PDA

View Full Version : Great quote about socialized healthcare



Steve
08-12-2009, 11:23 PM
Are you willing to spend time studying the issues, making yourself aware, and then conveying that information to family and friends? Will you resist the temptation to get a government handout for your community? Realize that the doctor's fight against socialized medicine is your fight. We can't socialize the doctors without socializing the patients. Recognize that government invasion of public power is eventually an assault upon your own business. If some among you fear taking a stand because you are afraid of reprisals from customers, clients, or even government, recognize that you are just feeding the crocodile hoping he'll eat you last.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Buzz
08-12-2009, 11:37 PM
Realize that the doctor's fight against socialized medicine is your fight.


Actually, I know two doctors that are in favor of reform. They are sick and tired of insurance companies denying authorization for tests that they feel are necessary. I can't say that the bills I see have anything to do with "socialized medicine."

Henry V
08-12-2009, 11:47 PM
Funny, the quote fails to mention the role of health insurance or the pharmaceutical industry that continue to record huge profits while our health care costs have doubled in the last 10 years. How long do we let this supposedly "competitive" system alone?

Could someone please cite specific references in the current bill or in the basic guidelines that President Obama set forth which are forms of socialism?

Is all insurance a form of socialism by whatever definition you use?

labman13
08-13-2009, 12:03 AM
Could someone please cite specific references in the current bill or in the basic guidelines that President Obama set forth which are forms of socialism?


I just started follwing this but I remember hearing on the news pages 425-430have a lot of people worked up.

Nor_Cal_Angler
08-13-2009, 12:29 AM
Funny, the quote fails to mention the role of health insurance or the pharmaceutical industry that continue to record huge profits while our health care costs have doubled in the last 10 years. How long do we let this supposedly "competitive" system alone?
Could someone please cite specific references in the current bill or in the basic guidelines that President Obama set forth which are forms of socialism?

Is all insurance a form of socialism by whatever definition you use?

The quote doesnt mention the same for BIG OIL companies either...yet you hear people crying out that they (big oil) have doubled maybe even quadrupled profits over the same 10 year period....

Hey we could scratch capitalism all together, make one government run oil company while we're at it, JUST LIKE HUGO CHAVEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think about whats next!!!!!!!!!!!!

slippery slope regards....

NCA

Raymond Little
08-13-2009, 11:10 AM
Funny, the quote fails to mention the role of health insurance or the pharmaceutical industry that continue to record huge profits while our health care costs have doubled in the last 10 years. How long do we let this supposedly "competitive" system alone?

Could someone please cite specific references in the current bill or in the basic guidelines that President Obama set forth which are forms of socialism?

Is all insurance a form of socialism by whatever definition you use?
He has already cut back room deals with Pharma and the AMA, they have sold us out in favor of the same strong arm tactics he used on the people holdings Big Auto's Bonds. Where is your outrage Mr. Lenin??:rolleyes:

road kill
08-13-2009, 11:26 AM
The quote doesnt mention the same for BIG OIL companies either...yet you hear people crying out that they (big oil) have doubled maybe even quadrupled profits over the same 10 year period....

Hey we could scratch capitalism all together, make one government run oil company while we're at it, JUST LIKE HUGO CHAVEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think about whats next!!!!!!!!!!!!

slippery slope regards....

NCA

Yeah, everybody bitches about "BIG OIL" and "BIG PHARMA," what about BIG GOVT??

How much has their (govt.) income increased over the last 6 months??
(actually, 15 years)


I know, that's different, right?

Who is the largest employer in the country, your state, your county and your city.

Find out, it ain't "BIG OIL" or "BIG PHARMA!!"

SueLab
08-13-2009, 05:48 PM
Well, it looks like the old bait and switch has worked...instead of talking about health care reform, now we are talking about health insurance reform and those nasty insurance companies!

If there needs to be reform, let congress pass a couple of laws to allow/force insurance companies to insure in all states and to not reject preexisting conditions among other reforms. Why a complete government take over of health care and head to head competition with private companies??? Both sound like socialism to me and further intrusion by the governemnt into my personal business...thank you big government, your job is defending the country not imposing itself on individuals and direct competion with industry of any kind.

road kill
08-13-2009, 05:50 PM
How about Government Reform??

Nor_Cal_Angler
08-13-2009, 06:04 PM
Yeah, everybody bitches about "BIG OIL" and "BIG PHARMA," what about BIG GOVT??

How much has their (govt.) income increased over the last 6 months??
(actually, 15 years)


I know, that's different, right?

Who is the largest employer in the country, your state, your county and your city.

Find out, it ain't "BIG OIL" or "BIG PHARMA!!"


Now why did you have to go and do that.....

you know we cant function with out BIG GOVT....

come on, I need them to provide for me....tell me what to do, when to do, and who to do it with....I need them because I am to stupid to know what to do for myself, SO I need to allow them into my pocket so they can take my money and do it for me.

you can forget all about Uncle Sam...now its BABYSITTER SAM..at least my Uncle Sam would let me go and do things I wanted to do and if things went wrong my UNCLE would say, you better fix them YOURSELF...now my babysitter says come on over and rest your head little baby, government is gonna make it all better..:p:p:p:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

NCA

mjh345
08-13-2009, 06:18 PM
I think the best quote was from BHO himself, and I can't believe someone else hasn't pointed it out.

At his little NH meeting the other day he was asked how private insurance companies could compete if the HC bill was passed. His response was something to the effect of.... How are Fed-Ex and UPS doing competing against the USPS, he went on to add that Fed-Ex and UPS are doing fine; the USPS is the one that struggles and needs help!!

That is his argument in favor of MORE govt intrusion into Health Care?????

dnf777
08-13-2009, 06:52 PM
I think the best quote was from BHO himself, and I can't believe someone else hasn't pointed it out.

At his little NH meeting the other day he was asked how private insurance companies could compete if the HC bill was passed. His response was something to the effect of.... How are Fed-Ex and UPS doing competing against the USPS, he went on to add that Fed-Ex and UPS are doing fine; the USPS is the one that struggles and needs help!!

That is his argument in favor of MORE govt intrusion into Health Care?????

Well, think about it. You have public and private industries providing complimentary services. When you send out Christmas cards, do you send each one by FedEX or UPS....or do you use the affordable post office? If private industry is far superior, why don't you use big brown for bills, cards, etc...?

Matt McKenzie
08-13-2009, 06:55 PM
Because Big Brown isn't government subsidized, raising prices regularly and still failing. That's what the USPS is doing. Sounds like a great business model for health care. Point taken.

Thomas D
08-13-2009, 07:15 PM
Well, it looks like the old bait and switch has worked...instead of talking about health care reform, now we are talking about health insurance reform and those nasty insurance companies!

If there needs to be reform, let congress pass a couple of laws to allow/force insurance companies to insure in all states and to not reject preexisting conditions among other reforms. Why a complete government take over of health care and head to head competition with private companies??? Both sound like socialism to me and further intrusion by the governemnt into my personal business...thank you big government, your job is defending the country not imposing itself on individuals and direct competion with industry of any kind.

You think your health insurance premiums are high now, just wait until they have to throw all their underwriting guidelines out the window.

luvalab
08-13-2009, 07:30 PM
You think your health insurance premiums are high now, just wait until they have to throw all their underwriting guidelines out the window.

Screw underwriting guidelines. Or at least, fix them so that they're fair.

My parents paid health insurance premiums their entire lives, only to have my mother dropped after ONE major illness at age 60-something--one that resolved quickly and did not recur. I don't know the details of how and why she was dropped and could not find replacement coverage, but I believe it was related to the end of COBRA coverage. For the next couple of years, they lived in abject fear and paid ridiculous indemnity-type insurance on her that pretty much meant she paid for any healthcare expenses out of pocket anyway (in addition to the high premium) until medicaid kicked in.

An entire life of working with the system in good faith, to be cherry-picked out of it in the most vulnerable two or three years of their financial lives.

They're not in favor of the proposed reforms, either...

But come on, people--is the system we have SACRED now because there's a proposal (unacceptable as it may be) that competes with the status quo?

Buzz
08-13-2009, 07:42 PM
Luvalab, see the story about my cousin in the media bias thread.

People just don't realize how vulnerable they are.

Franco
08-13-2009, 07:48 PM
Can't compare Canada to the USA. Canada doesn't have the millions of indigents and illegals to take care of.

It all boils down to a government takeover so that those with some money can pay for those without. Not that we already don't have charitable hospitals and health care, it is just that those that work and pay for health insurence shouldn't have better coverage than the wards of the state.

I live in a large medical community, large for this aprt of the world and we are the medical hub for the state. Why are so many Canadians coming here for thier health care?

I'm not saying that we don't need some insurance reform and Tort reform but the goobs taking over a business is a recipe for disaster.

Cody Covey
08-13-2009, 07:56 PM
Why in the hell would the insurance companies cover pre existing conditions. They are INSURANCE companies not Healthcare companies, they take care of you in case something happens not something that has already happened. At least not without paying much larger fees. I say start with tort reform and go from there. Also I think if you are going to do a government plan you should be able to opt out, meaning you don't have to pay the taxes that result from healthcare "reform" since you aren't going to be using it.

luvalab
08-13-2009, 07:56 PM
Luvalab, see the story about my cousin in the media bias thread.

People just don't realize how vulnerable they are.

Just saw it.

Unfortunately, I think a whole bunch of folks--including most of congress--have lost their minds, and the best short-term strategy is to just drop the whole thing for a while.

It's become sort of like some bad Thanksgiving dinner, where everyone should probably just shove rolls in their mouths so that the family will get through Christmas without a permanent rift.

K G
08-14-2009, 09:08 AM
I think the best quote was from BHO himself, and I can't believe someone else hasn't pointed it out.

At his little NH meeting the other day he was asked how private insurance companies could compete if the HC bill was passed. His response was something to the effect of.... How are Fed-Ex and UPS doing competing against the USPS, he went on to add that Fed-Ex and UPS are doing fine; the USPS is the one that struggles and needs help!!

That is his argument in favor of MORE govt intrusion into Health Care?????


Well, think about it. You have public and private industries providing complimentary services. When you send out Christmas cards, do you send each one by FedEX or UPS....or do you use the affordable post office? If private industry is far superior, why don't you use big brown for bills, cards, etc...?


Because Big Brown isn't government subsidized, raising prices regularly and still failing. That's what the USPS is doing. Sounds like a great business model for health care. Point taken.

Sounds like there IS one thing we can agree with BHO on....;-)

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_156707.asp

We have met the enemy and he is us regards,

kg

Mike Noel
08-14-2009, 09:30 AM
Well, think about it. You have public and private industries providing complimentary services. When you send out Christmas cards, do you send each one by FedEX or UPS....or do you use the affordable post office? If private industry is far superior, why don't you use big brown for bills, cards, etc...?

I love the post office analogy. If I ever send something by mail that I want to get somewhere with 100% certainty I use FedEx and/ or UPS. The post office is a crapshoot....you get what you pay for.

Now apply that to healthcare and I would rather pay more for quality service than put a 42 cent stamp on my head and walk into the doctors office hoping I get seen that day.

I can hear it now......."the government has decided to cut the delivery of healthcare services to 5 days a week to match the delivery of the mail":p

Matt McKenzie
08-14-2009, 09:35 AM
I love the post office analogy. If I ever send something by mail that I want to get somewhere with 100% certainty I use FedEx and/ or UPS. The post office is a crapshoot....you get what you pay for.

Now apply that to healthcare and I would rather pay more for quality service than put a 42 cent stamp on my head and walk into the doctors office hoping I get seen that day.

I can hear it now......."the government has decided to cut the delivery of healthcare services to 5 days a week to match the delivery of the mail":p

Try this. Walk into a UPS store and ship something. Walk into a FEDEX and ship something. Walk into a post office to ship something and compare your wait and the customer service. Compare prices and understand that your tax dollars are subsidizing that poor service and long line. Like I said before, great business model for socialized medicine to follow. I can't wait.

Mike Noel
08-14-2009, 09:40 AM
Try this. Walk into a UPS store and ship something. Walk into a FEDEX and ship something. Walk into a post office to ship something and compare your wait and the customer service. Compare prices and understand that your tax dollars are subsidizing that poor service and long line. Like I said before, great business model for socialized medicine to follow. I can't wait.

Thats the truth. I really could not believe that BHO compared healthcare reform to the post office.....the post office is cutting back on service, is that what we should expect from a public option?

road kill
08-14-2009, 09:48 AM
Thats the truth. I really could not believe that BHO compared healthcare reform to the post office.....the post office is cutting back on service, is that what we should expect from a public option?

YES!!

Poor service, waiting in lines, lacadaisical frontline personel, Drs that are taxed tired and unmotivated.
Overwhelming rules & procedures that noone really understands.
Waste in spending, poor management of assets.

Name 1 Govt. run entity that does not have these issues, just 1!!

Gerry Clinchy
08-14-2009, 10:29 AM
USPS: Probably a good analogy to the proposed health care reform. They are mandated to provide a basic service at a reasonable cost to the public ... whether they can make money at it or not. When they don't make money, the govt subsidizes the loss. They also are allowed to raise their rates periodically.

This sounds an awful lot like what has happened with Medicare. Medicare takes care of the overall most expensive part of the population at a basic level. Over time, Medicare recipients have had to pay increased amounts from their SS check to the program. No choice there. A certain amount is simply deducted from their check before they see it.

The motivation for the program is basically the same as for the current health care proposal. Take care of those citizens who are not able to take care of themselves. Seniors were likely to have more health issues than younger people. Insurance companies would have to charge them large amounts for coverage, because of the high probability of larger payouts than for younger people. So, govt stepped in to even the playing field.

For seniors this makes some sense. They worked all their lives already. They paid into the system. At the end of their lives, they are no longer able to work as they did when they were younger.

BTW, I see nothing wrong with giving end-of-life counselling so that all seniors are aware of the fact that they can make life choices that will reflect their wishes for their last days. I am puzzled, however, why the govt has to pay drs to do this.

There are many sources already in place that could provide this. AARP comes to mind. Senior centers throughout the country provide many programs, and could provide this service. Our local counties have "counsels on aging" that provide many services to less-well-off seniors at no charge. Social workers provide "depression" counseling for seniors. Presumably, better off seniors will have advisors who can provide this information. And, if a senior provides evidence of having taken such counseling, just send them a check for one month of their Medicare contribution. Do O and his advisors realize that such services are already available? Do they realize that there is a simpler way to implement end-of-life counselling? And probably cheaper.

I don't believe that all of those who oppose this particular health care reform proposal are opposed to health care reform. The devil is in the details. If we're going to "reform", then what we end up with should be better than what we started with. I am not convinced that this particular proposal holds such promise.

badbullgator
08-14-2009, 11:04 AM
Actually, I know two doctors that are in favor of reform. They are sick and tired of insurance companies denying authorization for tests that they feel are necessary. I can't say that the bills I see have anything to do with "socialized medicine."

I know many that are in favor of reform.....just not this reform
As far as the AMA support of it, I know zero doctors that agree with the AMA on this issue and I know more than a few doctors.
You say it in your own answer "they are sick of insurance denying authorization for test they feel are necessary" and you think this reform will make that any better? I would say I know many docotrs in favor of reform, but that reform is insurance reform and tort reform and not the reform of the overall healthcare system

badbullgator
08-14-2009, 11:21 AM
For those who say there will be no rationing or government control of a persons healthcare let me give you this example. We had a patient come over form Italy for treatment. She was 36 years old when she came to us and when talking infertility issues she is approaching critical age. In Italy she was first seen at age 31 and her issues figured out. She was then put on a waiting list for IVF at age 33+ she received her first IVF treatment. Treatment in Italy is very different that here. In Italy they are only allowed to retrieve as many eggs from a woman as they will transfer back into her. That number is usually one or two eggs. Let me explain how the process works. Women are stimulated to release more eggs than they would in a normal cycle, the amount depends a lot on the woman but we usually get an average of 10 (have gotten as many as 36). Out of those 10 8 or 9 are mature and available to be used for insemination. Even though in a majority of our cases we inject a sperm directly into an egg, only 80-90% fertilize normally, so out of those 8 eggs that were injected 7 may fertilize normally. Out of those 7 3-4, on average reach an advanced level of embryo maturity by day 5, the day we transfer them back into the patient. We generally transfer 1-3 embryos based on the patients diagnosis, age, and other factors. With luck this results in a pregnancy (in our practice we get 60% of our patient pregnant and they deliver a baby, but that is high as we are one of the better in the country). As you can see it is a numbers game when it comes to IVF. Now take this example and only start with 2 eggs. Can you see a problem? The first IVF cycle this woman did resulted in zero embryos to be transferred. She then had to wait another 16 months for another IVF cycle making her almost 35 years old. Her diagnosis was advanced reproductive age and low ovarian reserve so her age was a very important factor. When she came to us we were able to get 11 eggs, 10 had normal fertilization, and by day 5, 7 were at a very advanced stage. We transferred 2 embryos and she delivered a singleton about 9 months later. She is returning later this year to have some of her frozen embryos transferred (Something they donít do over there) and hopefully will be able to have a second child. Because they have socialized medicine she was rationed (made to wait to the point that it was almost too late) and the government affected her personal healthcare by limiting the type of procedures that are done.
Rationing and government control of procedures will happen there is no two ways about it.

Raymond Little
08-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Bet they do not treat "Abortion" the same way Corey.:rolleyes:

Steve
08-14-2009, 12:59 PM
Well, think about it. You have public and private industries providing complimentary services. When you send out Christmas cards, do you send each one by FedEX or UPS....or do you use the affordable post office? If private industry is far superior, why don't you use big brown for bills, cards, etc...?

Private industry is prohibited by law from deliverying regular mail. That is why UPS, etc only ship packages.

Pat G
08-14-2009, 01:03 PM
I think everyone can agree that we do need health care reform, I just don't understand why it is this plan or nothing, well maybe I do understand. My wife asked our Rep at a town hall what he thought about HR2520, the patients Choice act put forth by Senators Coburn and Burr, and Reps. Ryan and Nunes. He told her he hadn't heard of it but, he promised her he would read it. Answers were very vague, when asked about illegals being covered Rep. Larson replied, no they are not covered. The first thing that came to mind is, is there wording in HR3220 that enforces any type of verifacation of citizenship? I don't think so. I thanked Rep. Larson for having the balls to put on the town hall but, that I didn't agree with this proposal. All in all I came away with very little.
Pat

dnf777
08-14-2009, 01:23 PM
For those who say there will be no rationing or government control of a persons healthcare let me give you this example. We had a patient come over form Italy for treatment. She was 36 years old when she came to us and when talking infertility issues she is approaching critical age. In Italy she was first seen at age 31 and her issues figured out. She was then put on a waiting list for IVF at age 33+ she received her first IVF treatment. Treatment in Italy is very different that here. In Italy they are only allowed to retrieve as many eggs from a woman as they will transfer back into her. That number is usually one or two eggs. Let me explain how the process works. Women are stimulated to release more eggs than they would in a normal cycle, the amount depends a lot on the woman but we usually get an average of 10 (have gotten as many as 36). Out of those 10 8 or 9 are mature and available to be used for insemination. Even though in a majority of our cases we inject a sperm directly into an egg, only 80-90% fertilize normally, so out of those 8 eggs that were injected 7 may fertilize normally. Out of those 7 3-4, on average reach an advanced level of embryo maturity by day 5, the day we transfer them back into the patient. We generally transfer 1-3 embryos based on the patients diagnosis, age, and other factors. With luck this results in a pregnancy (in our practice we get 60% of our patient pregnant and they deliver a baby, but that is high as we are one of the better in the country). As you can see it is a numbers game when it comes to IVF. Now take this example and only start with 2 eggs. Can you see a problem? The first IVF cycle this woman did resulted in zero embryos to be transferred. She then had to wait another 16 months for another IVF cycle making her almost 35 years old. Her diagnosis was advanced reproductive age and low ovarian reserve so her age was a very important factor. When she came to us we were able to get 11 eggs, 10 had normal fertilization, and by day 5, 7 were at a very advanced stage. We transferred 2 embryos and she delivered a singleton about 9 months later. She is returning later this year to have some of her frozen embryos transferred (Something they donít do over there) and hopefully will be able to have a second child. Because they have socialized medicine she was rationed (made to wait to the point that it was almost too late) and the government affected her personal healthcare by limiting the type of procedures that are done.
Rationing and government control of procedures will happen there is no two ways about it.

In a capitalist society, she is more than free to seek private fertility clinics who will be more than happy to harvest and implant as many eggs as she desires, even if we have a nationalized health plan. Personally, I don't want my tax dollars going to increasing the already overwhelming population. I don't mean to sound uncompassionate, but some things you should have to pay for if you want. (uh-oh, I'm starting to revert back to being a republican, saying crazy things like that!!)

If anyone does not think that healthcare is being rationed now, think of how much time you have spent on "hold" to your insurance company listening to Barry Manilow, waiting to argue with some weenie why something should be covered or not, or disputing your "explanation of benefits" form!