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ducknwork
09-28-2009, 12:07 PM
I am not really sure how I feel about this...although I am leaning more towards thinking it is not a good idea. Can't kids just be kids? Also, if kids go to school longer and more days, does that mean that teachers will get paid more? If so, where will that money come from? Many states are struggling to pay them as it is. If not, why would anyone teach so much more for no more money?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school
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Goose
09-28-2009, 12:23 PM
Maybe we should just give up ownership of our children to the schools during the school year. Little dorm rooms attached to the school where they could sleep and watch re-runs of Dear Leader's propaganda speeches about healthcare, cap and trade and global warming.

Teach the little ones to be good soldiers for Obama and to sing songs praising him. Who needs parents when we have our Dear Leader and educators at public schools! They know best.

We live in Cuba now.

YardleyLabs
09-28-2009, 12:38 PM
I don't know what the patterns are around the world. In Europe and the more advanced countries of Asia, typical school days last about eight hours with a lunch period but little or no free periods during the day. While my academic program in high school was fairly typical, I graduated from high school at the end of 12th grade with 32 credits, including 16 credits for lab sciences, or almost twice the number required in most US schools. America balances that some by having college last four years for a Bachelor's Degree vs. three in other countries. However, it is hard for the US to compete academically when its schools offer significantly less time for content at the secondary levels. As a parent, I felt that having summers "off" was good as long as my kids were engaged in structured activities such as jobs, camps, or summer schools. However, I was never prepared to simply allow my kids to have a two month vacation. From the age of 14 on, I insisted that they have jobs.

mjiorle
09-28-2009, 12:57 PM
Jeff, The statistics of other countries being academically superior to the US can be very misleading. Consider that those countries mostly apply a system of tracting (sp?). where only the academically gifted kids attend academic schools, and the other students are enrolled in vocational/trade schools. I imagine if we only tested the best and brightest we have, we would look pretty good too.
Mike

Bob Gutermuth
09-28-2009, 01:09 PM
It is another way to recruit and propagandise our kids into the Osama Youth and brainwash them to vote dem.

dnf777
09-28-2009, 01:14 PM
It is another way to recruit and propagandise our kids into the Osama Youth and brainwash them to vote dem.

Nah, they just put special chemicals in the water and drop them from airplanes. Haven't you noticed the increase in contrails since Obama was sworn in?

I'd like to see more quality school time spent on science and math, and also, more PE activities. We're turning out fat, stupid kids as it is. Not all the schools' fault though, many parents can't help their kids with 3rd grade math, even if they cared to. And when there's school boards that want to teach the earth is 6000 years old in science class......God help us! (pun intended)

dnf777
09-28-2009, 01:42 PM
I don't know what the patterns are around the world. In Europe and the more advanced countries of Asia, typical school days last about eight hours with a lunch period but little or no free periods during the day. While my academic program in high school was fairly typical, I graduated from high school at the end of 12th grade with 32 credits, including 16 credits for lab sciences, or almost twice the number required in most US schools. America balances that some by having college last four years for a Bachelor's Degree vs. three in other countries. However, it is hard for the US to compete academically when its schools offer significantly less time for content at the secondary levels. As a parent, I felt that having summers "off" was good as long as my kids were engaged in structured activities such as jobs, camps, or summer schools. However, I was never prepared to simply allow my kids to have a two month vacation. From the age of 14 on, I insisted that they have jobs.

First off, we should have YOU teach photography classes! I just looked at your Bucks Co. shots and they are fantastic. You certainly have an artistic eye, at least through the shutter. One aspect of some photography that amazes me is when someone can take the mundane, as you put it, and capture the beauty that is often hidden right before our eyes. I would have driven past those barns and never seen those shots you obviously did. I'm thankful for digital cameras....they allow me to shoot the requisite 1 million shots needed to get ONE that is half as good as any of yours!:)

twall
09-28-2009, 01:56 PM
Public schools have become an indoctrination system. Parents have abdicated the education of their children to the government. If parents are serious about the education of their children they should home school. Who knows their children better than their parents. Who cares about their children more than their parents?

Tom

Buzz
09-28-2009, 02:47 PM
From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.

mjiorle
09-28-2009, 03:49 PM
Maybe we should let educators handle the business of education. There's already too much influence from outside sources. Politicians (Bush "No Child Left Behind") Now another plan? Community, and parents can sometimes have too much influence in educational decisions. Speaking as a teacher(please don't bash us), our hands are tied because of someone outside of education having a great "plan" or way that we should do things. As far as home schooling goes, the children who do well with it would also do well in school, because they have parents who care. I've seen the good and bad of home school. Any way you look at it, we have a flawed system in this country. I am a teacher, and a taxpayer. I also look at my grandparents(in NJ); getting killed on their taxes. I don't have the answer, and I don't know if there is one.
Mike

Raymond Little
09-28-2009, 04:17 PM
From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.

Call a spade a spade Buzz, the teachers unions have ruined the public school system in America. We do not have a funding problem, we have
a results problem in this country. America spends more per child than any
industrialized country in the world with pizz poor results. The lefts answer to everything has and will always be to throw more money at it to be skimmed off by the teachers unions and politicians. We will never have an outstanding education system until the NEA is kicked out of the school house. It would not hurt if all da baby momma and babby daddy would raise thier own chilren and be responsible parrents but I never see that happening.

Reallist Regards;)

YardleyLabs
09-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Jeff, The statistics of other countries being academically superior to the US can be very misleading. Consider that those countries mostly apply a system of tracting (sp?). where only the academically gifted kids attend academic schools, and the other students are enrolled in vocational/trade schools. I imagine if we only tested the best and brightest we have, we would look pretty good too.
Mike
I didn't quote educational rankings. However, the ones traditionally used track 15 year olds, which predates the age at which kids are generally permitted to leave school in most countries and would be unaffected by separation of students into academic and vocational tracks (they are all tested). By other measures, including the percentage of students graduating from high school and the percentage graduating from collage, the US is also falling behind even though secondary schools in other countries typically go one year longer than those in the US.

Obviously cost is a factor in deciding what weight is given to education as you note in your subsequent post. However, I would argue that one can provide a stronger education without incurring the costs that are found in NJ (the highest cost/student in the country) by shifting resources from administrative functions to pedagogical ones. NJ has a ridiculously expensive system in terms of admin costs, spending almost twice as much as my school district, located just across the border, which has an academic record better than most NJ schools.

dnf777
09-28-2009, 05:49 PM
Call a spade a spade Buzz, the teachers unions have ruined the public school system in America. We do not have a funding problem, we have
a results problem in this country. America spends more per child than any
industrialized country in the world with pizz poor results. The lefts answer to everything has and will always be to throw more money at it to be skimmed off by the teachers unions and politicians. We will never have an outstanding education system until the NEA is kicked out of the school house. It would not hurt if all da baby momma and babby daddy would raise thier own chilren and be responsible parrents but I never see that happening.

Reallist Regards;)

I attended public school all my life. When young, I attended union-shop schools until 2nd grade. When we moved to Alabama, I tested at a 6th grade level, but they were only willing to place me in the 5th grade, instead of third. I was bored out of my mind, and got into lots of trouble for explaining the lessons to the teacher much of the time.

Quality of education is a function of dedicated, educated teachers, whether they are union or not. I have paid just as high school taxes in non-union districts in the south as I have union districts in the north. Poor leadership and corrupt administrators are likely more to blame that teachers trying to earn living wages.

Marvin S
09-28-2009, 07:17 PM
I attended public school all my life. When young, I attended union-shop schools until 2nd grade. When we moved to Alabama, I tested at a 6th grade level, but they were only willing to place me in the 5th grade, instead of third. I was bored out of my mind, and got into lots of trouble for explaining the lessons to the teacher much of the time.

Quality of education is a function of dedicated, educated teachers, whether they are union or not. I have paid just as high school taxes in non-union districts in the south as I have union districts in the north. Poor leadership and corrupt administrators are likely more to blame that teachers trying to earn living wages.

Part Time employment, generally staffed by the lower echelon of those who partake of higher education - I would say the pay is more than adequate for the product.


I'd like to see more quality school time spent on science and math, and also, more PE activities. We're turning out fat, stupid kids as it is. Not all the schools' fault though, many parents can't help their kids with 3rd grade math, even if they cared to. And when there's school boards that want to teach the earth is 6000 years old in science class......God help us! (pun intended)

In my day the educators ran the schools with full support of the community. That day "No Longer Exists" courtesy of some really bad decisions.


I don't know what the patterns are around the world. In Europe and the more advanced countries of Asia, typical school days last about eight hours with a lunch period but little or no free periods during the day. While my academic program in high school was fairly typical, I graduated from high school at the end of 12th grade with 32 credits, including 16 credits for lab sciences, or almost twice the number required in most US schools. America balances that some by having college last four years for a Bachelor's Degree vs. three in other countries. However, it is hard for the US to compete academically when its schools offer significantly less time for content at the secondary levels. As a parent, I felt that having summers "off" was good as long as my kids were engaged in structured activities such as jobs, camps, or summer schools. However, I was never prepared to simply allow my kids to have a two month vacation. From the age of 14 on, I insisted that they have jobs.

We will not get there with longer days taught by ill qualified pedagogues. As I was, our children were & our grandchildren are - there is some leisure time in the summer but there are also chores & activities to round the children's education.

I do not believe it bad to allow children enough time to be bored, it's tells you something about them with their use of that time.


Jeff, The statistics of other countries being academically superior to the US can be very misleading. Consider that those countries mostly apply a system of tracting (sp?). where only the academically gifted kids attend academic schools, and the other students are enrolled in vocational/trade schools. I imagine if we only tested the best and brightest we have, we would look pretty good too.
Mike

I worked with engineers from around the world at TBC. I did not see any ethnicity rise above the rest, though I could name some countries where their background set them back considerably. The desire to have a statistically driven analysis of a student's capability is, anyway to me, somewhat EWO driven.

I have talked to a couple of schools about sponsoring scholarships to encourage those students, like myself, who were not able to be plugged into their round or square hole. Their answer, grades in HS are a good indicator of how well a student will do. The conversation has ended there. I am a big believer in testing, there used to be s system of tests that came out of Iowa that were quite good at showing what a student had learned. Apparently, they are no longer in vogue. What is in vogue is sucking up to the teacher to be well thought of. One observation I will make "If the educators anoint someone as a can't miss success", they will more than likely never get above the middle of the pack.


Maybe we should let educators handle the business of education. There's already too much influence from outside sources. Politicians (Bush "No Child Left Behind") Now another plan? Community, and parents can sometimes have too much influence in educational decisions. Speaking as a teacher(please don't bash us), our hands are tied because of someone outside of education having a great "plan" or way that we should do things. As far as home schooling goes, the children who do well with it would also do well in school, because they have parents who care. I've seen the good and bad of home school. Any way you look at it, we have a flawed system in this country. I am a teacher, and a taxpayer. I also look at my grandparents(in NJ); getting killed on their taxes. I don't have the answer, and I don't know if there is one.
Mike

I won't disagree with your too much outside influence. But, the education system screwed it up & now everyone has a solution they hope will stick, but is generally the same tired stuff.


From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.

Where you live spends very little per pupil yet along with several other of these low spending states seems to finish with some fairly bright children. What causes that?


I didn't quote educational rankings. However, the ones traditionally used track 15 year olds, which predates the age at which kids are generally permitted to leave school in most countries and would be unaffected by separation of students into academic and vocational tracks (they are all tested). By other measures, including the percentage of students graduating from high school and the percentage graduating from collage, the US is also falling behind even though secondary schools in other countries typically go one year longer than those in the US.

Obviously cost is a factor in deciding what weight is given to education as you note in your subsequent post. However, I would argue that one can provide a stronger education without incurring the costs that are found in NJ (the highest cost/student in the country) by shifting resources from administrative functions to pedagogical ones. NJ has a ridiculously expensive system in terms of admin costs, spending almost twice as much as my school district, located just across the border, which has an academic record better than most NJ schools.

Portland, OR for years had the multiple track & Benson Tech sent as many students to college as the so-called college oriented programs, so it is no longer used.

Schools should be smaller, classes should be limited to one sex, discipline should be practiced & better use should be made of those hours the students are in the school building.

There should be an allowance for those teachers who practice the more difficult disciplines & pay should be partially predicated on where that teacher falls on the intelligence scale.

WRL
09-28-2009, 07:52 PM
Marvin,

Your post has so many absurd notions, I have elected to not bother quoting and pointing them out.

More intelligence more pay? How does someone "more intelligent" become a "better teacher"? The two do NOT go hand in hand.

All one sex classes? Ridiculous.....

I was homeschooled for three years. I homeschooled my son for three years. Other than that, I was publicly schooled as was my son.

I believe a few changes would work wonders on our education program:

1) Bigger not smaller classes. I would think 45-50 kids per class.

2) Requiring every parent to spend 6 hours in class for EACH of their children (if you have 6 kids, your choice but you still have to spend 36 (6 x 6) hours per month in class). That would be one hour per class that your child has. It will do two things, help out the teacher as a teacher's aide, AND your child is less likely to be a jerk with mom or dad there so hopefully more learning would happen.

3)Year round school. Most people in the colder climates yank their kids out of school for x amount (fill in the amount) to do "family vacations" whether it is to take a day skiiing or a week to Hawaii. In the southern climates, lots of families want to head north to escape some heat for family vacations. A simple 15 week period, (12 weeks in school, 3 weeks out) with a shift (running 4 sets of offset groups of kids through each school) will allow for more kids to be taught in each school, plus the kids will learn in quarters (no more of weeks off in the middle of quarters or semesters, I had a hard time remembering my locker combination let alone what we were studying before Christmas break). Parents would learn to schedule vacations based on when THEIR kids were out of school. No reason other than illness for kids to miss more than a day here or there.

4) Teachers are compensated WELL for test results for their classes. Performance based earnings. Base salary plus bonuses for number kids passing the state learning tests or achivement tests.

Alot of people will say that daycare costs are more with year round school. That is garbage. The kids will actually spend more time in school so would reduce daycare costs. Also, people will say what about sports? What about them? If its Christmas or Thanksgiving vacation time, and thekids are not in school kids are still participating in sports. Same here. Even if you have a three week off period, if your kid is in sports or whatever it will still go on....just like little league during summer vacation.

WRL

dnf777
09-28-2009, 08:09 PM
There are communities where you could have 40-50 kids in a class. There are places where you would need riot police, not crossing guards to maintain order!

ducknwork
09-29-2009, 07:07 AM
From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.

Winner winner chicken dinner...
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Marvin S
09-29-2009, 07:31 PM
Marvin,

Your post has so many absurd notions, I have elected to not bother quoting and pointing them out.

You apparently have not been folowing what happens in the real world as I have for half a century. Those are not absurd notions as they have been tried & found to work. Just like Charter Schools & Choice but have all been trashcanned by the allies of the status quo.


More intelligence more pay? How does someone "more intelligent" become a "better teacher"? The two do NOT go hand in hand.

That's why the military academies still place a premium on intellegence. Like race horse pedigrees it's not the whole show but is a substantial part of it.


I am sure you do many LTTE's for the Op-Ed page of the Oregonian, :rolleyes: as I am sure you have sent a letter to the Evergreen Education Association saying you would like to see 60% of their members be unemployed.

Actually, some of those who send children to the government schools are hard pressed to find time in a day to do all they need to do. If the entire system started earning the money it has taken in, there would be no need for Mom &/or Dad to be in attendance. Besides, they only want you there to shill for the levy.

The schools are not doing a particularly stellar job, so you say more time in school. What will that accomp[lish?

As for performance base, that's why I say some pay based on IQ, there is no method of influencing that. You are either smart or you are not!

Your rant is quite typical of someone who is not playing with a full deck &/or a level of knowledge about the subject (You may take that statement as it fits). Government Schools have a diverse population, not all children learn at the same rate or from the same page, the schools need to be capable of dealing with that. So far they have only shown themselves partially capable.

WRL
09-29-2009, 08:31 PM
Your post is laughable.

Firstly, I KNOW you. You wouldn't have a clue who I am.

As far as who is playing with a full deck....LOL

I know I am but not so sure you are.

As far as the "half century" comment.....being 70 years old give or take doesn't make you smarter, just makes you OLDER.

The BEST teachers are not necessarily the ones with the highest IQs.....they are the ones that can communicate the best to make the material understandable.

If a parent is "hard pressed" to find time to spend with their child in school, then perhaps they shouldn't have them? or have as many of them?

I never said more time in school. The year round school amounts to pretty much the same time they spend now. Its just distributed differently.

As far as my "rant" being someone not playing with a full deck, how long has it been since YOU had a child in school? Thirty years give or take not including your grandchildren.

You are out of touch with the real world on many fronts. This is just one of them.

WRL

Marvin S
09-29-2009, 09:26 PM
Firstly, I KNOW you. You wouldn't have a clue who I am.

NO - you met me once - it ends there. But the fact that you think you are incognito says a whole lot. I also know who you are, if that makes any difference. I don't believe so.

As for your educational theories - it's all IYO. Nothing else - I would drop a few names but they would probably be too intellectual for you to even have read them.

WRL
09-29-2009, 10:07 PM
NO - you met me once - it ends there. But the fact that you think you are incognito says a whole lot. I also know who you are, if that makes any difference. I don't believe so.

As for your educational theories - it's all IYO. Nothing else - I would drop a few names but they would probably be too intellectual for you to even have read them.

Isn't it funny Marvin that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be BENEATH you?

Actually Marvin, I do know you. You see, I sit, I watch and I listen.

You do not. You have this idea (and its made abundantly clear post after post after post) that anyone who does not agree with you must be stupid.

Well unfortunately for you, that's not how the real world works.

Being 70 years old just means you are older, not smarter, or wiser nor does it give you a higher IQ.

I don't think I am incognito. I just know that you don't KNOW me. Yeah you know the name and you might even recognize the face. But you don't know what I know or who I know or what I have read.

Open-minded people progress and grow through life and over time. Close-minded people just grow older through life and over time.

WRL

Bruce MacPherson
09-30-2009, 01:13 AM
It is another way to recruit and propagandise our kids into the Osama Youth and brainwash them to vote dem.

Bob there are some on here that would have you believe your cryptic, but in my opinion much closer to the mark, opinions are just the product of a twisted radical right wing mind set. I do not happen to be one of those people. The educational system in this country has been the sole providence of the left wing for years. Get em young fill their head full of junk and create a reliable voting block down the road. In many cases the parents of these little zombies either don't know enough or care enough to understand just who is teaching what should be a generation full of potential. Unfortunately the best and brightest are not often found teaching in our public education system.

Marvin S
09-30-2009, 05:27 PM
Lee, you are beginning to sound like the person who was on my case a couple of years ago. Turns out this person is a serial EMBEZZLER, or is all the scuttle I hear not true. Anyway, whats your issue?


Actually Marvin, I do know you.WRL

I would say that if what I do is that entertaining to you, you truly need to get a life.

You might first try learning a little about the dogs you breed before you peddle the pups.


Your post has so many absurd notions, WRL

I didn't start this food fight - you did, doesn't say a whole lot for a former moderator on this forum.

While there are people in this world who I would not want to think ill of me, you are not one of those. Read my byline, I do believe that also. So waste your posts elsewhere.

I happen to believe I am well qualified to discuss the K-12 & beyond system of schools based on my life's experiences which did include serving on a school board & facing down a teacher's strike. I would note that I was elected twice by fairly substantial margins, so had I not been doing something right that wouldn't have happened. So again, your opinion would go with that 40% who chose not to vote for me.

I spent several years as negotiations chair on this board, a position I was elected to by my fellow Board members, so I must have done something right. The teachers took that out on our boys, which would be typical. Many of them have an issue with the adult world & reality.

As for what you do, I did notice the omission of the word "COMPREHEND", you might try a little of that before you get into a discussion with someone who's played the game.

WRL
09-30-2009, 05:50 PM
Lee, you are beginning to sound like the person who was on my case a couple of years ago. Turns out this person is a serial EMBEZZLER, or is all the scuttle I hear not true. Anyway, whats your issue?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can't tell you about what scuttle you might or might not have heard.

As far as knowing about the dogs I breed, pretty sure I know quite a bit about them. However, it sounds like you are unhappy with your dog. If you are, well then I guess you can take it up with the person who gave it to you. Last time I asked your son how your dog was doing, he said you weren't talking to him.

As far as worrying about whether you like me or not, gee I've never even given it a thought. Actually, I still haven't given it a thought.

If enough people challenge you on your ideas, your attitude is "take your ball and go home".

Here's a link to the SECOND TIME you "quit the board"......if I remember correctly the second time you "quit the board" it lasted a mere two days.....

http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20944

Steve
09-30-2009, 06:13 PM
From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.

That is ridiculous. The inner city schools are the best funded in the country and have nothing to show for it. The issue is discipline. There is nothing a public school can do with people who's parents are socially dysfunctional.

Public schools should be abolished. Education is way too important to be left up to the government.

Buzz
09-30-2009, 07:37 PM
That is ridiculous. The inner city schools are the best funded in the country and have nothing to show for it. The issue is discipline. There is nothing a public school can do with people who's parents are socially dysfunctional.

Public schools should be abolished. Education is way too important to be left up to the government.

Care to document that?

dnf777
09-30-2009, 08:21 PM
That is ridiculous. The inner city schools are the best funded in the country and have nothing to show for it. The issue is discipline. There is nothing a public school can do with people who's parents are socially dysfunctional.

Public schools should be abolished. Education is way too important to be left up to the government.

Who or what should it be left up to? I'm not arguing, but I'm all ears if anyone can come up with a better system, that will give ALL kids a chance to succeed and better themselves. I have NO DOUBT private schools can do a great job, but only for those who can afford them.

Vouchers are an interesting idea, but will not cover the entire cost of private schools likely, and will segregate kids into those with the means to attend private school on vouchers, and those left to the even more highly underfunded public schools.

While it certainly has its faults and inefficiencies, I would say the public school system has done a fairly decent job for us.

YardleyLabs
09-30-2009, 09:49 PM
That is ridiculous. The inner city schools are the best funded in the country and have nothing to show for it. The issue is discipline. There is nothing a public school can do with people who's parents are socially dysfunctional.

Public schools should be abolished. Education is way too important to be left up to the government.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Philadelphia schools receive one half the level of funding as schools in my area (Bucks County -- aka Big Bucks County) yet deal with students with many more problems. Abolish public schools and we will soon be able to compete with the worst of the Islamic fundamentalist countries in a rush back to the middle ages.

ducknwork
10-01-2009, 07:41 AM
While it certainly has its faults and inefficiencies, I would say the public school system has done a fairly decent job for us.

Lots of smart people have attended public schools.

Just like anything in life, you get out what you put in. Parents need to teach their children how to put in 110% at the important things in life that will make them successful. Not 30% at school and 100% chasing women or selling drugs...
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dnf777
10-01-2009, 09:22 AM
Lots of smart people have attended public schools.

Just like anything in life, you get out what you put in. Parents need to teach their children how to put in 110% at the important things in life that will make them successful. Not 30% at school and 100% chasing women or selling drugs...

Hey, chicks dig guys who can help with homework! Multitask!

ducknwork
10-01-2009, 10:03 AM
Hey, chicks dig guys who can help with homework! Multitask!

I distinctly remember being bribed to help my wife with her spanish homework...;):D
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