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Buzz
09-01-2009, 07:50 PM
The Secretary of Education sent the following letter to principles around the country. You can verify that it is the real thing here:

http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html



Letter From Secretary Arne Duncan to School Principals



Dear Principal:

In a recent interview with student reporter, Damon Weaver, President Obama announced that on September 8 — the first day of school for many children across America — he will deliver a national address directly to students on the importance of education. The President will challenge students to work hard, set educational goals, and take responsibility for their learning. He will also call for a shared responsibility and commitment on the part of students, parents and educators to ensure that every child in every school receives the best education possible so they can compete in the global economy for good jobs and live rewarding and productive lives as American citizens.

Since taking office, the President has repeatedly focused on education, even as the country faces two wars, the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression and major challenges on issues like energy and health care. The President believes that education is a critical part of building a new foundation for the American economy. Educated people are more active civically and better informed on issues affecting their lives, their families and their futures.

This is the first time an American president has spoken directly to the nation's school children about persisting and succeeding in school. We encourage you to use this historic moment to help your students get focused and begin the school year strong. I encourage you, your teachers, and students to join me in watching the President deliver this address on Tuesday, September 8, 2009. It will be broadcast live on the White House website www.whitehouse.gov 12:00 noon eastern standard time.

In advance of this address, we would like to share the following resources: a menu of classroom activities for students in grades preK-6 and for students in grades 7-12. These are ideas developed by and for teachers to help engage students and stimulate discussion on the importance of education in their lives. We are also staging a student video contest on education. Details of the video contest will be available on our website www.ed.gov in the coming weeks.

On behalf of all Americans, I want to thank our educators who do society's most important work by preparing our children for work and for life. No other task is more critical to our economic future and our social progress. I look forward to working with you in the months and years ahead to continue improving the quality of public education we provide all of our children.

Sincerely,



Arne Duncan


Jim Greer, GOP Chairman from Florida responded with Glenn Beck type Bat Crap Crazy with the following statement. You can verify that it is the real thing here:

http://www.rpof.org/article.php?id=754


Tallahassee- Â Republican Party of Florida Chairman Jim Greer today released the following statement condemning President Obama's use of taxpayer dollars to indoctrinate America's children to his socialist agenda.


"As the father of four children, I am absolutely appalled that taxpayer dollars are being used to spread President Obama's socialist ideology. The idea that school children across our nation will be forced to watch the President justify his plans for government-run health care, banks, and automobile companies, increasing taxes on those who create jobs, and racking up more debt than any other President, is not only infuriating, but goes against beliefs of the majority of Americans, while bypassing American parents through an invasive abuse of power.


"While I support educating our children to respect both the office of the American President and the value of community service, I do not support using our children as tools to spread liberal propaganda. The address scheduled for September 8, 2009, does not allow for healthy debate on the President's agenda, but rather obligates the youngest children in our public school system to agree with our President's initiatives or be ostracized by their teachers and classmates.


"Public schools can't teach children to speak out in support of the sanctity of human life or traditional marriage. President Obama and the Democrats wouldn't dream of allowing prayer in school. Christmas Parties are now Holiday Parties. But, the Democrats have no problem going against the majority of American people and usurping the rights of parents by sending Pied Piper Obama into the American classroom.


The Democrats have clearly lost the battle to maintain control of the message this summer, so now that school is back in session, President Obama has turned to American's children to spread his liberal lies, indoctrinating American's youngest children before they have a chance to decide for themselves."

So, let me get this straight. Obama wants to talk to students about working hard, staying in school, studying, etc, and Greer decides that it's Obama's latest attempt to indoctrinate the nations youth and recruit them into the communist party?

YardleyLabs
09-01-2009, 08:23 PM
Unfortunately, the second paragraph of the secretary's letter was inappropriate and unnecessary.

Buzz
09-01-2009, 08:27 PM
Unfortunately, the second paragraph of the secretary's letter was inappropriate and unnecessary.

Maybe unnecessary, but I don't know about inappropriate. All she's doing is tooting his horn a little, stating that despite the major challenges facing the president, he is still focused and committed to education.

If you're arguing that she opened the door to the loony response, I disagree. There is nothing stating that his address to the students will broach any of those topics.

Hew
09-02-2009, 06:29 AM
Oh, the outrage. Buzz, I'm sure you would have been just fine with every public school child being propped in front of a TV to hear George Bush tell them why it is important to listen to what the President says and then being asked by their teachers to come up with ways in which they can help the President. Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggghhhhhhhhht. :rolleyes:

btw, Arne Duncan is a man.

Buzz
09-02-2009, 08:03 AM
Oh, the outrage. Buzz, I'm sure you would have been just fine with every public school child being propped in front of a TV to hear George Bush tell them why it is important to listen to what the President says and then being asked by their teachers to come up with ways in which they can help the President. Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggghhhhhhhhht. :rolleyes:

btw, Arne Duncan is a man.

The outrage is that Greer knows well that most people won't go out and find the original letter stating the purpose of the address to students. They will read his statement and assume that indeed Obama is going to address the students about everything that he says he will, and they'll be outraged too, get out their signs, paint Hitler mustaches on Obama, and call him a commie and socialist. So Greer starts a big controversy on a bunch of made up crap. Typical operating procedure of the GOP.

For the record, it wouldn't have bothered me one bit if Bush wanted to address students about working hard, studying, and staying in school. I would have given him credit for trying to give students a positive message at the start of a new school year. But NOOOO, everything has to be turned into controversy, regardless if one exists or not.

Hew
09-02-2009, 08:11 AM
The outrage is that Greer knows well that most people won't go out and find the original letter stating the purpose of the address to students. They will read his statement and assume that indeed Obama is going to address the students about everything that he says he will, and they'll be outraged too, get out their signs, paint Hitler mustaches on Obama, and call him a commie and socialist. So Greer starts a big controversy on a bunch of made up crap. Typical operating procedure of the GOP.
Yes, I know. You've already gone on record that anti-war/anti-Bush protests/dissent was good and anti-Obama protests/dissent is bad.

But can we get past your Hitler mustache phobia and move on to the larger question? Would you have been OK to have had Bush address every public school child and telling them the importance of listening to what the President says and then having the children discuss ways in which they could help the President?

Buzz
09-02-2009, 08:41 AM
But can we get past your Hitler mustache phobia and move on to the larger question? Would you have been OK to have had Bush address every public school child and telling them the importance of listening to what the President says and then having the children discuss ways in which they could help the President?

I did answer that.

Where did you get, "telling them the importance of listening to what the President says and then having the children discuss way in which they could help the President?" It isn't in the letter from the secretary. Either you made it up, or heard it from someone who made it up.

Goose
09-02-2009, 08:41 AM
Obama, my Dear Leader, give me by God.
Protect and preserve my life for long.
You saved America in time of need.
I thank you for my daily bread.
Be with me for a long time, do not leave me, Obama, my Dear Leader.
My faith, my light, Hail to my Dear Leader.

Buzz
09-02-2009, 08:43 AM
Obama, my Dear Leader, give me by God.
Protect and preserve my life for long.
You saved America in time of need.
I thank you for my daily bread.
Be with me for a long time, do not leave me, Obama, my Dear Leader.
My faith, my light, Hail to my Dear Leader.

More Bat Crap crazy at it's finest.

Hoosier
09-02-2009, 09:12 AM
I talked to my daughters teacher about this this morning. I told her if they were going to air this Obami address to students let me know ahead of time so I can Pick Kate up early that day. Her response was that she hadn't heard about and wouldn't be showing it to the kids. Thank God for a nice Christian school.

Buzz
09-02-2009, 09:39 AM
I talked to my daughters teacher about this this morning. I told her if they were going to air this Obami address to students let me know ahead of time so I can Pick Kate up early that day. Her response was that she hadn't heard about and wouldn't be showing it to the kids. Thank God for a nice Christian school.


Yup, she would be scarred for life it she had to listen to the President for 5 minutes, encouraging her to work hard, study, and stay in school. Irreparable damage...

YardleyLabs
09-02-2009, 09:55 AM
Well, presumably the whole address will be accessible on-line to any wishing to view it. I will be stunned and very upset if contains anything suggestive of politics. Bush often went to schools and either spoke to assemblies or read stories in class (The 9/11 situation may have been unfortunate, but the intent was good).

code3retrievers
09-02-2009, 10:17 AM
It would be perfectly fine if it is only about encouraging students to work hard and study history but from what I understand the education department plans on giving lesson plans and activities that will somewhat focus on Obama. Such as, what can you do to help President Obama.

"For grades 7-12, the Department of Education suggests teachers prepare by excerpting quotes from Obama's speeches on education for their students to contemplate -- and ask as questions such as "Why does President Obama want to speak with us today? How will he inspire us? How will he challenge us?"

If it was phrased what can you do to help you country that would be fine but when you continually inject Obama everywhere that sounds more like indoctrination.

He is the president of the United States not the pied piper.

Hoosier
09-02-2009, 10:24 AM
Yup, she would be scarred for life it she had to listen to the President for 5 minutes, encouraging her to work hard, study, and stay in school. Irreparable damage...

That's what her mother, father, teachers, and family are for. What she doesn't need is a politician who hangs out with questionable characters, and has values that are the polar opposite of my families, coming off as someone who we as a family want to listen to.

Buzz
09-02-2009, 10:26 AM
It would be perfectly fine if it is only about encouraging students to work hard and study history but from what I understand the education department plans on giving lesson plans and activities that will somewhat focus on Obama. Such as, what can you do to help President Obama.




Here are the suggested activities for grades 7-12.

http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/7-12.pdf

Buzz
09-02-2009, 10:39 AM
That's what her mother, father, teachers, and family are for. What she doesn't need is a politician who hangs out with questionable characters, and has values that are the polar opposite of my families, coming off as someone who we as a family want to listen to.

I doubt if your kids are really the ones being targeted as in need of motivation. Or my 10 year old daughter for example who spent a week at camp invention (by her own choice) doing math and science projects, and read several books. I imagine there are plenty of kids however that need some motivation, say in inner city Detroit for example.

Hew
09-02-2009, 12:11 PM
I did answer that. So you did. You were editing your post as I was responding to the original post that didn't answer the question. Thanks for the answer.

Where did you get, "telling them the importance of listening to what the President says and then having the children discuss way in which they could help the President?" It isn't in the letter from the secretary. Either you made it up, or heard it from someone who made it up. Or there's a third option I know you haven't considered...you don't know wtf you're even pimping. Look at the PreK though 6th grade govt. suggestions and you'll find both examples: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301/President-Obama’s-Address-to-Students-Across-America-September-8-2009

----------

YardleyLabs
09-02-2009, 01:06 PM
Or there's a third option I know you haven't considered...you don't know wtf you're even pimping. Look at the PreK though 6th grade govt. suggestions and you'll find both examples: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301...ptember-8-2009 (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301/President-Obama%E2%80%99s-Address-to-Students-Across-America-September-8-2009)

Hew,

On the assumption that the President's is going to be exactly as advertised -- an effort to encourage students to set goals, plan, and persevere -- what objections do you have to the planned curriculum? Are those objections specific to Obama or ones you would have with any President making a presentation for school children?

Buzz
09-02-2009, 01:16 PM
----------Or there's a third option I know you haven't considered...you don't know wtf you're even pimping. Look at the PreK though 6th grade govt. suggestions and you'll find both examples: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10582301...ptember-8-2009


No, I read both lesson plans. I linked the 7-12 because the exercises are more meaningful. The k-6 appear more geared toward trying to inform the students to who this guy that's talking to them actually is, since most kids in say k-3 or 4 don't know who the heck the president is.

And I'm not pimping anything. I'm pointing out the standard operating procedures behind the GOP in stirring up fake controversies based on crap that they just plain made up. Such as:

"As the father of four children, I am absolutely appalled that taxpayer dollars are being used to spread President Obama's socialist ideology. The idea that school children across our nation will be forced to watch the President justify his plans for government-run health care, banks, and automobile companies, increasing taxes on those who create jobs, and racking up more debt than any other President, is not only infuriating, but goes against beliefs of the majority of Americans, while bypassing American parents through an invasive abuse of power."

Greer flat out MADE THAT CRAP UP. If you have one shred of evidence that he didn't, I'd be happy to see it.

TXduckdog
09-02-2009, 01:27 PM
Buzz....how about this little gem of a statement of "bat crap" craziness.....perhaps you missed it.

In advance of this address, we would like to share the following resources: a menu of classroom activities for students in grades preK-6 and for students in grades 7-12. These are ideas developed by and for teachers to help engage students and stimulate discussion on the importance of education in their lives.

Now I wonder just who the developers were....the likes of Ayers, Alinsky...or perhaps the usual drivel put out by the NEA?

There it is....the purpose for the whole letter.....if you don't think every panty waisted school board isn't going to snap this up....you haven't been to a school board meeting lately.

The resources are ideas like taking notes on his speech, identifying key words and ideas and taking phrases from the speech and posting them on classroom walls. But there will be "follow-on" resources.

What is this? China, N. Korea?

Why the hell does this President feel the need to address school children? You'd think he has enough on his plate with everything else going on.

We need to listen VERY closely to exactly what he says in his speech.....available of course on ONLY the White House website.

Maybe it is only work hard, stay in school, get a job. We'll see.

Buzz
09-02-2009, 01:33 PM
In advance of this address, we would like to share the following resources: a menu of classroom activities for students in grades preK-6 and for students in grades 7-12. These are ideas developed by and for teachers to help engage students and stimulate discussion on the importance of education in their lives.



I put a link out for the 7-12. Hew linked to the k-6 material suggestions.

Doesn't bother a bit. Wouldn't have bothered me if Bush did it.

I think you're channeling Sara Palin, or possibly Glenn Beck. I've been watching Glenn Beck lately. I think he needs to get on some meds.

Goose
09-02-2009, 02:45 PM
When our Dear Leader entered the White House
Even mountains and rivers rejoiced.
To have seen the Great Teacher Obama, is the fulfillment of our brightest wish. Ah!
How many nights did we dream of you, ah!
Burning tears of happiness
Longed for day by day
Hoped for year by year, ah!
Today we students are at your side.

The golden sun is rising over our Dear Leader.

TXduckdog
09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Well, presumably the whole address will be accessible on-line to any wishing to view it. I will be stunned and very upset if contains anything suggestive of politics. Bush often went to schools and either spoke to assemblies or read stories in class (The 9/11 situation may have been unfortunate, but the intent was good).


I would agree with you Jeff.

But doesn't this kind of smack of manipulating kids in hopes of establishing a cult personality...in a political way?

Kids are going to be influenced by something like this and I just think the President of the USA has more important issues on his plate than to pander to kids, right now.

The timing of this thing is very strange.....all of a sudden.....child education comes springing out of no-where. This is one helluva curve ball.

I've read the 'resources' mentioned in the letter and in and of themselves, they look pretty tame....except the part about putting parts of the speech up on a wall. This whole thing reeks of political manipulation....and I'm trying to be objective and give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

TXduckdog
09-02-2009, 03:58 PM
I put a link out for the 7-12. Hew linked to the k-6 material suggestions.

Doesn't bother a bit. Wouldn't have bothered me if Bush did it.

I think you're channeling Sara Palin, or possibly Glenn Beck. I've been watching Glenn Beck lately. I think he needs to get on some meds.


Buzz

Me, channeling Sarah Palin? I can think of a few other things I'd like to be doing with Ms Palin but channeling ain't one of them. Va Va Voom!! =)

Hew
09-02-2009, 04:02 PM
Hew,

On the assumption that the President's is going to be exactly as advertised -- an effort to encourage students to set goals, plan, and persevere -- what objections do you have to the planned curriculum? Are those objections specific to Obama or ones you would have with any President making a presentation for school children?
I would be inclined to be against any President speaking en masse to every public school child in America. It appears unseemly. Orwellian. Kim Jong Il-like. It is completely different than a President standing up in front of a school assembly or speaking at a commencement ceremony.

As for the curriculum, at face value, it seems innocuous enough. But I have my doubts that the speech will be non-political. I don't expect anything overtly "vote for me" political, but I'm afraid there will be an agenda beyond imparting to kids a generic life lesson. My spidey senses tingle when the Education Secretary promotes the speech with a bunch of superfluous political rah-rah BS (as you duly noted). Moreover, while both parties are adept at rhetoric, the Democrats in particular have a proven track record of utilzing (ahem...whoring :() children in public to promote their political agenda.

TXduckdog
09-02-2009, 04:12 PM
I would be inclined to be against any President speaking en masse to every public school child in America. It appears unseemly. Orwellian. Kim Jong Il-like. It is completely different than a President standing up in front of a school assembly or speaking at a commencement ceremony.

As for the curriculum, at face value, it seems innocuous enough. But I have my doubts that the speech will be non-political. I don't expect anything overtly "vote for me" political, but I'm afraid there will be an agenda beyond imparting to kids a generic life lesson. My spidey senses tingle when the Education Secretary promotes the speech with a bunch of superfluous political rah-rah BS (as you duly noted). Moreover, while both parties are adept at rhetoric, the Democrats in particular have a proven track record of utilzing (ahem...whoring :() children in public to promote their political agenda.



Wonder if he'll bring up national service again.....the community organizer....er, I mean the Peace Corp stuff?

Hew
09-02-2009, 04:14 PM
No, I read both lesson plans. Perhaps you should have read them both again before calling me a liar. ;-) I linked the 7-12 because the exercises are more meaningful. The k-6 appear more geared toward trying to inform the students to who this guy that's talking to them actually is, since most kids in say k-3 or 4 don't know who the heck the president is.

And I'm not pimping anything. I'm pointing out the standard operating procedures behind the GOP in stirring up fake controversies based on crap that they just plain made up. Such as:

"As the father of four children, I am absolutely appalled that taxpayer dollars are being used to spread President Obama's socialist ideology. The idea that school children across our nation will be forced to watch the President justify his plans for government-run health care, banks, and automobile companies, increasing taxes on those who create jobs, and racking up more debt than any other President, is not only infuriating, but goes against beliefs of the majority of Americans, while bypassing American parents through an invasive abuse of power."

Greer flat out MADE THAT CRAP UP. If you have one shred of evidence that he didn't, I'd be happy to see it. If you have one shred of evidence that I supported, believed, cared or commented on what Greer wrote I'd be even happier to see it. I commented on what I found unappealing about Obama's pending speech. You demonstrated that you didn't really even know what was in the curriculum when you erroneously claimed that I made up my objections. So Greer makes up sh!t to oppose the speech and you make up sh!t to defend it. And the substantial distinction is....what?

----------------------

Buzz
09-02-2009, 04:33 PM
Hew, please show me where I called you a liar.:confused:

I originally started the thread to point out that Greer was trying to cause hysteria based on $h!t that he just made up. I really don't care much about the arguments for or against Obama talking to school children. I do care about people in leadership positions making $h!t up.

Hew
09-02-2009, 04:37 PM
Hew, please show me where I called you a liar.:confused:


You wrote: "Either you made it up, or heard it from someone who made it up."

My bad. You did give me the option of either being a liar or repeating a lie.

YardleyLabs
09-02-2009, 05:00 PM
I would be inclined to be against any President speaking en masse to every public school child in America. It appears unseemly. Orwellian. Kim Jong Il-like. It is completely different than a President standing up in front of a school assembly or speaking at a commencement ceremony.
I will admit that I actually share a little bit of this although there is nothing compelling schools to use the material in any way. I suspect that, if I were an administrator, I might not make any decision on broadcasting until after I had already seen the tape as opposed to broadcasting it live. But then I also am opposed to universal requirements concerning the pledge of allegiance, believe pep rallies should be banned during school hours, and am vehemently opposed to prayer of any kind in public schools;-).


As for the curriculum, at face value, it seems innocuous enough. But I have my doubts that the speech will be non-political. I don't expect anything overtly "vote for me" political, but I'm afraid there will be an agenda beyond imparting to kids a generic life lesson. My spidey senses tingle when the Education Secretary promotes the speech with a bunch of superfluous political rah-rah BS (as you duly noted). Moreover, while both parties are adept at rhetoric, the Democrats in particular have a proven track record of utilzing (ahem...whoring :() children in public to promote their political agenda.
This, I think may be bias in the eyes of the beholder. I would have said Republicans are the bigger culprits. It may well be a coin toss. Personally, I will definitely check out the speech when it is posted and we can revive this conversation then.

Buzz
09-02-2009, 05:04 PM
You wrote: "Either you made it up, or heard it from someone who made it up."

My bad. You did give me the option of either being a liar or repeating a lie.

You have to always allow for the option that the person you're dealing with could be misinformed. I don't think Greer is misinformed, I think he's a liar.


I was commenting on this statement that you made:



Would you have been OK to have had Bush address every public school child and telling them the importance of listening to what the President says and then having the children discuss ways in which they could help the President?

I had read all the curriculum suggestions and nowhere did I see that they were to discuss ways in which they could help the president. I didn't see anything that in there anywhere. In fact this is the only instance I can find of the word "help."

What can students do to help in our schools?

I assumed that by asking me if I'd be upset if Bush asked children to discuss way in which they could help the president, you were saying that the curriculum stated that this is what Obama would do. Maybe I was wrong...

Mike Noel
09-02-2009, 05:26 PM
I would be inclined to be against any President speaking en masse to every public school child in America. It appears unseemly. Orwellian. Kim Jong Il-like. It is completely different than a President standing up in front of a school assembly or speaking at a commencement ceremony.


Or more "Chavez-like".....

http://www.heritage.org/research/education/ednotes88.cfm

YardleyLabs
09-02-2009, 05:32 PM
To step back a bit to when I commented that I felt that the second paragraph of the Secretary's letter was unnecessary and inappropriate. Buzz replied:


Maybe unnecessary, but I don't know about inappropriate. All she's doing is tooting his horn a little, stating that despite the major challenges facing the president, he is still focused and committed to education.

...
I think what made me uncomfortable with that paragraph is the same thing that make Hew feel that it is a little creepy for the President -- regardless of politics -- to be speaking to all the nation's school children during class/assembly time and for Paul Kartes, in the other thread, to be voicing similar reservations.

Once nominated and confirmed, the Secretary of Education has a position responsibility to act as a voice for Education, not as a voice for the President. I know it would be naive to think this will ever happen completely, but it is an important distinction for all Cabinet positions and for certain other major governmental positions (Chairman of the Fed, Supreme Court Justice, etc.). By asking for people to research the President's former speeches on education -- most of which were given on the campaign trail -- and repeatedly mentioning Obama by name, the Secretary comes across as a political hack tooting the President's horn. That is not a new offense from Washington under either party, but it is still an offense.

Having said that, I think that the President, as an office and a symbol, should have something to say about education at a very high level and that this President has demonstrated a willingness to deliver a message of personal responsibility that often get lost in discussions about government. Beyond that, for many of our citizens he may awaken the notion, for the first time in their lives, that ours is a nation where anyone can aspire to become President (at least, as long as they can provide the appropriate birth certificate:D).

Eisenhower, in the 1950's, made education and particularly education in the sciences and math, a truly national priority. That type of leadership was important and made a difference. I believe that we are now in a situation where education needs a similar emphasis. We are falling behind as a country and a big part of our problem is that both parents and children seem to think that education is someone else's responsibility. We are too passive, and too willing to substitute dogma for thought.

If exhortations from the President, reinforced with appropriate lesson plans, can actually help focus on the values of personal responsibility and perseverance, I would welcome that message from anyone. If such a message becomes entangled in a cult of personality, it deserves repudiation by all. I will listen to the message and hope that Obama comes down on the right side.

EDIT: BTW, when I was young, Eisenhower's photo was in every classroom in my public school. When I moved to PA, Reagan's picture was posted in my daughter's classroom. Were those photos appropriate? Would photos of Obama be appropriate? I don't know if schools still post pictures of the President -- now I feel old again.:(

dnf777
09-02-2009, 05:35 PM
Oh, the outrage. Buzz, I'm sure you would have been just fine with every public school child being propped in front of a TV to hear George Bush tell them why it is important to listen to what the President says and then being asked by their teachers to come up with ways in which they can help the President. Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggghhhhhhhhht. :rolleyes:

btw, Arne Duncan is a man.

If the kids get to ask questions, I hope Bush would have them scripted or have someone to explain them to him. :-P:-P

Is our kids learnin' regards,
dave

Hew
09-02-2009, 09:09 PM
Buzz,

A recap of our discussion.... I said I didn't like some specific items in the curriculum. You said those items didn't exist in the curriculum and that I either made them up or repeated somebody else's made up story. I provided a link to the curriculum that had the specific items that I stated and that you denied existed. I don't see how all of that is apparently more complicated than Chinese arithmetic.

In the link I previously provided you'll find the following written in the curriculum:

Third bullet point in Before the Speech:


Why is it important that we listen to the President and other elected officials, like the mayor, senators, members of congress or the governor. Why is what they say important?


2nd page, 2nd bullet point in Extension of the Speech:


Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president.

YardleyLabs
09-02-2009, 09:14 PM
Buzz,

A recap of our discussion.... I said I didn't like some specific items in the curriculum. You said those items didn't exist in the curriculum and that I either made them up or repeated somebody else's made up story. I provided a link to the curriculum that had the specific items that I stated and that you denied existed. I don't see how all of that is apparently more complicated than Chinese arithmetic.

In the link I previously provided you'll find the following written in the curriculum:

Third bullet point in Before the Speech:



2nd page, 2nd bullet point in Extension of the Speech:

Fair enough. I don't like those items either. I always taught my children to trust their own brains and not to assume that someone knew what they were talking about just because they help a position of authority.

Buzz
09-03-2009, 08:24 AM
Fair enough. I don't like those items either. I always taught my children to trust their own brains and not to assume that someone knew what they were talking about just because they help a position of authority.

No, it's NOT FAIR ENOUGH. If you would read the PDF files from the official website, you would see that the second bullet point is NOT WORDED THE WAY HEW HAS IT!!!! I don't know where he got that from, BUT IT ISN'T IN THE OFFICIAL CURRICULUM!!! That's what I'm talking about, and that's why I started this thread in the first place. Someone is making crap up, and it's what I see happening over and over and over in political discussion in this country. Tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth, the sin that a$$hat John Griffing accuses Obama of in his nutty article posted in the other thread, The Prince of Lies. It's a tactic that the GOP has developed into a fine art. The actual wording is as follows, and you can go to the link that I provide at the government website to verify it:

http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/prek-6.pdf


Extension of the Speech
Teachers could extend learning by having students:

• Create posters of their goals. Posters could be formatted in quadrants, puzzle pieces, or trails marked with the following labels: personal, academic, community, and country. Each area could be labeled with three steps for achieving goals in that area. It might make sense to focus first on personal and academic goals so that community and country goals can be more readily created.

• Write letters to themselves about how they can achieve their short‐term and long‐term education goals. Teachers would collect and redistribute these letters at an appropriate later date to enable students to monitor their progress.

• Write goals on colored index cards or precut designs to post around the classroom.

• Interview one another and share goals with the class to create a supportive community.

• Participate in school‐wide incentive programs or contests for those students who achieve their goals.

• Write about their goals in a variety of genres, such as poems, songs, and personal essays.

• Create artistic projects based on the themes of their goals.

• Graph individual progress toward goals.

It doesn't say one word about helping the president. It's about making them think about what they can do to achieve their goals, EDUCATIONAL GOALS!

Now, lets look at the section, before the speech.


Before the Speech

• Teachers can build background knowledge about the President of the United States and his speech by reading books about presidents and Barack Obama. Teachers could motivate students by asking the following questions:
Who is the President of the United States?
What do you think it takes to be president?
To whom do you think the president is going to be speaking?
Why do you think he wants to speak to you?
What do you think he will say to you?

• Teachers can ask students to imagine that they are delivering a speech to all of the students in the United States.
If you were the president, what would you tell students?
What can students do to help in our schools?
Teachers can chart ideas about what students would say.

• Why is it important that we listen to the president and other elected officials, like the mayor, senators, members of congress, or the governor? Why is what they say important?


We can debate about whether it's ok to build knowledge about the president by reading books about presidents and Obama. Maybe you want your kids to grow up to be the running joke, "man on the street" where you ask them questions that you'd think anyone should know, and they are clueless.

We can also debate about the wisdom of teaching them that it's important to listen to elected officials. The fact is they said elected officials, not Democrat elected officials. If you want your kids to grow up and not listen to what their government is saying and not doing their civic duty by not educating themselves about what's going on and making informed decisions before they go to the ballot box, that's fine. I don't want that for my daughter.

There is a difference between LISTENING TO THEM and BLINDLY DOING WHAT THEY TELL YOU TO DO. I guess we can debate all day about whether it was worded by a lawyer in such a way that it couldn't be taken more than one way or not.

Buzz
09-03-2009, 11:16 AM
I see why I can't seem to figure out what the heck Hew is talking about. He is using a document from an outfit called docstoc. I don't know anything about these guys, but this is from their website:


Docstoc is the premier online community and marketplace to find and share professional documents. Docstoc provides the platform to upload and share documents with the world, and serves as a vast repository of free and for purchase legal, business, financial, technical, and educational documents that can be easily searched, previewed and downloaded.

Docstoc also provides technology through various APIs and Widgets to help facilitate the sharing and promotion of documents across the web. The site has popularized the use of embedding documents throughout the blogosphere and mainstream media. You can learn more about embedding documents here: http://blog.docstoc.com/embed-documents-on-docstoc-into-your-blog-or-webiste.html

Docstoc, Inc was founded by Jason Nazar (bio) and Alon Shwartz (bio). The company was selected in September of 2007 to debut its product at the prestigious TechCrunch40 Conference. The product was subsequently launched to the public in November 2007.

Docstoc is a venture backed company (Rustic Canyon) and received funding from the co-founders/investors in MySpace, LowerMyBills, Mp3.com, PriceGrabber and Baidu. Their legal counsel is DLA Piper. The company is located in Santa Monica, CA.

I don't know how we can have a legitimate debate based on a document that was uploaded by God knows who onto an outfit like this. I am arguing from the ORIGINAL document from the Department of Education website. The ORIGINAL document for "classroom activities" can be found here:

http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html

I believe that document was tampered with and loaded onto docstoc so that nut cases could link to it, instead of the ORIGINAL, so they could cause a controversy where none exists.

Be careful about what information you believe from the internets.

Hew, where did you get that link from? I would love to see the source.

Dave

YardleyLabs
09-03-2009, 11:23 AM
I see why I can't seem to figure out what the heck Hew is talking about. He is using a document from an outfit called docstoc. I don't know anything about these guys, but this is from their website:



I don't know how we can have a legitimate debate based on a document that was uploaded by God knows who onto an outfit like this. I am arguing from the ORIGINAL document from the Department of Education website. The ORIGINAL document for "classroom activities" can be found here:

http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html

I believe that document was tampered with and loaded onto docstoc so that nut cases could link to it, instead of the ORIGINAL, so they could cause a controversy where none exists.

Be careful about what information you believe from the internets.

Hew, where did you get that link from? I would love to see the source.

Dave

I suspect that you would actually find that the first documents released were the ones uploaded to docstor and that these were subsequently revised on the Education Department web site. You are correct that the official current documents are the ones on the Education Department web site. By assuming a nefarious attempt to distort those documents I think you are risking falling into the same conspiracy theory mindset that distorts so much of the right wing commentary.

Hew
09-03-2009, 11:34 AM
I suspect that you would actually find that the first documents released were the ones uploaded to docstor and that these were subsequently revised on the Education Department web site. You are correct that the official current documents are the ones on the Education Department web site. By assuming a nefarious attempt to distort those documents I think you are risking falling into the same conspiracy theory mindset that distorts so much of the right wing commentary.
Exactly. Someone wrote on docstor that the Dept. of Ed. has changed the document three times in the last two days (I don't know with certainty that that is true, but the evidence suggests that they've changed it at least once).

So no, Buzz, you're not arguing based on the ORIGINAL document. You're arguing on the current document. Hopefully the Dept. of Education doesn't hang you out to dry again by changing it. ;-)

As an aside, every version (so far) has the reference to the importance of listening to the President that you also denied existed.

Buzz
09-03-2009, 11:35 AM
I suspect that you would actually find that the first documents released were the ones uploaded to docstor and that these were subsequently revised on the Education Department web site. You are correct that the official current documents are the ones on the Education Department web site. By assuming a nefarious attempt to distort those documents I think you are risking falling into the same conspiracy theory mindset that distorts so much of the right wing commentary.

Then ask yourself. Why would someone go to the trouble of uploading a document on to docstoc and link to that, instead of the original? It would have been MUCH easier to copy and paste the link to the Department of Education web document. Unless of course the original document doesn't support your case.

Buzz
09-03-2009, 11:38 AM
Exactly. Someone wrote on docstor that the Dept. of Ed. has changed the document three times in the last two days (I don't know with certainty that that is true, but the evidence suggests that they've changed it at least once).



I would like to see the evidence that this person has that the document has been changed at least twice.

Hew
09-03-2009, 11:41 AM
I would like to see the evidence that this person has that the document has been changed at least twice.
I'll get right on that. While I'm busy with that, maybe you could post the version that doesn't have the reference to the importance of listening to what the President says.

Buzz
09-03-2009, 11:45 AM
I'll get right on that. While I'm busy with that, maybe you could post the version that doesn't have the reference to the importance of listening to what the President says.

I downloaded the file. It says it was created yesterday at 6:08 PM, so apparently it has changed. The first time I read it was last Tuesday.

Buzz
09-03-2009, 11:49 AM
By the way, the speech will be available to anyone who wants to watch it and pick it apart:

Will the address be available in some form after the original broadcast date and time?

Downloadable video of the speech will be made available at http://www.whitehouse.gov/mediaresources/ as well as on www.ed.gov. C-SPAN.org will provide archived and "on-demand" viewing options.

YardleyLabs
09-03-2009, 12:13 PM
I downloaded the file. It says it was created yesterday at 6:08 PM, so apparently it has changed. The first time I read it was last Tuesday.
The version on docstoc was uploaded on 9/1/2009 and predates the version on the Education Department web site.

TXduckdog
09-03-2009, 12:14 PM
Why won't the text of the speech be released beforehand.

We all know there is one. Obama can't read the newspaper if it wasn't on a teleprompter. =)

badbullgator
09-03-2009, 01:10 PM
Indoctrination begins.
I can’t wait for the obongo posters to go up in the class rooms




http://www.mstrum.com/onmywaytokorea/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/north-korean-propaganda-kids-3.jpg (http://www.mstrum.com/onmywaytokorea/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/north-korean-propaganda-kids-3.jpg)
Top: Let’s become youth with the never-ending faithfulness to the Great Leader Kim Jung-Il


http://www.mstrum.com/onmywaytokorea/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/north-korean-propaganda-kids-1.jpg (http://www.mstrum.com/onmywaytokorea/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/north-korean-propaganda-kids-1.jpg)
Hurray for “the idea of social education”


http://www.mstrum.com/onmywaytokorea/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/north-korean-propaganda-more-11.jpg (http://www.mstrum.com/onmywaytokorea/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/north-korean-propaganda-more-11.jpg)
Father General is our eternal sun
아버지 대원수님은 영원한 우리의 해님

Goose
09-03-2009, 01:16 PM
Will there be Q/A after Dear Leader speaks?

If so I'll have my daughter ask:

1) Mr. President, what region of Kenya were you born in.
2) Does anybody in your Cabinet have to pay taxes.
3) If my grandmother ever gets cancer should we just give her a pill and tell her to suck it up?

road kill
09-03-2009, 01:18 PM
Will there be Q/A after Dear Leader speaks?

If so I'll have my daughter ask:

1) Mr. President, what region of Kenya were you born in.
2) Does anybody in your Cabinet have to pay taxes.
3) If my grandmother ever gets cancer should we just give her a pill and tell her to suck it up?

Don't forget:
4) What's a Czar, and who elects them??

Buzz
09-03-2009, 01:23 PM
The version on docstoc was uploaded on 9/1/2009 and predates the version on the Education Department web site.

I downloaded the microsoft word document from both docstoc and the Education Department website. The one from the Education Department says it was saved by Authorised User on 9/2/09. The one from docstoc says it was saved by Alan Smigielski User on 8/30/09. Microsoft Word says that both files are revision #2.

Steve Amrein
09-03-2009, 01:32 PM
I have a question why oh why does the President feel the need to tell kids to stay in school, work and study hard when every person on the school system payroll should be doing this. Maybe if at the end of the speech he read off the names of school superintendents that have failed to make it possible for teachers to give kids a proper education.

Hew
09-03-2009, 03:40 PM
The one from docstoc says it was saved by Alan Smigielski User on 8/30/09.
I owe you an apology, Buzz.

I looked up Alan Smigielski on Wikipedia:



Smigielski, known as "The Polish Hammer" on various right-wing message boards, is known to spend hours tinkering with obscure Federal documents and then posting his doctored documents as if they were the real thing. Smigielski once bragged, "When it comes to document forgery, Dan Rather is my biatch."

Mr. Smigielski listed his hobbies on the Free Republic message board as, "throwing empty beer cans at minority kids while they wait for their school bus, running onto construction sites and screaming, "INS!!!, INS!!! Vamanos!!!" and working at his local Republican National Committee office as a volunteer."

You were right! A total right-wing screw job trying to disrupt the President's noble message to our chillrens. ;)

YardleyLabs
09-03-2009, 03:51 PM
I owe you an apology, Buzz.

I looked up Alan Smigielski on Wikipedia:


You were right! A total right-wing screw job trying to disrupt the President's noble message to our chillrens. ;)
Wow! And here I though Alan Smigielski was one of the authorized Education Department contacts for publishing and uploading documents as indicated at http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7753258/Microsoft-Word and http://www.ed.gov/internal/wwwstds.html#appB.

;-);-);-)

Buzz
09-03-2009, 04:14 PM
I owe you an apology, Buzz.

I looked up Alan Smigielski on Wikipedia:


You were right! A total right-wing screw job trying to disrupt the President's noble message to our chillrens. ;)


No, I heard on the radio a little while ago that the White House admitted to changing the classroom activities. They said that the first draft was in-artfully worded...

So I guess I owe you an apology. I have to admit that it was giving me fits, you throwing out bullet points suggesting the kids find ways to help the president, and me looking at the Education Department website and seeing no such wording.

I still think it's nutty to be so enraged that the president wants to talk to school children about education.

Hew
09-04-2009, 04:53 AM
Thanks, Buzz. I appreciate it.

I was also confused and wasn't aware that it had been revised. I couldn't figure out why you couldn't capeche what I was saying.

Hew
09-04-2009, 04:54 AM
Wow! And here I though Alan Smigielski was one of the authorized Education Department contacts for publishing and uploading documents as indicated at http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7753258/Microsoft-Word and http://www.ed.gov/internal/wwwstds.html#appB.

;-);-);-)
Oh, you mean that Alan Smigielski. :D

road kill
09-04-2009, 07:08 AM
When the school your children attend goes on a field trip don't you, as a parent, have to sign a permission slip?

Then why wouldn't this field trip require one?

If a parent would object to this, they should have the right to pull the child out of this session.

badbullgator
09-04-2009, 08:35 AM
Our School board has "kicked" obong out of the classroom

http://www.news-press.com/article/20090904/NEWS0104/90903077/1075&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

Read the last line of the article. The guy says this is a chance for kids to get to know obongo in a social setting. Knowing who obongos friends are I have to say I would not want my kids to know him in a social setting any more than I would want them to know a crack dealer in a social setting

TXduckdog
09-04-2009, 08:50 AM
School districts all over my area are opting to put the video of the "talk" on the school website instead of pre-empting regular class time for the event.

Most often cited reason is to allow parents and children to view the talk together.

Sounds good to me.

Buzz
09-04-2009, 09:09 PM
When the school your children attend goes on a field trip don't you, as a parent, have to sign a permission slip?

Then why wouldn't this field trip require one?

If a parent would object to this, they should have the right to pull the child out of this session.

It's a liability issue because to go on a field trip they are taking the kids off of school property.

Gerry Clinchy
09-05-2009, 04:04 AM
I still think it's nutty to be so enraged that the president wants to talk to school children about education.

This was my first reaction as well.

Bush had set a precedent for sending an educational message to school children as well. Some of us old enough may remember JFK's effort to promote a physical fitness program throughout schools as well. So, it's not new for a Pres to become involved with reaching out to school students.

I think what set people off on this was the effort to prescribe the message be shown in all schools at a certain time, and provide a curriculum to go along with it.

Evidently, along the way, as the curriculum evolved, it was more of WH input than Dept of Ed input. Don't know if it happened, but heard mention that Dept of Ed removed its name and inserted WH instead.

I think it will be real interesting to see the final draft of this speech after the words are "recalibrated" and the "inartful" wording is more artfully worded. I'm still not quite sure I understand how a word(s) can be "calibrated", unless one is referring to words of measurements like inches, pounds, etc.

Buzz
09-06-2009, 06:55 PM
Via Dave Weigel, here is GOP stalwart Joe Scarborough, tweeting about the Stay-In-School Conspiracy and the intellectual decapitation of his own party:

http://washingtonindependent.com/57766/joe-scarborough-takes-on-the-gop


Dear GOP, argue the issues and avoid the insults...or just shut up. Enough with the conspiracy theories. Shouldn't our beliefs be enough?

GOP leaders in my home state are accusing the POTUS of trying to "indoctrinate America’s children to his socialist agenda." Seriously?

WHERE ARE THE NATIONAL GOP LEADERS SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THIS KIND OF HYSTERIA?

Indoctrination of socialism? The president as a racist? Death panels? Seriously? That's all you've got? If so, it's time for you to go home

I'm just naive enough to believe that a party that shows restraint at home, restraint abroad and respect for the Constitution wins elections

Perhaps that party just doesn't exist.

TXduckdog
09-07-2009, 05:23 PM
Buzz...I noticed you didn't say a GOP Conservative stalwart...there is a BIG difference.