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Fowlfeller1100
12-12-2009, 10:22 PM
What should the legal age of consumption and purchase be in the US of A??? And why?

ducknwork
12-13-2009, 06:46 AM
Not 21, that's for sure.

YardleyLabs
12-13-2009, 06:55 AM
Interesting question. When I was a kid in Switzerland and Italy, there was no age limit. I drank wine and beer regularly beginning at age 12. After getting violently drunk a few times at the age of 14, I decided I hated that and have not been truly drunk since. When I returned to America for college, the drinking age was 21. However, just as I turned 21, it was reduced to 18 on the basis that if you were old enough to die in Vietnam, you were old enough to vote and drink. I still believe there is merit to that position. However, it is also clear that driving while intoxicated seems to be a particular issue for the younger among us. My ex wife's suggested approach was straightforward. Get rid of the drinking age but don't allow driver's licenses to be issued to anyone under the age of 25.;-)

I would tend to opt for a policy that makes drinking legal for any legal adult -- age 18. I would also permit younger children to drink in the company of their parents.

road kill
12-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Interesting question. When I was a kid in Switzerland and Italy, there was no age limit. I drank wine and beer regularly beginning at age 12. After getting violently drunk a few times at the age of 14, I decided I hated that and have not been truly drunk since. When I returned to America for college, the drinking age was 21. However, just as I turned 21, it was reduced to 18 on the basis that if you were old enough to die in Vietnam, you were old enough to vote and drink. I still believe there is merit to that position. However, it is also clear that driving while intoxicated seems to be a particular issue for the younger among us. My ex wife's suggested approach was straightforward. Get rid of the drinking age but don't allow driver's licenses to be issued to anyone under the age of 25.;-)

I would tend to opt for a policy that makes drinking legal for any legal adult -- age 18. I would also permit younger children to drink in the company of their parents.
That's ridiculus, I defy you to show one state that lowered the drinking age laws based on that criteria.
You can't, they didn't.

In the early 70's in MO you could drink beer at 18.
It was subsequently raised to 21 in 1974.
I guess they raised it becuase Viet Nam was over?


ABSURD regards,

dnf777
12-13-2009, 08:26 AM
Very simple answer:

For responsible people -- any age (with adult supervision under 18)

For irresponsible people -- never


The older I get, the more I like the 21 limit, but in all fairness, I find it difficult to ask 18 year olds to sign up for the selective service, and ask them to march into battle, but then wait 3 more years to be "old enough" to have a victory toast.

subroc
12-13-2009, 08:51 AM
What was the old saw back when the same argument was was made after they raised the age form 18 to 21.

When you go fight for your country we'll give you a drink.

road kill
12-13-2009, 09:00 AM
Very simple answer:

For responsible people -- any age (with adult supervision under 18)

For irresponsible people -- never


The older I get, the more I like the 21 limit, but in all fairness, I find it difficult to ask 18 year olds to sign up for the selective service, and ask them to march into battle, but then wait 3 more years to be "old enough" to have a victory toast.

#1---What does signing up for the Selective Service have to do with maturity?
#2---What percentage of 18 year olds are marching into battle?

Sorry DNF, that is an old hippy argument (rationalization).

You think an 18 year old at a home should be able to drink because some OTHER 18 year old is in the military>
Convoluted reasoning at best!!

stan b

TN_LAB
12-13-2009, 09:17 AM
Maybe they ought to take a page from the military. How about a booze boot camp? :p

At 18, if you want to drink they take you from your home for a couple months and essentially take away all your freedoms while they train you on what to do and how to drink responsibly. Lastly, they never let them drink without a commander's supervision (i got no problem with this so long as the taxpayers don't foot the bill).

Politicians can count. They know that 18 year olds don't vote while those that would oppose this (their parents and parent's neighbors) DO vote.

Pete
12-13-2009, 09:27 AM
There is alot to be said about not making something a sin
My experience is similar to Jeffs.
we were alowed to drink alcohole with meals and no big deal was made
non of us grew up sloshes.
We always drank whisky with home made chicken soup,, That'll cure what ales you.
And my dad would let us have a glass of beer when company came over
for a kid its fun but you know it really doesnt taste good to a kid,, so after a while we not not even think about it.

I'm the only one of my brothers who probably ever got drunk as I approached man hood,,and it was only a few times,,after the horendous fight with a tree I quit doing that

Pete

ducknwork
12-13-2009, 09:38 AM
Maybe they ought to take a page from the military. How about a booze boot camp? :p

At 18, if you want to drink they take you from your home for a couple months and essentially take away all your freedoms while they train you on what to do and how to drink responsibly. Lastly, they never let them drink without a commander's supervision (i got no problem with this so long as the taxpayers don't foot the bill).



It already exists.

They call it 'college'. Oh, wait. You said responsibly...my bad.

dnf777
12-13-2009, 11:11 AM
#1---What does signing up for the Selective Service have to do with maturity?
#2---What percentage of 18 year olds are marching into battle?

Sorry DNF, that is an old hippy argument (rationalization).

You think an 18 year old at a home should be able to drink because some OTHER 18 year old is in the military>
Convoluted reasoning at best!!

stan b

I think I said I like the 21 limit....but in general, if we expect boys of a certain age to sign up and possibly serve, we're applying a certain level of responsibility across the board. That same generalization should apply to drinking also.

I'm flattered you said I was using a "hippy argument". When I was 18-21, I was the biggest Ronald Reagan fan, conservative, crew-cut high and tight kill 'em all gung-go type you've ever seen, who was either in school, working as a lineman at the airport, or downing some longnecks with my friends after work. Anything but "hippie". My favorite song was Merle Haggards 'okie from muskogee'.

People are going to be responsible or not regardless of a drinking age law. Draw the line wherever you want. I don't know of ANYONE who wanted to drink, but waited until their 21st birthday...and that's a LOT of people!

WRL
12-13-2009, 11:22 AM
I think I said I like the 21 limit....but in general, if we expect boys of a certain age to sign up and possibly serve, we're applying a certain level of responsibility across the board. That same generalization should apply to drinking also.

I'm flattered you said I was using a "hippy argument". When I was 18-21, I was the biggest Ronald Reagan fan, conservative, crew-cut high and tight kill 'em all gung-go type you've ever seen, who was either in school, working as a lineman at the airport, or downing some longnecks with my friends after work. Anything but "hippie". My favorite song was Merle Haggards 'okie from muskogee'.

People are going to be responsible or not regardless of a drinking age law. Draw the line wherever you want. I don't know of ANYONE who wanted to drink, but waited until their 21st birthday...and that's a LOT of people!

A law to not drink will not keep those that want to drink from doing so.

A law to make someone have car insurance will not make someone have car insurance if they don't want to.

A law to make someone have health insurance will not make someone have health insurance if they don't want to.

See the similarities here?????

WRL

Pete
12-13-2009, 11:33 AM
Just a side point
God gave Adam anything he needed ,,he could do anything his heart felt to do ,,,except 1 thing,,,, well thats human nature ,,we want to try the 1 thing which is forbidden,,,and the rest is history. Adam didint have a peer group,,,so I guess its much harder if everybody around you is telling you to try it,,, rather than just 1 snake in the grass

Pete

dnf777
12-13-2009, 11:39 AM
A law to not drink will not keep those that want to drink from doing so.

A law to make someone have car insurance will not make someone have car insurance if they don't want to.

A law to make someone have health insurance will not make someone have health insurance if they don't want to.

See the similarities here?????

WRL

Couldn't agree more. That was my point when I said draw the line wherever you want--people are going to drink when they want to. I lived in Beauregard Parish, La, where it was a dry Parish. Don't know how the roadsides got littered with all those beer cans? ;-)

ducknwork
12-13-2009, 12:00 PM
Couldn't agree more. That was my point when I said draw the line wherever you want--people are going to drink when they want to. I lived in Beauregard Parish, La, where it was a dry Parish. Don't know how the roadsides got littered with all those beer cans? ;-)

DUH! They grew from beer can seeds that the DOT planted...

Fowlfeller1100
12-13-2009, 12:16 PM
Just a question... I know that at one point the age of majority was 21, was this lowered to 18 during dubbya dubbya deuce?

YardleyLabs
12-13-2009, 12:44 PM
Just a question... I know that at one point the age of majority was 21, was this lowered to 18 during dubbya dubbya deuce?
The first impetus for lowering the voting age from 21 to 18 began in WWII after the draft age was reduced from 20 to 18. There were numerous such proposals over the years, but they began to reach a head in the late 60's in conection with the growth in the number of young men being drafted and sent to war. Contrary to RK's assertions, that was a major force as many states began passing laws to reduce the drinking age (see, for example, http://www.why21.org/history/).

In 1970, Congress voted to reduce the voting age to 18 as well. However, the Supreme Court ruled that to be illegal. In reaction, in the spring of 1971, the 26th amendment was adopted by Congress and then ratified by the requisite number of states in just a few months, becoming law in July 1970. In response almost all remaining states reduced the drinking age as well. However, the number of alcohol related traffic accidents began to rise quickly. Some studies also showed an increase in the number of suicides of persons aged 18-20 increasing as well. In reaction the Federal Highway administration linked Federal support for roads to adoption of age 21 as the limit for drinking and almost every state complied quickly. The US remains one of the only countries in the world that restricts drinking for persons aged 18 and older.

road kill
12-13-2009, 01:02 PM
The first impetus for lowering the voting age from 21 to 18 began in WWII after the draft age was reduced from 20 to 18. There were numerous such proposals over the years, but they began to reach a head in the late 60's in conection with the growth in the number of young men being drafted and sent to war. Contrary to RK's assertions, that was a major force as many states began passing laws to reduce the drinking age (see, for example, http://www.why21.org/history/).

In 1970, Congress voted to reduce the voting age to 18 as well. However, the Supreme Court ruled that to be illegal. In reaction, in the spring of 1971, the 26th amendment was adopted by Congress and then ratified by the requisite number of states in just a few months, becoming law in July 1970. In response almost all remaining states reduced the drinking age as well. However, the number of alcohol related traffic accidents began to rise quickly. Some studies also showed an increase in the number of suicides of persons aged 18-20 increasing as well. In reaction the Federal Highway administration linked Federal support for roads to adoption of age 21 as the limit for drinking and almost every state complied quickly. The US remains one of the only countries in the world that restricts drinking for persons aged 18 and older.

Contrary to your patronizing "assertion," there is NO evidence in that goofy blog or in any legal action that ties the drinking age to enlistment age.
You argument is that if 10 kids go in the military, the other 990 out of 1,000 should get to drink is foolish.

BTW, here is a quote from your dream site.
The results were conclusive and tragic:

"The results of this “natural experiment” were fairly immediate and hard to miss: The decrease in the drinking age brought about an increase in alcohol traffic fatalities and injuries. So much so that, by 1983, 16 states voluntarily raised their drinking age back to 21—a move that brought about an immediate decrease in drinking and driving traffic fatalities incidents."

My pleasure to point out your folley, wonder if any of your "assertions" are based on anything but.......


stan b

dnf777
12-13-2009, 01:43 PM
Contrary to your patronizing "assertion," there is NO evidence in that goofy blog or in any legal action that ties the drinking age to enlistment age.
You argument is that if 10 kids go in the military, the other 990 out of 1,000 should get to drink is foolish.

BTW, here is a quote from your dream site.
The results were conclusive and tragic:

"The results of this “natural experiment” were fairly immediate and hard to miss: The decrease in the drinking age brought about an increase in alcohol traffic fatalities and injuries. So much so that, by 1983, 16 states voluntarily raised their drinking age back to 21—a move that brought about an immediate decrease in drinking and driving traffic fatalities incidents."

My pleasure to point out your folley, wonder if any of your "assertions" are based on anything but.......


stan b

What's your thought? I understand your point about one 18 year old going to war doesn't make another at home responsible to drink. I was referring to societal norms that we establish, in a broader sense. 18 year olds can fight and die, sign contracts, get married, vote and buy and shoot guns, consent or refuse to life altering medical procedures......but not have a beer?

In medicine, we use outcome-based decision models. No matter what shoulda, coulda, makes more sense.....its what produces the desired OUTCOME at the end of the day, is what's done. If raising the drinking age to 21 indeed resulted in a dramatic reduction in highway fatalities, then it's really hard to argue against it.

Fellow conservative multi-millionaire CEO of Molson-Miller (parent of Coors apparently?) Pete Coors has argued loudly for years that the age should be lowered back to 18. Of course, he would stand to profit immensely from this, personally. He stated that kids will drink anyway, so why should the gov't criminalize them? Of course, some CEOs of beer companies will drink anyway also and get DUIs that they plead down to lesser charges and then run for the senate

road kill
12-13-2009, 01:48 PM
What's your thought? I understand your point about one 18 year old going to war doesn't make another at home responsible to drink. I was referring to societal norms that we establish, in a broader sense. 18 year olds can fight and die, sign contracts, get married, vote and buy and shoot guns, consent or refuse to life altering medical procedures......but not have a beer?

In medicine, we use outcome-based decision models. No matter what shoulda, coulda, makes more sense.....its what produces the desired OUTCOME at the end of the day, is what's done. If raising the drinking age to 21 indeed resulted in a dramatic reduction in highway fatalities, then it's really hard to argue against it.

Fellow conservative multi-millionaire CEO of Molson-Miller (parent of Coors apparently?) Pete Coors has argued loudly for years that the age should be lowered back to 18. Of course, he would stand to profit immensely from this, personally. He stated that kids will drink anyway, so why should the gov't criminalize them? Of course, some CEOs of beer companies will drink anyway also and get DUIs that they plead down to lesser charges and then run for the senate

In my opinion, which is all it is, 18 for beer, 21 for liquor.

1st DUI=2 years in jail.
2nd DUI=Execution.

Watch how quick it gets cleaned up.

Roger Perry
12-13-2009, 02:12 PM
When I was in high school, the drinking age in Wisconsin's Washington County was 18 for beer and wine in so called minor bars. Where they served hard liquor you had to be 21 to be allowed into those establisments.

However, that never stopped us from drinking 16 years old if we wanted to. We always found someone to buy beer for us.

Fowlfeller1100
12-13-2009, 07:44 PM
if 10 kids go in the military, the other 990 out of 1,000 should get to drink is foolish.



stan b

But if 10 kids DWI should another 990 be in effect held accountable for their peers actions? (10/1000=1/100=1% if these numbers are any more clear...)

Also I recognize and appreciate those who voluntarilly enlist and fight especuially in a time of war, but we should not forget that registration with the selctive service is mandatory. And many men (yes men, not boys) have gone and fought for Uncle Sam whether they liked it or not...

road kill
12-14-2009, 06:58 AM
When I was in high school, the drinking age in Wisconsin's Washington County was 18 for beer and wine in so called minor bars. Where they served hard liquor you had to be 21 to be allowed into those establisments.

However, that never stopped us from drinking 16 years old if we wanted to. We always found someone to buy beer for us.

WHAT???:confused:

badbullgator
12-14-2009, 08:08 AM
Drinking age in Florida was 18 until 82/83. I was just on the 18 year old side of the law. Guess who bought for all their friends who were a year younger.
MHO is who cares 16, 18 30
The bigger question is why are there people sitting in jail for possession of marijuana

road kill
12-14-2009, 08:14 AM
Drinking age in Florida was 18 until 82/83. I was just on the 18 year old side of the law. Guess who bought for all their friends who were a year younger.
MHO is who cares 16, 18 30
The bigger question is why are there people sitting in jail for possession of marijuana

Here is the bigger dichotomy on that issue.

Why are people with 5 & 6 DUI's still NOT in jail??

Gerry Clinchy
12-14-2009, 09:25 AM
becoming law in July 1970. In response almost all remaining states reduced the drinking age as well. However, the number of alcohol related traffic accidents began to rise quickly. Some studies also showed an increase in the number of suicides of persons aged 18-20 increasing as well. In reaction the Federal Highway administration linked Federal support for roads to adoption of age 21 as the limit for drinking and almost every state complied quickly. The US remains one of the only countries in the world that restricts drinking for persons aged 18 and older.

Seems logical that drinking at age 18 will increase DUIs ... none of us is really all that smart when we are 18 :-)

Part of the argument for the age 18 drinking age was the draft age argument mentioned. The other was that if you were old enough to vote, you should be old enough to drink. Come to think of it, maybe the voting age should be raised as well if we aren't that smart at 18?

NYS used to be 18, and adjoining CT was 21. Guess where the teens went to party? Ultimately, NY raised its drinking age to 21 since NY and CT agreed that it was a problem for DUIs.

I think Europe is less focused on this (not sure why) ... as a kid in an Italian immigrant family, the young kids were allowed to have wine diluted with water on special occasions (like Christmas dinner). I don't know that anyone from such families grew up to be alcoholics any more than families with stricter alcohol attitudes.

Fowlfeller1100
12-14-2009, 09:35 AM
The state line crossing to drink still exists in a big way, the drinking age in the great white north is 18 or 19 depending on which province, guess where the kids from colleges near the border are driving to and from on a Saturday night...

I think perhaps the underlying problem is that we aren't fully granting adults the rights that they ought to recieve as adults, in exchange for the down sides of becoming an adult. Anyone who votes or is registered in the selective service can't rightfully be regarded as "sort of adult". Perhaps the big kid age should be 18 or 21, but at that point one does assume both the rights and responsibilities of adulthood. Also I'm not sure if this is true of all Candian provinces but in Ontario I belive there is an extra year of public school and so 19 years seems somewhat more appropriate.

Another age old question, if (drinking is) a victimless crime (this assumes a responsible drinker) is it ethical to prosecute?

subroc
12-14-2009, 09:46 AM
insurance companies have scales based on age which in essence treat the young as "sort of an adults" based on accident rates.

a bright line is importand in determining adulthood, but all issues aren't linked to adulthood. Some are linked to responsibility.

YardleyLabs
12-14-2009, 09:46 AM
Seems logical that drinking at age 18 will increase DUIs ... none of us is really all that smart when we are 18 :-)

Part of the argument for the age 18 drinking age was the draft age argument mentioned. The other was that if you were old enough to vote, you should be old enough to drink. Come to think of it, maybe the voting age should be raised as well if we aren't that smart at 18?

NYS used to be 18, and adjoining CT was 21. Guess where the teens went to party? Ultimately, NY raised its drinking age to 21 since NY and CT agreed that it was a problem for DUIs.

I think Europe is less focused on this (not sure why) ... as a kid in an Italian immigrant family, the young kids were allowed to have wine diluted with water on special occasions (like Christmas dinner). I don't know that anyone from such families grew up to be alcoholics any more than families with stricter alcohol attitudes.
I think one of the major differences between the US and Europe is in access to cars by teens. Throughout Europe the minimum age for driving is 18 and the licensing requirements are much more rigorous than in the US (In Italy for example, the drivers exam includes changing a tire and demonstrating a knowledge of other basic maintenance tasks). Beyond that, however, there is no real culture of car ownership among teens. Very few have access to cars on a routine basis and rely on public transportation instead. Overall car ownership in Europe ranges from about 50-70% of levels found in the US and total miles driven per vehicle is lower still. High gasoline prices and a lot less open land contribute to lower levels of driving and probably reduce the incidence of accidents as well.

Fowlfeller1100
12-14-2009, 10:36 AM
I've always thought that it was funny how Germany and the US have reversed driving drinking laws. In the US a drivers liscence can usually be had at 16 by most people but the drinking age is 21. In Germany 21 is the driving age and getting a liscence requires alot of money (to the tune of 2K belive) plus passing a far more rigorus test. And in Germany the drinking age is 16 for beer und wine, 18 for the hard stuff. I think that this sort of system would help adress an alarming drinking trend where drinking is learned about and experimented with away from the judgment of parents, and the hard stuff being often cheaper and more concealable is increasing the choice of underage drinkers. This does not result in healthy habits...

UPDATE: Germanies driving age is 18, but I still think that their system would keep alot of Dummkopfs of of the road who really shouldn't be driving...

subroc
12-14-2009, 10:45 AM
Do you drive to work?

Is there public transportation for you to get there?

In Germany, how does the public transportation differ?

Fowlfeller1100
12-14-2009, 12:49 PM
I'm not from Germany I was just using it as an example, sorry if that was misleading. I will admit to being a bit of a germanophile though..

Jim Danis
12-14-2009, 03:47 PM
SUBROC
In Germany the public transportation sytem is great. I was stationed there for 3 years and never needed a vehicle. I could take a train from one end of Europe to the other. In Berlin, where I was stationed, I could either take the U-Bahn, subway, or a bus or a taxi where ever I wanted to go.

When I turned 18, 1982, the drinking age was still 18 for beer/wine and 21 for liquer. In 83 NC started raising the age limet 1 year every year until it was 21 for all alcohol. I think they need to go back to the old age limits. I never really saw where it made any difference to raise the age limit.

subroc
12-14-2009, 04:33 PM
I don't really care one way or the other really. When I turned 18 in Feb, 1973, the drinking age changed from 21 to 18 a couple weeks later on March 3rd. I find it strange that I remeber the date! It seemed like a big deal at the time.

I just am not sure the military argument holds much water.

My question relating to public transportation in Germany is specific to them having drivers licences at 21. It is easy to have your society wait if they have a means of transport. Imagine a rural kid having to wait until he/she is 21 before they could drive in the United States? They would really be at a disadvantage.

Marvin S
12-14-2009, 10:54 PM
I think that this sort of system would help address an alarming drinking trend where drinking is learned about and experimented with away from the judgment of parents,

Fully Agree - There needs to be a responsible adult in the mix.

As for doing these things everyone discusses - I was driving our new Farmall F-10 in the fields at the age of 9, driving a 2 ton grain truck with no brakes to the elevator at age 13 & could outwork most city types at the age of 15. But that was not unusual for farm kids in those days. SD did not have a state drivers license until 1955 & you could drink 3.2% beer at 18, legally. The only big deal was draft registration & serving.

My grandpa gave me swigs of beer from the time I was probably 5, so it was never done because it was prohibited, it was rather fun to get a load on when I got older. My cousin & I got into Grandpa's home brew one time, they found us both passed out in the basement after 1 bottle together :cool: That's what boys did in farming communities: work, drink, fight & chase the chicks.

Probably 35 years ago I was fighting a speeding ticket, the guy in front of me was in with his 9th DUI - in a 2 year time frame - the judge gave him a suspended sentence. :confused:

Maybe we could have the education system teach Responsible Drinking, as they do such a great job teaching Sex Ed. Just kidding :eek::eek::eek:

Terri
12-14-2009, 11:27 PM
I really don't care what age the government choose to define adulthood. I just want it to be the same for all things - drinking, smoking, voting, military, ear piercing, driving, independence from parents - college funding, abortion, insurance, and murder. I have a hard time keeping track all these different age limits. Make my job as a parent of a teenager and a twenty year old easier.


Wishing I lived in La La Land.
Terri

road kill
12-15-2009, 06:20 AM
I really don't care what age the government choose to define adulthood. I just want it to be the same for all things - drinking, smoking, voting, military, ear piercing, driving, independence from parents - college funding, abortion, insurance, and murder. I have a hard time keeping track all these different age limits. Make my job as a parent of a teenager and a twenty year old easier.
Wishing I lived in La La Land.
Terri


No it won't!!;-)

Bob Gutermuth
12-15-2009, 11:02 AM
21. I was a young cop when Maryland lowered the age to 18. We had more bar fights, destruction of property and such that was related to drinking then was reasonable. When they finally retreated and raised it back to 21, the call volumns went down related to alcohol.

Fowlfeller1100
12-15-2009, 04:42 PM
I would certainely agree that lowering the age would probably cause some short term wildness. Instead of dipping their toes first, and then slowely wading into the alcohol, the newely liberated would tend to cannonball or swan dive in (very poetic no?). But I think that as the generations go on this effect would be diminished.

I still thibk that it is imperitve that this is learned at home; when a person turns 16 their parents don't hand them the keys and say "have fun", when most people can legally purchase a firearm at 18 they generally have some previous experience and knowledge of saftey practices (this isn't always the case but I would tend to belive this is what is most typical).

subroc
12-15-2009, 05:23 PM
BTW, how old are you?

Fowlfeller1100
12-15-2009, 06:42 PM
With all due respect I don't like to disclose very much personal information over the internet... sorry.

badbullgator
12-15-2009, 07:09 PM
With all due respect I don't like to disclose very much personal information over the internet... sorry.


:rolleyes:
yeah there is a lot of age theft going on out there so better not let your age slip out on the interweb:rolleyes:

YardleyLabs
12-15-2009, 07:17 PM
:rolleyes:
yeah there is a lot of age theft going on out there so better not let your age slip out on the interweb:rolleyes:
You can have half of my age, no questions asked.:D

subroc
12-15-2009, 07:38 PM
:D chuckling :D

I think you are probably little more than a child wanting to cry because you aren't allowed to drink at 16...

Fowlfeller1100
12-15-2009, 08:57 PM
Yeah I probably go overboard on the security...

JDogger
12-15-2009, 09:54 PM
Yeah I probably go overboard on the security...

Most of us who post on RTF PP have probably already been profiled by one agency or another. Don't kid yourselves.

JD