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Uncle Bill
01-21-2010, 11:35 AM
Not me! Not until this country gets their act together. The PC necessity for airport safety is just more than I want to deal with.

The best suggestion I've heard recently is for the airports to not bother with the full body scanners...just have a blast-proof booth that you step into, and it will detonate any explosive device you may have on your body.

For those that think we shouldn't be 'profiling' in the airports, and other places that need security, here's a test that might interest you. Enjoy. UB


1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:

a.. Superman

b. Jay Leno

c. Harry Potter

d. A Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40




2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by :

a. Olga Corbett

b. Sitting Bull

c. Arnold Schwarzenegger

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40




3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

a. Lost Norwegians

b. Elvis

c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40




4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:

a. John Dillinger

b. The King of Sweden

c. The Boy Scouts

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:

a. A pizza delivery boy

b. Pee Wee Herman

c. Geraldo Rivera

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40




6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was
hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered
and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:

a. The Smurfs

b. Davey Jones

c. The Little Mermaid

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens,
and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:

a. Captain Kidd

b. Charles Lindberg

c. Mother Teresa

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

a. Scooby Doo

b. The Tooth Fairy

c. The Sundance Kid

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the
first time by:

a. Richard Simmons

b. Grandma Moses

c. Michael Jordan

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:

a. Mr. Rogers

b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from
Wild Bill's women problems

c. The World Wrestling Federation

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two
were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers
and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon
and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:

a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd

b. The Supreme Court of Florida

c. Mr Bean

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in
Afghanistan against:
a. Enron

b. The Lutheran Church

c. The NFL

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde

b. Captain Kangaroo

c. Billy Graham

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



Foot note: Fort Hood Texas......another Muslim 39
years old killed 13 people and wounded 30 some odd others...
Does this fit the profile

NOW OUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF IS TELLING EVERYONE
THAT THE YOUNG MUSLIM THAT ATTEMPTED TO BLOW UP
A NORTHWEST/DELTA JET AS IT APPROACHED DETROIT ON
CHRISTMAS DAY WAS (QUOTE) "AN ISOLATED INCIDENT".

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME OR WHAT!!!
MY FATHER USE TO SAY: "PLEASE DON'T PISS ON MY LEG AND
TELL ME IT'S RAINING."

YardleyLabs
01-21-2010, 01:20 PM
For ten years before his exposure in 2006, who repeatedly emailed sexually charged messages to teen-aged boys in the Congressional page program?

a. A gay activist school teacher?

b. a wishy washy Democrat trying to sell socialism to Americans?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged, white male Republican Congressman named Mark Foley, Chair of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children?


In the early 2000's, what evangelical leader was publicly exposed for his activities in paying male prostitutes and snorting meth?

a. Reverend Wright

b. Some funky Unitarian from Boston?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged, white Republican and leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, Ted Haggert?


In 2007, what public figure was busted for soliciting sex from an undercover agent in an airport bathroom?

a. A prominent black Senator from Illinois known for supporting gay rights?

b. Al Gore?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged white male Republican Senator named Larry Craig, known for opposing gay rights?


In 2007, what public figure was arrested for offering a male undercover cop $20 to be allowed to perform an act of oral sex on him in the bathroom at a Veteran's Memorial Park?

a. Jesse Jackson?

b. Jon Stewart?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged white male Republican named Bob Allen who served as McCain's Florida Campaign Chair and supported banning the right of gays to adopt children?


In 2007, and previously in 1998, invited young men to his home, got them drunk, and then attempted oral sex acts on them while they were asleep.

a. Martha Stewart

b. Oprah Winfrey

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. The white male Chair of the Young Republicans, Glenn Murphy Jr., who also served as Chair for the Clark County Republican Party and as a paid consultant to Republican candidates that he urged to use gay marriage as a wedge issue to gain support?


What Cumberland County (PA) commissioner was arrested in 2008 for illegally videotaping hundreds fo encounters with male prostitutes?

a. Liberal Democratic Governor Ed Rendell?

b. Al Sharpton?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged white male Republican named Bruce Barclay?


All of this proves, of course, that you should never turn your back on a middle aged white male Republican because "sticking it to you" could take on a whole new meaning. :rolleyes::D:p;)

huntinman
01-21-2010, 02:28 PM
In the '60s which of the following drove a car off a bridge, then saved himself while a young lady drowned?

A. Rev. Wright
B. Bill Clinton
C. Jimmy Carter
D. Ted Kennedy

Which president admitted to doing cocaine or heroin?

A. Clinton
B. Carter
C. Johnson
D. Obambi

We could go on all day.

Uncle Bill
01-21-2010, 02:32 PM
I realize how distraught you must be following that Mass clobbering you and your fellow libs received....but rather than come up with a reasonable arguement for why we don't profile at our airports, you choose to make a straw man post. Nyuk,Nyuk,Nyuk

How unique.

FWIW, you might not want to get into a sleezy politician contest...especially if it begins with Presidents.

UB

road kill
01-21-2010, 03:37 PM
For ten years before his exposure in 2006, who repeatedly emailed sexually charged messages to teen-aged boys in the Congressional page program?

a. A gay activist school teacher?

b. a wishy washy Democrat trying to sell socialism to Americans?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged, white male Republican Congressman named Mark Foley, Chair of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children?


In the early 2000's, what evangelical leader was publicly exposed for his activities in paying male prostitutes and snorting meth?

a. Reverend Wright

b. Some funky Unitarian from Boston?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged, white Republican and leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, Ted Haggert?


In 2007, what public figure was busted for soliciting sex from an undercover agent in an airport bathroom?

a. A prominent black Senator from Illinois known for supporting gay rights?

b. Al Gore?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged white male Republican Senator named Larry Craig, known for opposing gay rights?


In 2007, what public figure was arrested for offering a male undercover cop $20 to be allowed to perform an act of oral sex on him in the bathroom at a Veteran's Memorial Park?

a. Jesse Jackson?

b. Jon Stewart?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged white male Republican named Bob Allen who served as McCain's Florida Campaign Chair and supported banning the right of gays to adopt children?


In 2007, and previously in 1998, invited young men to his home, got them drunk, and then attempted oral sex acts on them while they were asleep.

a. Martha Stewart

b. Oprah Winfrey

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. The white male Chair of the Young Republicans, Glenn Murphy Jr., who also served as Chair for the Clark County Republican Party and as a paid consultant to Republican candidates that he urged to use gay marriage as a wedge issue to gain support?


What Cumberland County (PA) commissioner was arrested in 2008 for illegally videotaping hundreds fo encounters with male prostitutes?

a. Liberal Democratic Governor Ed Rendell?

b. Al Sharpton?

c. A male Muslim aged 17-40?

d. A middle aged white male Republican named Bruce Barclay?


All of this proves, of course, that you should never turn your back on a middle aged white male Republican because "sticking it to you" could take on a whole new meaning. :rolleyes::D:p;)
Well, I guess we are in agreement then, we need to profile for certain crimes.

And in regard to terrorism it would be??????:D


rk

huntinman
01-21-2010, 03:44 PM
Yardley seems to really keep track of perverts all over the country. An unusual hobby to say the least.

YardleyLabs
01-21-2010, 04:17 PM
Selective interpretation of data has been used to justify bigotry for ages. I remember the outrage when an advisory was issued concerning the threat of terrorist activity by right wing groups in March 2009. If you can figure out the criteria that you would use to distinguish "terrorist extremists" or even the religion of people by appearance, it would be fine. For now, however, it strikes me as being no more valid than saying that white, right wing males are the best candidates if I want to know who will next blow up a government building, assassinate attendees at a Unitarian church in Knoxville, or execute an abortionist during a church service.

The fact is that I doubt that many of the people working ticket counters and security desks are capable of telling the difference between an Indian and a Pakistani, or between an Arab and an Israeli. What about the difference between a Muslim Turk or Indonesian -- neither of which have been linked to jihadi terrorism -- and Saudis who have. Scared people look for easy answers. Unfortunately, there aren't any. For now, the administration has initiated intensified screening for people from certain countries that are considered problematic. At least that can be done by passport.

huntinman
01-21-2010, 04:24 PM
Selective interpretation of data has been used to justify bigotry for ages. I remember the outrage when an advisory was issued concerning the threat of terrorist activity by right wing groups in March 2009. If you can figure out the criteria that you would use to distinguish "terrorist extremists" or even the religion of people by appearance, it would be fine. For now, however, it strikes me as being no more valid than saying that white, right wing males are the best candidates if I want to know who will next blow up a government building, assassinate attendees at a Unitarian church in Knoxville, or execute an abortionist during a church service.

The fact is that I doubt that many of the people working ticket counters and security desks are capable of telling the difference between an Indian and a Pakistani, or between an Arab and an Israeli. What about the difference between a Muslim Turk or Indonesian -- neither of which have been linked to jihadi terrorism -- and Saudis who have. Scared people look for easy answers. Unfortunately, there aren't any. For now, the administration has initiated intensified screening for people from certain countries that are considered problematic. At least that can be done by passport.

Meanwhile they are helping to kill the airline industry by searching people who are absolutely no risk at all, just for the sake of asinine political correctness.

YardleyLabs
01-21-2010, 04:49 PM
Meanwhile they are helping to kill the airline industry by searching people who are absolutely no risk at all, just for the sake of asinine political correctness.

For many years only men were used as suicide bombers. When selective procedures were developed to focus only on men -- partly because of the cultural difficulties of searching women -- it became increasingly common to use women and children to carry the bombs. Drug smugglers have followed similar patterns, selecting as mules those least likely to be searched.

The reality is that, for all the threats of terrorism, commercial airplanes remain one of the safest ways to travel. The odds of finding yourself on board with a terrorist are still lower than they were during the period of hijackings to Cuba, Africa and the Middle East during the 70's. The smartest way to screen for terrorists is to look for people under stress using trained observers. Unfortunately, that is expensive, so we used inadequately trained and cheaper people instead.

Mechanical screening or profile based screening will increase the appearance of thoroughness but will not necessarily help. To make matters even worse, the most important screenings for preventing attacks similar to the recent one are being performed by airport employees in other countries where we have limited influence.

There is simply no policy that can guarantee to prevent terrorist action. All you can do is create an illusion. Using prejudice as the foundation for pretending to do better is simply an easy way to sugar coat the pablum. It does not succeed in making anyone more secure but does succeed in creating an entire class of people who are treated unfairly and become symbols to help recruit future extremists.

huntinman
01-21-2010, 04:53 PM
For many years only men were used as suicide bombers. When selective procedures were developed to focus only on men -- partly because of the cultural difficulties of searching women -- it became increasingly common to use women and children to carry the bombs. Drug smugglers have followed similar patterns, selecting as mules those least likely to be searched.

The reality is that, for all the threats of terrorism, commercial airplanes remain one of the safest ways to travel. The odds of finding yourself on board with a terrorist are still lower than they were during the period of hijackings to Cuba, Africa and the Middle East during the 70's. The smartest way to screen for terrorists is to look for people under stress using trained observers. Unfortunately, that is expensive, so we used inadequately trained and cheaper people instead.

Mechanical screening or profile based screening will increase the appearance of thoroughness but will not necessarily help. To make matters even worse, the most important screenings for preventing attacks similar to the recent one are being performed by airport employees in other countries where we have limited influence.

There is simply no policy that can guarantee to prevent terrorist action. All you can do is create an illusion. Using prejudice as the foundation for pretending to do better is simply an easy way to sugar coat the pablum. It does not succeed in making anyone more secure but does succeed in creating an entire class of people who are treated unfairly and become symbols to help recruit future extremists.

Give me a break. Do you work in Obama's administration? That whole wimpy argument is what got us in the position we are in. I don't think the Muslim terrorists care about being FAIR.

YardleyLabs
01-21-2010, 04:59 PM
Give me a break. Do you work in Obama's administration? That whole wimpy argument is what got us in the position we are in. I don't think the Muslim terrorists care about being FAIR.
So you are OK with targeting white right wing extremists for counter terrorism activities? We should probably start by preserving all those gun registration forms that are now being destroyed so they can be used to track down the sellers of weapons that end up in the wrong hands.

huntinman
01-21-2010, 06:16 PM
So you are OK with targeting white right wing extremists for counter terrorism activities? We should probably start by preserving all those gun registration forms that are now being destroyed so they can be used to track down the sellers of weapons that end up in the wrong hands.

If someone is breaking the law, they should be stopped. If they are planning to harm someone they should be stopped. How many right wing extremists have you have you seen lately trying to blow up planes or flying planes into buildings? If you want to get the sellers of guns that end up in the wrong hands, you need to start by keeping criminals in jail. And prosecuting the ones who are caught selling stolen guns etc... no need to punish the law abiding gun owners who are minding their own business. Maybe we should arrest car dealers who sell cars to someone who ends falling asleep at the wheel and killing someone.

dnf777
01-21-2010, 08:12 PM
Give me a break. Do you work in Obama's administration? That whole wimpy argument is what got us in the position we are in. I don't think the Muslim terrorists care about being FAIR.

In our small town, 100% of the murders have been committed by middle-aged white males wearing camoflauge, who own hunting rifles.

According to YOUR philosophy, how should we screen and profile people at our airport? Who's civil rights should be discarded in the name of public safety?

road kill
01-21-2010, 08:14 PM
In our small town, 100% of the murders have been committed by middle-aged white males wearing camoflauge, who own hunting rifles.
According to YOUR philosophy, how should we screen and profile people at our airport? Who's civil rights should be discarded in the name of public safety?
Using YOUR own standard, support that accusation with a link or some factual evidence.

I claim you just made that up rendering it a useless false claim that has NO bearing on this issue.....:D


rk

huntinman
01-21-2010, 08:17 PM
In our small town, 100% of the murders have been committed by middle-aged white males wearing camoflauge, who own hunting rifles.

According to YOUR philosophy, how should we screen and profile people at our airport? Who's civil rights should be discarded in the name of public safety?

If your town is that small, everyone probably knows everyone (or are all related). Do you even have an airport?

dnf777
01-21-2010, 08:39 PM
Using YOUR own standard, support that accusation with a link or some factual evidence.

I claim you just made that up rendering it a useless false claim that has NO bearing on this issue.....:D


rk

I wish I had.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/22235614/detail.html

Both you and Huntingman threw up diversions rather than answer the question. And yes, we have an airport served by Continental Express, which requires TSA security.

huntinman
01-21-2010, 08:46 PM
I wish I had.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/22235614/detail.html

Both you and Huntingman threw up diversions rather than answer the question. And yes, we have an airport served by Continental Express, which requires TSA security.

I did not read your article. Did the murderer fly into town in camo and carrying a gun? If so, the security definitely broke down... If not, I would say don't change what they are doing at the airport.

OK, I just read the article. I say aprehend everyone who is shooting people from their window. What does this have to do with airport security?

M&K's Retrievers
01-21-2010, 10:42 PM
Sorry, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, pull you arse over and let me check you out. The rest of you go on.

dnf777
01-22-2010, 05:25 AM
Sorry, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, pull you arse over and let me check you out. The rest of you go on.

I'm not going to passionately argue with you guys on this. I think there needs to be a little understanding and common sense here. After the Ft. Hood shooting, there was some Muslim organization leader who was saying that he is tired of having Muslims given a bad name by the terrorists, and that he was WILLING to submit to extra screening tools, if it would decrease terrorism and show people the Muslims do no want this type of rep. How many Muslims he speaks for, I don't know.

Unless you have the resources and time to screen EVERYONE, you must only screen a sample. The trick is to avoid sampling error, and check in a way that will maximize the efficiency of only partial screening. This means that more brown people will be pulled out of line, which is something that at least one muslim leader said he is willing to do. I was pulled out of a boarding line in my class A army uniform and patted down, and I'm as cracker as you can get, so I understand the frustration.

But it also means we don't ignore all white people, and give free passes. Again, a little common sense and understanding.

Hew
01-22-2010, 06:00 AM
So you are OK with targeting white right wing extremists for counter terrorism activities?
I don't think you really want to compare the scorecard of worldwide muslim terrorists to US rightwing extremists.

Hew
01-22-2010, 06:10 AM
Unless you have the resources and time to screen EVERYONE, you must only screen a sample. The trick is to avoid sampling error, and check in a way that will maximize the efficiency of only partial screening. This means that more brown people will be pulled out of line, which is something that at least one muslim leader said he is willing to do. I was pulled out of a boarding line in my class A army uniform and patted down, and I'm as cracker as you can get, so I understand the frustration.

This isn't a high school statistics problem about determining sample size. That's the poltically correct absudity that causes middle aged, fishbelly-white US Army officers to get pulled out of line for pat downs. I don't think many Americans want to see more "brown people" pulled out of line. They want to see more people pulled out of line who fit the profile of an airplane terrorist. At the moment, those people are young Muslim men; be they Arabic, black, white or polkadotted.

dnf777
01-22-2010, 06:16 AM
As much as it may hurt, why don't we agree to agree on that last one? ;)

Evan
01-22-2010, 06:35 AM
I don't think you really want to compare the scorecard of worldwide muslim terrorists to US rightwing extremists.But Hew, have you noticed how true it continues to be that "Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." (Simon & Garfunkel)

If the objective of this thread were to miss significant points, we would need Olympic judges to keep score. By whom should American citizens feel more threatened:

Sexually deviant individual Republican politicians?
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?How hard is that to focus on? I suppose it's measured by one's devotion to a political agenda or ideology.

I'm flying to Canada to give a seminar the end of March. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for sexually deviant Republicans. They're everywhere, you know.

Evan

YardleyLabs
01-22-2010, 06:47 AM
I don't think you really want to compare the scorecard of worldwide muslim terrorists to US rightwing extremists.
Actually, if we're talking about policies in the US, we are basically talking about domestic terrorism. I we are limiting ourselves to passenger initiated efforts to blow up planes in the US, what is the total number of incidents involved in the last decade relative to the total number of flights? The reality is that almost all screening efforts involve harassing innocent people. The incidence of terrorists in any group is microscopic. Given that, certain things are clear, at least to me:

We are dealing with an intelligent enemy with the resources to plan and execute operations almost anywhere in the world and capable of recruiting volunteer "triggers" of any nationality, gender, or age. While Arab men are the resource most readily available, that is not a serious limit on capability.
Whatever screening methods are used, wannabe terrorists will have ample opportunity to study the methods and test different approaches for circumventing them.
The primary value of incidents results from the level of disruption caused by efforts to prevent success and from the level of fear engendered. A "failure" works as well as a "success".
Profiling based on indeterminate characteristics (color, religion, apparent national origin) will have no significant impact on success both because they are statistically irrelevant as indicators of a propensity to terrorism. However, such activity is bound to result victimization of the targeted groups, creating more propaganda opportunities for terrorist organizations and their supporters.
Behavioral profiling is much more complex, much harder and more expensive to implement. However, it is also more likely to yield results.
Technological approaches for identifying potential weapons offer many opportunities for improvement and corporate profit. They will also continue to generate massive numbers of false positives until we finally reach the stage of shipping luggage separately from people and issuing special, disposable travel outfits to each passenger as an alternative to flying naked. While technological approaches have provided and will continue to provide many real benefits, they will ultimately provide no more of a "guarantee" than we have now. We will increase usage every time there is an incident, regardless of merit, and it is always worth tracking the stock of players in this market.:rolleyes:Whatever is done, those is charge will have ample opportunity to declare victory before the next incident.

However, I suspect that the real pattern of terrorist attacks will migrate more toward the use of IED's in the US and other areas outside of the actual battlefield countries. Real progress seems to have been made in improving the reliability of such devices and dissemination of the technologies appears to have become more common.

YardleyLabs
01-22-2010, 06:49 AM
...
Sexually deviant individual Republican politicians?
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?...

I'm flying to Canada to give a seminar the end of March. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for sexually deviant Republicans. They're everywhere, you know.

Evan
Good idea Evan. I think you are much more likely to encounter a sexually deviant Republican (or Democrat) than you are to encounter a suicide bomber of any persuasion.;-)

dnf777
01-22-2010, 06:56 AM
I'm flying to Canada to give a seminar the end of March. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for sexually deviant Republicans.
Evan

Watch out for the men's room in Minnesota! If that stall's a rockin, don't come a knockin! :shock:

road kill
01-22-2010, 06:57 AM
Good idea Evan. I think you are much more likely to encounter a sexually deviant Republican (or Democrat) than you are to encounter a suicide bomber of any persuasion.;-)
On an airplane???

Swing and a miss..........the topic is airplane security!!


BTW....DNF, nice try, but swing and a miss for you as well, I checked, that was not the only murder in Seneca PA, and there is no comment on "camo."
Me thinks you trumped up the story to back up an assertion that has no relevance to airplane security.



rk

dnf777
01-22-2010, 07:05 AM
On an airplane???

Swing and a miss..........the topic is airplane security!!


BTW....DNF, nice try, but swing and a miss for you as well, I checked, that was not the only murder in SenecaPA, and there is no comment on "camo."
Me thinks you trumped up the story to back up an assertion that has norelevance to airplane security.



rk

The guy was a patient of my wife's. The other murder was a wife and mother-in-law. And BTW, EVERYONE here has camo! The murderer's Marlin was returned to him by a judge who said he could use it only for hunting, after having brandished it at his wife's workplace several years ago, and having it confiscated. This guy had a history of armed violence, substance abuse, and alcoholism. If there is anyone who should have their guns taken away, he was the poster child.

So yes, in Venango county, Pa, your chances of being killed by a beer-drinkin middle-aged white male with a deer rifle are VASTLY greater than being blown up by a muslim terrorist! It's not rocket science. And yes, if a young mulsim showed up carrying a duffle-bag, you can BET he will be scrutinized and questioned, if not by authorities, by a bunch of beer-drinkin, middle-aged white men with deer rifles!

http://www.city-data.com/city/Franklin-Pennsylvania.html

You can see the city-data shows 2 murders as far back as they report. If you want to go back to the days of John Wilkes Boothe and the underground railroad, yes, there have probably been more. Maybe you were looking at the murder rate per 100,000, which is much greater because we don't have 100,000 people here.

Hew
01-22-2010, 07:06 AM
Actually, if we're talking about policies in the US, we are basically talking about domestic terrorism. I we are limiting ourselves to passenger initiated efforts to blow up planes in the US, what is the total number of incidents involved in the last decade relative to the total number of flights? Using that logic nuclear weapons are not a potential problem if we compare the total number of nukes detonated in anger to the number of total nukes. The fact that terrorist events and nuclear explosions don't happen often doesn't negate the consequences of when they do occur. The reality is that almost all screening efforts involve harassing innocent people. The incidence of terrorists in any group is microscopic. Given that, certain things are clear, at least to me:

We are dealing with an intelligent enemy with the resources to plan and execute operations almost anywhere in the world and capable of recruiting volunteer "triggers" of any nationality, gender, or age. While Arab men are the resource most readily available, that is not a serious limit on capability.
Whatever screening methods are used, wannabe terrorists will have ample opportunity to study the methods and test different approaches for circumventing them. That's undeniable. However, there are two common threads...1) No matter their successes and failures, they keep trying to use airliners, and most importantly 2) they're young MUSLIM men. So you're right that they will always be somewhat ahead of us in their methods (box cutters begets shoe bombs begets panty bombs), but the three constants are their age, their penises and their religion.
The primary value of incidents results from the level of disruption caused by efforts to prevent success and from the level of fear engendered. A "failure" works as well as a "success".
Profiling based on indeterminate characteristics (color, religion, apparent national origin) will have no significant impact on success both because they are statistically irrelevant as indicators of a propensity to terrorism. However, such activity is bound to result victimization of the targeted groups, creating more propaganda opportunities for terrorist organizations and their supporters. Yeah, yeah. You said that about Gitmo. We're closing Gitmo and they're still trying to kill us.
Behavioral profiling is much more complex, much harder and more expensive to implement. However, it is also more likely to yield results. So are magic wands and white wizards. We can hardly train competent TSA employees to find a lit stick of dynamite...training them to look for beady eyes and sweaty brows might be a little tough. I posit that it ain't rocket science to look at a passenger's ticket and see Muqtab al-Hussein, see that he's about 22, and say, "Mr. al-Hussein, I apologize for the delay, but would you mind stepping over here for a moment? Thanks."
Technological approaches for identifying potential weapons offer many opportunities for improvement and corporate profit. They will also continue to generate massive numbers of false positives until we finally reach the stage of shipping luggage separately from people and issuing special, disposable travel outfits to each passenger as an alternative to flying naked. While technological approaches have provided and will continue to provide many real benefits, they will ultimately provide no more of a "guarantee" than we have now. We will increase usage every time there is an incident, regardless of merit, and it is always worth tracking the stock of players in this market.:rolleyes: Following the money is never a bad idea.Whatever is done, those is charge will have ample opportunity to declare victory before the next incident.

However, I suspect that the real pattern of terrorist attacks will migrate more toward the use of IED's in the US and other areas outside of the actual battlefield countries. Real progress seems to have been made in improving the reliability of such devices and dissemination of the technologies appears to have become more common.
................

huntinman
01-22-2010, 07:46 AM
Actually, if we're talking about policies in the US, we are basically talking about domestic terrorism. I we are limiting ourselves to passenger initiated efforts to blow up planes in the US, what is the total number of incidents involved in the last decade relative to the total number of flights? The reality is that almost all screening efforts involve harassing innocent people. The incidence of terrorists in any group is microscopic. Given that, certain things are clear, at least to me:

We are dealing with an intelligent enemy with the resources to plan and execute operations almost anywhere in the world and capable of recruiting volunteer "triggers" of any nationality, gender, or age. While Arab men are the resource most readily available, that is not a serious limit on capability.
Whatever screening methods are used, wannabe terrorists will have ample opportunity to study the methods and test different approaches for circumventing them.
The primary value of incidents results from the level of disruption caused by efforts to prevent success and from the level of fear engendered. A "failure" works as well as a "success".
Profiling based on indeterminate characteristics (color, religion, apparent national origin) will have no significant impact on success both because they are statistically irrelevant as indicators of a propensity to terrorism. However, such activity is bound to result victimization of the targeted groups, creating more propaganda opportunities for terrorist organizations and their supporters.
Behavioral profiling is much more complex, much harder and more expensive to implement. However, it is also more likely to yield results.
Technological approaches for identifying potential weapons offer many opportunities for improvement and corporate profit. They will also continue to generate massive numbers of false positives until we finally reach the stage of shipping luggage separately from people and issuing special, disposable travel outfits to each passenger as an alternative to flying naked. While technological approaches have provided and will continue to provide many real benefits, they will ultimately provide no more of a "guarantee" than we have now. We will increase usage every time there is an incident, regardless of merit, and it is always worth tracking the stock of players in this market.:rolleyes:Whatever is done, those is charge will have ample opportunity to declare victory before the next incident.

However, I suspect that the real pattern of terrorist attacks will migrate more toward the use of IED's in the US and other areas outside of the actual battlefield countries. Real progress seems to have been made in improving the reliability of such devices and dissemination of the technologies appears to have become more common.

Sometimes less is more. You say a whole lot, but none of it makes any sense.

Evan
01-22-2010, 08:12 AM
Good idea Evan. I think you are much more likely to encounter a sexually deviant Republican (or Democrat) than you are to encounter a suicide bomber of any persuasion.;-)Another point well missed. If I should encouter a dozen such 'deviants', what have I to fear? You think a plane full of passengers may be endangered because one of those aweful Republicans might ask me for a date? Did you read somewhere about one of those individuals hiding explosives in his shorts?:rolleyes:

"How hard is that to focus on? I suppose it's measured by one's devotion to a political agenda or ideology."

Transparent regards,

Evan

Leddyman
01-22-2010, 10:08 AM
Ooops! double post.

Leddyman
01-22-2010, 10:09 AM
All of this proves, of course, that you should never turn your back on a middle aged white male Republican because "sticking it to you" could take on a whole new meaning. :rolleyes::D:p;)

Jeff, you are more intelligent than this. Which one of your examples killed anybody? Besides, I thought you supported homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle?

The post was about airport security. Please....Really?

Leddyman
01-22-2010, 10:33 AM
The guy was a patient of my wife's. The other murder was a wife and mother-in-law. And BTW, EVERYONE here has camo! The murderer's Marlin was returned to him by a judge who said he could use it only for hunting, after having brandished it at his wife's workplace several years ago, and having it confiscated. This guy had a history of armed violence, substance abuse, and alcoholism. If there is anyone who should have their guns taken away, he was the poster child.

So yes, in Venango county, Pa, your chances of being killed by a beer-drinkin middle-aged white male with a deer rifle are VASTLY greater than being blown up by a muslim terrorist! It's not rocket science. And yes, if a young mulsim showed up carrying a duffle-bag, you can BET he will be scrutinized and questioned, if not by authorities, by a bunch of beer-drinkin, middle-aged white men with deer rifles!

http://www.city-data.com/city/Franklin-Pennsylvania.html

You can see the city-data shows 2 murders as far back as they report. If you want to go back to the days of John Wilkes Boothe and the underground railroad, yes, there have probably been more. Maybe you were looking at the murder rate per 100,000, which is much greater because we don't have 100,000 people here.

Well holy crap there Wilbur, nobody is going to argue that that guy should have had a gun. The system broke down, there are laws on the books that should have taken that guy's guns away. So your real point is Criminals who have brandished weapons and are addicted to illegal drugs shouldn't have guns.

News Flash!!! I agree.

Had he ever been on an AIRPLANE? Should I get cavity searched getting on a plane because that guy lost his cookies and killed somebody?

Notwithstanding Yardley's preoccupation with homosexual politicians who would definitely like to search a cavity or two.

I ain't flyin nowhere anymore, me an John Madden regards,

YardleyLabs
01-22-2010, 10:45 AM
Jeff, you are more intelligent than this. Which one of your examples killed anybody? Besides, I thought you supported homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle?

The post was about airport security. Please....Really?
Actually, I would say that the posts have been about profiling in the absence of any legitimate analysis showing that such a strategy is more likely to be effective than what we are doing now. I suspect that more lives would be saved by requiring all males leaving sports bars on a Sunday afternoon/evening to pass a breathalyzer test before driving than would be saved by strip searching every male with an Arab sounding name prior to boarding an airplane.

Personally, I believe that if you are proposing profiling you should make a valid statistical case and then be equally supportive if that case is then applied in a parallel manner against those with whom you identify. My Republican sex scandal post was an effort to illustrate humorously a stupid conclusion based on selective data. I could just have easily made the case that if you want to screen for people most likely to kill civilians using bombs, you should look for an American soldier stationed in a third world country.

I believe that profiling is currently being sold to the American public because blaming a minority and using incendiary scare tactics is good politics, and a lot easier than actually trying to do something useful.

Uncle Bill
01-22-2010, 11:39 AM
Selective interpretation of data has been used to justify bigotry for ages. I remember the outrage when an advisory was issued concerning the threat of terrorist activity by right wing groups in March 2009. If you can figure out the criteria that you would use to distinguish "terrorist extremists" or even the religion of people by appearance, it would be fine. For now, however, it strikes me as being no more valid than saying that white, right wing males are the best candidates if I want to know who will next blow up a government building, assassinate attendees at a Unitarian church in Knoxville, or execute an abortionist during a church service.

The fact is that I doubt that many of the people working ticket counters and security desks are capable of telling the difference between an Indian and a Pakistani, or between an Arab and an Israeli. What about the difference between a Muslim Turk or Indonesian -- neither of which have been linked to jihadi terrorism -- and Saudis who have. Scared people look for easy answers. Unfortunately, there aren't any. For now, the administration has initiated intensified screening for people from certain countries that are considered problematic. At least that can be done by passport.


You have reached one of the nation's Icons with your pathetic desire to fend for the enemy; ignoring the obvious is such a leftist virtue.

Speaking on your behalf...properly chastising all of us ignoramuses on the right, here's a message from Maxine:

"Recently I received a warning about the use of the politically INcorrect term, "Towel Heads", so please note: We all need to be more sensative in our choice of words. I have been informed that the Islamic terrorists who hate our guts and want to kill us, do not like to be called "Towel Heads", since the item they wear on their heads is not actually a towel, but in fact, a small folded sheet. Therefore, from this point forward, please refer to them as "Little Sheet Heads".

Thank you for your support and compliance on this delicate matter."

After being taken to the woodshed by Maxine, I certainly intend to comply.

UB

Julie R.
01-22-2010, 12:09 PM
I believe that profiling is currently being sold to the American public because blaming a minority and using incendiary scare tactics is good politics, and a lot easier than actually trying to do something useful.

I don't see how you can say profiling and scare tactics are being "sold" to the American public. Who's doing the selling? All I hear is your ilk trashing profiling, even that which correctly identifies a security risk, as not being PC or potentially hurting someone's feelings or the rallying cry of the lefties, "That's RACIST!"

huntinman
01-22-2010, 12:26 PM
The left clings to their civil rights and political correctness (bitter clingers)...until we get attacked in a big way.

Then they scream that our leaders were asleep at the wheel. "Where were you, why didn't you protect us?" WaaaaaaaWaaaaaaa

They want it both ways...

dnf777
01-22-2010, 02:38 PM
Should I get cavity searched getting on a plane because that guy lost his cookies and killed somebody?

There's a whole lot of law-abiding Muslims who have never blown up anyone, or plan to, asking that same question! Careful when you trample on someone else's civil rights, the next time it just might be yours!

Evan
01-22-2010, 03:39 PM
There's a whole lot of law-abiding Muslims who have never blown up anyone, or plan to...Great! They should come through screening with flying colors. However, most acts of terror - expecially over the past ten years, have fit the profile of being Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40. If that should distinctly shift toward tall red headed Irish females, I say we target and profile them. In the meantime, I like both the pattern and success rate of EL AL.

Evan

DL
01-22-2010, 03:46 PM
For what it is worth, on Tuesday coming through immigration in Charlotte, they had a guy submit his fingerprints through the device right at passport control because he couldn't understand english well enough, and they put another guy in a booth to test for explosives and told him they would let him out if he passed. He looked muslim and had odd braces on his feet. I heard the inspector guy say something like "oh, sh**" when they called him out to do the test.

The security I went through in the foreign airport was just going through the motions, and to be sure they were doing some subvert profiling because I didn't seem to concern them. White guys with a southern accent apparently don't fit the profile. It must be hard to fake. It looks to me like people trying to get a paycheck who want to do a good job but have an impossible task and possible poor management. It is the chance someone takes.

The bomber on the plane from Amsterdam to Detroit doesn't necessarily look a radical muslim from his picture to me.

The people who work in the airport have some leeway in what they do. Give some people some leeway and the profiling comes in automatically. They are already doing profiling.

Another reason for not flying would be the swine flu. My flights gave me something.

Hew
01-22-2010, 04:04 PM
I don't see how you can say profiling and scare tactics are being "sold" to the American public. Who's doing the selling? All I hear is your ilk trashing profiling, even that which correctly identifies a security risk, as not being PC or potentially hurting someone's feelings or the rallying cry of the lefties, "That's RACIST!"
Hey, where's the kid? I feel gypped. :D

Hoosier
01-22-2010, 04:37 PM
The guy was a patient of my wife's. The other murder was a wife and mother-in-law. And BTW, EVERYONE here has camo! The murderer's Marlin was returned to him by a judge who said he could use it only for hunting, after having brandished it at his wife's workplace several years ago, and having it confiscated. This guy had a history of armed violence, substance abuse, and alcoholism. If there is anyone who should have their guns taken away, he was the poster child.

So yes, in Venango county, Pa, your chances of being killed by a beer-drinkin middle-aged white male with a deer rifle are VASTLY greater than being blown up by a muslim terrorist! It's not rocket science. And yes, if a young mulsim showed up carrying a duffle-bag, you can BET he will be scrutinized and questioned, if not by authorities, by a bunch of beer-drinkin, middle-aged white men with deer rifles!

http://www.city-data.com/city/Franklin-Pennsylvania.html

You can see the city-data shows 2 murders as far back as they report. If you want to go back to the days of John Wilkes Boothe and the underground railroad, yes, there have probably been more. Maybe you were looking at the murder rate per 100,000, which is much greater because we don't have 100,000 people here.

So if I an on an airplane, I have a better chance of getting shot by a middle-aged white guy with a deer rifle, then a Muslim extremist? We are talking about airport security aren't we?

dnf777
01-22-2010, 04:46 PM
Just relative risks, and effective screening strategies in general. I think its obvious that you try to statistically increase your efficacy of any screening process, if that includes racial profiling, then it needs to be tolerated. Indiscriminate prejudicial tactics are not what we as a country are about.

YardleyLabs
01-22-2010, 06:26 PM
There seems to be an almost universal assumption here that hijackings are committed by young, male Muslim religious radicals seeking to attack the west. I decided to test the hypothesis.

In the last decade, as far as I can determine, there have been 12 significant incidents (counting the 9-11 hijackings as one incident) involving 14 planes. In addition to 9-11, only two of those incidents have involved Muslim extremists attempting to destroy the plane. The rest have ranged from a mentally ill Jamaican youth wanting to fly to Cuba, to a a bible carrying Bolivian religious fanatic wanting to meet with the President of Mexico, to a number of people seeking political asylum in western countries, to a disgruntled former airline employee, to people seeking money. A number of these incidents resulted in crashing the planes and killing all or most of those on board. The only such events where the planes were crashed that involved Muslim jihadists were those of 9-11.

I've listed the incidents I was able to identify below if you are interested in checking for yourselves.

2000 Phillipine sky-diver Reginald Chua hijacked plane with grenade and pistol to steal money. Killed after parachuting from plane. Philippine Airlines Flight 812
2000, 11 November: an Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Makhachkala to Moscow was hijacked by a man demanding it be diverted to Israel. The plane landed at Israeli military base where hijacker surrendered. None of 59 people onboard were injured
2001, 15 March: another Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Istanbul to Moscow was hijacked by a three Chechen terrorists demanding it be diverted to Saudi Arabia.
2001: September 11 attacks, eastern USA: 19 terrorists hijacked American Airlines flights 11 and 77, and United Airlines flights 93 and 175
Richard Colvin Reid, a British citizen, attempted to ignite a shoe bomb on AA Flight 63, Paris-Miami. Member of al Qaeda
2006: Turkish Airlines Flight 1476, flying from Tirana to Istanbul, was hijacked in Greek airspace by Hakan Ekinci who wanted to go to Rome to meet the Pope and request political asylum.. The aircraft, with 107 passengers and six crew on board,landed safely at Brindisi, Italy
2007: an Air West Boeing 737 was hijacked over Sudan, but landed safely at N'Djamena, Chad. In this case the hijecker was reportedly a member of the Sudanese rebel movement and wanted to get to England.
2007: an Air Mauritanie Boeing 737 flying from Nouakchott to Las Palmas with 87 passengers on board was hijacked by a man who wanted to fly to Paris, but the plane landed in an air base near Las Palmas and the hijacker, a Moroccan, was arrested. He was seeking political asylum in France.
2008: a Sun Air Boeing 737 flying from Nyala, Darfur, in Western Sudan to the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, was hijacked shortly after takeoff. The hijackers demanded to be taken to France where they reputedly wanted to gain asylum.
2009 Bolivian bible carrying religious fanatic hijacks AeroMexico flight with 103 passengers out of Cancun
2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576, a Boeing 737-800 flying from Cancún to Mexico City was hijacked by José Marc Flores Pereira, a Bolivian citizen claiming he had a bomb and demanding to speak to Mexican president Felipe Calderón.
2009 NWA Flt 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit disrupted when Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab attempted to detonate an underwear bomb.

Hoosier
01-22-2010, 07:20 PM
There seems to be an almost universal assumption here that hijackings are committed by young, male Muslim religious radicals seeking to attack the west. I decided to test the hypothesis.

In the last decade, as far as I can determine, there have been 12 significant incidents (counting the 9-11 hijackings as one incident) involving 14 planes. In addition to 9-11, only two of those incidents have involved Muslim extremists attempting to destroy the plane. The rest have ranged from a mentally ill Jamaican youth wanting to fly to Cuba, to a a bible carrying Bolivian religious fanatic wanting to meet with the President of Mexico, to a number of people seeking political asylum in western countries, to a disgruntled former airline employee, to people seeking money. A number of these incidents resulted in crashing the planes and killing all or most of those on board. The only such events where the planes were crashed that involved Muslim jihadists were those of 9-11.

I've listed the incidents I was able to identify below if you are interested in checking for yourselves.

2000 Phillipine sky-diver Reginald Chua hijacked plane with grenade and pistol to steal money. Killed after parachuting from plane. Philippine Airlines Flight 812
2000, 11 November: an Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Makhachkala to Moscow was hijacked by a man demanding it be diverted to Israel. The plane landed at Israeli military base where hijacker surrendered. None of 59 people onboard were injured
2001, 15 March: another Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Istanbul to Moscow was hijacked by a three Chechen terrorists demanding it be diverted to Saudi Arabia.
2001: September 11 attacks, eastern USA: 19 terrorists hijacked American Airlines flights 11 and 77, and United Airlines flights 93 and 175
Richard Colvin Reid, a British citizen, attempted to ignite a shoe bomb on AA Flight 63, Paris-Miami. Member of al Qaeda
2006: Turkish Airlines Flight 1476, flying from Tirana to Istanbul, was hijacked in Greek airspace by Hakan Ekinci who wanted to go to Rome to meet the Pope and request political asylum.. The aircraft, with 107 passengers and six crew on board,landed safely at Brindisi, Italy
2007: an Air West Boeing 737 was hijacked over Sudan, but landed safely at N'Djamena, Chad. In this case the hijecker was reportedly a member of the Sudanese rebel movement and wanted to get to England.
2007: an Air Mauritanie Boeing 737 flying from Nouakchott to Las Palmas with 87 passengers on board was hijacked by a man who wanted to fly to Paris, but the plane landed in an air base near Las Palmas and the hijacker, a Moroccan, was arrested. He was seeking political asylum in France.
2008: a Sun Air Boeing 737 flying from Nyala, Darfur, in Western Sudan to the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, was hijacked shortly after takeoff. The hijackers demanded to be taken to France where they reputedly wanted to gain asylum.
2009 Bolivian bible carrying religious fanatic hijacks AeroMexico flight with 103 passengers out of Cancun
2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576, a Boeing 737-800 flying from Cancún to Mexico City was hijacked by José Marc Flores Pereira, a Bolivian citizen claiming he had a bomb and demanding to speak to Mexican president Felipe Calderón.
2009 NWA Flt 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit disrupted when Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab attempted to detonate an underwear bomb.

Jeff, do you have stats on how many people each of these hijackers killed, and the religious affiliation of the ones that killed people?

dback
01-22-2010, 07:28 PM
There seems to be an almost universal assumption here that hijackings are committed by young, male Muslim religious radicals seeking to attack the west. I decided to test the hypothesis.

In the last decade, as far as I can determine, there have been 12 significant incidents (counting the 9-11 hijackings as one incident) involving 14 planes. In addition to 9-11, only two of those incidents have involved Muslim extremists attempting to destroy the plane. The rest have ranged from a mentally ill Jamaican youth wanting to fly to Cuba, to a a bible carrying Bolivian religious fanatic wanting to meet with the President of Mexico, to a number of people seeking political asylum in western countries, to a disgruntled former airline employee, to people seeking money. A number of these incidents resulted in crashing the planes and killing all or most of those on board. The only such events where the planes were crashed that involved Muslim jihadists were those of 9-11.

I've listed the incidents I was able to identify below if you are interested in checking for yourselves.

2000 Phillipine sky-diver Reginald Chua hijacked plane with grenade and pistol to steal money. Killed after parachuting from plane. Philippine Airlines Flight 812
2000, 11 November: an Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Makhachkala to Moscow was hijacked by a man demanding it be diverted to Israel. The plane landed at Israeli military base where hijacker surrendered. None of 59 people onboard were injured
2001, 15 March: another Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Istanbul to Moscow was hijacked by a three Chechen terrorists demanding it be diverted to Saudi Arabia.
2001: September 11 attacks, eastern USA: 19 terrorists hijacked American Airlines flights 11 and 77, and United Airlines flights 93 and 175
Richard Colvin Reid, a British citizen, attempted to ignite a shoe bomb on AA Flight 63, Paris-Miami. Member of al Qaeda
2006: Turkish Airlines Flight 1476, flying from Tirana to Istanbul, was hijacked in Greek airspace by Hakan Ekinci who wanted to go to Rome to meet the Pope and request political asylum.. The aircraft, with 107 passengers and six crew on board,landed safely at Brindisi, Italy
2007: an Air West Boeing 737 was hijacked over Sudan, but landed safely at N'Djamena, Chad. In this case the hijecker was reportedly a member of the Sudanese rebel movement and wanted to get to England.
2007: an Air Mauritanie Boeing 737 flying from Nouakchott to Las Palmas with 87 passengers on board was hijacked by a man who wanted to fly to Paris, but the plane landed in an air base near Las Palmas and the hijacker, a Moroccan, was arrested. He was seeking political asylum in France.
2008: a Sun Air Boeing 737 flying from Nyala, Darfur, in Western Sudan to the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, was hijacked shortly after takeoff. The hijackers demanded to be taken to France where they reputedly wanted to gain asylum.
2009 Bolivian bible carrying religious fanatic hijacks AeroMexico flight with 103 passengers out of Cancun
2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576, a Boeing 737-800 flying from Cancún to Mexico City was hijacked by José Marc Flores Pereira, a Bolivian citizen claiming he had a bomb and demanding to speak to Mexican president Felipe Calderón.
2009 NWA Flt 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit disrupted when Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab attempted to detonate an underwear bomb.

Well, I guess you proved everyones point here Jeff. Of the six incidents involving the United States(four aircraft on 9/11, shoe bomber, panty bomber).....100% were 'young Muslim males'. Now if you are Mexico, the Phillipines or who ever else...they might want to 'profile' some other group.

YardleyLabs
01-22-2010, 07:41 PM
Jeff, do you have stats on how many people each of these hijackers killed, and the religious affiliation of the ones that killed people?
Is your point that almost 3000 were killed on 9-11? I actually made a mistake in my post since I was initially including another incident but it fell outside of the decade limit of my sample. Other than 9-11, only one of the these indicidents resulted in deaths of anyone except the hijacker. That was an instance where three passengers were killed by the assault team trying to capture the hijacker. 9-11, as far as I can tell, was the only incident in which terrorists or hijackers killed passengers or anyone other than themselves on a commercial air flight. Obviously, any of these incidents could have resulted is mass casualties. The fact remains that most commercial air acts of terrorism do not involve religious issues.

EDIT: Will anyone admit to being surprised at that result?

Hoosier
01-22-2010, 10:11 PM
Is your point that almost 3000 were killed on 9-11? I actually made a mistake in my post since I was initially including another incident but it fell outside of the decade limit of my sample. Other than 9-11, only one of the these indicidents resulted in deaths of anyone except the hijacker. That was an instance where three passengers were killed by the assault team trying to capture the hijacker. 9-11, as far as I can tell, was the only incident in which terrorists or hijackers killed passengers or anyone other than themselves on a commercial air flight. Obviously, any of these incidents could have resulted is mass casualties. The fact remains that most commercial air acts of terrorism do not involve religious issues.

EDIT: Will anyone admit to being surprised at that result?

Actually I wasn't trying to make a point. I was just wondering if you had any evidence to back up the position of strip searching old ladies, while 17 to 40 year old Muslims skip onto the plane. As far as I can tell, you didn't make a case for that position.

YardleyLabs
01-22-2010, 10:17 PM
Actually I wasn't trying to make a point. I was just wondering if you had any evidence to back up the position of strip searching old ladies, while 17 to 40 year old Muslims skip onto the plane. As far as I can tell, you didn't make a case for that position.
None of the hijackers or terrorists on airplanes in the last ten years has been an old lady. However, the men have ranged from juveniles to middle aged, included Christians, Jews and Muslims, and come in every color and many nationalities. In areas where suicide bombings are more common, the early cases all involved men. As men became the object of greater scrutiny, women and children were recruited. By the way, the case that needs to be made is the case for focusing on Muslim men aged 17-40. The events in my list disprove that profile completely.

Hoosier
01-22-2010, 10:37 PM
None of the hijackers or terrorists on airplanes in the last ten years has been an old lady. However, the men have ranged from juveniles to middle aged, included Christians, Jews and Muslims, and come in every color and many nationalities. In areas where suicide bombings are more common, the early cases all involved men. As men became the object of greater scrutiny, women and children were recruited. By the way, the case that needs to be made is the case for focusing on Muslim men aged 17-40. The events in my list disprove that profile completely.


So we agree then. We don't need to be giving 80 year old white ladies prostrate exams at the airport.

dback
01-22-2010, 10:44 PM
None of the hijackers or terrorists on airplanes in the last ten years has been an old lady. However, the men have ranged from juveniles to middle aged, included Christians, Jews and Muslims, and come in every color and many nationalities. In areas where suicide bombings are more common, the early cases all involved men. As men became the object of greater scrutiny, women and children were recruited. By the way, the case that needs to be made is the case for focusing on Muslim men aged 17-40. The events in my list disprove that profile completely.

Only if you are flying from Cancun to Mexico City or Phillipine Airlines or Vnukovo Airlines etc. If you are flying within the US or from outside the US...to the US....your profile shows we need to focus on 17-40yo Muslim men. At least at this point, strip searching 68yo white women with 44DDs has been an exercise in futility (well....as far as locating explosive devices is concerned)

M&K's Retrievers
01-23-2010, 12:07 AM
There seems to be an almost universal assumption here that hijackings are committed by young, male Muslim religious radicals seeking to attack the west. I decided to test the hypothesis.

In the last decade, as far as I can determine, there have been 12 significant incidents (counting the 9-11 hijackings as one incident) involving 14 planes. In addition to 9-11, only two of those incidents have involved Muslim extremists attempting to destroy the plane. The rest have ranged from a mentally ill Jamaican youth wanting to fly to Cuba, to a a bible carrying Bolivian religious fanatic wanting to meet with the President of Mexico, to a number of people seeking political asylum in western countries, to a disgruntled former airline employee, to people seeking money. A number of these incidents resulted in crashing the planes and killing all or most of those on board. The only such events where the planes were crashed that involved Muslim jihadists were those of 9-11.

I've listed the incidents I was able to identify below if you are interested in checking for yourselves.

2000 Phillipine sky-diver Reginald Chua hijacked plane with grenade and pistol to steal money. Killed after parachuting from plane. Philippine Airlines Flight 812
2000, 11 November: an Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Makhachkala to Moscow was hijacked by a man demanding it be diverted to Israel. The plane landed at Israeli military base where hijacker surrendered. None of 59 people onboard were injured
2001, 15 March: another Vnukovo Airlines Tu-154 flying from Istanbul to Moscow was hijacked by a three Chechen terrorists demanding it be diverted to Saudi Arabia.
2001: September 11 attacks, eastern USA: 19 terrorists hijacked American Airlines flights 11 and 77, and United Airlines flights 93 and 175
Richard Colvin Reid, a British citizen, attempted to ignite a shoe bomb on AA Flight 63, Paris-Miami. Member of al Qaeda
2006: Turkish Airlines Flight 1476, flying from Tirana to Istanbul, was hijacked in Greek airspace by Hakan Ekinci who wanted to go to Rome to meet the Pope and request political asylum.. The aircraft, with 107 passengers and six crew on board,landed safely at Brindisi, Italy
2007: an Air West Boeing 737 was hijacked over Sudan, but landed safely at N'Djamena, Chad. In this case the hijecker was reportedly a member of the Sudanese rebel movement and wanted to get to England.
2007: an Air Mauritanie Boeing 737 flying from Nouakchott to Las Palmas with 87 passengers on board was hijacked by a man who wanted to fly to Paris, but the plane landed in an air base near Las Palmas and the hijacker, a Moroccan, was arrested. He was seeking political asylum in France.
2008: a Sun Air Boeing 737 flying from Nyala, Darfur, in Western Sudan to the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, was hijacked shortly after takeoff. The hijackers demanded to be taken to France where they reputedly wanted to gain asylum.
2009 Bolivian bible carrying religious fanatic hijacks AeroMexico flight with 103 passengers out of Cancun
2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576, a Boeing 737-800 flying from Cancún to Mexico City was hijacked by José Marc Flores Pereira, a Bolivian citizen claiming he had a bomb and demanding to speak to Mexican president Felipe Calderón.
2009 NWA Flt 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit disrupted when Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab attempted to detonate an underwear bomb.

Didn't you leave out the shoe bomber?

Terri
01-23-2010, 01:30 AM
How do we know if a man between 17 and 40 is an extreme Muslim? Is it how he looks, his name, or both?
If you are going by looks, I bet I could put up pictures of men in that age range and you would have a hard time deciding who was Muslim or for that matter middle eastern. People from Pakistan and India are both Indian. Most people from Pakistan are Muslims, but they are not Arab. Most people from India are not Muslim. Most of the men from Indian who wear towels (sheets) on their heads are not Muslim.
It is very hard to tell were a man is from by looking at him, let alone his regilion. My dad is a mix of several groups, but mostly English. He is also German and Italian. When I was a kid we went to Mexico and my dad left his wallet in the car on the U.S. side so it wouldn't get stolen. He got stopped at the border and my mom had to walk to the car to get his Illinois license to prove he wasn't Mexican. He was 30 years old and could have passed for Mexican because he had black hair and a dark tan from being a construction worker. How do you tell the difference between the Illinois guy and the guy from Italy, Spain, Portugal, Mexico, South America, Persia, or any Arab country? Do you think my dad when he was alive liked getting pulled out of line or stopped at boarders? No, he was an ex-marine and a proud American, but at one time before the graying he was profiled. He told me the security at airports after Sept. 11 where just smoke screens and always had been. To be totally safe you would have to do more than take water bottles and nail clippers away from people. He was in his sixties and he thought even at his age he could kill and take over a plane with just a pencil for a weapon. He could make anything a weapon, from his training provided by the marines (foot soldier - first to see battle).
Not all people from the middle east are Muslims. There are Christians from the middle east. Some of those Christian men have Arab names, they may even be Arab. The names are popular in the middle east so the parents name their kids those names. I know Christian kids in this country that have Arab names. Parents here want unique names for their kids. Sometimes they pick Arabic or Persian names because they like the meaning. Some parents know the origin of the name and others just like it because it is different and have no idea it is a middle eastern name.
Now how are we picking out the extreme Muslims?

YardleyLabs
01-23-2010, 05:50 AM
Didn't you leave out the shoe bomber?
Richard Colvin Reed, a British citizen, is fifth on the list and is the shoe bomber.

YardleyLabs
01-23-2010, 05:55 AM
Only if you are flying from Cancun to Mexico City or Phillipine Airlines or Vnukovo Airlines etc. If you are flying within the US or from outside the US...to the US....your profile shows we need to focus on 17-40yo Muslim men. At least at this point, strip searching 68yo white women with 44DDs has been an exercise in futility (well....as far as locating explosive devices is concerned)
I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion based on my list. Please explain. Every incident of concern to us has occurred on an airplane originating outside of the US en route to the US. No incidents have happened on purely domestic flights with the exception of the 9-11 flights. Also, as I've noted, the quickest way to create a problem is to exclude any group from screening since that advertises an opening in security. By the way, several of these incidents involve white people.

dnf777
01-23-2010, 07:20 AM
Actually I wasn't trying to make a point. I was just wondering if you had any evidence to back up the position of strip searching old ladies, while 17 to 40 year old Muslims skip onto the plane. As far as I can tell, you didn't make a case for that position.

You can take this tongue in cheek if you prefer, but there is truth to it also. A DEA agent being interviewed noted that an increasing method of drug distribution throughout the US is on RVs, being driven by retired couples, financing their retirement! Its a perfect ruse if you think about it. Thousands of innocent looking Winnebagos with Gram and Gramps trekking from southern Florida to the rest of the USA twice yearly? Perfect!

I agree that if we advertise that only Muslim men will be subject to securtiy, we'll see a predictable change in MO. And you can pack a lot of C4 into a 44DD!

Cheers all,
I'm enjoying our 44* heat wave!

dave

dback
01-23-2010, 09:07 AM
I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion based on my list. Please explain. Every incident of concern to us has occurred on an airplane originating outside of the US en route to the US. No incidents have happened on purely domestic flights with the exception of the 9-11 flights. Also, as I've noted, the quickest way to create a problem is to exclude any group from screening since that advertises an opening in security. By the way, several of these incidents involve white people.

Jeff...I'm just going by your list. I haven't researched the final destination of each of those flights however, it does not appear that (with the exception of the 9/11, shoe & panty bombers) those aircraft where US bound. From a (selfish) American point of view, it would seem that my primary focus would still be young Muslim males if those other aircraft were not US bound. I agree with your statement that we should not 'exclude' any group, however, while I am by no means the most traveled individual, I do put in considerable flight time (much if it internationally) and I am often struck by what appears to be a disproportionate amount of time spent on relatively low risk individuals to satisfy the PC crowd. IMHO

I was not struck by your statistics as I have been somewhat reluctant to board a plane with HEW. In this current economic atmosphere I am fearful of his desire for an audience with Bernanke. :-) (PM me for an explanation ducknwork ;-))

dback
01-23-2010, 09:11 AM
You can take this tongue in cheek if you prefer, but there is truth to it also. A DEA agent being interviewed noted that an increasing method of drug distribution throughout the US is on RVs, being driven by retired couples, financing their retirement! Its a perfect ruse if you think about it. Thousands of innocent looking Winnebagos with Gram and Gramps trekking from southern Florida to the rest of the USA twice yearly? Perfect!

I agree that if we advertise that only Muslim men will be subject to securtiy, we'll see a predictable change in MO. And you can pack a lot of C4 into a 44DD!

Cheers all,
I'm enjoying our 44* heat wave!

dave

Rest assured I have teased her mercilessly to that effect every since. :-)

Hoosier
01-23-2010, 10:15 AM
You can take this tongue in cheek if you prefer, but there is truth to it also. A DEA agent being interviewed noted that an increasing method of drug distribution throughout the US is on RVs, being driven by retired couples, financing their retirement! Its a perfect ruse if you think about it. Thousands of innocent looking Winnebagos with Gram and Gramps trekking from southern Florida to the rest of the USA twice yearly? Perfect!

I agree that if we advertise that only Muslim men will be subject to securtiy, we'll see a predictable change in MO. And you can pack a lot of C4 into a 44DD!

Cheers all,
I'm enjoying our 44* heat wave!

dave

Well once there is a documented case of an old Jewish lady with a boob bomb. I'll stick with my opinion.

M&K's Retrievers
01-23-2010, 11:22 AM
Richard Colvin Reed, a British citizen, is fifth on the list and is the shoe bomber.

I stand corrected. At madnight I kan't red so goode :p

Sundown49 aka Otey B
01-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Whatever it takes.....EVEN one terrorist getting through is too many.

dnf777
01-23-2010, 03:14 PM
Well once there is a documented case of an old Jewish lady with a boob bomb. I'll stick with my opinion.

You knew, all you had to do was ask, in this age of Google! ;)

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/14lanka.htm

But I doubt she was Jewish, so your ultimatum still stands. I've never heard of a Jewish bra bomber, but I did try to date Mrs. Katz's daughter, and a bomb would have been more merciful!

DD regards,
dave

Uncle Bill
01-23-2010, 05:06 PM
After reading all the posts submitted to this thread, I'm further convinced this is the best solution...although I've never enjoyed seeing a 44DD go to waste.


The best suggestion I've heard recently is for the airports to not bother with the full body scanners...just have a blast-proof booth that you step into, and it will detonate any explosive device you may have on your body.


UB

luvmylabs23139
01-23-2010, 06:03 PM
For what it is worth, on Tuesday coming through immigration in Charlotte, they had a guy submit his fingerprints through the device right at passport control because he couldn't understand english well enough

They do this to all non US citizens at charlotte now including legal green card holders (perm residents).
I have an american accent, been here since 1967, and they did it to me last March when I came back from vacation in Jamaica.
Funny thing was tho, I flew thru immigration in Jamaica and exit Jamaica security faster than anyone else in our group of 14 with my British passport vs their American ones.
We did see however someone who was hanging around the arrivals area as we were waiting for the rest of our group get questioned, asked for id, and taken away for questioning.