Republican
Regards


Thanks for making it more than ABUNDANTLY clear what's important to you....BLAME. Since you're a former Republican (thank God for small favors...), who have YOU apologized to for voting for Bush 43?

I don't really care, myself...but the question follows after your statement above. BTW, what are you taking for the ulcer that you MUST have????

Prevacid regards, :cool:

kg

Roger Perry
08-28-2009, 02:40 PM
Thanks for making it more than ABUNDANTLY clear what's important to you....BLAME. Since you're a former Republican (thank God for small favors...), who have YOU apologized to for voting for Bush 43?

I don't really care, myself...but the question follows after your statement above. BTW, what are you taking for the ulcer that you MUST have????

Prevacid regards, :cool:

kg

I did not vote for Bush 43 so I do not have to apologize to anyone for that. However, I voted for his father who I thought was a very good president and for all the republican presidents and those running for president before him.

Former Republican,
Regards

Marvin S
08-28-2009, 08:01 PM
I did not vote for Bush 43 so I do not have to apologize to anyone for that. However, I voted for his father who I thought was a very good president and for all the republican presidents and those running for president before him.

You voted for Barry Goldwater??? :cool:

Roger Perry
10-01-2009, 01:29 PM
Pending home sales jump 6.4 percent

Seventh straight month of gains is highest since March 2007

K G
10-01-2009, 09:38 PM
The Dow Jones industrial average tumbled 203 points Thursday, while all the major indexes fell between 2 percent and 3 percent. The slide intensified in the final minutes of the day, signaling that traders were growing nervous ahead of the government's key September jobs report due before the opening bell Friday.


U.S. sales of cars and light trucks fell to just under 746,000 in September, down 41 percent from August.


Discouraging new reports on unemployment and manufacturing Thursday reinforced worries that job losses and meager factory output will make for a weak recovery as the nation climbs out of the worst recession in decades.

Foreclosures are still a GREAT deal, and with more of them on market now than ever in our history, the real estate market has nowhere else to go but up....

Reality regards,

kg

luvmylabs23139
10-01-2009, 10:32 PM
Pending home sales jump 6.4 percent



That $8,000 redistribution of wealth, socialism, is about to run out. People are racing to get their gov't handout!

K G
05-21-2010, 08:24 AM
Thought this thread was worth revisiting since we're approaching the 9,000 level again....:rolleyes:

k g

ducknwork
05-26-2010, 12:29 PM
Thank you Captain Obvious! Seriously, who didn't see this coming?:rolleyes:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37340069/ns/business-real_estate/

Gerry Clinchy
05-26-2010, 02:22 PM
Thank you Captain Obvious! Seriously, who didn't see this coming?:rolleyes:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37340069/ns/business-real_estate/


The great numbers for March & April are still being touted ... wait till they see May and June numbers.

In a way, one would have to say the housing market may have been saturated during the bubble. Everyone who wanted to buy a house pretty much did so ... whether qualified or not. Then millions lost, or are losing those homes, either due to job loss or mortgages they couldn't afford even with keeping their jobs. Either way, those millions of people now have their credit in the toilet bowl & won't be buying again for a while.

There is high demand for rentals ... but landlords are looking for good credit reports as well ... or larger security deposits.

Values continue to drop. The appraisers are over-compensating making the prices drop faster. That will lead to more short sales; more foreclosures.

road kill
06-07-2010, 07:54 PM
Anyone got any idea how that market is doin'??

It's kickin' boo tay ain't it??

Nice job on the economy!!
It bees a boomin!!:rolleyes:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/quotes/dow-jones-industrial-average/%24indu/dji



rk

Henry V
06-09-2010, 01:10 PM
Anyone got any idea how that market is doin'??

It's kickin' boo tay ain't it??

Nice job on the economy!!
It bees a boomin!!:rolleyes:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/quotes/dow-jones-industrial-average/%24indu/dji
Since you asked...
10029.77 +89.79‎ (0.90%‎) Jun 9 1:06pm ET
Open: 9941.57
High: 10065.14
Low: 9941.57
Volume: 86,329,023
Avg Vol: 200,425,000
Sorry this response was a couple days late.

You may also be interested in this jobs report:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-06-08-jobopenings_N.htm


rk[/QUOTE]

road kill
06-09-2010, 01:29 PM
I have seen White House jobs reports.

hahahahahaha!!!!:D
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

Are you honestly trying to claim things are all good now?

Stop.....your killin' me!!!!:D




rk

Henry V
06-09-2010, 05:20 PM
I have seen White House jobs reports.

hahahahahaha!!!!:D
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

Are you honestly trying to claim things are all good now?

Stop.....your killin' me!!!!:D

rk
What white house jobs report? The AP story cited the monthly Dept. of Labor report.
Who said anything about things being "all good"?
Now, if you want me to post some 40 or 50 quotes from around here about everything being "all bad" I certainly could fulfill your request.

ducknwork
06-10-2010, 07:32 AM
Since you asked...
10029.77 +89.79‎ (0.90%‎) Jun 9 1:06pm ET
Open: 9941.57
High: 10065.14
Low: 9941.57
Volume: 86,329,023
Avg Vol: 200,425,000
Sorry this response was a couple days late.

You may also be interested in this jobs report:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-06-08-jobopenings_N.htm


rk[/QUOTE]


You picked an awesome time of day to give a stock quote! BTW, it closed around 9900.

Henry V
06-10-2010, 09:56 AM
You picked an awesome time of day to give a stock quote! BTW, it closed around 9900.
Totally random timing. It is over 10K now again (jobless numbers are down, unemployment claims are down, and continuous unemployment claims dropped more than in 14 months). Big deal.

It is good to see that we can count on this thread being resurrected when there is a market dip as sure as you can count on a climate change thread whenever there is a big snowstorm or a colder than average day or two (there's a soft ball for you Hew).

depittydawg
06-10-2010, 10:10 AM
Since you asked...
10029.77 +89.79‎ (0.90%‎) Jun 9 1:06pm ET
Open: 9941.57
High: 10065.14
Low: 9941.57
Volume: 86,329,023
Avg Vol: 200,425,000
Sorry this response was a couple days late.

You may also be interested in this jobs report:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-06-08-jobopenings_N.htm


rk[/QUOTE]

It amazes me that the conservatives actually have the balls to question Democrats on the Economy after they leaders and their policies crashed the whole system last time they were in control of things... Then they chastise the Democrats for not wanting to make the same mistakes the Republicans made for the last 15 years... Go figure.

road kill
06-10-2010, 12:02 PM
It amazes me that the conservatives actually have the balls to question Democrats on the Economy after they leaders and their policies crashed the whole system last time they were in control of things... Then they chastise the Democrats for not wanting to make the same mistakes the Republicans made for the last 15 years... Go figure.[/QUOTE]

You want to borrow my shovel??

You know, sand around the head and all??

2 words.....Barney Frank.
2 more......Fannie Mae
2 more......Freddie Mac

You will never admit what blew up and it wasn't Bush.




rk

badbullgator
08-25-2010, 10:16 AM
Here we go again????

Marvin S
08-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Here we go again????

Tougher to find bargains this time - everyone has had time to evaluate in this type of market. But businesses are sitting on large amounts of usable assets, just not spending as they fear the direction of the Chicago thuggery :(.

Roger Perry
08-25-2010, 01:17 PM
It amazes me that the conservatives actually have the balls to question Democrats on the Economy after they leaders and their policies crashed the whole system last time they were in control of things... Then they chastise the Democrats for not wanting to make the same mistakes the Republicans made for the last 15 years... Go figure.

You want to borrow my shovel??

You know, sand around the head and all??

2 words.....Barney Frank.
2 more......Fannie Mae
2 more......Freddie Mac

You will never admit what blew up and it wasn't Bush.




rk[/quote]

Just had to bring up BUSH again huh? Of course his 8 years did not hurt the country at all.:rolleyes:

road kill
08-25-2010, 01:19 PM
You want to borrow my shovel??

You know, sand around the head and all??

2 words.....Barney Frank.
2 more......Fannie Mae
2 more......Freddie Mac

You will never admit what blew up and it wasn't Bush.




rk


Just had to bring up BUSH again huh? Of course his 8 years did not hurt the country at all.:rolleyes:


Hey, genius, that post was from June 10th!!


Hahahahaha!!!!!!

And nothing Bush did compares to;

Barney Frank
Fannie Mae
Fredie Mac

NOTHING!!;-)


RK

Roger Perry
08-25-2010, 01:36 PM
Hey, genius, that post was from June 10th!!


Hahahahaha!!!!!!

And nothing Bush did compares to;

Barney Frank
Fannie Mae
Fredie Mac

NOTHING!!;-)


RK

How about starting 2 wars.;-)

badbullgator
08-25-2010, 01:43 PM
How about starting 2 wars.;-)


Much better than Barney Fredie and Fannie

Roger Perry
08-25-2010, 02:40 PM
Much better than Barney Fredie and Fannie


If Bush did not like the way Freddie and Fannie were run he had 8 years to chang it and 6 years with a republican congress to change it and did not do a thing.

Julie R.
08-25-2010, 02:45 PM
Psssst! Hey Roger! Just heard on the news that home sales dropped again in July, the biggest drop in 10 years. Hmmm, let's see, Bush has been gone what, almost 2 years? How's that Obomonomics working out for your real estate career?

dnf777
08-25-2010, 02:54 PM
Psssst! Hey Roger! Just heard on the news that home sales dropped again in July, the biggest drop in 10 years. Hmmm, let's see, Bush has been gone what, almost 2 years? How's that Obomonomics working out for your real estate career?


Great news! that means less training grounds will be bulldozed and developed into housing divisions!

badbullgator
08-25-2010, 03:00 PM
Great news! that means less training grounds will be bulldozed and developed into housing divisions!

No they already did that to everything here, now they are just empty houses on former training grounds

Julie R.
08-25-2010, 03:10 PM
Well....even though my income took a nose dive I do have to agree that keeping the developers at bay is one benefit of Obomonomics and the depression. At the height of the boom my farm was assessed at nearly $2 million (because of the land, not because of any structures that existed then or now!) and I was paying over $12,000 a year in property taxes, up from $3500 previously. And $12,000 was with land use! Never mind that farmland does not crowd public schools, demand free medical services, paved roads, sewers, or community centers with skateboard parks, soccer fields and pools. I get mad every time I look at the gleaming and empty new county park surrounded by soccer fields that my taxes paid for, so all the people that want to move to the "country" can have their city conveniences. I'm thrilled my land value has declined, so maybe I can keep it instead of needing to sell it to a developer because I can't afford the taxes.

troy schwab
08-25-2010, 03:48 PM
The carpet is about to be pulled out from under the DOW...... hang on folks. The treasury yields are way out of whack, in comparison to the DOW. One of these is a very stable economic indicator. Care to guess which one?

Based on treasury price comparison, the DOW should be at or around 7000....... IT WILL CORRECT ITSELF. It may take years, or maybe someone just calls in their cash...... We sure are putting a lot of heat on Japan lately.... maybe they call it in. This is gonna suck.

Gerry Clinchy
08-25-2010, 08:14 PM
The great numbers for March & April are still being touted ... wait till they see May and June numbers.



Quoting myself (post #99 on 5/26/10)

I was off on when the spit would hit the fan because they extended the settlement date for those properties that were under agreement by 4/30 that had to settle by 6/30. The settlement date was extended until Sept. so that new construction and the short sale agreements (which take a long time to close) would not be shut down.

Sales were expected to be down 13.2%, but were down over 25%. The worst month for home sales since 1995. Inventory is over 12 months of supply at the current rate of sales.

Maybe now the market can find its bottom, not some artificially designed level. When prices get reasonable enough, people will start buying again.

dnf777
08-25-2010, 08:21 PM
What I hope comes from all this recent economic down turn and dismal employment situation, is that WE correct our BEHAVIOR. When markets "correct", numbers change, money is made or lost, etc... but if our recent behavior continues as it was, nothing is truly "corrected", and we will continue to suffer.

I hope when the economy recovers, couples making a combined 100k will not buy 400k homes, BMWs and EthanAllen furniture for the whole house on credit. Hopefully credit cards will be cut up, and loans will be paid down and not taken out so quickly. Home equity loans should be for true emergencies or education. Not for a new deck or pool. IOW, we will get back to personal financial responsibility that our grandparents adopted after the depression.

THAT would be a true correction.

depittydawg
08-25-2010, 10:00 PM
So, this is socialism? Wait, did socialism cause the market to adjust? Hmmm.

Looks to me like irrational exuberance and virtually free credit for many years led to a market based collapse that was inevitable. Government intervention has provided some stability (e.g. a backstop) which has helped and will result in an economy that will slowly recover.

Deregulation of the financial markets brought to you by The Republican congress and Bill Clinton gave us the mess we now wallow in. Of course the looting by the Bush administration and the ignorance of the Obama administration haven't helped either.

depittydawg
08-25-2010, 10:04 PM
Well....even though my income took a nose dive I do have to agree that keeping the developers at bay is one benefit of Obomonomics and the depression. At the height of the boom my farm was assessed at nearly $2 million (because of the land, not because of any structures that existed then or now!) and I was paying over $12,000 a year in property taxes, up from $3500 previously. And $12,000 was with land use! Never mind that farmland does not crowd public schools, demand free medical services, paved roads, sewers, or community centers with skateboard parks, soccer fields and pools. I get mad every time I look at the gleaming and empty new county park surrounded by soccer fields that my taxes paid for, so all the people that want to move to the "country" can have their city conveniences. I'm thrilled my land value has declined, so maybe I can keep it instead of needing to sell it to a developer because I can't afford the taxes.

12000 a year in taxes on a 2 million dollar place... Sounds like your taxes are a hell of a lot lower than the folks that are paying for the services you mentioned that you don't use. Personally, I like paved roads.

depittydawg
08-25-2010, 10:07 PM
The carpet is about to be pulled out from under the DOW...... hang on folks. The treasury yields are way out of whack, in comparison to the DOW. One of these is a very stable economic indicator. Care to guess which one?

Based on treasury price comparison, the DOW should be at or around 7000....... IT WILL CORRECT ITSELF. It may take years, or maybe someone just calls in their cash...... We sure are putting a lot of heat on Japan lately.... maybe they call it in. This is gonna suck.

You related to Les?

depittydawg
08-25-2010, 10:12 PM
You will never admit what blew up and it wasn't Bush.

rk[/QUOTE]

Leadership matters. When you put a moron at the head of the cart, it upsets the horses.

ducknwork
08-26-2010, 07:07 AM
What I hope comes from all this recent economic down turn and dismal employment situation, is that WE correct our BEHAVIOR. When markets "correct", numbers change, money is made or lost, etc... but if our recent behavior continues as it was, nothing is truly "corrected", and we will continue to suffer.

I hope when the economy recovers, couples making a combined 100k will not buy 400k homes, BMWs and EthanAllen furniture for the whole house on credit. Hopefully credit cards will be cut up, and loans will be paid down and not taken out so quickly. Home equity loans should be for true emergencies or education. Not for a new deck or pool. IOW, we will get back to personal financial responsibility that our grandparents adopted after the depression.

THAT would be a true correction.

This is why our economy went down the crapper. Not Bush, not Clinton or Obama, but personal (and corporate) greed and financial irresponsibility. When millions can't pay for the stuff they bought to keep up with the Jones', there's gonna be a problem. I don't think that many people have learned their lesson. After all, we 'deserve' big houses, new cars, and flat screen tv's, right?:rolleyes:

subroc
08-26-2010, 07:36 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703632304575451502211231456.html

Gerry Clinchy
08-26-2010, 11:03 AM
This is why our economy went down the crapper. Not Bush, not Clinton or Obama, but personal (and corporate) greed and financial irresponsibility. When millions can't pay for the stuff they bought to keep up with the Jones', there's gonna be a problem. I don't think that many people have learned their lesson. After all, we 'deserve' big houses, new cars, and flat screen tv's, right?


There is definitely truth in there. Selling real estate I was up close to the housing bubble ... or as I called it, "the feeding frenzy".

The banking industry "enabled" the consumers to run amuck, but they didn't create the propensity that was already present in human nature.

Goose
08-26-2010, 11:40 AM
What I hope comes from all this recent economic down turn and dismal employment situation, is that WE correct our BEHAVIOR. When markets "correct", numbers change, money is made or lost, etc... but if our recent behavior continues as it was, nothing is truly "corrected", and we will continue to suffer.

I hope when the economy recovers, couples making a combined 100k will not buy 400k homes, BMWs and EthanAllen furniture for the whole house on credit. Hopefully credit cards will be cut up, and loans will be paid down and not taken out so quickly. Home equity loans should be for true emergencies or education. Not for a new deck or pool. IOW, we will get back to personal financial responsibility that our grandparents adopted after the depression.

THAT would be a true correction.

Why do you think the economy is going to recover? Actually, the question's open to anyone.

ducknwork
08-26-2010, 11:49 AM
The banking industry "enabled" the consumers to run amuck, but they didn't create the propensity that was already present in human nature.

Ultimately, it's not the banks' fault that consumers were buying things that they knew they could not afford.

At one point a few years ago, my wife and I were interested in buying a house but did not know what price range to look in for the payment we could afford. I called Countrywide Loans to see what they would say. They asked about my income and various other things and then told me that I needed to look in a certain price range to get that payment. I knew that they were out of their mind for telling me I could afford a house that expensive and I didn't hesitate to tell them that. BUT how many people called them and said 'Great! We're gonna get a HUGE new house!' and then found out the payment wasn't what they thought it would be and they couldn't pay for their house?

dnf777
08-26-2010, 11:56 AM
Why do you think the economy is going to recover? Actually, the question's open to anyone.

Everything is cyclical. Hopefully, it will recover while we're young enough to enjoy it! As the world grows smaller, and economies merge with the help of international markets, very big container ships, and the internet, we WILL see a leveling of standards of living around the world. Already ours has dropped, India and China's has risen. The world will reach a new economic "equilibrium", and we may not like it. Not much we can do about it anymore though.

Sabireley
08-26-2010, 12:16 PM
12000 a year in taxes on a 2 million dollar place... Sounds like your taxes are a hell of a lot lower than the folks that are paying for the services you mentioned that you don't use. Personally, I like paved roads.

The tax rate is the same for everybody. Most people pay much less than $12k per year in real estate tax (in rural Virginia). Land use is not the great tax shelter it used to be. They just jack up the value of the land your house sits on to make up the difference.

Goose
08-26-2010, 12:28 PM
Everything is cyclical. Hopefully, it will recover while we're young enough to enjoy it! As the world grows smaller, and economies merge with the help of international markets, very big container ships, and the internet, we WILL see a leveling of standards of living around the world. Already ours has dropped, India and China's has risen. The world will reach a new economic "equilibrium", and we may not like it. Not much we can do about it anymore though.

That's it? Everything's cyclical? Says who?

aandw
08-26-2010, 12:56 PM
Everything is cyclical. Hopefully, it will recover while we're young enough to enjoy it! As the world grows smaller, and economies merge with the help of international markets, very big container ships, and the internet, we WILL see a leveling of standards of living around the world. Already ours has dropped, India and China's has risen. The world will reach a new economic "equilibrium", and we may not like it. Not much we can do about it anymore though.

if that is the case why is this congress & admin spending all this money?
i do agree with this comment, BTW.
i think the previous and current admin should not have bailed out anybody or done a stimulus bill.

road kill
08-26-2010, 05:03 PM
What a great day!!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703959704575453073986194784.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

9985.81 -74.25!!!

I am amazed out how the economy is soaring!!


RK

Franco
08-26-2010, 05:27 PM
Maybe we need to spend another TRILLION on government stimulus!:(

The first TRILLION obviously wasn't enough.:rolleyes:

road kill
08-26-2010, 05:31 PM
Maybe we need to spend another TRILLION on government stimulus!:(

The first TRILLION obviously wasn't enough.:rolleyes:

You been talkin' to Joe??

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2013683,00.html

"But in the words of Vice President Joe Biden, Obama's effusive Recovery Act point man, "Now the fun stuff starts!" The "fun stuff," about one-sixth of the total cost, is an all-out effort to exploit the crisis to make green energy, green building and green transportation real; launch green manufacturing industries; computerize a pen-and-paper health system; promote data-driven school reforms; and ramp up the research of the future. "This is a chance to do something big, man!" Biden said during a 90-minute interview with TIME. "

Spend baby, spend!!;-)


RK

dnf777
08-26-2010, 05:33 PM
What a great day!!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703959704575453073986194784.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

9985.81 -74.25!!!

I am amazed out how the economy is soaring!!


RK


New jobless claims are down, and so are home forclosures.

Its a mixed bag, baby.

No doubt, we're in deep. I hope we come out soon.

But monthly indicators are basically static. The world is changing, and I doubt America will continue to enjoy such a higher standard of living than the rest of the planet.

Hew
08-26-2010, 05:35 PM
Don't know how many people put much stock into what Jim Cramer says, but he's predicting dismal GDP news tomorrow morning followed by a 15% drop in the stock market. :(

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2010/20100826164211.aspx

aandw
08-26-2010, 05:46 PM
New jobless claims are down, and so are home forclosures.

Its a mixed bag, baby.

No doubt, we're in deep. I hope we come out soon.

But monthly indicators are basically static. The world is changing, and I doubt America will continue to enjoy such a higher standard of living than the rest of the planet.

that seems to be the goal of the current admin. the "hope" was for the world and "change" was for america.

road kill
08-26-2010, 05:49 PM
New jobless claims are down, and so are home forclosures.Its a mixed bag, baby.

No doubt, we're in deep. I hope we come out soon.

But monthly indicators are basically static. The world is changing, and I doubt America will continue to enjoy such a higher standard of living than the rest of the planet.

Really???:confused:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38864587/ns/business-real_estate/

"Ultimately the housing story, whether it is delinquencies, homes sales or housing starts, is an employment story," Jay Brinkmann, the trade group's top economist, said in a statement. "Only when we see a consistent increase in employment will we see an increase in sales and starts, and a sustained improvement in the delinquency numbers."



RK

road kill
08-26-2010, 05:51 PM
Don't know how many people put much stock into what Jim Cramer says, but he's predicting dismal GDP news tomorrow morning followed by a 15% drop in the stock market. :(

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2010/20100826164211.aspx

I said in a post a while back good news was coming today.

I was referring to the info in your link, I missed by a day or 2.

But we all know who's fault this is............:rolleyes:


RK

dnf777
08-26-2010, 07:38 PM
Really???:confused:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38864587/ns/business-real_estate/

"Ultimately the housing story, whether it is delinquencies, homes sales or housing starts, is an employment story," Jay Brinkmann, the trade group's top economist, said in a statement. "Only when we see a consistent increase in employment will we see an increase in sales and starts, and a sustained improvement in the delinquency numbers."



RK


Well, MY home is not in forclosure, because I bought a home I can afford. So you can massage numbers all you want, but I'm ok. And that's all that matters to me.

As far as NEW homes.....there's plenty of houses already out there. We don't need to destroy more wilderness and hunting grounds. I hope new home sales fall to ZERO. Dick and Mary can move into an old house they can AFFORD.

road kill
08-26-2010, 07:41 PM
Well, MY home is not in forclosure, because I bought a home I can afford. So you can massage numbers all you want, but I'm ok. And that's all that matters to me.

As far as NEW homes.....there's plenty of houses already out there. We don't need to destroy more wilderness and hunting grounds. I hope new home sales fall to ZERO. Dick and Mary can move into an old house they can AFFORD.

Interesting perspective.
May well be the problem with America today.




RK

dnf777
08-26-2010, 07:49 PM
Interesting perspective.
May well be the problem with America today.




RK


Its a forgotten concept called personal responsibility. If everyone took care of themselves, and didn't by stuff they can't afford, we wouldn't be in this predicament. But then we wouldn't all be driving BMWs, and we just can't have that, can we?

so if I buy a house I can afford ,within my means, what's your problem with that?

Captain Mike D
08-26-2010, 07:54 PM
And that's all that matters to me.

As far as NEW homes.....there's plenty of houses already out there. We don't need to destroy more wilderness and hunting grounds. I hope new home sales fall to ZERO. Dick and Mary can move into an old house they can AFFORD.

Nice!! You have yours, and to hell with everyone else. You fit into the global warming crowd very well

road kill
08-26-2010, 07:56 PM
Its a forgotten concept called personal responsibility. If everyone took care of themselves, and didn't by stuff they can't afford, we wouldn't be in this predicament. But then we wouldn't all be driving BMWs, and we just can't have that, can we?

so if I buy a house I can afford ,within my means, what's your problem with that?

I have had some hot discussions with some conservatives that think the housing bust is all about the lower income free loaders.
(which did occur)

But a sizeable portion of foreclosures are middle income and higher who bought homes worth $750,000 and above making $65K annual income.

Or second mortgages of 100% of value of an over valued home which the financed at 100% and still owe 85% of that value.

Then that value falls be 25% to 50% and they are bankrupt!!!
If that house was valued at $200,000 and you owe $370,000 and now it's only worth $140,000, $240,000 upside down??
You won't be retiring anytime soon.


Very sad and very STOOOPID!!!

I am sure I'll get it here for posting this, but trust me, my sources on this are solid.

My philosophy on this??

NO DEBT!!!

It's like winning the lottery!!:D



RK

Gerry Clinchy
08-26-2010, 07:59 PM
Well, MY home is not in forclosure, because I bought a home I can afford.

And, fortunately, you didn't lose your job.

Yes, there were people who over-extended themselves, and I don't agree with that. Others, however, lost their jobs. Even those hard-working people who took lower paying jobs to stay afloat might then find themselves in a home they can no longer afford. Even if they had a good savings account, they could have run out with the extended nature of this recession.

Interesting thought, though ... how many people are being paid "under the table" in this scenario? There are many jobs where people could do that. And if the job pays less than their previous job, they might very well do this. Lost tax revenue.

I believe that when taxes got very high in some Scandanavian countries, bartering occurred as well (maybe still does). An plumber might trade services with a dentist, for example. Theoretically, we are also required to report as income the value of bartered services ... but how many do you think actually would?

Agree about the new homes! Rejuvenating older housing, as in our cities, has always been a problem.

dnf777
08-26-2010, 09:45 PM
I have had some hot discussions with some conservatives that think the housing bust is all about the lower income free loaders.
(which did occur)

But a sizeable portion of foreclosures are middle income and higher who bought homes worth $750,000 and above making $65K annual income.

Or second mortgages of 100% of value of an over valued home which the financed at 100% and still owe 85% of that value.

Then that value falls be 25% to 50% and they are bankrupt!!!
If that house was valued at $200,000 and you owe $370,000 and now it's only worth $140,000, $240,000 upside down??
You won't be retiring anytime soon.


Very sad and very STOOOPID!!!

I am sure I'll get it here for posting this, but trust me, my sources on this are solid.

My philosophy on this??

NO DEBT!!!

It's like winning the lottery!!:D



RK


LMAO! That is exactly what I've said before, and was attacked for it. Good luck.

I purchased a house equal to my annual salary. How many can say that?
I see a lot of stupid people mortgaging their lives away, gambling that property values would increase, and save their butts. I don't play the tables, or even the lottery, and I buy what I can afford.

If you have trouble understanding that, and others call it "elitist", so be it. You guys have to look out for yourselves.

Captain: global warming? what are you smoking? Do you want me to pay for my mortgage and YOURS TOO? What a socialist attitude! Now I see how you guys operate. Bash others ideas and call them socialist.....except when you have YOUR hat in your hand wanting someone else to help YOU!

this is truly pathetic.

dnf777
08-26-2010, 09:51 PM
And, fortunately, you didn't lose your job.

Yes, there were people who over-extended themselves, and I don't agree with that. Others, however, lost their jobs. Even those hard-working people who took lower paying jobs to stay afloat might then find themselves in a home they can no longer afford. Even if they had a good savings account, they could have run out with the extended nature of this recession.

Interesting thought, though ... how many people are being paid "under the table" in this scenario? There are many jobs where people could do that. And if the job pays less than their previous job, they might very well do this. Lost tax revenue.

I believe that when taxes got very high in some Scandanavian countries, bartering occurred as well (maybe still does). An plumber might trade services with a dentist, for example. Theoretically, we are also required to report as income the value of bartered services ... but how many do you think actually would?

Agree about the new homes! Rejuvenating older housing, as in our cities, has always been a problem.

Gerry, this has come full circle. I have expressed the same concerns, and been labeled socialist, liberal, and everything else for pointing that out. Well, I've become jaded. Maybe if those people who attacked me for being socialist (because I happen to care about those who lost their jobs) are now holding their hats out....well, don't expect me to put a dollar in it!

According to their views, I got an education, made something of myself, and bought a house I can afford. Now I get called "elitist" for that! What a bunch of losers. I have no sympathy for those who bought or built far beyond their means, then call me names for doing the right thing.

Good talking with ya. One of the few mature voices here. ;)

dnf777
08-26-2010, 10:01 PM
Nice!! You have yours, and to hell with everyone else. You fit into the global warming crowd very well

Isn't that capitalism?

What? You want me to pay your way too?

Captain Mike D
08-26-2010, 10:07 PM
Captain: global warming? what are you smoking? Do you want me to pay for my mortgage and YOURS TOO? What a socialist attitude! Now I see how you guys operate. Bash others ideas and call them socialist.....except when you have YOUR hat in your hand wanting someone else to help YOU!

this is truly pathetic.

Twist it to fit Dr. Do I want you to pay anything for me? Dude lay down that crack pipe because you are definitley have some twisted vibes going. Don't need your help with anything, way past the mortgage thing.

Did I call you Socialist? or is that something that popped into your own head? Reread your own statement. You got your little piece of paridise staked out, now lets just close down any other construction.

depittydawg
08-26-2010, 10:08 PM
Gerry, this has come full circle. I have expressed the same concerns, and been labeled socialist, liberal, and everything else for pointing that out. Well, I've become jaded. Maybe if those people who attacked me for being socialist (because I happen to care about those who lost their jobs) are now holding their hats out....well, don't expect me to put a dollar in it!

According to their views, I got an education, made something of myself, and bought a house I can afford. Now I get called "elitist" for that! What a bunch of losers. I have no sympathy for those who bought or built far beyond their means, then call me names for doing the right thing.

Good talking with ya. One of the few mature voices here. ;)

The number one cause of bankruptcy in the United States.... Anybody care to take a whack at it?

dixidawg
08-26-2010, 10:12 PM
Medical bills

Captain Mike D
08-26-2010, 10:17 PM
Isn't that capitalism?

What? You want me to pay your way too?

No and No! Guess you have sucked on the Gov. tit a little to long to have know reality. Appreciate your service though!

Gerry Clinchy
08-26-2010, 10:44 PM
I have had some hot discussions with some conservatives that think the housing bust is all about the lower income free loaders.
(which did occur)

But a sizeable portion of foreclosures are middle income and higher who bought homes worth $750,000 and above making $65K annual income.

Or second mortgages of 100% of value of an over valued home which the financed at 100% and still owe 85% of that value.

Then that value falls be 25% to 50% and they are bankrupt!!!
If that house was valued at $200,000 and you owe $370,000 and now it's only worth $140,000, $240,000 upside down??
You won't be retiring anytime soon.
RK

I didn't see as much disparity as $750K home with income of $65K, but that could have happened in California where prices have always been through the roof.

But even a $200K house is a sizeable nut to crack on $65K/year, if the down payment is low. So, those were the cases where people took the "funky" mortgages ... variable rates, or interest-only payments for a year or two after the mortgage was secured.

And, yes, you are correct that there are plenty of mid-income or higher mid-income people who are just walking away from underwater mortgages. They can afford to make their payments, but simply decide they can do better renting for less than their mortgage payments.

In those cases, I wish the lenders would exercise their option (in states that allow it) to go after the defaultees for the balance of the mortgage if the house is sold for less than the mortgage amount. However, if the owners agree to leave and sign the property over to the bank, it saves the bank a bundle that they would have to pay for a formal foreclosure proceeding. In some cases, it would be worth it, though.

I sure don't agree with that kind of irresponsibility. And there were also those who used their home equity loans foolishly as well. Vacations, cars, toys, etc.

Just before the bust, I sold an affordable home to a couple both of whose income was partially based on commission. Even with a fixed rate mortgage, when the economy tanked & their income decreased, they have had to struggle. A modification that would have extended the term of their mortgage could be a help to people like that. But the red tape has been incredibly thick to accomplish it. Their home is worth less than they paid for it right now, but nothing like 50% less.

I did show a re-po the other night that is about 30% less than what it sold for in 2005.

The economists (and govt spokespeople) are complaining that consumers aren't spending. Instead, those who still have jobs and can do so, are paying down debt and saving. Duh? Joe Average seems to be brighter than "the ruling class". They are looking at the error of their ways and are taking steps to correct.

dnf777
08-27-2010, 05:57 AM
Twist it to fit Dr. Do I want you to pay anything for me? Dude lay down that crack pipe because you are definitley have some twisted vibes going. Don't need your help with anything, way past the mortgage thing.

Did I call you Socialist? or is that something that popped into your own head? Reread your own statement. You got your little piece of paridise staked out, now lets just close down any other construction.

Uh, yeah. As someone else mentioned, someone making 65k should not be buying 750k homes......shut them down!

A prevailing attitude around here is get a job, make your money, take care of yourself, and the heck with those who can't do the same. How come when a successful independent voices the same attitude, all the sudden you guys find a heart? LMAO. Sorry, didn't meant to imply "you" specifically.

dnf777
08-27-2010, 06:01 AM
But even a $200K house is a sizeable nut to crack on $65K/year, if the down payment is low.

Thank you. While the banks may be partially to blame as enablers, whoever signed on the bottom line is ultimately responsible.

I've always rented, and when I finally started owning my own home, they have always been equal to, or less than, my annual salary. If more people showed a little restraint, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Hopefully, I said that in a little more compassionate way, as to not offend the sensitivities of the recently former hard-liner, bootstrap conservatives that had a problem with my capitalist attitude? ;)

ducknwork
08-27-2010, 07:44 AM
Well, MY home is not in forclosure, because I bought a home I can afford. So you can massage numbers all you want, but I'm ok. And that's all that matters to me.

As far as NEW homes.....there's plenty of houses already out there. We don't need to destroy more wilderness and hunting grounds. I hope new home sales fall to ZERO. Dick and Mary can move into an old house they can AFFORD.

It must be nice to have a job that isn't in any danger. Regardless of how bad off people are financially, they always need a doctor. That will never change. There are plenty of people who have jobs that are dependent on other people having jobs so they can spend their money on things other than necessities. I have such a job...I work in a washer/dryer factory. A few months ago, we were working so much (mainly due to the fed appliance stimulus) that I saw my kids about 2 hours a day, 6 days a week. Now, we are running the lowest production numbers we have run in 7 years, zero overtime and the assembly line is going to be shut down for 2 weeks. Luckily, I'll have plenty of work to keep me busy while they are gone, but I have heard rumors of shutting down from Thanksgiving to January. Merry Christmas to all...

There are plenty of people that have jobs (or used to have jobs) that require consumer spending to exist. Yours isn't one of them. It's just not that easy, but you wouldn't understand. You've never had a job that would be at risk when consumers hold on to their money. Military and doctors...two safe professions...I wanna work in a toilet paper factory.

Gerry Clinchy
08-27-2010, 08:24 AM
Our local paper had an article on the ineffectiveness of the govt programs for mortgage modifications. Basically, it mentioned that the banks have only spent about $321 million of the $47.2 billion allocated for mortgage modifications. And that's 18 months down the road from when this was supposed to start.

The banks weren't prepared for the volume of short sales and modifications. Thank you Fed govt for allocating funds to a program that you had no clue about administering into a reality.

What really annoyed me was the person who was whining that the bank did a modification for them, but that the modification didn't include reducing the principal. Wherever did that person get the notion that the bank should "pay" for his error in misjudging his job security and the real estate market?

The individual is a former mortgage broker (whose business shut down due to the bursting bubble) and general contractor. He also admitted that they would walk away from the house except for the fact that it is a custom home that is their "dream home".

dnf777
08-27-2010, 09:25 AM
There are plenty of people that have jobs (or used to have jobs) that require consumer spending to exist. Yours isn't one of them. It's just not that easy, but you wouldn't understand. You've never had a job that would be at risk when consumers hold on to their money. Military and doctors...two safe professions...I wanna work in a toilet paper factory.

Duck,
I wasn't born with a scalpel in my hand. I chose that profession after careful consideration of many factors before launching into what consumed my life between the age of 21 and 40 to finally start working. Prior to that I worked labor jobs in the Houston oil refieneries as welder's helper, general field hand, ran a water torch, and worst of all, worked in a men's clothing store for one summer job after the oil business slowed down.

I have been chastised for sticking up for the WIC program, foodstamps within reason, and other various entitlements, when used properly. I think you and I have even agreed on some of this stuff before. So when some of the same people start getting all soft and compassionate and call me a big elite meanie for showing a little self-reliance attitude, I find it comical!

they change tunes when the shoe is on the other foot! Hopefully, they will see the light.......and it ain't Glen Beck and his "non-political rally" sporting Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann! :rolleyes:

dnf777
08-27-2010, 09:27 AM
No and No! Guess you have sucked on the Gov. tit a little to long to have know reality. Appreciate your service though!


Thank you for your appreciation. But how does one construe military service as feeding at the government teet? That's rather insulting to a lot of folks out there, wouldn't you say?

Gerry Clinchy
08-27-2010, 10:22 AM
NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/opinion/27brooks.html?th&emc=th

An interesting editorial



The Parent Model
By DAVID BROOKS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/davidbrooks/index.html?inline=nyt-per)


Published: August 26, 2010


During the first half of this year, German and American political leaders engaged in an epic debate. American leaders argued that the economic crisis was so bad, governments should borrow billions to stimulate growth. German leaders argued that a little short-term stimulus was sensible, but anything more was near-sighted. What was needed was not more debt, but measures to balance budgets and restore confidence.


The debate got pointed. American economists accused German policy makers of risking a long depression. The German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, countered, “Governments should not become addicted to borrowing as a quick fix to stimulate demand.”



The two countries followed different policy paths. According to Gary Becker of the University of Chicago, the Americans borrowed an amount equal to 6 percent of G.D.P. in an attempt to stimulate growth. The Germans spent about 1.5 percent of G.D.P. on their stimulus.

This divergence created a natural experiment. Who was right?

The early returns suggest the Germans were. The American stimulus package was supposed to create a “summer of recovery,” according to Obama administration officials. Job growth was supposed to be surging at up to 500,000 a month. Instead, the U.S. economy is scuffling along.

The German economy, on the other hand, is growing at a sizzling (and obviously unsustainable) 9 percent annual rate. Unemployment in Germany has come down to pre-crisis levels.

Results from one quarter do not settle the stimulus/austerity debate. Many other factors are in play. For example, Germany is surging, in part, because America is borrowing. Essentially, we Americans borrowed from our kids, spent some of that money on German machinery, and ended up employing German workers.

But the results do underline one essential truth: Stimulus size is not the key factor in determining how quickly a country emerges from recession. The U.S. tried big, but is emerging slowly. The Germans tried small, and are recovering nicely.

The economy can’t be played like a piano — press a fiscal key here and the right job creation notes come out over there. Instead, economic management is more like parenting. If you instill good values and create a secure climate then, through some mysterious process you will never understand, things will probably end well.

The crucial issue is getting the fundamentals right. The Germans are doing better because during the past decade, they took care of their fundamentals and the Americans didn’t.

The situation can be expressed this way: German policy makers inherited a certain consensus-based economic model. That model has advantages. It fosters gradual innovation (of the sort useful in metallurgy). It also has disadvantages. It sometimes leads to rigidity and high unemployment.

Over the past few years, the Germans have built on their advantages. They effectively support basic research and worker training. They have also taken brave measures to minimize their disadvantages. As an editorial from the superb online think tank e21 reminds us, the Germans have recently reduced labor market regulation, increased wage flexibility and taken strong measures to balance budgets.

In the U.S., policy makers inherited a different economic model, one that also has certain advantages. It fosters disruptive innovation (of the sort useful in Silicon Valley). It also has certain disadvantages — a penchant for over-consumption and short term thinking.

In the past decade, American policy makers have done little to maximize their model’s natural advantages or address its problems. Indeed, they’ve only made the short-term thinking problem worse, with monetary, fiscal and home-ownership policies encouraging even more borrowing and consumption.

Nations rise and fall on the intertwined strength of their cultures and governing institutions. Despite all the normal shortcomings, German governing institutions have functioned reasonably well, ushering in painful but necessary reforms. The U.S. has a phenomenally creative culture, but right now it’s an institutional weakling.

If you look around the world today, you see that a two-class system is coming into being. Some countries are undertaking fundamental reforms. In those places, weaknesses have been exposed. Orthodoxies have been shattered. New coalitions have formed.

This is happening in Britain, where a center-right government is reining in a government that had spun out of control. It’s also true in Sweden and other consensus-based countries, where there is so much emphasis on consistent, long-range thinking.

In other countries, political division frustrates long-range thinking. The emphasis is on fixing things for next month or next quarter. The U.S., unfortunately, is struggling to get out of Group 2.

Buzz
08-27-2010, 10:34 AM
Thank you for your appreciation. But how does one construe military service as feeding at the government teet? That's rather insulting to a lot of folks out there, wouldn't you say?


Don't feel bad. Republicans have characterized my dad and his firefighter and police coworkers dead beats feeding at the government teat. Most recently, Simpson has characterized those receiving social security as Americans feeding at the government teat too. Never mind that they paid into the system their entire lives, no they are to feel like dead beats for accepting the government check.

dnf777
08-27-2010, 10:40 AM
Don't feel bad. Republicans have characterized my dad and his firefighter and police coworkers dead beats feeding at the government teat. Most recently, Simpson has characterized those receiving social security as Americans feeding at the government teat too. Never mind that they paid into the system their entire lives, no they are to feel like dead beats for accepting the government check.


thanks Buzz...its really amazing the stuff that comes out of people's mouths!

As for Simpson, I find it hilarious that someone with Congressional benefits would call Social Security recipients "teet suckers"! If we're sucking on the gov't teets.......I hate to think what HE'S suckin' on! :shock:

Gerry Clinchy
08-28-2010, 07:09 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/28/business/economy/28fed.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

Some interesting comments in this article:



Mr. Bernanke made clear that while the Fed could take various steps, including large purchases of government debt, “central bankers alone cannot solve the world’s economic problems.” Speaking at the Fed’s annual symposium here, he hinted broadly that political leaders had to take steps to tackle the deficit and the trade imbalance.




(http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/alan_s_blinder/index.html?inline=nyt-per)Alan S. Blinder (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/alan_s_blinder/index.html?inline=nyt-per), a former Fed vice chairman and a Princeton professor, noted that Mr. Bernanke focused his remarks on the costs as well as the benefits of additional action to help the economy. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/alan_s_blinder/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

“The Fed has run out of the strong tools, and is turning to the weak ones,” Mr. Blinder said in an interview here. “When you’re fighting in a foxhole and you’ve used up the machine guns and hand grenades, then you pull out the swords and start throwing rocks.”

dback
08-28-2010, 07:22 PM
Don't feel bad. Republicans have characterized my dad and his firefighter and police coworkers dead beats feeding at the government teat. Buzz, I'm not being smart here....I am not sure what Republicans you are referencing....would you provide a link. Most recently, Simpson has characterized those receiving social security as Americans feeding at the government teat too. Simpson has always been 'colorful' with his commentary and I doubt it will change with age. Perhaps we will send Alan and Jimmy, hand in hand to rescue the next prisoner. I think we would all agree there is wasteful spending in ANY government program....SS is no exception. It is my understanding that is what he is referring to. Never mind that they paid into the system their entire lives, no they are to feel like dead beats for accepting the government check.

.......................

T. Mac
08-28-2010, 08:21 PM
I think we would all agree there is wasteful spending in ANY government program....SS is no exception. It is my understanding that is what he is referring to.

The current "scam" going on here is an onslaught of "parents" trying to get their kids tested as having a learning dissability. Once tested and classified as having said disability, the child is now eligible for SSI for the rest of their school years.

YardleyLabs
08-28-2010, 08:30 PM
The current "scam" going on here is an onslaught of "parents" trying to get their kids tested as having a learning dissability. Once tested and classified as having said disability, the child is now eligible for SSI for the rest of their school years.
The Supplemental Security Income program was created under Nixon in large part to end what was seen as excessive fraud in state programs. Unfortunately, the first thing that happened when the Feds took over administration was that the fraud rate sky rocketed. To make it worse, eligibility determinations that were previously made in days began to take months. During the interval, states were forced to provide emergency assistance to the families. Once a person was found eligible, however, the Feds paid retroactive benefits directly to the recipient, making it impossible for the states to recover the emergency benefits paid out and allowing the recipients to receive double benefits for that period.

dnf777
08-29-2010, 01:50 PM
You gotta be kidding me right? You know how many 18-25 year old lazy ass punks collecting SS there are who have not contributed one dime to the system. No, I don't. Do you? ONE is one too many.

PLEEEEZE

More than likely those were the people he was referring to. Not some 65 year old slave to the system. WHAT? Slave to the sytstem? Aren't they free to retire and walk away anytime they want? With full lifetime benefits after two terms? I know lots of WORKING PEOPLE who WERE slaves to the system, who retire after 20+ years with next to nothing in the way of benefits or pension. You can keep feeling sorry for poor congressmen. I don't.

liberals love to twist and spin
Sorry, you've twisted and spun more than Greg Louganis on this one!
Pete

dback
08-30-2010, 09:10 PM
Republicans have characterized my dad and his firefighter and police coworkers dead beats feeding at the government teat.

Still wondering which 'REPUBLICANS' made this statement?