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road kill
08-13-2009, 08:59 AM
The Morning Bell


THURSDAY, AUG 13, 2009


We’re Winning The Health Care Debate



When any White House knows they are a losing a public debate, they turn to sympathetic journalists to try and reframe the debate in a way that is more advantageous to their policy goals. So after consulting with his best White House sources, The Atlantic’s Marc Ambinder wrote under the headline How Conservatives Are Blowing Their Chance, Sunday:

“Democrats are beginning to notice that opponents of health care reform have discredited themselves. … The media, being a collection of different megaphones, reported on the town hall meetings in one of two ways, both damaging to Republicans. Either they credulously reported the louder, angrier voices (inherently damaging to Republicans in this case) or they reported on the political architecture of the town hall meetings, which plays down the substance of the protests. … The White House’s goal was to prevent the Blue Dogs from panicking. The swing constituents in these congressional districts aren’t angry Republicans, and the Blue Dogs know this. They’re political independents for whom the sanctity of the process is important.”

So that is the official White House spin. But what is the reality? Two new polls came out yesterday from Gallup and Pew, and both of them show that in direct contradiction to Ambinder’s “analysis”, the townhall protests are, in fact, making political independents more sympathetic to opponents of Obamacare. Pew found that of those Americans following the townhalls, 61%, including 64% of independents, said they think the way people have been protesting is appropriate. And according to Gallup, 34% of independents say the townhalls have made them more sympathetic to opponents of Obamacare, compared to only 23% of independents who say the townhalls have made them less sympathetic. Equally important, Gallup found that more Americans believe the townhall protesters are motivated by their internal beliefs and not stirred up by “political activists” crating “organized opposition.”

In fact, it is the supporters of Obamacare who are resorting to multi-million dollar Astroturf campaigns. Earlier this week Billionaire speculator George Soros pledged $5 million for the cause and any perusal of online bulletin board Craigslist will find hundreds of ads promising $11-16 an hour for “grassroots” campaign jobs supporting Obamacare. And just yesterday Americans for Stable Quality Care (a group largely funded by the pharmaceutical industry but also including the AMA, Families USA, the Federation of American Hospitals, and the SEIU) launched a $12 million television ad campaign in support of the White House plan. This $12 million ad buy is just a small fraction of the $150 million that PhRMA has pledged for advertising and “grassroots activity” to help pass Obama’s plan.

Turning back to the White House spin, Ambinder wrote about the townhalls: “Lawmakers, Republicans and Democrats, were being asked to respond to non-sequiturs (would you support a health care reform plan that grows the deficit? Health care grows the deficit right now, so it’s a nonsense question, one that is easy for politicians to answer).” This just shows how out of touch the White House is with the American people. As Gallup’s Frank Newport reported last week: “The push for healthcare reform is occurring in an environment characterized by high levels of concern about fiscal responsibility, government spending, and the growing federal deficit. … The economy outweighs health care as the most pressing problem facing the country and in Americans’ personal lives.”

At his Portsmouth, New Hampshire pep rally yesterday, President Obama pleaded: “Where we do disagree, let’s disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that’s actually been proposed.” Well here is the reality of what has actually been passed by three separate House committees: Obamacare will be spending $245 billion a year by 2019, increases the budget deficit by $239 billion over that same time frame, and in the out years, according to CBO director Doug Elmendorf “the proposal would probably generate substantial increases in federal budget deficits during the decade beyond the current 10-year budget window.”

Keep on keepin on.....you fellow "Mobsters!!"

stan b

Henry V
08-13-2009, 10:08 AM
RK,
Yes, that's great. I can't wait until health care is soon 20% of GDP as predicted and real wages remain stagnant for the foreseeable future as employer linked health care costs continue to rise. While we are at it let's link our home, life, and car insurance to our employers and then make auto insurance optional too.

Let's also get the government out of providing flood insurance where private insurers won't take the risk. Wait, I am all for that. Maybe we do agree on something.

For a different view on the issue take a look at:
http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13899647
and
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13900898

Do you really believe that big pharma and the insurance companies are spending more to support reform than they are to stop it? Do you also believe that big oil really wants to find alternative energy sources rather than maintain our total dependency on their products? If so, I see how it is only a tiny step to believe that this the real goal of this reform is a government takeover.

Buzz
08-13-2009, 10:12 AM
Henry, you're wasting your time posting links to articles like that. You will be told that it's all bullshit, Obama is a Nazi, and you are a commie.

Bob Gutermuth
08-13-2009, 10:22 AM
NO To Socialized Medicine

Henry V
08-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Please cite the portions of any of the health care bills which will lead to socialized medicine.

Bob Gutermuth
08-13-2009, 10:58 AM
The whole stinkin bill is an exercise in socialism

Henry V
08-13-2009, 11:04 AM
Henry, you're wasting your time posting links to articles like that. You will be told that it's all bullshit, Obama is a Nazi, and you are a commie.
Buzz, are you channeling FOX news again?
We can't let this be just a right wing echo chamber all the time.
You probably also want government death panels under our illegitimate Kenyan born President to kill grandma and babies while the 6,000 year old earth is not warming and they take away our guns and freedom of speech and W was a great President. But, of course, you then also know that the giant liberal media machine will cover it all up and dissect Sarah Palin's family at the same time. You godless progressive liberal socialist antiamerican frickin' commie.:)

Are you coming to our trial? 224 dogs and a 101 dog special. I hope the weather is good.

luvalab
08-13-2009, 11:07 AM
I happen to think the proposed health insurance reforms are a nightmare. Who wants legislation that says every individual is required to give money to private companies or else be fined substantially by the government?

And by the way--do people REALLY believe the insurance companies are going to be jeopardized by any of these proposals? I'd bet one of the reasons the plans run to 1000-plus pages are so that insurance companies get paid what they want.

On the other hand, I'm not sure keeping a status quo where INSURANCE companies can and do cherry-pick and discount only healthy individuals, insurance companies that can and do make health-care decisions based on cost and bottom line despite the fact that they've been paid to INSURE health care for their insured...

Well, I'm not sure keeping the status quo is exactly "winning."

Some logical, limited, common-sense reform wouldn't be "losing," either.

Why does everything have to be some great divide with a quorum of maniacs shouting at each other across a canyon?

Buzz
08-13-2009, 11:34 AM
Are you coming to our trial? 224 dogs and a 101 dog special. I hope the weather is good.

I have my Mick entered in Derby. I'll be staying at the in-law's cabin on Ottertail Lake and driving over on Saturday morning. What stake are you working? I'll try and drop by to say hello.

Best,
Dave Bezesky

blind ambition
08-13-2009, 04:50 PM
NO To Socialized Medicine

Public servants receive heath care benefits even in their retirement isn't that a good thing? Do you consider benefits paid to veterans socialism? Is it socialism when fire and police services are extended to the unemployed as well as the employed?

Bob Gutermuth
08-13-2009, 07:32 PM
Its socialism when they take my tax money to pay for anything for those who haven't earned it. Examples, health care to illegals, who pay no taxes, and health care to the indolent who have no job and pay no taxes.

Gerry Clinchy
08-13-2009, 09:44 PM
While we are at it let's link our home, life, and car insurance to our employers and then make auto insurance optional too.


Interesting that you mention auto insurance. The gov't requires auto insurance (in most states, I think). When rates get too high for certain high risk areas, the gov't has the insurors form high risk "pools". Not a car insurance expert, but I think the idea is that all the people that are high risk, are put in a group where all the insurors operating in the state share those high risk drivers. The premiums are still not "cheap", but it gets insurance on those people ... if they want to drive. The coverage provided is "basic".

I still question whether the gov't will provide things "cheaper" just because they are "non-profit".

M&K, you seem to be in the insurance business. Could you get a quote for the type of insurance the bill proposes ... and then we can take off some % for the "profit" of insurance companies and see what the cost looks like.

Why does the government have to get involved in being the insuror? Why not just have the existing insurors provide a "basic" policy (akin to what is proposed in the bill). Then make it a withholding on paychecks (for those who have no other health insurance), and the money goes directly to the insurance "pool" formed by existing insurors. No "cherry-picking", and nobody pays a tax & gets nothing in return. That young fellow who pays the 2.5% tax at the end of the year will not be helped if he remains uninsured and falls off a ladder painting his house. The virtue in doing it this way is that it would be easier to "undo" and change than it would be if the govt is the insuror.

blind ambition
08-14-2009, 07:06 PM
Its socialism when they take my tax money to pay for anything for those who haven't earned it. Examples, health care to illegals, who pay no taxes, and health care to the indolent who have no job and pay no taxes.

Well, that doesn't quite answer my question but then neither of us are beholden to each other.

As far as health care goes I don't think it should be viewed as a commodity, at least in it's payment model.
I can spend myself blind or stay within my budget when it comes to consumer goods. If GM could seduce me into their showroom each year to buy a new car and I got myself into more debt than I could afford, that would be my problem and I wouldn't ask you to bail me out and I sure wouldn't lobby to have GM produce cheaper, no make that less expensive cars so that I could buy a new one each year and not go into debt.

But who decides to get sick? Sure we could all eat better and exercise more or not live where the water supply is contaminated from mine tailings etc., etc. ad nauseum. For the most part however, we get sick just because we're human and even the severity of our illness is sometimes luck or bad luck if you will. Being ill and requiring treatment is not impulse shopping and frankly I don't want to be viewed just as an source income.

From what I can see of the debate raging over healthcare, your country is caring enough to be certain that your vetrans recieve healthcare, your police and fire fighters are provided for into their retirement too, ironicaly I gather that your poor and yes, the lazy too, are taken provided for. So I am mistified when I see the tempers flare and the indignation rise at the spectre of a great nation loosing all its' founding priciples and becoming socialist. You already reap the benefit from shared expenes, see the value to pooling resources to build and maintain a great nation.

From where I sit and from what I can gleem from this very carefully managed national fracas, who is it that this supposed to benefit by this HR bill? Not the illegals, not those on welfare, no it's the guy who lives next door to you who works but maybe his wife has cancer and his insurer won't cover him at a rate he can afford, or he just lost his job because his multi national employer just shipped the CNC machine he worked on the Indonesia, It's the guy who, there by the grace of God go I.

bobbyb
08-14-2009, 07:23 PM
Did I hear Obama say that the NEWS MEDIA was giving too much air time to health care protester and town hall meetings ? Funny he didn't say nothing about the media bias when he was running. need to watch abc,nbc and cbs to see if they will cut back on their coverage

Bob Gutermuth
08-14-2009, 07:52 PM
I'm one of those cops who has insurance in my retirement, but I pay for it, its not a freebie, that after 25 yrs of risking my butt for an ungrateful citizenry. Vets get soome free care, but military retirees have to pay for much of theirs.

One of the things I do not want to lose, is quick access to medical care. I don't know how many of my posts you have read, but I am a cancer suvivor. I was diagnosed treated and cured in a bit over 6 months. If the current plan is adopted and I am stuck with it rather than private insurance, I am worried that I am reaching the age (58), where the govt plan will either not waste money on me OR I will be in line far too long to be able to have whatever my problem is fixed.

We have a country replete with millions of illegal aliens, and the Obamacare plan is open to giving them free healthcare, like the slugs on welfare(we have a lot of them too). I grew up learning there ain't no free lunch and I don't want to be paying for the illegals and the indolent to get something that I had to work for. The really disabled are a different kettle of fish.

Those who get military or public safety healthcare had to earn it by the sweat of their brow even if they get gratis now, they have earned it.

blind ambition
08-14-2009, 10:14 PM
I'm one of those cops who has insurance in my retirement, but I pay for it, its not a freebie, that after 25 yrs of risking my butt for an ungrateful citizenry. Vets get soome free care, but military retirees have to pay for much of theirs. Just asking cause I don't know but is the coverage subsidized by the state. I noticed that there is a large short fall in the Balitimore healthcare plan.

We have a country replete with millions of illegal aliens, and the Obamacare plan is open to giving them free healthcare, like the slugs on welfare(we have a lot of them too). I grew up learning there ain't no free lunch and I don't want to be paying for the illegals and the indolent to get something that I had to work for. The really disabled are a different kettle of fish. Ain't these guys already protected?

Those who get military or public safety healthcare had to earn it by the sweat of their brow even if they get gratis now, they have earned it. Doesn't the miner or the machinist or the butcher or baker who spent his working life toiling for the American dream deserve the same?

You don't seem to have a problem with Socialism when you benefit but extending a hand to another worker is SOCIALISM ? That strikes me as disingenuous at best. BTW I'm glad you are a survivor, folks just shoudn't have to make the choice between health and their family's livelihood.

Buzz
08-15-2009, 12:06 AM
We have a country replete with millions of illegal aliens, and the Obamacare plan is open to giving them free healthcare, like the slugs on welfare(we have a lot of them too). I grew up learning there ain't no free lunch and I don't want to be paying for the illegals and the indolent to get something that I had to work for. The really disabled are a different kettle of fish.



Everything I've read says that illegals are specifically excluded in the bill. Please show me in the legislation where it says that illegals will be covered. I'm willing to read it and believe if I see it in writing.

Pat G
08-15-2009, 01:51 AM
Please show me where it explains the process of verification of citizenship in HR3220

tpaschal30
08-15-2009, 06:44 AM
Everything I've read says that illegals are specifically excluded in the bill. Please show me in the legislation where it says that illegals will be covered. I'm willing to read it and believe if I see it in writing.

They will be granted citizenship at a later date. Gives the bill palatability(if possible) and cover for Congress. Don't assume things will remain as they are.

Bob Gutermuth
08-15-2009, 06:56 AM
Osamacare and illegals:http://thehill.com/op-eds/healthcare-scheme-would-benefit-illegal-immigrants-2009-08-03.html

Bob Gutermuth
08-15-2009, 07:16 AM
Blind ambitiion, my health care is NOT subsidized by the state.