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Gerry Clinchy
09-18-2009, 02:22 PM
NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/business/17soda.html?th&emc=th

What a tangled web this all becomes! We started with tobacco and alcohol, now the next step.

Let's tax soda because it's an influential cause of obesity, due to the sugar content. This would include the iced teas, etc. But the "diet" versions would be exempt.

Well, gee, why not also tax everything else that has sugar above "X"%? How about sugar itself?

Then we take that money & use it to pay part of the bill for expanding health care coverage.

While we're at it why not take a closer look at bacon, scrapple, high-fat beef cuts? Anybody interested in buying chicken futures?

The article would have us believe that the cigarette taxes are because our government cares about our health. I'd reserve judgment on that until I get an accounting of how our states spent those big bucks from the tobacco settlement cases. How much of the $ went into implementing stop smoking measures? Caring for those already diseased?

The extrapolations of this become very intriguing. That health care stuff ... if you're too overweight, smoke, or do other unhealthy things (let's not forget unprotected sex or sharing needles for illicit drugs) ... do you automatically get "taxed" in some way, like having some limitations put on the health care treatments? Extra income tax if you are overweight? (Japan fines people for waistline size!)

If they want to tax groceries, just do it awready, but don't try to tell me it's because they "care" about the constituencies. There is too much evidence that they really don't give a d%#$ about what their constiuencies think except when it comes to campaign sweet-talk.

WRL
09-18-2009, 03:08 PM
I am all for it.

Lets start by making illegal drugs legal.

It would reduce the crime rate (if you can buy it, less people will steal or kill for it). Then tax the crap out of it.

That way the people who want to use it (and are doing so already) can pay for their health issues down the road.

Make it all legal.......that's how Obama could fund his health care plan!! ;)

WRL

WRL
09-18-2009, 03:08 PM
PS.....I think "cupcake tax" has a nice ring to it!

WRL

lizard55033
09-18-2009, 03:10 PM
well with more and more states, counties, cities, and establishment going smoke free... The gov't is lossing so much monies they have to start taxing everything else to make up for the loss.

Bruce MacPherson
09-18-2009, 03:42 PM
well with more and more states, counties, cities, and establishment going smoke free... The gov't is lossing so much monies they have to start taxing everything else to make up for the loss.

It's called the law of unintended consequences. When you tax a product to what people think is a confiscatory level they will A, quit buying the product or B, figure out a way to get it cheaper. In the case of tobacco, the states with high cigarette tax rates used the logic that it was going to provide more revenue to treat those with related conditions and would eventually work as a deterrent to the behavior. I suppose it did because, in my state at least, lawmakers are complaining that the revenue has dropped considerably. Since these same lawmakers of course didn't really earmark this money for it's intended purpose and most was rolled into the general fund they have created a drop in revenue without any real cost savings in the area they intended it for.
There is a reason that you will not find many outstanding businessmen or women in politics. They wouldn't take the cut in pay to listen to a bunch of idiots who apparently had problems with Econ 101.

Gerry Clinchy
09-18-2009, 04:21 PM
The "cupcake tax" ... yup, does have a ring to it!


I suppose it did because, in my state at least, lawmakers are complaining that the revenue has dropped considerably. Since these same lawmakers of course didn't really earmark this money for it's intended purpose and most was rolled into the general fund they have created a drop in revenue without any real cost savings in the area they intended it for.


Exactly! Maybe the high cigarette tax and the smoking prohibitions actually did what they were supposed to do? Imagine that. If you tax something too much people stop buying it; or a black market it created where the tax is evaded. So, what do you think they do? Here in PA they keep raising the tax & say that the increase will create $X in additional revenue. They've been doing that almost every year, but never explain whether the revenues are increasing or not when they raise it again the following year.

In the case of taxing recreational drugs, if they "tax the heck out of it", it will just create a black market for the product & might not solve the crime problem.

But if you're going to legalize some drugs, I'd prefer it be something we can manufacture in the U.S. so that the money isn't going to Mexico or Columbia ... how about it? Tax drugs and create jobs at the same time! And it's probably a "green" industry, too. Al Gore would be so proud!

dnf777
09-18-2009, 04:31 PM
Its not sugar. That only comes in high-end botique sodas at the end of the aisle that cost $5/six-pak. Most softdrinks have high-fructose corn syrup, which until the soda companies lobbied with millions, was considered an "artificial sweetner". Currently, Coca-Cola is attempting to get itself labeled as having "anti-oxidants" and being a healthy drink!

We would do well as a society to get that poisonous $#it out of schools and daycare. It makes kids fat.

ducknwork
09-18-2009, 04:36 PM
We would do well as a society to get that poisonous $#it out of schools and daycare. It makes kids fat.

It is not society's job to regulate what children eat and drink. We need more parents that are worth a crap.
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kjrice
09-18-2009, 05:36 PM
PS.....I think "cupcake tax" has a nice ring to it!

WRL
Pop Rocks tax.

dnf777
09-18-2009, 06:16 PM
It is not society's job to regulate what children eat and drink. We need more parents that are worth a crap.

By that logic, it's not societie's job to ban what people smoke and snort and inject, right? So you're for legalizing drugs I presume?

I see parents buying their kids breakfast at our convenience store each morning.....twinkies and pop!

Bruce MacPherson
09-18-2009, 08:44 PM
I see parents buying their kids breakfast at our convenience store each morning.....twinkies and pop!

Hard to legislate stupid.

subroc
09-18-2009, 08:56 PM
...We would do well as a society to get that poisonous $#it out of schools and daycare. It makes kids fat.

Could you provide a list of all products that would be allowed in your society?

YardleyLabs
09-18-2009, 09:07 PM
I've never been a fan of sin taxes, be they on liquor, cigarettes, drugs that are currently illegal, or cola. Personally, the only one that affects me are liquor taxes -- I drink absolutely no sweetened beverages. If I were going to identify a tax worth considering from a nutritional perspective, it would be an excise tax on all advertising for processed foods. Sugar is just one of the problems, and it may not be the worst.

Gerry Clinchy
09-18-2009, 09:46 PM
Many schools have already taken vending machines out of schools. Sort of silly to take the machines out instead of just putting better things in the machines.

The whole point of taxing the sweetened beverages is that they are not really taxing the product, but rather the behavior they want to discourage. Yes, that would go for smoking, drugs, etc.

I can see restricting smoking in public places, as they have done in most places in PA. Except, that is, that casinos are given smoking areas :-) The state gets 50% of the gaming revenues (as a tax), so am guessing that the casino people said lots of people smoke when they gamble, so they "need" smoking areas in the casinos. PA's law does specifically allow you to smoke in your own home. Wasn't that nice of them to add that? If a personal behavior infringes on someone else's rights, or endangers someone else, then I can see need for a law that protects another individual's safety or infringes on someone else's rights.

One could say that a drug user hurts nobody but himself. I think the problem with drugs like heroin, meth, coke is that eventually the addict simply can no longer function and can, indeed, become a danger to other people. Of course, it might be helpful for the health care issue since their lives would probably be shorter if free rein was given to their addiction.

How could we have missed it? The perfect name ... the "Twinkie Tax" :-)

WRL
09-18-2009, 10:07 PM
It is not society's job to regulate what children eat and drink. We need more parents that are worth a crap.

True.

WRL

WRL
09-18-2009, 10:08 PM
By that logic, it's not societie's job to ban what people smoke and snort and inject, right? So you're for legalizing drugs I presume?

I see parents buying their kids breakfast at our convenience store each morning.....twinkies and pop!

Yes I am.


WRL

WRL
09-18-2009, 10:12 PM
I've never been a fan of sin taxes, be they on liquor, cigarettes, drugs that are currently illegal, or cola. Personally, the only one that affects me are liquor taxes -- I drink absolutely no sweetened beverages. If I were going to identify a tax worth considering from a nutritional perspective, it would be an excise tax on all advertising for processed foods. Sugar is just one of the problems, and it may not be the worst.


I am. If you are a 50 year smoker and you get lung cancer, why should I have to help pay for your care?

They could put the "sin taxes" in a fund for health care. They could pay for it without raising taxes or going into debt. Hurry, someone needs to suggest it to Obama.

I'm also for people having to leave a deposit with the Nat'l Guard for a rescue mission too if they have to have their body recovered because they had the bright idea to climb Mt Hood in the winter.

Let people take MONETARY responsibility for their actions.

WRL

ducknwork
09-19-2009, 07:07 AM
They could put the "sin taxes" in a fund for health care. They could pay for it without raising taxes or going into debt. Hurry, someone needs to suggest it to Obama.


A tax is a tax. A sin tax IS raising taxes...
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ducknwork
09-19-2009, 07:10 AM
By that logic, it's not societie's job to ban what people smoke and snort and inject, right? So you're for legalizing drugs I presume?



No, I am not. Illegal drugs are a danger to other people. Totally different situation. Some 8 year old kid that weighs 200 lbs because his mama doesn't no how to parent is no danger to anyone but himself...



...and my paycheck when Messiahcare gets passed.
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dnf777
09-19-2009, 07:15 AM
Could you provide a list of all products that would be allowed in your society?

When I say "as a society" I was not referring to governmental regualtion. How about parents getting together and petitioning schools to rid themselves of coke and vending machines? And I don't mean rallies with AR-15s.

I try not to eat anything that comes in bags, boxes or wrappers, and NEVER soda. Knowing human frailty, that means not bringing it home, b/c if a Dr. Pepper is staring at me everytime I open the fridge, I know what will happen.

The food industry has employed behavioral psychologists to help market and sell their products. Salt and sugar cravings are unavoidable human desires. In nature, they help us survive when salts and calories may be far and few between. When they're put in fancy, colorful boxes and stacked on shelves, and require only to unwrap or zap for 30 seconds, we typically can't resist.

Next time you're in WalMart, conduct this simple observation. Stand at the end of the vegetable area and notice the body habitus of people buying fresh fruits and vegetables. Then stand at the end of the potatochip/twinkie aisle and observe. Or the soda aisle. Hell, just notice the floor space dedicated to fresh produce versus potatochips and coke. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why our life expectancies are falling behind other countries.

to answer your question, adults should be able to stuff anything in their gullet or lungs that they want to. I do appreciate not having smoke blown in my face if I'm trying to enjoy a good meal, so I do agree with Pa's indoor smoking ban and public places.

bon apetite regards,
Dave

ducknwork
09-19-2009, 07:20 AM
Next time you're in WalMart, conduct this simple observation. Stand at the end of the vegetable area and notice the body habitus of people buying fresh fruits and vegetables. Then stand at the end of the potatochip/twinkie aisle and observe. Or the soda aisle.

This made me laugh out loud. I don't need to actually go look. I know it's true...:-P
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Gerry Clinchy
09-19-2009, 08:20 AM
bags, boxes or wrappers, and NEVER soda.

plain rice (bags & boxes); flour (bleached or unbleached), bags; oatmeal (round box); nutritious breakfast cereals, boxes; fresh vegetables, often in plastic wrappers; all fresh meat is in plastic wrapper; cheese, plastic wrappers; orange juice, boxes.

Better idea to classify the item than it's container.

It is a known fact that soda products are a high-profit item for grocery stores, allowing them to sell other items at lower prices. So, if you feel strongly about not ingesting soda, keep in mind that if it wasn't there some basic "staples" would cost you more.

While there is no substitute for fresh produce when it comes to salads, frozen produce and even canned vegetables can sometimes have the same, or more, nutrient value as fresh produce that has lost some of its nutrient value the longer due to shelf time. So, we should add to fresh produce space the space devoted to "plain" frozen & canned vegetables and fruits.


The food industry has employed behavioral psychologists to help market and sell their products.

So it takes education and parenting to offset this.

dnf777
09-19-2009, 08:41 AM
...and my paycheck when Messiahcare gets passed.

You're already paying for him. Anyone who doesn't contribute, is leaching.

Whoa, you guys are gonna start thinking I'm a republican if I keep talking like that! :-P

dnf777
09-19-2009, 08:48 AM
plain rice (bags & boxes); flour (bleached or unbleached), bags; oatmeal (round box); nutritious breakfast cereals, boxes; fresh vegetables, often in plastic wrappers; all fresh meat is in plastic wrapper; cheese, plastic wrappers; orange juice, boxes.

Better idea to classify the item than it's container.

It is a known fact that soda products are a high-profit item for grocery stores, allowing them to sell other items at lower prices. So, if you feel strongly about not ingesting soda, keep in mind that if it wasn't there some basic "staples" would cost you more.

While there is no substitute for fresh produce when it comes to salads, frozen produce and even canned vegetables can sometimes have the same, or more, nutrient value as fresh produce that has lost some of its nutrient value the longer due to shelf time. So, we should add to fresh produce space the space devoted to "plain" frozen & canned vegetables and fruits.



So it takes education and parenting to offset this.

I would add that plain rice is often devoid of its nutrition once it is polished. Just like refined sugars and grains as opposed to whole grain. We remove all the nutrition because that's what bacteria like (ie shorter shelf life and increased shipping/distribution costs to the food industry) Its best for them to produce high calorie, low nutrition food base, then add sugar (HFCS), fat, and salt to appeal to our hypothalamus satiety centers! To have whole grain wheat products, some on this list may remember when each town or region had its own mill. The omega3s and other nutrients in the wheat germ hasten spoilage, therefore they had to be milled locally and sold quickly. It wouldn't sit on shipping palettes in back of WalMart trucks very well!

We are the most OVERFED, UNDERNOURISHED society on the planet. One study showed that kids recieved 80% of their entire daily fluid intake, and 40% of their daily calorie intake from soda pop alone!

ducknwork
09-19-2009, 09:09 AM
You're already paying for him. Anyone who doesn't contribute, is leaching.

Whoa, you guys are gonna start thinking I'm a republican if I keep talking like that! :-P

Horrors! Be careful, man!
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ducknwork
09-19-2009, 09:10 AM
We are the most OVERFED, UNDERNOURISHED society on the planet. One study showed that kids recieved 80% of their entire daily fluid intake, and 40% of their daily calorie intake from soda pop alone!

And most of their exercise is only with their thumbs.
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Rosemary Westling
09-19-2009, 09:26 AM
Faublous idea! The more sugar the more tax! The more saturated fat and trans fat the more tax! I just love this.

Brilliant.

How about if a person stays with in their ideal body weight they get a tax credit?

Pete
09-19-2009, 09:54 AM
There is alot more dangerous stuff out there than pop,candy,and processed foods and cigeretts.

Guns,cars,shopping carts,mountain climbing ,sky diving and bungy jumping, the air we breath and the water we drink,,You name it ,,its all vulgar.

Why dont we just garnish everyones wages and just allow them enough money to pay their bills. Then we will have enough money for health care,and I can eat my twinkies in peace without all this guilt.

Yu know ,one can justify that everytime I eat a pizza or a wendy burger I am actually stealing from society,,maby these actions should be criminalized.

A little alcohol is good for you by the way. We should be giving tax credits for that.

Pete

Gerry Clinchy
09-19-2009, 10:00 AM
mountain climbing ,sky diving and bungy jumping

LOL! How will the proposed health care legislation treat these self-created high risks? Try seeing what you would pay for life insurance if you tell them you have one of these hobbies.

Roger Perry
09-19-2009, 10:13 AM
Any chance they can increase the tax on fruit cakes by 10 times so I will never receive another one for Christmas?

dnf777
09-19-2009, 10:42 AM
There is alot more dangerous stuff out there than pop,candy,and processed foods and cigeretts.

Guns,cars,shopping carts,mountain climbing ,sky diving and bungy jumping, the air we breath and the water we drink,,You name it ,,its all vulgar.

Why dont we just garnish everyones wages and just allow them enough money to pay their bills. Then we will have enough money for health care,and I can eat my twinkies in peace without all this guilt.

Yu know ,one can justify that everytime I eat a pizza or a wendy burger I am actually stealing from society,,maby these actions should be criminalized.

A little alcohol is good for you by the way. We should be giving tax credits for that.

Pete

I would argue that the western diet does more to lower the overall life expectancy than anything other than infant mortality, and possibly cars.

If you want to look at non-trauma causes of preventable death, diet would be #1 I bet. And diabetes is a HUGELY expensive, chronic condition to treat.

I don't want to tax this stuff, just wish people would use more sense, but I know....wish in one hand and $#it in the other, and see which one fills up faster. (never tried that personally, but I bet I know the answer!)

This boy is heading outside. Crisp, clear morning, at about 45 degrees, heading up to 70 here today. My dog is telling me to shut this thing off and run some marks!

ducknwork
09-19-2009, 11:31 AM
Any chance they can increase the tax on fruit cakes by 10 times ?

Are you actually volunteering to pay higher taxes? How kind of you...:-P
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Roger Perry
09-19-2009, 11:55 AM
Are you actually volunteering to pay higher taxes? How kind of you...:-P

I do not buy fruit cakes. I just want the people that do send them at christmas time to pay taxes ten fold on them so I will never get another one in the mail.

ducknwork
09-19-2009, 12:22 PM
I think you missed the humor in my statement...;-)


Fruitcake.
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dnf777
09-19-2009, 01:50 PM
My Scottish grandfather had the best fruitcake recipe. It went something like gather the candied fruit, flour, yeast, and a bottle of good, aged scotch. Mix all the ingredients except the scotch, and throw them away. Enjoy what's left.