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precisionlabradors
01-15-2010, 09:20 PM
With all the conservatives on here, I'm just wondering who has and has not accepted some sort of govt assistance at one point in their life.

I'll start. I went to public school. Thanks tax payers. And I received pell grants in college. Thanks again.

I've never accessed any sort of health care service or disability.

If it's not too personal, who has accepted what?
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subroc
01-16-2010, 01:24 AM
I'll raise you a hypocrite...

Matt McKenzie
01-16-2010, 03:53 AM
I've received government dollars twice a month since June of 1987. Government-run health care, too.

YardleyLabs
01-16-2010, 06:29 AM
I was employed in government for almost eight years in the 70's, and attended public schools for six years. Both of my kids attended public elementary and secondary schools. Over the years, the companies I have worked with have done substantial work under government contracts. More importantly, I depend on government services for almost everything I do on a daily basis (e.g., roads).

Juli H
01-16-2010, 06:53 AM
assist - to help....... which in my mind means that you are receiving the aid w/out the requirement of paying back what has been 'given' you.....

under that definition I have never received assistance from the gov't as an adult. As a child, my mother was on food stamps for a short time (less than 6 months).

Juli

Julie R.
01-16-2010, 08:06 AM
Well....let's see, how to calculate the value of my Section 8, food stamps benefit card and WIC.... ;-)

Went to public schools for 9 years, thanks taxpayers, but I really think you should put teaching foreign languages back in K-6th grade, kids love it and I was well ahead of my private school classmates in high school.

Went to semi public university, U.Va., on full private scholarship (endowment funded) the first year, partial the next 3 and student loans, all of which were paid back within 2 years of graduation.

Dined at the public trough (the White House and Dept. of State) early/mid 1980s. Declined a foreign service posting (to Mogadishu) and left govt. 1986.

Since then I've been a democrat, a tree hugger, on welfare and livin' large in my Section 8 crib. :cool:

road kill
01-16-2010, 08:36 AM
Let's see;

I went to public schools, but there was no competition since we were not Catholic or Lutheran so there was no choice.
Went to a state college for FREE!!
Well sort of, all the girls paid to see me play!!:D

Got a 4 year all expenses free vacation at YOUR expense.
Well sort of, I had to get shot at a couple times.

Got laid off in 1979 cause the economy tanked so I took UC for a couple months.

Used the GI bill to finish my degree, that was free.
Well sort of, since it was more pay for getting shot at.
But I used it, I admit it.

But basically my old pappy taught me to rely on....ME!!

AndI do.

Now, would you like to add up all the taxes and other Gov't expenses I have laid out to see where the ledger is??

You see, these programs are not FREE!!

I paid for them!!

My services, part of my life, part of my soul (ever see anyone die or been in a firefight??), income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, auto & truck licenses, motorcycle licenses, hunting and fishing licenses, corporate income taxes, inheritance taxes, sales taxes, postage stamps etc.


I think I have given as much as I have taken!!:D

Hypocrit regards........:rolleyes:


rk

precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 08:48 AM
yeah, i was thinkin..we all enjoy the roads, infrastructure, clean water and air, food that won't kill us.

but that's not what i'm talking about.

how many of us have received services. if you never have, state that too. just curious with all the conservatives on here. this thread is motivated by my brother...he is an oil exploration geologist. didn't work all through school, had 2 kids on the govt dime, came out of school hired on at 100k+, turned uber republican, and now hates all services and speaks out vehemently against welfare.

i forgot to add, my salary is paid by the govt. mental health and addictions counselor.
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subroc
01-16-2010, 09:05 AM
Does believing the government shouldn't provide such a panoply of services preclude someone from taking advantage of those that are offered?

david gibson
01-16-2010, 09:24 AM
yeah, i was thinkin..we all enjoy the roads, infrastructure, clean water and air, food that won't kill us.

but that's not what i'm talking about.

how many of us have received services. if you never have, state that too. just curious with all the conservatives on here. this thread is motivated by my brother...he is an oil exploration geologist. didn't work all through school, had 2 kids on the govt dime, came out of school hired on at 100k+, turned uber republican, and now hates all services and speaks out vehemently against welfare.

i forgot to add, my salary is paid by the govt. mental health and addictions counselor.

if roads etc. are not considered, i think public school should be out of the equation since it is an unqualifying service paid by your (or parents) taxes. in otherwords, its not a subsistence or assistance program.

otherwise, for the first time in my life i am unemployed and drawing my unemployment, and i intend to draw every penny i have coming while i get my own business off the ground and get income rolling in. get a solid $408 a week! made more than that in a day. oh yeah - i get an extra $25 each week in federal stimulus money!! whoopee!

on the plus side, my wife is the director of a WIC program so we benefit from public services by helping provide them.

and she is even more conservative than i am

precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 09:26 AM
Does believing the government shouldn't provide such a panoply of services preclude someone from taking advantage of those that are offered?

ill answer when you do. what services have you denied or received?
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subroc
01-16-2010, 09:30 AM
I will take advantage of every service that I am legally authorized by law to take advantage of if and when needed.

That should pretty much cover it.

DSemple
01-16-2010, 09:31 AM
yeah, i was thinkin..we all enjoy the roads, infrastructure, clean water and air, food that won't kill us.

but that's not what i'm talking about.

how many of us have received services. if you never have, state that too. just curious with all the conservatives on here. this thread is motivated by my brother...he is an oil exploration geologist. didn't work all through school, had 2 kids on the govt dime, came out of school hired on at 100k+, turned uber republican, and now hates all services and speaks out vehemently against welfare.
i forgot to add, my salary is paid by the govt. mental health and addictions counselor.

Well lets see,

If your brother has a working career life of 40 years and continues to make 100 K a year between the Fed & State Income Taxes, Sales Taxes, Property Taxes, Fuel Taxes, Fica Tax, Medicare & Medicaid Taxes, Unempolyment Insurance, Cities Earning Taxes, and I've probably left out quite a number of additional hidden taxes that are passed along in the products we buy, your brother like most of us here is paying between 40 and 50% of our wages in some form of taxation.

So in other words your brother is going to pay in accumulated taxes over his life something like:

40 Years x $100,000 x 40 % = $1,600,000 Million dollars in Taxes.

I think he has every right to complain and vote however he likes.

Maybe you should get a second job so you too can do your share.

Furthermore, you chose your life and profession quit complaining.

luvmylabs23139
01-16-2010, 09:39 AM
I don't think the answer is as simple as "I went to public school".
My parents paid way more per year just in local property taxes than the per student cost X2 (both kids). So in all honesty they paid for more than just their kids education.
Same town, no paid fire service,and my dad was on the unpaid mbulance service and once I turned 18 I got certified as an EMT at my expense and was on call. MY brother at the same age was an unpaid firefighter.
Small town, taxes did not include many big city services such as garbage, water and sewer.
So no,it was all paid for with my family's moneyplus some including going out in the middle of the night to help other people.

subroc
01-16-2010, 09:47 AM
Well, precisionlabradors really doesn't want to know that. she is just waiting untill she has enough information to throw the hypocrite tag around.

precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 09:51 AM
Well, precisionlabradors really doesn't want to know that. she is just waiting untill she has enough information to throw the hypocrite tag around.

nice assumptions. she. haha.

just curious as to what all the folks that speak out about welfare receive.

welfare is bad unless i need it regards
nathan
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precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 09:53 AM
Well lets see,

If your brother has a working career life of 40 years and continues to make 100 K a year between the Fed & State Income Taxes, Sales Taxes, Property Taxes, Fuel Taxes, Fica Tax, Medicare & Medicaid Taxes, Unempolyment Insurance, Cities Earning Taxes, and I've probably left out quite a number of additional hidden taxes that are passed along in the products we buy, your brother like most of us here is paying between 40 and 50% of our wages in some form of taxation.

So in other words your brother is going to pay in accumulated taxes over his life something like:

40 Years x $100,000 x 40 % = $1,600,000 Million dollars in Taxes.

I think he has every right to complain and vote however he likes.

Maybe you should get a second job so you too can do your share.

Furthermore, you chose your life and profession quit complaining.


who says i'm complaining. i make as much as him a-hole. we just have different perspectives. anyone can vote how they want. i'm just curious about how people arrive to their side of the aisle.
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subroc
01-16-2010, 09:54 AM
I rest my case...

precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 09:54 AM
and just for the record--a simple question sure does get eveyone ruffled. assumptions and attacks.

back to rush quoting, obama hating posts to feel warm and fuzzy regards
nathan
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precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 09:55 AM
I rest my case...
are you an attorney?
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subroc
01-16-2010, 10:00 AM
your interpretation of ruffled is silly I don't see anyone getting ruffled except you. Most gave in depth answers.

My case was you were just trolling to play the hypocrite card. And you were.

Sundown49 aka Otey B
01-16-2010, 10:12 AM
I ran my own business until I had to retire due to heart surgery. I provided my employees with a good salary, and I think good benefits. (health insurance and sick time and vacation time). I did not extend the same benefits to myself. To keep my business growing I reinvested most of my profit back into my business. I paid my share of taxes. I never got one red cent from anyone but my own work and ingenuity. When I had my heart surgery I got a Dr. & Hospital bill that totaled $641,000. I paid it. Not the government or anyone else..ME. That took most of my retirement that I had saved for when I retired. NOW I draw my Social Security that I paid into for my ENTIRE working life when it was in effect. I do not feel that the government is giving me ANYTHING. I paid for it in advance. The thing that interests me most is one thing.."THE BOTTOM LINE"> This bunch of CROOKS that we have running our country want to give my money to people that have not contributed one thing but are just takers. It does not matter what party they belong to they are still crooks. I don't want anyone to tell me what I have to do or not do. I can very well make that decision MYSELF> One thing I learned was I can't spend more that I made..how can our Govt think they can? Off the soap box.

Hoosier
01-16-2010, 10:26 AM
Well it should be easy for you to play the hypocrite card on me. I think this is what you are after. My father left my mother before I was born, and she never remarried. He moved across the state line, and never paid a dime in child support. Mom was twenty one and had no job skills. She received welfare and food stamps for the next 17 1/2 years. The ironic thing is she managed to get a job just before I turned 18, and has had that job ever since.

Now as for me. I started stocking sheetrock at 16 for my uncle, and have supported myself ever since. As an adult, making decisions for myself I have never applied for nor received a dime from the government, and would be ashamed of myself if I did. My daughter is in private school. When my wife went to collage I paid for that out of pocket. I don't hold myself responsible for any of the decisions my parents made.

DSemple
01-16-2010, 10:34 AM
Well, precisionlabradors really doesn't want to know that. she is just waiting untill she has enough information to throw the hypocrite tag around.

Sorry precisionlabradors I thought you were a guy. Forget I said the part about getting a second job and complaining too much. It's great that your helping the community and contributing. Thanks.

JDogger
01-16-2010, 10:42 AM
your interpretation of ruffled is silly I don't see anyone getting ruffled except you. Most gave in depth answers.

My case was you were just trolling to play the hypocrite card. And you were.


Not a hard card to play all things considered. Take a look at this picture of a tea party.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/JDoggger/untitled.jpg

Fully half of the people in that pic look eligible for SS...and I have to wonder if the woman in the w/c is receiving SSI.

NO Public Option
NO Single Payer
No Socialism

OK...let's take away Medicare and Medicaid...and just drop Social Security benefits as well. Immediately, no recourse, unheralded...just stop it all...and if they can't pay for their own health-care, then they should simply die...that is the option they leave others.

Yes Virginia, hypocrites do exist. :rolleyes:

JD

subroc
01-16-2010, 10:57 AM
JD, should our nation use a significant part of its treasury to provide health care for all, not the opportunity to purchase health care but the service itself? If/when our nation reaches the end of its resource stream needed to support such an endeavor, what action (cut programs, raise taxes, let the elderly die, cut other services, minimize coverage etc.) should we, as a nation, take to support the cost?

JDogger
01-16-2010, 11:26 AM
JD, should our nation use a significant part of its treasury to provide health care for all, not the opportunity to purchase health care but the service itself? If/when our nation reaches the end of its resource stream needed to support such an endeavor, what action (cut programs, raise taxes, let the elderly die, cut other services, minimize coverage etc.) should we, as a nation, take to support the cost?

Getting out of the war business would be a good start.

dnf777
01-16-2010, 11:50 AM
When my wife went to collage I paid for that out of pocket. I don't hold myself responsible for any of the decisions my parents made.

I hope it wasn't a state-funded college, or a private college that receives gov't subsidies or grants to offset operational costs! The average cost of private college tuition per annum is about twice the average individual income. Public schools are still affordable, but tuition is like healthcare costs, far exceeding the CPI.

Just curious what your thoughts are on SS? Many folks, like Sundown mentioned, paid in all their lives. Is that ok to receive SS benefits? Or do you consider that free-loading? What if you're catastrophically injured by an uninsured driver, and have exhausted all your medical coverage, and still have bills to pay and no way to earn a living? What should happen to you?

road kill
01-16-2010, 11:50 AM
Getting out of the war business would be a good start.
So you are against trooping up Afgahnistan??




rk

JDogger
01-16-2010, 12:01 PM
So you are against trooping up Afgahnistan??




rk

That's not the topic of this thread. My statement was in reply to a question about funding HC.

subroc
01-16-2010, 12:34 PM
...What if you're catastrophically injured by an uninsured driver, and have exhausted all your medical coverage, and still have bills to pay and no way to earn a living? What should happen to you?


The government should pay. Every young man and woman starting out their life must be required to take care of this person for some period of time. If he loses his house that young person should be required to suspend his/her life until this perfect stranger is up on his feet. If this young person cannot afford to do this a penalty will be assessed on the young person in the form of significant taxes. The government will provide housing for mister catastrophically injured. A vehicle that is built with physically challenged controls will be provided. All meals for the rest of this person’s life will now be provided without any controls needed to determine if this person spends his/her money wisely. Actually, waste will be encouraged by providing far more than the person needs or can use.

paul young
01-16-2010, 12:56 PM
love the sarcasm, Joe.

but what if Mr. catastrophically injured is actually Joe Miano? and the injuries are severe enough that the cost to save your life and rehabilitate you to point that you can sort of take care of yourself exceeds your savings. same sarcastic answer?

i have never seen a person in a wheel chair or on a ventilator or a quadripalegic and thought to myself "wow, what a LUCKY person! they never have to work or pay taxes again". or, in the context of your example, "dam freeloader! and I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!"

and let's not forget where we (you and i) get our paycheck, ok?-Paul

subroc
01-16-2010, 01:10 PM
Paul, do the people of the United States, in the form of the United States government, have the money to pay for this?

Typical lefty, present a picture that any answer shows insensitivity.

Does the nation have the money?

BTW, I know where I work.

BonMallari
01-16-2010, 02:22 PM
I had access to the PX or the Base Exchange along with the commissary at any military base in the country, till I was 18..I also got a salute (they were actually saluting the sticker on the car) I also get the privelege of being buried next to my dad at Fort Sam Houston National Cemetary since my dad was a Silver Star recipient

does that count....

also was a California State Scholarship winner out of High School, but I earned that based on grades and financial need

dnf777
01-16-2010, 02:46 PM
The government should pay. Every young man and woman starting out their life must be required to take care of this person for some period of time. If he loses his house that young person should be required to suspend his/her life until this perfect stranger is up on his feet. If this young person cannot afford to do this a penalty will be assessed on the young person in the form of significant taxes. The government will provide housing for mister catastrophically injured. A vehicle that is built with physically challenged controls will be provided. All meals for the rest of this personís life will now be provided without any controls needed to determine if this person spends his/her money wisely. Actually, waste will be encouraged by providing far more than the person needs or can use.

Was the sarcasm really necessary? Or do you just enjoy it?
I thought that was a legitimate question.

The reason I asked, was a nurse I know had this exact scenario happen to her. I don't mind my taxes going to help her subsist. And no, she doesn't consider herself lucky. She'd rather be working.

dnf777
01-16-2010, 02:49 PM
Paul, do the people of the United States, in the form of the United States government, have the money to pay for this?

Typical lefty, present a picture that any answer shows insensitivity.

Does the nation have the money?

BTW, I know where I work.

Do we have money for two wars? Tax cuts for corporations and the wealthiest Americans who were doing just fine prior to Bush. Believe me, I enjoy a little extra jingle, but not at the price of being a debtor nation, and not being able to pay our bills. And like I said above, that question wasn't framed to trap insensitivity. It really is happening. From what I hear, not many "compassionate conservatives" need help appearing insensitive. Whew!

subroc
01-16-2010, 04:41 PM
Dave, it is a legitimate question, and I posed a legitimate yet sarcastic answer. The point is the same. The cost of our government taking over healthcare will be crippling. When framing this debate it is nice and neat to paint the boogie man as the big corporations but the one that always pays is the working stiff through higher taxes. If you think the legislation that they are planning with all the backroom deals that were done and all the votes that were bought then you and I have a different idea of how government should be run.

Hoosier
01-16-2010, 05:14 PM
I hope it wasn't a state-funded college, or a private college that receives gov't subsidies or grants to offset operational costs! The average cost of private college tuition per annum is about twice the average individual income. Public schools are still affordable, but tuition is like healthcare costs, far exceeding the CPI.

Just curious what your thoughts are on SS? Many folks, like Sundown mentioned, paid in all their lives. Is that ok to receive SS benefits? Or do you consider that free-loading? What if you're catastrophically injured by an uninsured driver, and have exhausted all your medical coverage, and still have bills to pay and no way to earn a living? What should happen to you?

I think you are taking this discussion out of the context the OP intended. If you frame it the way you are trying to, anyone who tries to improve themselves is a leech.

I have no idea how you can throw SS into this. You have the government take 15% of your income, under the pretense of giving you a monthly benefit once you retire, then you collect on that investment. How can that even be brought into this discussion. Other then it being a forced bad investment, I don't see the relevance.

dnf777
01-16-2010, 05:32 PM
Dave, it is a legitimate question, and I posed a legitimate yet sarcastic answer. The point is the same. The cost of our government taking over healthcare will be crippling. When framing this debate it is nice and neat to paint the boogie man as the big corporations but the one that always pays is the working stiff through higher taxes. If you think the legislation that they are planning with all the backroom deals that were done and all the votes that were bought then you and I have a different idea of how government should be run.

I would think that after all the defending of Dick Cheney's locked-door energy meetings with oil execs, nobody on this list would have any problem with Obama going behind locked doors with health insurance and pharm execs??:rolleyes: Isn't what's ok for the Dick, ok for the Barak?

Hoosier
01-16-2010, 05:39 PM
I would think that after all the defending of Dick Cheney's locked-door energy meetings with oil execs, nobody on this list would have any problem with Obama going behind locked doors with health insurance and pharm execs??:rolleyes: Isn't what's ok for the Dick, ok for the Barak?

Could you post a link to people defending Cheney making backroom deals with oil companies.

dnf777
01-16-2010, 05:40 PM
If you frame it the way you are trying to, anyone who tries to improve themselves is a leech.



Quite the contrary! That is what I've been told here before, and I argued against that notion. Maybe you missed the irony. I've been called a leech, and that I "owe everyone big-time" because my then young bride dared to accept WIC funds when we were in school!

I have to roll my eyes when I'm chastised by someone who claims never to have accepted a penny of help, ever in their lives. We've all worked hard to get where we're at. Some more than others, but we don't need to go there. I'm thankful everyday that I was born in our great country, where if you're willing to work hard, you most likely will succeed. And where we can afford as a society to lend a hand to help people that have fallen on hard times, whether through their own devices, or others. Do many abuse this privelage of our affluence? Of course. I wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater though.

Hoosier
01-16-2010, 05:49 PM
Quite the contrary! That is what I've been told here before, and I argued against that notion. Maybe you missed the irony. I've been called a leech, and that I "owe everyone big-time" because my then young bride dared to accept WIC funds when we were in school!

I have to roll my eyes when I'm chastised by someone who claims never to have accepted a penny of help, ever in their lives. We've all worked hard to get where we're at. Some more than others, but we don't need to go there. I'm thankful everyday that I was born in our great country, where if you're willing to work hard, you most likely will succeed. And where we can afford as a society to lend a hand to help people that have fallen on hard times, whether through their own devices, or others. Do many abuse this privelage of our affluence? Of course. I wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater though.

OK could you post a link of me chastising you for getting WIC.

For the record I believe I would have been better off as a kid had my mother not been able to collect welfare in the form it was given.

Marvin S
01-16-2010, 05:56 PM
and just for the record--a simple question sure does get eveyone ruffled. assumptions and attacks.


I have to say the question was SIMPLE! :)


yeah, i was thinkin..we all enjoy the roads, infrastructure, clean water and air, food that won't kill us.

This comment proves you don't have a clue as to what you asked.


how many of us have received services. if you never have, state that too. just curious with all the conservatives on here. this thread is motivated by my brother...he is an oil exploration geologist. didn't work all through school, had 2 kids on the govt dime, came out of school hired on at 100k+, turned uber republican, and now hates all services and speaks out vehemently against welfare.

If you have a prob with your bro, you need to deal with it. Sounds to me as if you are cancelling each other.


i forgot to add, my salary is paid by the govt. mental health and addictions counselor.

& for that you have accomplished ???????


assist - to help....... which in my mind means that you are receiving the aid w/out the requirement of paying back what has been 'given' you.....

under that definition I have never received assistance from the gov't as an adult. As a child, my mother was on food stamps for a short time (less than 6 months).

Juli


I will take advantage of every service that I am legally authorized by law to take advantage of if and when needed.

That should pretty much cover it.

Strikes me that Juli & Subroc get it, is it so hard? but JD does not.


Not a hard card to play all things considered. Take a look at this picture of a tea party.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/JDoggger/untitled.jpg

Fully half of the people in that pic look eligible for SS...and I have to wonder if the woman in the w/c is receiving SSI.

NO Public Option
NO Single Payer
No Socialism

OK...let's take away Medicare and Medicaid...and just drop Social Security benefits as well. Immediately, no recourse, unheralded...just stop it all...and if they can't pay for their own health-care, then they should simply die...that is the option they leave others.

Yes Virginia, hypocrites do exist. :rolleyes:

JD

You mention programs where citizens do not have the option of non participation to make your point, whatever that is. :rolleyes: I would have a discussion with you about those programs but believe I would come away with little payoff for the effort.


I hope it wasn't a state-funded college, or a private college that receives gov't subsidies or grants to offset operational costs!

You would be hard pressed to find many that do not accept in some way or another - Hillsdale comes to mind.

precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 06:03 PM
whew-just got done repairing and putting away decoys for the year. took 5 hours.

anyway, only a few people have answered the original question. subroc not being one.

it is interesting to hear people's stories...maybe that is the counselor in me. and that is what i like about dog events...the dogs and the competition, but everyone has a story.

the intention of this thread was not to try to bait anybody into anything in order to hurry and say "hahahahaha hypocrite". if you feel like a hypocrite maybe you are. i think my brother is.

here is the scenario.... middle class family, white anglo-saxon protestant. not upper eschelon by any means, but not down and out. college was the goal as instilled by our parents and there really were never any barriers to stop us from going. so he went. his interest was geology...he had no real goal for a career. he accepted a pell grant every semester of his undergrad...i did too. he married at 22 and began having kids at 23. he did not work, but golfed twice per week, bought a new car and 2 trucks, and lived a non-meager lifestyle. medicaid flipped the bill for his kids and wife and they subsisted on food stamps and wic for at least 5 years. i'm not sure because actually the deliberate access to welfare and no effort to work disgusted me. but i do know it was at least 5 years.

fast forward 10 years. he is 8 years post graduate school. making good money. started listening to rush right after his bachelors degree. anyway, he has a good job and is now pissed that so much of it goes to taxes to pay for the "bull s*@t" programs that he once utilized. he just knows that it is wrong to utilize them and is very conservative in his political views. everything is "unfair" and he really buys into atlas shrugged where he feels that proponents of welfare are jealous of his accomplishments and he shouldn't have to pay for them.

i understand that his taxes at his wage will pay back what he utlized in family planning. my problem is, how can he honestly say, then that those programs shouldn't exist. if they hadn't and he knocked up his wife, he would not be where he is now. he would not be making what he is now. therefore, he wouldn't be taxed what he is now.

when i ask him about it, he gets mad. i really just want to know how people who take the handout at some point feel they have any right to criticize the programs when paying in.

having been a recipient of pells and my salary being paid by the govt definately affecty my political views. i think the programs should exist. i'm glad my brother got to utilize them and they helped him get to a point in life where he is pretty successful. that is how the program is supposed to work. i just think it selfish and hypocritical to utilize welfare, then speak against it. its a but for type of thing.
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precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 06:05 PM
just posted right after lord marvin...i have tried to take it up with my brother. this is a forum where we can discuss stuff. a lot of you think similarly to him. i don't get it. asking for an explanation.
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precisionlabradors
01-16-2010, 06:06 PM
I ran my own business until I had to retire due to heart surgery. I provided my employees with a good salary, and I think good benefits. (health insurance and sick time and vacation time). I did not extend the same benefits to myself. To keep my business growing I reinvested most of my profit back into my business. I paid my share of taxes. I never got one red cent from anyone but my own work and ingenuity. When I had my heart surgery I got a Dr. & Hospital bill that totaled $641,000. I paid it. Not the government or anyone else..ME. That took most of my retirement that I had saved for when I retired. NOW I draw my Social Security that I paid into for my ENTIRE working life when it was in effect. I do not feel that the government is giving me ANYTHING. I paid for it in advance. The thing that interests me most is one thing.."THE BOTTOM LINE"> This bunch of CROOKS that we have running our country want to give my money to people that have not contributed one thing but are just takers. It does not matter what party they belong to they are still crooks. I don't want anyone to tell me what I have to do or not do. I can very well make that decision MYSELF> One thing I learned was I can't spend more that I made..how can our Govt think they can? Off the soap box.

that's quite the story. i'll gladly contribute through taxes for people like you. glad you made it through. you helped the economy and others by providing jobs and deserve to be taken care of now. thanks.
________
Medical cannabis (http://medicalmarijuana.us/)

Sundown49 aka Otey B
01-16-2010, 06:24 PM
Percision Thank you.

dnf777
01-16-2010, 06:30 PM
OK could you post a link of me chastising you for getting WIC.



Not you, Hoosier.

edit: after re-reading my post, I see how you thought I was talking about you. It was most certainly NOT you, and frankly, I forget those things, except in the context of the current discussion, so I'm not trying to rekindle an old scrap.

I can understand your comment about your mother....but it sounds like you've taken lessons from those times and applied them constructively in your life.

YardleyLabs
01-16-2010, 06:52 PM
OK could you post a link of me chastising you for getting WIC.

For the record I believe I would have been better off as a kid had my mother not been able to collect welfare in the form it was given.
I definitely remember the lambasting Dave took when he admitted the receipt of WIC, and do not remember your being part of it.

I also agree that welfare, as it evolved in the 60's and 70's created a culture of dependency. People literally organized their lives around what was needed to receive and maintain welfare payments. Children timed their move from the parent's home to their own home not based on finding a job, but based on what they needed to do to qualify for welfare. It even went to the level that thieves timed when they would break into mailboxes and when they would commit muggings around the schedule for delivery of welfare checks.

As I read threads where complaints are made about the folly of allowing people to buy whatever types of food they want with food stamps or to give them freedom in what happens with their welfare checks, I also remember that it used to be very different. Welfare payments used to be predicated on family budgets. Rent amounts were paid directly to landlords. Recipients were told what types of furniture they were permitted to buy and have. Case workers were sent to homes to inspect living conditions, see if prohibited items were in evidence, see if there were new purchases that might evidence an unreported source of income, and see if unauthorized people were living in the household. Under the rules in existence, the "tax rate" on gifts and earned income was 100%. If a friend gave you a toaster, you were required to report it as income. If you got a catering job for a day, you had to report the income. Your welfare check was reduced by an amount equal to the total income you received. A culture of dependency was fostered not just by the cash payments, but by all the associated controls put into place.

What few ever added up was that the controls themselves cost more than was ever lost through abuse. I was looking at the numbers at one point in NYC in the early 70's. 12% of the city's population was receiving aid. There were approximately 40,000 case workers on payroll performing home visits and attempting to enforce the rules. Their salaries and benefits added up to more than one fourth of all benefits paid. The impact went further. Unemployed fathers were forced to leave their families so their children would qualify for welfare. If they actually tried to contribute to support, the benefit check was reduced by 100% of their contribution and terminated altogether if the social worker believed the man spent time in the residence. If you worked, you lied about it. If you told the truth you would still incur work related expenses, but the income was taken away.

A lot has changed since then for the better. However, there remains a legitimate place for welfare benefits. In some cases, the people receiving benefits will be on welfare for their entire lives as a result of disabilities. My next door neighbor's child has Down's Syndrome and is one of them. I don't want to be part of a society that leaves her on her own to sink. Other people will need benefits for a period of time to work through problems and become independent again. I believe we should be meeting these needs but that we also need to be careful to avoid supporting a culture of dependency. That culture victimizes the recipients even more than the taxpayer. Unfortunately, there are no sound bites that create balance, only ones that prove abuse.

Matt McKenzie
01-16-2010, 11:34 PM
I definitely remember the lambasting Dave took when he admitted the receipt of WIC, and do not remember your being part of it.

I also agree that welfare, as it evolved in the 60's and 70's created a culture of dependency. People literally organized their lives around what was needed to receive and maintain welfare payments. Children timed their move from the parent's home to their own home not based on finding a job, but based on what they needed to do to qualify for welfare. It even went to the level that thieves timed when they would break into mailboxes and when they would commit muggings around the schedule for delivery of welfare checks.

As I read threads where complaints are made about the folly of allowing people to buy whatever types of food they want with food stamps or to give them freedom in what happens with their welfare checks, I also remember that it used to be very different. Welfare payments used to be predicated on family budgets. Rent amounts were paid directly to landlords. Recipients were told what types of furniture they were permitted to buy and have. Case workers were sent to homes to inspect living conditions, see if prohibited items were in evidence, see if there were new purchases that might evidence an unreported source of income, and see if unauthorized people were living in the household. Under the rules in existence, the "tax rate" on gifts and earned income was 100%. If a friend gave you a toaster, you were required to report it as income. If you got a catering job for a day, you had to report the income. Your welfare check was reduced by an amount equal to the total income you received. A culture of dependency was fostered not just by the cash payments, but by all the associated controls put into place.

What few ever added up was that the controls themselves cost more than was ever lost through abuse. I was looking at the numbers at one point in NYC in the early 70's. 12% of the city's population was receiving aid. There were approximately 40,000 case workers on payroll performing home visits and attempting to enforce the rules. Their salaries and benefits added up to more than one fourth of all benefits paid. The impact went further. Unemployed fathers were forced to leave their families so their children would qualify for welfare. If they actually tried to contribute to support, the benefit check was reduced by 100% of their contribution and terminated altogether if the social worker believed the man spent time in the residence. If you worked, you lied about it. If you told the truth you would still incur work related expenses, but the income was taken away.

A lot has changed since then for the better. However, there remains a legitimate place for welfare benefits. In some cases, the people receiving benefits will be on welfare for their entire lives as a result of disabilities. My next door neighbor's child has Down's Syndrome and is one of them. I don't want to be part of a society that leaves her on her own to sink. Other people will need benefits for a period of time to work through problems and become independent again. I believe we should be meeting these needs but that we also need to be careful to avoid supporting a culture of dependency. That culture victimizes the recipients even more than the taxpayer. Unfortunately, there are no sound bites that create balance, only ones that prove abuse.

I fully agree with your last paragraph. Although abuse of government aid programs infuriates me, I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Case in point, my inlaws: Mother-in-law was a nurse who had a stroke and was wheelchair bound and speechless before she passed away. Father-in-law has worked hard all his life, but health failed after second heart attacke and no retirement benefits. Brother-in-law with Down's Syndrome. Three people who through no fault of their own needed assistance. I have no problem with my taxes going to support people like that. It's the abusers that rub me the wrong way.

And Precision, I agree with you, too. Your brother is a total tool. I have used both Federal and State education benefits. My personal belief is that we get the most bang for the buck from those programs in the form of future tax dollars. I consider myself fiscally conservative, but if I had milked the system to provide for my family off the public dole, I certainly wouldn't preach about welfare abuse now.

Hoosier
01-17-2010, 12:26 AM
I definitely remember the lambasting Dave took when he admitted the receipt of WIC, and do not remember your being part of it.

I also agree that welfare, as it evolved in the 60's and 70's created a culture of dependency. People literally organized their lives around what was needed to receive and maintain welfare payments. Children timed their move from the parent's home to their own home not based on finding a job, but based on what they needed to do to qualify for welfare. It even went to the level that thieves timed when they would break into mailboxes and when they would commit muggings around the schedule for delivery of welfare checks.

As I read threads where complaints are made about the folly of allowing people to buy whatever types of food they want with food stamps or to give them freedom in what happens with their welfare checks, I also remember that it used to be very different. Welfare payments used to be predicated on family budgets. Rent amounts were paid directly to landlords. Recipients were told what types of furniture they were permitted to buy and have. Case workers were sent to homes to inspect living conditions, see if prohibited items were in evidence, see if there were new purchases that might evidence an unreported source of income, and see if unauthorized people were living in the household. Under the rules in existence, the "tax rate" on gifts and earned income was 100%. If a friend gave you a toaster, you were required to report it as income. If you got a catering job for a day, you had to report the income. Your welfare check was reduced by an amount equal to the total income you received. A culture of dependency was fostered not just by the cash payments, but by all the associated controls put into place.

What few ever added up was that the controls themselves cost more than was ever lost through abuse. I was looking at the numbers at one point in NYC in the early 70's. 12% of the city's population was receiving aid. There were approximately 40,000 case workers on payroll performing home visits and attempting to enforce the rules. Their salaries and benefits added up to more than one fourth of all benefits paid. The impact went further. Unemployed fathers were forced to leave their families so their children would qualify for welfare. If they actually tried to contribute to support, the benefit check was reduced by 100% of their contribution and terminated altogether if the social worker believed the man spent time in the residence. If you worked, you lied about it. If you told the truth you would still incur work related expenses, but the income was taken away.

A lot has changed since then for the better. However, there remains a legitimate place for welfare benefits. In some cases, the people receiving benefits will be on welfare for their entire lives as a result of disabilities. My next door neighbor's child has Down's Syndrome and is one of them. I don't want to be part of a society that leaves her on her own to sink. Other people will need benefits for a period of time to work through problems and become independent again. I believe we should be meeting these needs but that we also need to be careful to avoid supporting a culture of dependency. That culture victimizes the recipients even more than the taxpayer. Unfortunately, there are no sound bites that create balance, only ones that prove abuse.

Very good post, and an accurate description of the system. This is also the reason I believe that people promoting an expansion of entitlements are doing more harm then good. In some cases, when used to actually become productive citizens, it can be a good thing, but I believe the vast majority develop a dependence they'll never overcome.

finkomania
01-17-2010, 10:43 AM
Uncle sugar has been depositing a check in my account for the last 21 years...Its nice having a rich uncle..

dnf777
01-17-2010, 01:43 PM
Uncle sugar has been depositing a check in my account for the last 21 years...Its nice having a rich uncle..

Or at least an Uncle with a Visa Platinum, and not afraid to use it! :D

You've earned every penny big Uncle has paid you, thanks for your service!