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TXduckdog
10-09-2009, 11:06 AM
"The Senate Finance Committee will vote on its sketchy version of ObamaCare on Tuesday. You know...the one with NO LEGISLATIVE LANGUAGE TO READ. The SFC by the way is the ONLY finance committee in Congress that routinely DOES NOT produce legislative language in their bills.

It's all part of the Reid/Pelosi/Obama plan to ram through a final healthcare bill that was written behind closed doors with little or no public debate.

But the key first step is getting ObamaCare passed through the Finance Committee on Tuesday. If Chairman Baucus fails on Tuesday, it would be a serious blow to the Democrats'
stealth plan. Here's why...

Right now, Baucus is trying to use the Congressional Budget Office report on his bill to get enough Senators on board for passage on Tuesday.

This is key because once two committees pass a bill, Harry Reid can use his procedural power to merge the bills and move his revised version (the one Obama and the Democrats really want) directly to the Senate floor.

Heritage Foundation is reporting that Reid will replace the text of an existing unrelated bill with his version of ObamaCare and force a floor vote. Since his version will be crafted behind closed doors, the public will have little or no time to review before a Senate floor vote!

Then, Nancy Pelosi would take the same bill back to the House, pass it quickly and send it to Obama. With blitzkrieg speed we will have ObamaCare passed and signed into law!

But there's one catch...

The Left must get the bill through the Finance Committee on Tuesday."


Source: Heritage Foundation

road kill
10-09-2009, 11:10 AM
May I add this:

There WILL be HEALTHCARE for ILLEGALL ALIENS!!

The SCOTUS has already ruled that social programs apply to people and I/A's can not be excluded.

"the Obama" being a Harvard Law grad and editor of the "Harvard Law Review" knows this.

Bend over and grab yer ankles folks.

TXduckdog
10-09-2009, 11:16 AM
Yeah.....I read something about that yesterday.....raised my eyebrows but it's not surprising.

What's a campaign promise worth these days?

road kill
10-09-2009, 11:20 AM
Sounds like Wilson was right!!

"YOU LIE!!"

luvmylabs23139
10-09-2009, 12:06 PM
This bill leaves 25 million uninsured yet only one third of those are illegals per the CBO.
It doesn't take a math wiz to run the numbers and figure out that even the CBO says illegals will get coverage.
25 million * .33 = 8.25 million
There are based on estimates anywhere between 20- 30 million illegals in this country.
Taking the conservative estimate 20 million-8.25 million = 11.75 millon illegals we will be forced to pay for.

YardleyLabs
10-09-2009, 12:09 PM
This bill leaves 25 million uninsured yet only one third of those are illegals per the CBO.
It doesn't take a math wiz to run the numbers and figure out that even the CBO says illegals will get coverage.
If I remember the numbers correctly, I believe about 40% of illegal immigrants are currently insured -- typically through their employer and in some cases through Medicaid. That would be consistent with the CBO's estimate of the number that would be uninsured under the new program.

ducknwork
10-09-2009, 12:12 PM
If I remember the numbers correctly, I believe about 40% of illegal immigrants are currently insured -- typically through their employer and in some cases through Medicaid. That would be consistent with the CBO's estimate of the number that would be uninsured under the new program.

If they are illegal, they shouldn't be employed. Start finding them and deporting them. That'll be another savings that we can use to pay for real HC reform.
________
MONTANA MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARY (http://montana.dispensaries.org/)

luvmylabs23139
10-09-2009, 12:14 PM
If I remember the numbers correctly, I believe about 40% of illegal immigrants are currently insured -- typically through their employer and in some cases through Medicaid. That would be consistent with the CBO's estimate of the number that would be uninsured under the new program.

If they are illegal they should not be employed and should be tossed out of this country today!!!!
Screw this hearing junk, load them on busses and send them back today!!!!
DEfend our borders in a serious manner.

road kill
10-09-2009, 12:32 PM
If I remember the numbers correctly, I believe about 40% of illegal immigrants are currently insured -- typically through their employer and in some cases through Medicaid. That would be consistent with the CBO's estimate of the number that would be uninsured under the new program.

Mr. Yardley, isn't against the law to hire "undocumented workers?"
(illegal aliens)

Is that a law you feel we need not obey because YOU don't like it?
Could you list for we the uneducated which laws we should and should not obey?

Or did you just make that statistic up as I see no link.
(you know, links you demended from me to support my comments)

just here to help.......

luvmylabs23139
10-09-2009, 12:43 PM
Let me add that they darn well should not be getting medicaid!!!! Why the heck should the gov't steal my money and give it to ILLEGALS!!!!! I would really love to hear your defense of that. THese are people who are CRIMINALS!!!

YardleyLabs
10-09-2009, 02:45 PM
Let me add that they darn well should not be getting medicaid!!!! Why the heck should the gov't steal my money and give it to ILLEGALS!!!!! I would really love to hear your defense of that. THese are people who are CRIMINALS!!!
Actually, I don't defend it. Personally, I think our immigration laws should be much looser than they are now but that whatever laws we have should be enforced. Employers employ illegal aliens for the same reason they always have -- cheap, hard working labor. As jobs dry up, illegal immigration dries up as well. There will be no end of illegal immigration as long as there is employment and the only enforcement that will ever make a difference is prosecution of employers, whether they be private individuals, farms, meat packing plants, etc.

The border patrol approach will never work any more than raids on puppy mills change the economics of the puppy trade. Even based on workplace enforcement, however, there are no easy answers. For years I owned and ran a business where a significant portion of our staff were foreign nationals. We always verified visa status, but that does not mean that we never employed illegals. The problem is that status can change and the employer has no reasonable way of knowing that. In addition, we have no way of identifying papers that might be fraudulent. We were no more able or interested in playing the job of immigration policeman than the hospital, the local police officer, the man at the newsstand, or you. And in case you don't know, it is illegal to discriminate in employment based on national origin as long as the person is legally eligible for employment in the United States.

However, as long as illegals are here, they will still need medical care. The care they are receiving now is generally only for medical emergencies. It may be for treatment of a contagious illness. It may be for treatment of a life threatening emergency. I assume you are not suggesting that hospital emergency rooms should withhold treatment until you can produce both an insurance card and a passport and visa. As of now, we are still not branded with our permanent citizenship number at birth.

Most local police departments have enough to do fighting crime in their own communities and do not become involved in investigating immigration status. Hospitals are even less interested in investigating alleged immigration violations. State Medicaid programs often provide coverage for illegals because the alternative is that the bills are unpaid. In Pennsylvania, the state provides annual payments to hospitals for the unreimbursed care they are legally required to provide. The balance gets built into provider rates paid by patients and their insurance companies.

Hew
10-09-2009, 03:26 PM
The border patrol approach will never work any more than raids on puppy mills change the economics of the puppy trade. Even based on workplace enforcement, however, there are no easy answers. For years I owned and ran a business where a significant portion of our staff were foreign nationals. We always verified visa status, but that does not mean that we never employed illegals. The problem is that status can change and the employer has no reasonable way of knowing that. In addition, we have no way of identifying papers that might be fraudulent. We were no more able or interested in playing the job of immigration policeman than the hospital, the local police officer, the man at the newsstand, or you. And in case you don't know, it is illegal to discriminate in employment based on national origin as long as the person is legally eligible for employment in the United States.
Dead solid perfect. Turning the border into a DMZ is a monument to stupidity and pisses money down a deep, dark hole. Workplace enforcement is the only sensible method to reduce illegal immigration. But before they can start cracking down on employers they need to fix the paperwork snafus and easily forged documentation first. A good start would be to require federally standardized drivers license/IDs.

TXduckdog
10-10-2009, 09:49 AM
Actually, I don't defend it. Personally, I think our immigration laws should be much looser than they are now but that whatever laws we have should be enforced. Employers employ illegal aliens for the same reason they always have -- cheap, hard working labor. As jobs dry up, illegal immigration dries up as well. There will be no end of illegal immigration as long as there is employment and the only enforcement that will ever make a difference is prosecution of employers, whether they be private individuals, farms, meat packing plants, etc.

The border patrol approach will never work any more than raids on puppy mills change the economics of the puppy trade. Even based on workplace enforcement, however, there are no easy answers. For years I owned and ran a business where a significant portion of our staff were foreign nationals. We always verified visa status, but that does not mean that we never employed illegals. The problem is that status can change and the employer has no reasonable way of knowing that. In addition, we have no way of identifying papers that might be fraudulent. We were no more able or interested in playing the job of immigration policeman than the hospital, the local police officer, the man at the newsstand, or you. And in case you don't know, it is illegal to discriminate in employment based on national origin as long as the person is legally eligible for employment in the United States.

However, as long as illegals are here, they will still need medical care. The care they are receiving now is generally only for medical emergencies. It may be for treatment of a contagious illness. It may be for treatment of a life threatening emergency. I assume you are not suggesting that hospital emergency rooms should withhold treatment until you can produce both an insurance card and a passport and visa. As of now, we are still not branded with our permanent citizenship number at birth.

Most local police departments have enough to do fighting crime in their own communities and do not become involved in investigating immigration status. Hospitals are even less interested in investigating alleged immigration violations. State Medicaid programs often provide coverage for illegals because the alternative is that the bills are unpaid. In Pennsylvania, the state provides annual payments to hospitals for the unreimbursed care they are legally required to provide. The balance gets built into provider rates paid by patients and their insurance companies.



Sadly, you are correct in this assessment. Thats why this massive financial drain needs to be reformed as well. To me this is more important than the the current HC system.

luvmylabs23139
10-10-2009, 10:59 AM
There are also quirks, or intentional loopholes, however you want to look at it, that actually make it difficult for employers to verify the status of a person.
Read an I-9 form. A HR person cannot require a person to provide a social security card as a form of proof of eligability. This has nothing to do with a fraudulent one being provided, there are options on the I-9 form that means a ss card does not need to be provided.
Payroll can however request a ss card at any time from any employee and it must be provided within a certain time frame (maybe 72 hrs) or the employee may be terminated.
That person can be hired , work that amount of time, and must be paid for that time worked.

M&K's Retrievers
10-10-2009, 11:05 PM
If I remember the numbers correctly, I believe about 40% of illegal immigrants are currently insured -- typically through their employer and in some cases through Medicaid. That would be consistent with the CBO's estimate of the number that would be uninsured under the new program.

Oh crap! That does it. Do you really think that the type of employer who hires illegals is going to provide benefiits. Give me a break! They hire them because they are inexpensive and/or willing to do some crappy job that no one else will do for the wage they are willing to pay. The benefits they get are paid for by taxpayers in the form of free medical care. Wake up.

YardleyLabs
10-11-2009, 06:56 AM
Oh crap! That does it. Do you really think that the type of employer who hires illegals is going to provide benefiits. Give me a break! They hire them because they are inexpensive and/or willing to do some crappy job that no one else will do for the wage they are willing to pay. The benefits they get are paid for by taxpayers in the form of free medical care. Wake up.
Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level. The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)

M&K's Retrievers
10-11-2009, 09:58 AM
Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level. The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)

I believe I said "illegal". My guess is that the the 56% cited are here legally and work for employers who provide group insurance benefits.

Gerry Clinchy
10-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level.The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)

I might guess that among the 79% above the poverty level might well be a fair number in the medical profession. As we all know, there are many foreign-born doctors practicing here today. That would also likely raise the median household income. Those might also account for a good share of the 56% with insurance.

OTOH, would these census figures take into account illegal aliens? How accurate would such a count of illegals be?

luvmylabs23139
10-11-2009, 12:08 PM
Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level. The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)


There is huge difference between non-citizen foreign born and being illegal!!!

YardleyLabs
10-11-2009, 12:08 PM
I might guess that among the 79% above the poverty level might well be a fair number in the medical profession. As we all know, there are many foreign-born doctors practicing here today. That would also likely raise the median household income. Those might also account for a good share of the 56% with insurance.

OTOH, would these census figures take into account illegal aliens? How accurate would such a count of illegals be?
The census figures definitely attempt to count illegals. I believe the estimate os that about 2/3 of the foreign born non-citizens are illegals (around 12-14 million). On that basis, a substantial portion are still covered by insurance.

M&K's Retrievers
10-11-2009, 12:20 PM
The census figures definitely attempt to count illegals. I believe the estimate os that about 2/3 of the foreign born non-citizens are illegals (around 12-14 million). On that basis, a substantial portion are still covered by insurance.

Even if they are, which I doubt, they eithor bought it themselves or have it provided by their employer which is fine. It wasn't given to them by thee and me as the libs would have it under new legislation.

M&K's Retrievers
10-11-2009, 10:05 PM
Wonder where Yardley is???

Gerry Clinchy
10-11-2009, 10:11 PM
Is my math fuzzy?

56% of non-citizens are insured. 67% of non-citizens are illegals. I would have to believe, then, that at least 11% of the illegals are NOT insured. I would expect that the illegals would be more highly represented among the UN-insured than legal immigrant non-citizens.

11% of 11 million is 1.2 million uninsured at minimum?

If 15% of citizens are uninsured, it seems a little off-base to think that more illegals are actually insured than citizens ... considering that the illegals would generally want to conceal their presence here, and insurance might compromise the concealment effort.

It might be reasonable to assume that some illegals who have been here a long time might be insured, but assuming that 89% of them were insured would be ignoring entirely the legal non-citizens ... and I might expect that the legal immigrants would be more likely to have medical insurance. For example, I'm sure that there are many legal non-citizens in this country as employees of large, multi-national corporations (think Toyota, Olympus, & other companies that routinely have employees being temporarily assigned here in the US; and also have Americans routinely assigned to other countries as legal non-citizens in those countries). I would fully expect that such legal non-citizens would all have medical coverage.

I don't think it would be as reasonable to assume that illegal non-citizens have a higher percent of covered individuals than legal non-citizens.

M&K's Retrievers
10-11-2009, 10:18 PM
Is my math fuzzy?

56% of non-citizens are insured. 67% of non-citizens are illegals. I would have to believe, then, that at least 11% of the illegals are NOT insured. I would expect that the illegals would be more highly represented among the UN-insured than legal immigrant non-citizens.

11% of 11 million is 1.2 million uninsured at minimum?

If 15% of citizens are uninsured, it seems a little off-base to think that more illegals are actually insured than citizens ... considering that the illegals would generally want to conceal their presence here, and insurance might compromise the concealment effort.

It might be reasonable to assume that some illegals who have been here a long time might be insured, but assuming that 89% of them were insured would be ignoring entirely the legal non-citizens ... and I might expect that the legal immigrants would be more likely to have medical insurance. For example, I'm sure that there are many legal non-citizens in this country as employees of large, multi-national corporations (think Toyota, Olympus, & other companies that routinely have employees being temporarily assigned here in the US; and also have Americans routinely assigned to other countries as legal non-citizens in those countries). I would fully expect that such legal non-citizens would all have medical coverage.

I don't think it would be as reasonable to assume that illegal non-citizens have a higher percent of covered individuals than legal non-citizens.

No, your math is not fuzzy. Someone else's is. Remember, liars figure and figures lie :rolleyes:

YardleyLabs
10-11-2009, 10:22 PM
Is my math fuzzy?

56% of non-citizens are insured. 67% of non-citizens are illegals. I would have to believe, then, that at least 11% of the illegals are NOT insured. I would expect that the illegals would be more highly represented among the UN-insured than legal immigrant non-citizens.

11% of 11 million is 1.2 million uninsured at minimum?

If 15% of citizens are uninsured, it seems a little off-base to think that more illegals are actually insured than citizens ... considering that the illegals would generally want to conceal their presence here, and insurance might compromise the concealment effort.

It might be reasonable to assume that some illegals who have been here a long time might be insured, but assuming that 89% of them were insured would be ignoring entirely the legal non-citizens ... and I might expect that the legal immigrants would be more likely to have medical insurance. For example, I'm sure that there are many legal non-citizens in this country as employees of large, multi-national corporations (think Toyota, Olympus, & other companies that routinely have employees being temporarily assigned here in the US; and also have Americans routinely assigned to other countries as legal non-citizens in those countries). I would fully expect that such legal non-citizens would all have medical coverage.

I don't think it would be as reasonable to assume that illegal non-citizens have a higher percent of covered individuals than legal non-citizens.
I think your math is fuzzy;). 44% of all foreign born non-citizens are uninsured. I suspect that the number of uninsured is higher among the two-thirds that are illegals than it is among the one-third that are legals. If we assume that 75% of legals are insured (probably too high an estimate), then that would mean that about 46% of the illegals would be insured and 56% would be uninsured. That compares with 15% of the total population that is uninsured.

M&K's Retrievers
10-11-2009, 10:50 PM
I think your math is fuzzy;). 44% of all foreign born non-citizens are uninsured. I suspect that the number of uninsured is higher among the two-thirds that are illegals than it is among the one-third that are legals. If we assume that 75% of legals are insured (probably too high an estimate), then that would mean that about 46% of the illegals would be insured and 56% would be uninsured. That compares with 15% of the total population that is uninsured.

Jeff, I don't where you get your numbers but I'm sure that its closer to 100% of illegals are uninsured. Even if they could afford it, it would be dificult if not impossible for them to purchase it without SS numbers, bank accounts, health histories, drivers licenses or for that matter a home address or home phone number. Employers who hire illegals are not providing benefits so where are they getting this coverage you say they have? Get in the real world and stop believing all the crap you read.

M&K's Retrievers
10-12-2009, 07:54 PM
Jeff, I don't where you get your numbers but I'm sure that its closer to 100% of illegals are uninsured. Even if they could afford it, it would be dificult if not impossible for them to purchase it without SS numbers, bank accounts, health histories, drivers licenses or for that matter a home address or home phone number. Employers who hire illegals are not providing benefits so where are they getting this coverage you say they have? Get in the real world and stop believing all the crap you read.

Hmmmmm. No coment I guess??

YardleyLabs
10-12-2009, 10:08 PM
Hmmmmm. No coment I guess??
Believe it or not, I actually do things other than read this forum....

I cited the source for my data. Feel free to check it. I know both statistically and from personal experience that you are wrong. Many illegals have health insurance. In fact, many have regular, on the books jobs, with pay checks from which taxes are withheld every week as well. Some illegals actually entered the country legally, obtained social security numbers legally, but failed to leave when their visas expired. These people are actually able to obtain jobs with few obstacles. Others are able to work using invalid papers. Finally, in some states, some illegals may still receive Medicaid coverage which is classified as insurance fro purposes of identifying the uninsured. A number of states do not require proof of citizenship to enroll in Medicaid and a House bill to require such proof was defeated last July.

M&K's Retrievers
10-13-2009, 12:04 AM
Believe it or not, I actually do things other than read this forum....

I cited the source for my data. Feel free to check it. I know both statistically and from personal experience that you are wrong. Many illegals have health insurance. In fact, many have regular, on the books jobs, with pay checks from which taxes are withheld every week as well. Some illegals actually entered the country legally, obtained social security numbers legally, but failed to leave when their visas expired. These people are actually able to obtain jobs with few obstacles. Others are able to work using invalid papers. Finally, in some states, some illegals may still receive Medicaid coverage which is classified as insurance fro purposes of identifying the uninsured. A number of states do not require proof of citizenship to enroll in Medicaid and a House bill to require such proof was defeated last July.

Well, I did check out your source and illegal is not mentioned -not once. Foreign born does not mean illegal which I believe I mentioned earlier. You keep confusing/combining illegals with foreign born. Maybe your firm hires illegals and provides benefits to those with "documentation" but I doubt it. I could go on but after reading your source, my eyes are crossed and my head hurts. You didn't do that on purpose did you?

YardleyLabs
10-13-2009, 07:14 AM
Well, I did check out your source and illegal is not mentioned -not once. Foreign born does not mean illegal which I believe I mentioned earlier. You keep confusing/combining illegals with foreign born. Maybe your firm hires illegals and provides benefits to those with "documentation" but I doubt it. I could go on but after reading your source, my eyes are crossed and my head hurts. You didn't do that on purpose did you?
From Reuters:

"- A total of 9.7 million among the uninsured said they were "not a citizen." Foreign students and workers legally in the country as well as illegal immigrants are included in this sub-group, according to Census Bureau researchers.

- Census Bureau researchers are not allowed to ask respondents about their immigration status. Almost all estimates of the number of uninsured illegal immigrants are based on extrapolations from Census surveys.


- There are 6.1 million uninsured adults who are illegal immigrants and 700,000 uninsured children who are illegal immigrants, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Pew Hispanic Center, which was based on Census data."


The Census data do not mention illegals since they are not permitted to ask. They count everyone regardless of legal status. As a general rule, conservatives have been the ones most focused on the legal vs illegal status question as a basis for arguing that the uninsured population is primarily a problem of illegals. None of the estimates address the question of all illegals vs uninsured illegals. Many have addressed the question of the percentage of illegals among the total population of foreign born non-citizens. The Census data estimates the total number of non-citizen foreign born at 22 million: 56% with insurance and 44% (9.7 million) without. The number of foreign born illegals is generally estimated at about 12 million based on a study by the Pew Institute that is regularly cited by both conservatives and liberals (See http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=107). That would imply that 10 million of the foreign born non-citizens are here legally. It is also generally accepted that legal foreign born non-citizens are less likely to have health insurance than the general population.


Given these facts, it is clear that



Many illegal immigrants have health insurance (the total number of illegals exceeds the number of foreign born non-citizens without health insurance: 12 million - 9.7 million = 2.3 million).
Some of the foreign born non-citizens without health insurance are undoubtedly not covered by health insurance. If we assume that 15% of these people are not insured (the rate for the overall population), then the number of uninsured legal immigrants would total 1.5 million. These people would be part of the 9.7 million total uninsured foreign born non-citizens, leaving 8.2 million (9.7 - 1.5) of the uninsured foreign born non-citizens who are illegal immigrants out of the total population of 12 million illegals. That means that 3.8 million illegals (27%) actually have insurance (12 - 8.2). This estimate is probably low since I doubt that 85% of legals have health insurance
If we accept the Reuters estimate of about 6.8 million illegals without insurance, then 5.2 million illegals (44%), have insurance, which is the percentage I cited in my first post on this question.My company never knowingly hired an illegal immigrant. All had documentation. However, some had visas that expired -- a fact that we did not know -- and some went "out of status" while their applications were being processed. If ultimately approved, this was not an issue. If ultimately denied, they were terminated. However for the period of time that they were out of status they were technically illegal. All had health insurance.

I have no way of estimating how many of the documented immigrants that we hired were actually using forged documents. I suspect the percentage was very low since almost all of our staff had graduate degrees which we also verified and were working in highly technical fields. I suspect that the incidence of forged documents is much higher among manual laborers in transient jobs and that the efforts to weed out illegals are a lot less focused than ours.

Bob Gutermuth
10-13-2009, 09:50 AM
Simplist solution to keep from insuring illegals, SEND EM BACK. Get them off all the govt freebies they get and you would save the taxpaying folks a fortune, even with osama's give away the store programs.

M&K's Retrievers
10-13-2009, 10:40 AM
From Reuters:

"- A total of 9.7 million among the uninsured said they were "not a citizen." Foreign students and workers legally in the country as well as illegal immigrants are included in this sub-group, according to Census Bureau researchers.

- Census Bureau researchers are not allowed to ask respondents about their immigration status. Almost all estimates of the number of uninsured illegal immigrants are based on extrapolations from Census surveys.


- There are 6.1 million uninsured adults who are illegal immigrants and 700,000 uninsured children who are illegal immigrants, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Pew Hispanic Center, which was based on Census data."


The Census data do not mention illegals since they are not permitted to ask. They count everyone regardless of legal status. As a general rule, conservatives have been the ones most focused on the legal vs illegal status question as a basis for arguing that the uninsured population is primarily a problem of illegals. None of the estimates address the question of all illegals vs uninsured illegals. Many have addressed the question of the percentage of illegals among the total population of foreign born non-citizens. The Census data estimates the total number of non-citizen foreign born at 22 million: 56% with insurance and 44% (9.7 million) without. The number of foreign born illegals is generally estimated at about 12 million based on a study by the Pew Institute that is regularly cited by both conservatives and liberals (See http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=107). That would imply that 10 million of the foreign born non-citizens are here legally. It is also generally accepted that legal foreign born non-citizens are less likely to have health insurance than the general population.


Given these facts, it is clear that



Many illegal immigrants have health insurance (the total number of illegals exceeds the number of foreign born non-citizens without health insurance: 12 million - 9.7 million = 2.3 million).
Some of the foreign born non-citizens without health insurance are undoubtedly not covered by health insurance. If we assume that 15% of these people are not insured (the rate for the overall population), then the number of uninsured legal immigrants would total 1.5 million. These people would be part of the 9.7 million total uninsured foreign born non-citizens, leaving 8.2 million (9.7 - 1.5) of the uninsured foreign born non-citizens who are illegal immigrants out of the total population of 12 million illegals. That means that 3.8 million illegals (27%) actually have insurance (12 - 8.2). This estimate is probably low since I doubt that 85% of legals have health insurance
If we accept the Reuters estimate of about 6.8 million illegals without insurance, then 5.2 million illegals (44%), have insurance, which is the percentage I cited in my first post on this question.My company never knowingly hired an illegal immigrant. All had documentation. However, some had visas that expired -- a fact that we did not know -- and some went "out of status" while their applications were being processed. If ultimately approved, this was not an issue. If ultimately denied, they were terminated. However for the period of time that they were out of status they were technically illegal. All had health insurance.

I have no way of estimating how many of the documented immigrants that we hired were actually using forged documents. I suspect the percentage was very low since almost all of our staff had graduate degrees which we also verified and were working in highly technical fields. I suspect that the incidence of forged documents is much higher among manual laborers in transient jobs and that the efforts to weed out illegals are a lot less focused than ours.

"Census workers are not allowed to ask imigration status..." So it's a guesstimate...by census workers. Give me a break. That is as bad as taking ACORN 's estimates for something. I sincerely doubt that a census worker can get close to an illegal to question them. Jeff, when they see a government employee or a vehicle with a logo on it's side their gone. Your are putting too much faith in these "studies". Check out the real world :D

ducknwork
10-13-2009, 12:15 PM
Just today the Dept of Homeland Security paid a visit to our Human Resources department. I don't know how many other people were affected, but I know there is one mexican guy that got 'let go' in my plant. He has been working here for years, paid taxes, had health insurance and worked hard. Supposedly, he even had a SS card. I guess he doesn't fit the stereotypical illegal immigrant that many of us have in mind. Oh well, illegal is illegal. He was a nice guy, but now there's a job opening for an american.
________
Expert Insurance (http://xpertinsurance.com/)

YardleyLabs
10-13-2009, 12:32 PM
"Census workers are not allowed to ask imigration status..." So it's a guesstimate...by census workers. Give me a break. That is as bad as taking ACORN 's estimates for something. I sincerely doubt that a census worker can get close to an illegal to question them. Jeff, when they see a government employee or a vehicle with a logo on it's side their gone. Your are putting too much faith in these "studies". Check out the real world :D
The Census makes no guesstimate. If you looked at my reference for the number of illegals, you would have found a Pew Institute study that was pretty well designed. Your fundamental premise that illegals can't possibly be in jobs with health insurance is simply wrong, as is also shown in ducknwork's post above.

M&K's Retrievers
10-13-2009, 01:16 PM
The Census makes no guesstimate. If you looked at my reference for the number of illegals, you would have found a Pew Institute study that was pretty well designed. Your fundamental premise that illegals can't possibly be in jobs with health insurance is simply wrong, as is also shown in ducknwork's post above.

Do you really believe the census takes into account every illegal in the country? They couldn't keep up with the total if they stood guard at the border and counted them as they come across (and come across again after they are sent back).
Yes, some have coverage. A client of mine even attempted to put in a group plan to cover all his "legal" employees. He wanted to reduce turnover. Man the $hit hit the fan. Duplicate SS numbers, 11 employees living at the same address, employees asking for the money instead of coverage so they could send the money home, fake names. It was a mess that he wished he never started.
The majority of illegals are from Mexico (from your Pew Report which by the way makes no mention of insurance). They are employed in low paying positions in construction, maintance, lawn care, domestics. You can't convince me these folks have any coverage.

ducknwork
10-13-2009, 02:13 PM
More details arriving by the minute...

It turns out that his green card and SS card were shared by him and his father. There were two others that were busted in another plant on site yesterday.

Looks like he earned a free plane ticket to Mexico.
________
Sweet_raspberry (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/sweet_raspberry/)

M&K's Retrievers
10-13-2009, 03:14 PM
More details arriving by the minute...

It turns out that his green card and SS card were shared by him and his father. There were two others that were busted in another plant on site yesterday.

Looks like he earned a free plane ticket to Mexico.

Another reason most illegals work in occupations less likely to check individual information closely and therefore less likely to provide benefits. It's the real world not some evaulation of information collected by a bean counter who only has to make sure all the blanks on their forms are filled in.

Franco
10-13-2009, 09:36 PM
Let me add that they darn well should not be getting medicaid!!!! Why the heck should the gov't steal my money and give it to ILLEGALS!!!!! I would really love to hear your defense of that. THese are people who are CRIMINALS!!!

Because our Treasonist government is pandering for the Hispanic vote. They place thier political careers above the well-being of the American citizen. And, because our leadership is so weak, the backlash of the American people when our economy crashes, our healthcare become too expensive and unavailable, and our inability to keep world terrorist in check will be a violent backlash.

M&K's Retrievers
10-14-2009, 12:08 AM
Because our Treasonist government is pandering for the Hispanic vote. They place thier political careers above the well-being of the American citizen. And, because our leadership is so weak, the backlash of the American people when our economy crashes, our healthcare become too expensive and unavailable, and our inability to keep world terrorist in check will be a violent backlash.

Yeah, but at least we got the first penalty in last night's MNF called in Espanol...

JDogger
10-14-2009, 12:31 AM
Yeah, but at least we got the first penalty in last night's MNF called in Espanol...

So...? What if a handler gives his dog commands in Spanish? The judge doesn't understand. Toss the dog and handler? Or, watch the dog work?

JD

YardleyLabs
10-14-2009, 06:27 AM
Because our Treasonist government is pandering for the Hispanic vote. They place thier political careers above the well-being of the American citizen. And, because our leadership is so weak, the backlash of the American people when our economy crashes, our healthcare become too expensive and unavailable, and our inability to keep world terrorist in check will be a violent backlash.
Silly me. I thought pandering to citizens was an essential element of democracy and what the teabag parties were demanding more of.:rolleyes:

Franco
10-14-2009, 09:53 AM
Key word is citizens. Both parties have been pandering to the illegals and one ethnic group of citizens. Citizens in the last eection were not given a choice as both candidates pandered to that ethnic group and illegals.

The Tea Parties started out as protest against out of control government spending. It has grown now to include all issues that they are against. I went to the first one on April 15th protesting the out of control spending. I haven't gone to any others because they have lost thier focus.

M&K's Retrievers
10-14-2009, 10:36 AM
Best not give up on the Tea Parties now.