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gman0046
09-08-2009, 07:50 PM
A vehicle at 15 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 800 gallons of gasoline a year. A vehicle at 25 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 480 gallons a year.

So, getting rid of each average Clunker will reduce US gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.

They claim 700,000 vehicles - so thats 224 million gallons per year.

That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil.

5 million barrels of oil is about 1/4 of one days US consumption.

And, 5 million barrels of oil costs about $350 million dollars at $75/bbl.

So, we all contributed to spending $3 billion to save $350 million.

AND THESE CLOWNS WANT TO RUN OUR HEALTH CARE????

dnf777
09-08-2009, 10:26 PM
A vehicle at 15 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 800 gallons of gasoline a year. A vehicle at 25 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 480 gallons a year.

So, getting rid of each average Clunker will reduce US gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.

They claim 700,000 vehicles - so thats 224 million gallons per year.

That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil.

5 million barrels of oil is about 1/4 of one days US consumption.

And, 5 million barrels of oil costs about $350 million dollars at $75/bbl.

So, we all contributed to spending $3 billion to save $350 million.

AND THESE CLOWNS WANT TO RUN OUR HEALTH CARE????

I don't know enough about the CFC program and all the facts to make a judgement right now. But I do know that what you present does not take into account all of the effects. GM has increased production, recalled workers, and this will result in parts suppliers increasing production. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's not as simple as you paint. Its not only about gallons of gasoline saved. Also, you assume a lot of facts that are "not in evidence". Who says the clunkers averaged 15mpg? Who said they only drive 12k per year? Economic issues are almost always more complex than four or five calculations and assumptions. I'm willing to listen though.

zeus3925
09-08-2009, 10:42 PM
The average car drives 15,000 miles/year.

Henry V
09-09-2009, 12:01 AM
Let's see, do you suppose that any of these cars will last more than one year? What is the calculation if they make it to 200,000 miles? It would appear to be $5.8 billion. If the price of oil is $100 per barrel it appears to be $7.7 billion.

Can someone double check the ratio used between gallons of gas and barrels of oil too?

I see this great piece of logic based entirely on short term thinking is making the rounds on the internets on many right wing websites. Please cut and paste more.

Gun_Dog2002
09-09-2009, 01:43 AM
I don't know about oil consumption but the clunkers program seem to involve mostly turning in American cars for Japanese cars. I knew I should have invested in Toyota....

/Paul

Bruce MacPherson
09-09-2009, 02:12 AM
I don't know enough about the CFC program and all the facts to make a judgement right now. But I do know that what you present does not take into account all of the effects. GM has increased production, recalled workers, and this will result in parts suppliers increasing production. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's not as simple as you paint. Its not only about gallons of gasoline saved. Also, you assume a lot of facts that are "not in evidence". Who says the clunkers averaged 15mpg? Who said they only drive 12k per year? Economic issues are almost always more complex than four or five calculations and assumptions. I'm willing to listen though.

You spend a lot of time trying to determine how you feel about stuff don't you? The CFC program was an unmitigated disaster for the US taxpayer no matter what assumptions you want to make.

helencalif
09-09-2009, 03:50 AM
I thought one of the reasons for the cash for clunkers program was to help modest income folks get out of their old gas guzzling clunkers into more economical transportation.

The "clunkers" I saw on TV looked, well, like they were pretty nice cars and not really beat up old clunkers. I am wondering if the people who took advantage of this program were not so poor folks and that they were people who could afford a new car and simply took advantage of the giveaway to get better than blue book trade in.

The poor folks seem to still be driving their old clunkers. They couldn't afford to buy a new car no matter what they got as a trade in for their clunker.

Helen Graves

dnf777
09-09-2009, 06:03 AM
You spend a lot of time trying to determine how you feel about stuff don't you?

What's wrong with thinking about issues and trying to educate one's self? I don't rely on talking heads to spoon feed me. I'll try to dumb-down and fit in if that's what you suggest? :D

TN_LAB
09-09-2009, 07:00 AM
I think the cash for clunkers program is/was silly.

However, it's a little more complicated than the simple equation of oil consumption.

Like a wise fellow used to say...."basing one's results of a complex situation on one single variable is what they call voodoo economics."

road kill
09-09-2009, 08:00 AM
I thought one of the reasons for the cash for clunkers program was to help modest income folks get out of their old gas guzzling clunkers into more economical transportation.

The "clunkers" I saw on TV looked, well, like they were pretty nice cars and not really beat up old clunkers. I am wondering if the people who took advantage of this program were not so poor folks and that they were people who could afford a new car and simply took advantage of the giveaway to get better than blue book trade in.

The poor folks seem to still be driving their old clunkers. They couldn't afford to buy a new car no matter what they got as a trade in for their clunker.

Helen Graves

Maybe the could have upgraded to one of the nicer "clunkers" that were traded in.

But alas, there were destroyed!!

Pure genius!!:D

Mike Noel
09-09-2009, 08:16 AM
I don't know enough about the CFC program and all the facts to make a judgement right now. But I do know that what you present does not take into account all of the effects. GM has increased production, recalled workers, and this will result in parts suppliers increasing production. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's not as simple as you paint. Its not only about gallons of gasoline saved. Also, you assume a lot of facts that are "not in evidence". Who says the clunkers averaged 15mpg? Who said they only drive 12k per year? Economic issues are almost always more complex than four or five calculations and assumptions. I'm willing to listen though.

And they will be called in long enough to restock the dealers....then we will be right back where we were before CFC and I imagine most of them layed off again. It will take another CFC to sell enough cars to have another round of substantial re-calls of workers.

CFC, while a nice short term shot in the arm for the industry, does nothing for the long term fundamentals of that business. You can apply that to any business....we are about to see the same thing for refrigerators. ;)

ducknwork
09-09-2009, 08:19 AM
I am still trying to figure out why MY money should help buy someone a new car...If I want to spend MY money on a new car, then dammit, I want it to be for ME to drive.
________
Extreme Vaporizer Review (http://extremevaporizer.net/)

Pete
09-09-2009, 08:30 AM
I remember the day when the goverment crushed all their old ww2 and vietnam jeeps and other viehicals,,,,,, because dam,,,,we dont want to compete with US auto makers. It was a huge waste of money then ,,,,and it is no different today.

At least back then we didit sell it to our enemies.
It makes me feel safe when our enemies make computer chips for our military aircraft.

This kind of horshit is so ingraned and spiderwebbed through american politics there is nothing left to do but get more tangled up.

Pete

Steve Amrein
09-09-2009, 09:22 AM
I don't know the background story but this morning on MSNBC's financial report they said it will be highly unlikely that GM and Chrysler will repay the bailout money.

I also read that many dealerships will go bankrupt waiting for the gooberment to reimburse them.


Once again this illustrates that we are stepping over dollars to pick up dimes.

zeus3925
09-09-2009, 09:34 AM
I am still trying to figure out why MY money should help buy someone a new car...If I want to spend MY money on a new car, then dammit, I want it to be for ME to drive.

You had your chance.

Steve Amrein
09-09-2009, 09:38 AM
You had your chance.

Thats right the Government is waaaaayyy smarter than you and knows how to spend YOUR money on someone else. Dont hold out for a thank you card.

Mike Noel
09-09-2009, 09:49 AM
You had your chance.

Not if his trade in was worth more than $4500.

Franco
09-09-2009, 09:51 AM
A vehicle at 15 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 800 gallons of gasoline a year. A vehicle at 25 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 480 gallons a year.

So, getting rid of each average Clunker will reduce US gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.

They claim 700,000 vehicles - so thats 224 million gallons per year.

That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil.

5 million barrels of oil is about 1/4 of one days US consumption.

And, 5 million barrels of oil costs about $350 million dollars at $75/bbl.

So, we all contributed to spending $3 billion to save $350 million.

AND THESE CLOWNS WANT TO RUN OUR HEALTH CARE????

First, the average trade in/upgrade was not 10mpg better. There are no averages available but the minimum requirement was an improvement of 4mpg!!!

Second, now the CFC is over, dealerships all across the coutry are in a major sales slump again as buyers have learned to buy only when there are substantial discounts.

WRL
09-09-2009, 10:43 AM
You had your chance.

Nope I didn't get a chance. My "clunker" didn't qualify and I have a relatively new vehicle. So, I can't really afford to trade in a paid off vehicle to have another payment.

The American way, deficit spending.

I'm sure that because my tax dollars went to pay for others cars, that because I could not use the program they will send me my $4500 just like all the folks that went in and used the program got.

Unfortunately, because I think ahead, don't get in over my head debt-wise I get screwed.

That's what makes Obama's speech yesterday stupid. He "preaches" do better for yourself, stay in school and take responsibility.....but the reality is, if you do that, then you get to pay for all the lazy-ass people who don't want to work, got in over their head debt-wise and can't or won't take responsibility for their own actions.

WRL

Steve Amrein
09-09-2009, 10:51 AM
Nope I didn't get a chance. My "clunker" didn't qualify and I have a relatively new vehicle. So, I can't really afford to trade in a paid off vehicle to have another payment.

The American way, deficit spending.

I'm sure that because my tax dollars went to pay for others cars, that because I could not use the program they will send me my $4500 just like all the folks that went in and used the program got.

Unfortunately, because I think ahead, don't get in over my head debt-wise I get screwed.

That's what makes Obama's speech yesterday stupid. He "preaches" do better for yourself, stay in school and take responsibility.....but the reality is, if you do that, then you get to pay for all the lazy-ass people who don't want to work, got in over their head debt-wise and can't or won't take responsibility for their own actions.

WRL

Amen brother

ducknwork
09-09-2009, 11:33 AM
You had your chance.

Sure did...:rolleyes:

Actually, unlike many who went and traded in their 'clunkers', I won't be getting a visit from the repo man in a few months. I am smart enough to buy only what I can afford...
________
Vaporizer (http://twitter.com/vaporizer)

zeus3925
09-09-2009, 01:25 PM
First, the average trade in/upgrade was not 10mpg better. There are no averages available but the minimum requirement was an improvement of 4mpg!!!



News reports say the average was 11 to 12 mpg improvement.

zeus3925
09-09-2009, 01:27 PM
Sure did...:rolleyes:

Actually, unlike many who went and traded in their 'clunkers', I won't be getting a visit from the repo man in a few months. I am smart enough to buy only what I can afford...

Save you nickles and dime and get a fresh repo at a discount.

K G
09-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Thats right the Government is waaaaayyy smarter than you and knows how to spend YOUR money on someone else. Dont hold out for a thank you card.

Sarge got his...nothing else matters....

kg

Franco
09-09-2009, 07:26 PM
News reports say the average was 11 to 12 mpg improvement.

The way the program was structured, a vehicle getting as little as 4mpg's would qualify. One could get the Government Assistance money by trading a vehilce getting 18mpg's for one that gets 22mpg's.

What they average per vehicle actually came out to, no one knows. Not the goobs nor the reporters. They can spin it anyway they want to. I just think everything about the program is bad for the American tax payer. The program was poorly written and for the money did NOt accomplish very much. But then again, look who we have running the show.

zeus3925
09-09-2009, 11:10 PM
Sarge got his...nothing else matters....

kg

What?? You think you are the only guys that pay taxes??


My tax money gets spent on a war in Iraq whose pretext was a fabrication. My tax money also went for the thoroughly useless Tennessee - Tombigbee canal so someone could float a hand full of Chris Crafts down it. My taxes have gone to build sports stadiums for billionaires with millionaire athletes.

I don't get farm subsides or oil drilling subsides. I don't get no bid contracts to build shoddy barracks or have it squandered on a bunch of inept hitmen. I don't get a write off for three Martini lunches.

Yeah. I got a measly $4500 of MY tax money back. Happy I did and I'm totally non repentant.

zeus3925
09-10-2009, 07:13 AM
FYI- In case you're worried:

http://freep.com/article/20090910/BUSINESS01/909100353/1318/Less-supply-is-good-news

K G
09-10-2009, 08:42 AM
What should I be worried about????

What that article fails to mention is the MILLIONS of dollars owed to dealerships by the government. I didn't use BILLIONS (close to $3, give or take) because no single dealership is owed that much. However, I know of at least three that are owed over $250k EACH and they haven't seen a dime of it yet. How long do you think those folks can operate with that sort of hole in their cash flow?

Believe what you want to believe, Sarge...

Oh, yeah...sorry...you don't care...:rolleyes:

kg

zeus3925
09-10-2009, 09:07 AM
What should I be worried about????

What that article fails to mention is the MILLIONS of dollars owed to dealerships by the government. I didn't use BILLIONS (close to $3, give or take) because no single dealership is owed that much. However, I know of at least three that are owed over $250k EACH and they haven't seen a dime of it yet. How long do you think those folks can operate with that sort of hole in their cash flow?

Believe what you want to believe, Sarge...

Oh, yeah...sorry...you don't care...:rolleyes:

kg
I am not responsible for the payment delay to your friends, the dealers. We merely took advantage of an opportunity offered to us.

The major reason for delay to the dealers is that the paperwork isn't in order. Ours was and it took 11 working days for payment to arrive. In the meantime, the dealer kept both vehicles.

Soon we will be seeing the USA in our Chevrolet.

Regards,

Steve Amrein
09-10-2009, 09:13 AM
I am not responsible for the payment delay to your friends, the dealers. We merely took advantage of an opportunity offered to us.

The major reason for delay to the dealers is that the paperwork isn't in order. Ours was and it took 11 working days for payment to arrive. In the meantime, the dealer kept both vehicles.

Soon we will be seeing the USA in our Chevrolet.

Regards,


As a stock holder of Government Motors I thank you for buying Amreican. To bad I wont get paid back from the great investment I did not have the option to make.

zeus3925
09-10-2009, 09:37 AM
As a stock holder of Government Motors I thank you for buying Amreican. To bad I wont get paid back from the great investment I did not have the option to make.

As a fellow involuntary stock holder, I share your concern. That's why I bought GM. The company has to make money if we are going to see our investment back.

Besides, the vehicle is elegant in its design and construction. It is the first product in years I am willing to buy from an American company, especially GM.

K G
09-10-2009, 12:32 PM
I am not responsible for the payment delay to your friends, the dealers. We merely took advantage of an opportunity offered to us.

The major reason for delay to the dealers is that the paperwork isn't in order. Ours was and it took 11 working days for payment to arrive. In the meantime, the dealer kept both vehicles.

Soon we will be seeing the USA in our Chevrolet.

Regards,

My friends? How 'bout all the friends you have at dealerships? You know...the ones you listed on another thread about this same topic? Oh...I know...as long as YOUR paperwork went through, all is well....at least you're consistent....if they (or other dealers) go out of business because of OTHER payments they don't get, it's no skin off your _ _ _....

You're going to see a LOT fewer Chevrolet dealerships by this time next year. "The Letter" telling them which ones should close out their inventory by next October have gone out. Sure hope your dealer wasn't one of 'em....

GOOBERMENT motors regards,

kg

zeus3925
09-10-2009, 01:07 PM
My friends? How 'bout all the friends you have at dealerships? You know...the ones you listed on another thread about this same topic? Oh...I know...as long as YOUR paperwork went through, all is well....at least you're consistent....if they (or other dealers) go out of business because of OTHER payments they don't get, it's no skin off your _ _ _....

You're going to see a LOT fewer Chevrolet dealerships by this time next year. "The Letter" telling them which ones should close out their inventory by next October have gone out. Sure hope your dealer wasn't one of 'em....

GOOBERMENT motors regards,

kg
You must think the dealers are dolts, KG. The seller had a product that he was willing to sell at X price. We were willing to buy that product at that price. Transaction completed. We go on our merry ways. That is business the private enterprise style.

The way you are grieving, KG, maybe doing missionary work in Darfur or being a minister of the gospel would suit your sentiments more precisely. How about working as a nice warm, fuzzy social worker?

Me, I'm no Mother Theresa--life is simpler that way.

K G
09-10-2009, 02:47 PM
You must think the dealers are dolts, KG. The seller had a product that he was willing to sell at X price. We were willing to buy that product at that price. Transaction completed. We go on our merry ways. That is business the private enterprise style.

On a normal day, you are correct. BHO offering $3 BILLION of OUR money to pull forward the buying cycle by three months, not to mention not paying the MAJORITY of dealers in a timely fashion. Not thinking the long term consequences out before acting is what is going to make the AFTERMATH of CforC so devastating...but you don't care, so why do I bother to explain it....:rolleyes: Acting before thinking is going to become the hallmark of this administration....that's CHANGE we can live with, right?:confused:


The way you are grieving, KG, maybe doing missionary work in Darfur or being a minister of the gospel would suit your sentiments more precisely. How about working as a nice warm, fuzzy social worker?

Your sarcasm is exceeded only by your ignorance....but you don't care, so I won't bother to explain it....:rolleyes:


Me, I'm no Mother Theresa--life is simpler that way.

That much is abundantly clear...you are her diametric...as most of us are, frankly...but we don't BRAG about it...

kg

Latisha
09-10-2009, 02:56 PM
I don't usually wade into political discussions, but thought I would give my perspective on this one. I can't say whether or not CFC was a good idea across the board or not, but it was a huge relief to me. I cashed in a 95 Chevy Blazer for my new car. That Blazer was a true clunker, the very car this program was designed to get off the road. My new car is averaging 40 mpg, and I am loving it.

One thing that really struck me was when I was at the dealer signing papers. The finance guy made a comment that he liked the program because most of the people taking advantage of it were folks that never get anything from the government, and it was about time they got something too.

I know my old Blazer was not worth $4500. No one on earth would have given me that kind of money for it. But, thanks to CFC I was able to afford a new car when I really needed one that I would not have been able to afford otherwise. In the long run, I will save a lot of money because of it.

I know there are people that took advantage of it, but that happens with every program. Time will tell if the program was worth it overall or a big failure, but as far as I am concerned, I am very happy I was offered the opportunity.

Latisha

ducknwork
09-10-2009, 04:47 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, but most people do enjoy handouts. Who wouldn't?

The people that don't enjoy them are the ones that are paying for them without getting anything in return.

There is no such thing as a free lunch regards,
________
Medical marijuana patients (http://mmjp.org)

T. Mac
09-21-2009, 06:14 PM
An interesting follow up on this is Ford sold more F150s under the CFC program than Toyota sold Prius!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32958411/ns/business-autos/

road kill
09-21-2009, 06:42 PM
Interesting read:

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/09/19/car_showrooms_quiet_after_clunkers_clamor_ends/



Problem seems to be solved!!:D