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View Full Version : Let's start a trade war.



Bruce MacPherson
09-12-2009, 12:01 AM
Obama has slapped tariffs on all passenger and light truck tires imported from China. I can think of 4 or 5 reasons that this is a stupid idea but he needs concessions from the unions to float his health care package and keep his base pacified so there ya go, another bold leadership move.

ALPHA-OMEGA
09-12-2009, 05:21 AM
Let us list all the STUPID
Let us list all the STUPID*

Now let us weight the stupid and stupid* and pick the one that may tell us if we are being give a good, bad, or indifferent Government Revenue action and trade plan. I am pretty much starting to trust this new Administration, it seems to have so much more on the ball than the last and are about 1000% more honesty. But what would you expect from someone who appears to be Bleeding Heart Dogooder?

What we need is more info that has not been skewed by partisans on either side. I do not know about the Unions, but if true, the Management of the four Michelin, one Continental, and one Firestone Plants within 100 miles of Columbia, Must be ecstatic.

One mans Ecstasy is another mans KA KA.


SEMPER FI

YardleyLabs
09-12-2009, 05:51 AM
Obama has slapped tariffs on all passenger and light truck tires imported from China. I can think of 4 or 5 reasons that this is a stupid idea but he needs concessions from the unions to float his health care package and keep his base pacified so there ya go, another bold leadership move.
I favor free trade. However, I feel free trade has to work equally in both directions and with currencies that float freely against each other (a condition rejected by China). There is nothing wrong with establishing a short term transition period when a sudden shift in trading patterns threatens major disruption. The US negotiated the right for such short term transition provisions when China joined the WTO.

The three year declining tariff imposed by the administration was lower than the tariffs recommended by the U.S. International Trade Commission. Having now imposed the tariff, there will be a mix of negotiations with the Chinese and potential legal action through the WTO which could address alternative approaches for easing the transition for the tire industry or could address the broader issue of revaluation of Chinese currency. It's not a bad place to begin a discussion.

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2009, 07:27 AM
I am continually amazed at the beating that our auto tires take on our beat-up roadways. I'm sure that all those travelling long distances for dogs have hit their fair share of potholes on the Interstate highway system! If not, I've got a couple of Interstates I could recommend to you for testing conditions :-)

With China's poor record for quality controls in everything from children's toys to the gluten in dog foods, I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy about how well they'll do with tires.

Hopefully, companies like Michelin who purport to produce high-quality products, take quality control measures even when they produce tires in different countries. It would appear that Chinese manufacturers (whatever their product) are less conscientious of quality controls.

Hew
09-12-2009, 09:03 AM
With China's poor record for quality controls in everything from children's toys to the gluten in dog foods, I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy about how well they'll do with tires. Great point (and scary to consider, too).

Hopefully, companies like Michelin who purport to produce high-quality products, take quality control measures even when they produce tires in different countries. It would appear that Chinese manufacturers (whatever their product) are less conscientious of quality controls. My brother has worked for a couple of different Chinese companies and travels there alot. He says they've got a pretty remarkable can-do and entreupenueral (sp) spirit, but two aspects of their culture that hurts them is their pride and rigid hierarchy. As a result, if some mid-level ham and egger on the factory floor sees something messed up he won't report or fix it because it will make him or his boss look bad. Squeeky wheels get punished there.


______________________

Roger Perry
09-12-2009, 10:01 AM
Obama has slapped tariffs on all passenger and light truck tires imported from China. I can think of 4 or 5 reasons that this is a stupid idea but he needs concessions from the unions to float his health care package and keep his base pacified so there ya go, another bold leadership move.

Our unemployment is high enough the way it is. I believe Obama did the right thing by imposing a tariff on imported Chineese tires.

luvmylabs23139
09-12-2009, 12:14 PM
Our unemployment is high enough the way it is. I believe Obama did the right thing by imposing a tariff on imported Chineese tires.

It is another example of him stepping all over capitalism, BUMMA is what needs to go NOW!!!!!!!

Roger Perry
09-12-2009, 12:27 PM
It is another example of him stepping all over capitalism, BUMMA is what needs to go NOW!!!!!!!

Maybe we should outsource all of the products we produce to China so all the people in the U.S. are out of work. :rolleyes:

K G
09-12-2009, 12:29 PM
Our unemployment is high enough the way it is. I believe Obama did the right thing by imposing a tariff on imported Chineese tires.

He's using an atom bomb to kill an ant....;-)

Thanks to all of the debt he's assigned to us, our children, and our children's children, we need China to help float a deficit that is expected to reach $1.56 TRILLION this year (and that's BEFORE we get sacked with paying for "his" health care program AND his Cap and Trade initiative). BHO also needs China's vote to seek new sanctions against Iran to combat their nuclear program. Taxing Chinese tires, a miniscule overall move, is not likely to go over well.

But hey....he's not really known for thinking things out before stepping in the KA KA....:cool:

kg

ducknwork
09-12-2009, 01:54 PM
He's using an atom bomb to kill an ant....;-)

Thanks to all of the debt he's assigned to us, our children, and our children's children, we need China to help float a deficit that is expected to reach $1.56 TRILLION this year (and that's BEFORE we get sacked with paying for "his" health care program AND his Cap and Trade initiative). BHO also needs China's vote to seek new sanctions against Iran to combat their nuclear program. Taxing Chinese tires, a miniscule overall move, is not likely to go over well.

But hey....he's not really known for thinking things out before stepping in the KA KA....:cool:

kg

VERY good points KG...

Not considering those points, what makes taxing chinese tires bad? Would this not give more incentive to build tires in the US, causing US companies to hire US citizens, thereby dropping US unemployment rates and stimulating US economy? Perhaps I am confused...

Then again...if he ticks off China, they cash in their IOU's, we're broke, all govt dependent...ahhh, nevermind. I will take off the tin foil hat...
________
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K G
09-12-2009, 04:55 PM
Not considering those points, what makes taxing chinese tires bad? Would this not give more incentive to build tires in the US, causing US companies to hire US citizens, thereby dropping US unemployment rates and stimulating US economy? Perhaps I am confused...

Were there no other considerations, I'd say tax EVERYTHING we import from China the same way they plan to tax the tires. While we're at it, let's dismantle NAFTA, CAFTA, and start buying American again.

But that's just me... :D

kg

Julie R.
09-12-2009, 06:00 PM
... considering those points, what makes taxing chinese tires bad? Would this not give more incentive to build tires in the US, causing US companies to hire US citizens, thereby dropping US unemployment rates and stimulating US economy? Perhaps I am confused...

Then again...if he ticks off China, they cash in their IOU's, we're broke, all govt dependent...ahhh, nevermind. I will take off the tin foil hat...

Could be the fact that we no longer have a manufacturing class, because the unions have seen to it that all the rank and file laborers have to be paid huge union salaries complete with lavish health care plans and extravagant pensions. So labor has to be outsourced abroad or we'd be paying three times what tires cost now.

Also FYI part of the Obamacare is billions of our tax dollars used for bailing out union pensions that were mismanaged because heaven forbid a union factory worker might be in the same boat as the rest of the country when it comes time to retire or a union exec. can't draw 6 digit annual retirement cash. Obongo doesn't care if the rest of us starve and have to use witch doctors, ju ju pots and gris gris as long as his peeps are taken care of.

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2009, 06:16 PM
Hew

He says they've got a pretty remarkable can-do and entreupenueral (sp) spirit, but two aspects of their culture that hurts them is their pride and rigid hierarchy. As a result, if some mid-level ham and egger on the factory floor sees something messed up he won't report or fix it because it will make him or his boss look bad. Squeeky wheels get punished there.

I have gotten the sense that there are members here who are old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" were dirty words :-) Another culture where respect & saving face was important. The Japanese caught on quickly, though, to the fact that bad products made them all look bad. So, today we have Toyota and SONY known for their high level of quality.

Hope the Chinese catch onto that concept before any bad tires kill anybody. After all, I don't think they could have any idea what our roads are like, how fast our cars go, and how many miles we drive. Without that understanding, they would not be in a good position to know how meaningful their slip-ups would be.

If/when they extend their cultural pride to their manufacturing, they would be a force to be reckoned with in world markets. Their leaders will also have to watch their backs when the populace finds out how capitalism can change their quality of life.

Interesting thought, isn't it? Just as developed countries begin to think that socialistic trends can make their lives better, the Chinese will be finding out how much more capitalism can do for them. Maybe we should encourage more Chinese immigration, and suggest some of our legislators emigrate to China? Might be some interesting results!

ducknwork
09-12-2009, 08:31 PM
Were there no other considerations, I'd say tax EVERYTHING we import from China the same way they plan to tax the tires. While we're at it, let's dismantle NAFTA, CAFTA, and start buying American again.

But that's just me... :D

kg

Kinda what I was getting at. Remember when WalMart's slogan was "We buy American so you can too"?
________
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Hew
09-12-2009, 08:39 PM
Hope the Chinese catch onto that concept before any bad tires kill anybody. After all, I don't think they could have any idea what our roads are like, how fast our cars go, and how many miles we drive. Without that understanding, they would not be in a good position to know how meaningful their slip-ups would be.
I don't think they'd care much beyond how it would affect their bottom line. Life's pretty cheap over there. :(

K G
09-12-2009, 09:15 PM
I don't think they'd care much beyond how it would affect their bottom line. Life's pretty cheap over there. :(

In every way possible....literally...:-x

kg

Bruce MacPherson
09-13-2009, 12:37 AM
See the forest for the trees here guys. First these are low cost tires which frankly American corporation don't make, the premium tire market is more profitable, they have already ceded the low cost market to China. You have now moved prices up roughly 20.00 per tire on the low end side, dosen't sound like a lot unless you happen to be one of those lower income consumers who can barley afford to put new tires on the car as it is. Secondly you have now taken those American suppliers that depend on the lower cost tires and put them in jeopardy of going out of business putting more people out of work. A study out of Rutgers University estimates at least 25,000 American jobs LOST because of the tariffs. This also is at direct odds with the Presidents assertions that we would not resort to protectionism, which this certainly is, during a time of global economic instability.
In my opinion, and outside of other factors already stated by others, when you start picking nits for the sake of political expedience, with your second biggest trading partner, you may have more to lose than they do

Roger Perry
09-13-2009, 10:16 AM
He's using an atom bomb to kill an ant....;-)

Thanks to all of the debt he's assigned to us, our children, and our children's children, we need China to help float a deficit that is expected to reach $1.56 TRILLION this year (and that's BEFORE we get sacked with paying for "his" health care program AND his Cap and Trade initiative). BHO also needs China's vote to seek new sanctions against Iran to combat their nuclear program. Taxing Chinese tires, a miniscule overall move, is not likely to go over well.

But hey....he's not really known for thinking things out before stepping in the KA KA....:cool:

kg

You mean like Bush thinking things out before starting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq even though Bush was told there were no active WMD's in Iraq before the start of the war?
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/23/60-minutes-cia-official-reveals-bush-cheney-rice-were-personally-told-iraq-had-no-wmd-in-fall-2002/


How many of Trillions of dollars have both wars cost us so far and how many more trillions of dollars will it cost us before we can get out of there, not to mention the price in human lives.

Cody Covey
09-13-2009, 10:53 AM
You mean like Bush thinking things out before starting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq even though Bush was told there were no active WMD's in Iraq before the start of the war?
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/23/60-minutes-cia-official-reveals-bush-cheney-rice-were-personally-told-iraq-had-no-wmd-in-fall-2002/


How many of Trillions of dollars have both wars cost us so far and how many more trillions of dollars will it cost us before we can get out of there, not to mention the price in human lives.

Hey Roger don't forget about Lincoln he was a dirty republican that started a war too!

K G
09-13-2009, 12:57 PM
Not ever REMOTELY close to the same thing, Roger...but making outrageous comparisons to suit your own agenda has never bothered you before.


Hey Roger don't forget about Lincoln he was a dirty republican that started a war too!


And income taxes....don't forget that....yeah, Roger....we're still paying for the Civil War today....how come you don't whine about that??????

Roger, you need to come to grips with the fact that BHO is mucking up the works. How badly he mucks it up compared to other Presidents remains to be seen, but until you take your Bush Blinders off, you'll not be able to see that....or you just don't WANT to see that, so you keep bringing up Bush 43.

Been a LONG time since I've seen such a chronic case of denial and need for diversion....

kg

Blackstone
09-13-2009, 01:16 PM
Like with most things, there has to be some middle ground between allowing cheap imports into the U.S. and protecting jobs at home. The U.S. International Trade Commission, which is an independent Federal agency, actually recommended that Obama impose duties for three years starting at 55% to counter tire imports from China, which have tripled over the last 4 years.

Contrary to what you think, U.S. tire companies do make cheap low cost tires. However, they have moved those operations to China and Mexico to take advantage of cheap wages and almost non-existent environmental regulations. The result has been that about 13 U.S. tire plants have been closed and about 15,000 U.S. workers have lost their jobs. Just last year, the Goodyear plant in Tyler, TX closed, putting 1,400 people out of work from its peak production. That plantís operations went overseas. They were the 2nd largest employer in Tyler. They Tyler, TX plant made low cost tires for the replacement market.

During his presidential campaign, Obama outlined a new, progressive trade policy that would help domestic industries seeking relief from foreign competition. It looks like he is following through on that promise. Since the election, he has also pledged to avoid protectionism to avoid exacerbating the current global recession. Itís going to be difficult walking the fine line between the two.

Buzz
09-13-2009, 02:05 PM
Could be the fact that we no longer have a manufacturing class, because the unions have seen to it that all the rank and file laborers have to be paid huge union salaries complete with lavish health care plans and extravagant pensions. So labor has to be outsourced abroad or we'd be paying three times what tires cost now.

Also FYI part of the Obamacare is billions of our tax dollars used for bailing out union pensions that were mismanaged because heaven forbid a union factory worker might be in the same boat as the rest of the country when it comes time to retire or a union exec. can't draw 6 digit annual retirement cash. Obongo doesn't care if the rest of us starve and have to use witch doctors, ju ju pots and gris gris as long as his peeps are taken care of.

You're right. I don't think American laborers should expect to make any more money than those in China. I don't think they deserve healthcare, vacation time, or weekend off for that matter either. Also, I think that the US should repeal every last environmental law, bring our environmental laws and the standard of living of American workers down to parity with the Chinese.

Bruce MacPherson
09-13-2009, 03:31 PM
Like with most things, there has to be some middle ground between allowing cheap imports into the U.S. and protecting jobs at home. The U.S. International Trade Commission, which is an independent Federal agency, actually recommended that Obama impose duties for three years starting at 55% to counter tire imports from China, which have tripled over the last 4 years.

Contrary to what you think, U.S. tire companies do make cheap low cost tires. However, they have moved those operations to China and Mexico to take advantage of cheap wages and almost non-existent environmental regulations. The result has been that about 13 U.S. tire plants have been closed and about 15,000 U.S. workers have lost their jobs. Just last year, the Goodyear plant in Tyler, TX closed, putting 1,400 people out of work from its peak production. That plantís operations went overseas. They were the 2nd largest employer in Tyler. They Tyler, TX plant made low cost tires for the replacement market.

During his presidential campaign, Obama outlined a new, progressive trade policy that would help domestic industries seeking relief from foreign competition. It looks like he is following through on that promise. Since the election, he has also pledged to avoid protectionism to avoid exacerbating the current global recession. Itís going to be difficult walking the fine line between the two.

So if the Rutgers study is correct we will only lose 25,000 more jobs probably lose a share of our export market and have the Chi coms start laying off debt causing even more instability, yipee.

Blackstone
09-13-2009, 03:41 PM
Less than 50 years ago, 1/3 of U.S. employees worked in factories, making clothing, tires, cars, furniture, etc. These were good paying jobs that helped fuel our economy. Today, a little more than 1/10 of the nation's 131 million workers are employed in manufacturing jobs. Four-fifths are in lower paying service industries.

Since 2000, more than 1.9 million manufacturing jobs have been lost, most of which have gone to Mexico and China. Thatís about 10% of the manufacturing workforce. During the same period, the number of jobs outside manufacturing have only risen about 2%.

Many of the factory jobs are being lost are in response to a sharp rise in global competition being faced by U.S. companies. Unenforced trade regulations have greatly contributed to the problem. Companies continue to look for ways to reduce costs and increase profits by moving jobs abroad to take advantage of lower labor costs, low or non-existent environmental regulations. They are also trying to position themselves to sell products to growing markets abroad, like India and China.

Meanwhile, the loss of good paying jobs continues to erode the standard of living in the U.S. for the average working American.

subroc
09-13-2009, 04:57 PM
sounds good. If it is a trade war started by a democrat, it must be good for the nation.

democrats care about the little guy.

democrats are smart.

zeus3925
09-13-2009, 07:01 PM
Obama has slapped tariffs on all passenger and light truck tires imported from China. I can think of 4 or 5 reasons that this is a stupid idea but he needs concessions from the unions to float his health care package and keep his base pacified so there ya go, another bold leadership move.


What concessions might that be?

Mike W.
09-13-2009, 08:36 PM
Sept. 14 (Bloomberg) -- China announced a probe into the alleged dumping of American auto and chicken products, two days after U.S. President Barack Obama imposed tariffs on imports of tires from the Asian nation.

Way to go O'Dumbass.

Bruce MacPherson
09-13-2009, 08:54 PM
What concessions might that be?

The AFL-CIO say they are non negotiable on three parts of the proposed health care legislation.

Employer mandates
No tax on health benefits
Public Option.

Of the three the public option seems to be the biggest problem for them although they would be pretty adamant about the tax on so called Cadillac health plans because so many union workers have them.
It would appear that the public option is probably not going to fly and at this point the President is likely to take what he can get. What does the President have to do to persuade the unions to stay on board?

Blackstone
09-13-2009, 09:08 PM
So if the Rutgers study is correct we will only lose 25,000 more jobs probably lose a share of our export market and have the Chi coms start laying off debt causing even more instability, yipee.

That is "IF" the economist from Rugters is correct. Of course, we know economists are alway correct. Only time will tell.

Blackstone
09-13-2009, 09:19 PM
sounds good. If it is a trade war started by a democrat, it must be good for the nation.

democrats care about the little guy.

democrats are smart.

It really doesn't matter to me which party tries to correct the trade imbalance that is negatively impacting the average American worker. I don't care who fixes it. I just want to see it fixed.

Roger Perry
09-14-2009, 11:38 AM
Not ever REMOTELY close to the same thing, Roger...but making outrageous comparisons to suit your own agenda has never bothered you before.




And income taxes....don't forget that....yeah, Roger....we're still paying for the Civil War today....how come you don't whine about that??????

Roger, you need to come to grips with the fact that BHO is mucking up the works. How badly he mucks it up compared to other Presidents remains to be seen, but until you take your Bush Blinders off, you'll not be able to see that....or you just don't WANT to see that, so you keep bringing up Bush 43.

Been a LONG time since I've seen such a chronic case of denial and need for diversion....

kg

I prefer to give Obama the benefit of the doubt before commenting on his presidency right or wrongs until he has a year or two under his belt. I did not comment on Bush 43 until his second term.

K G
09-14-2009, 03:04 PM
I prefer to give Obama the benefit of the doubt before commenting on his presidency right or wrongs until he has a year or two under his belt. I did not comment on Bush 43 until his second term.

If he doesn't pass health care reform and the cap and trade bill, the end of his presidency will be a foregone conclusion. The DNC will fall all over itself looking for someone to replace him in 2012.

kg

Roger Perry
09-14-2009, 03:20 PM
If he doesn't pass health care reform and the cap and trade bill, the end of his presidency will be a foregone conclusion. The DNC will fall all over itself looking for someone to replace him in 2012.

kg

Maybe so. But to comment on something that has not happened yet or has not been put into law by Congress is just speculation.

The things I have seen as a positive, are the stock market going up slowly, and GM hiring back some employees, and Ford making a profit (abet a small one). I look for the economy to grow and if it does not I will have voice my opinions on that. I am not out there yelling whoopee and yahoo because I feel Obama still has a long way to go to prove himself to the American people that his economic plan will work. If it doesn't, I will be the first to cuss him up one side and down the other.


Something needs to be done about health care and that is a fact both Democrats and Republicans agree on. I do not think the Republicans want a health care bill passed with the Democrats in controll of Congress because it will not look good for them in the next election. The Republicans had a chance to put through a health care plan when Bush was in office and they had a majority in Congress for 6 years but they failed to do so. They did not even come up with a plan for the Democrats to pick apart.