PDA

View Full Version : shame on the parents



david gibson
02-24-2010, 01:49 PM
hopefully this link will work:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022303889.html?wpisrc=nl_pmheadline

YardleyLabs
02-24-2010, 02:01 PM
hopefully this link will work:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022303889.html?wpisrc=nl_pmheadline
I would have wanted him fired. There are many people who object to saying the pledge of allegiance: some for religious reasons, some because they are not, in fact, Americans, and some because they simply do not believe in it. The law protects those people. We do not have a mandatory loyalty oath in this country and no teacher has the right to create one. If one of my children had refused to say the pledge and a teacher called the police and subjected him or her to such public humiliation, I would be inclined more toward assault and arson than toward accepting his apology. We had a huge thread on the main forum discussing a teacher who asked that a child cover up a gun displayed in the child's picture. The teacher in this casae is even worse.

david gibson
02-24-2010, 02:41 PM
I would have wanted him fired. There are many people who object to saying the pledge of allegiance: some for religious reasons, some because they are not, in fact, Americans, and some because they simply do not believe in it. The law protects those people. We do not have a mandatory loyalty oath in this country and no teacher has the right to create one. If one of my children had refused to say the pledge and a teacher called the police and subjected him or her to such public humiliation, I would be inclined more toward assault and arson than toward accepting his apology. We had a huge thread on the main forum discussing a teacher who asked that a child cover up a gun displayed in the child's picture. The teacher in this casae is even worse.

you, sir, are what is wrong with this country.

i applaud the teacher. the kid was not punished, just removed. she was not forced to say it, so her rights were not infringed upon.

the kid should be humiliated for not saying the pledge of allegiance and the parents shamed for not raising their kid to love the country that has given them such a good life. do they have a right not to say it?? yes, of course. but that right was not revoked by being removed from the room. get the pinhead out of the room so as not to be a distraction from the patriotic students. then she can return, and be laughed at. thats the right of the other students as well.

i just dont get why someone would refuse to say the pledge. if you feel that strongly, why are you here?

JJaxon
02-24-2010, 02:57 PM
Amazing, that some think they have the right to refuse to be respectful of our flag, yet demand we not embarrass, shame or humiliate them because of their lack of patriotism. If you don't want to say the pledge, don't say it. If I see you not saying it I will assume you are a visitor, ask you how long your staying and when you plan to return to your own country. If that embarrasses you and you feel offended, feel free to walk away but don't tell me you have rights that I violated. If we continue to allow moronic laws like this be upheld, we are doomed to bow to the morons.

BonMallari
02-24-2010, 03:59 PM
"with liberty and justice for ALL"......whether we like it or not that child has that freedom, I do think the teacher went overboard and I hate the ACLU as much as anyone...but freedom isnt true freedom if opposing views arent tolerated

YardleyLabs
02-24-2010, 04:19 PM
Although originally written in 1892, the Pledge was not officially recognized by Congress until 1942. In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that it could not be required in schools in part because of religious objections by Jehovah's Witnesses who cannot swear loyalty to anyone/anything other than God, but more importaly as a violation of the First Amendment because mandatory recitation of the pledge is an attempt to enforce uniformity of thought.

Having graduated high school in a class of 100 students from 31 different countries, I tend to be sensitive to efforts to define patriotism in terms of pledges and salutes, and to efforts to impose uniformity of thought in any context. For me, forced pledges, like forced prayers, are a sign of totalitarianism, not patriotism. More importantly, in this case, the teacher was acting in direct contradiction of both national and state law, which explicitly prohibit efforts to force students to recite the pledge. Demanding that the student say the pledge and then calling the police to have her forcibly removed from the classroom when she refused was illegal and cruel. He is the one who should have been forcibly removed and his removal should have been permanent.

david gibson
02-24-2010, 04:26 PM
Although originally written in 1892, the Pledge was not officially recognized by Congress until 1942. In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that it could not be required in schools in part because of religious objections by Jehovah's Witnesses who cannot swear loyalty to anyone/anything other than God, but more importaly as a violation of the First Amendment because mandatory recitation of the pledge is an attempt to enforce uniformity of thought.

Having graduated high school in a class of 100 students from 31 different countries, I tend to be sensitive to efforts to define patriotism in terms of pledges and salutes, and to efforts to impose uniformity of thought in any context. For me, forced pledges, like forced prayers, are a sign of totalitarianism, not patriotism. More importantly, in this case, the teacher was acting in direct contradiction of both national and state law, which explicitly prohibit efforts to force students to recite the pledge. Demanding that the student say the pledge and then calling the police to have her forcibly removed from the classroom when she refused was illegal and cruel. He is the one who should have been forcibly removed and his removal should have been permanent.

again - you sir, and your likes, are what is wrong with this country.

go to iran, enroll your kid in an islamic school, and tell him/her not to go to bended knees toward meccah when the time comes.....and see what will happen.

being removed from the room during the pledge only is pretty mild.

man i hate liberals

Buzz
02-24-2010, 04:36 PM
go to iran, enroll your kid in an islamic school, and tell him/her not to go to bended knees toward meccah when the time comes.....and see what will happen.



Pointing out what's wrong with Iran just underscores what is right with America.

david gibson
02-24-2010, 04:55 PM
Pointing out what's wrong with Iran just underscores what is right with America.

waaait a minute. in America, the teacher removed the kid from the room. whoooped frickin doo.

in Iran, the kid would be stoned to death.

yeah, america is right in that we allow this kid/family to have opposing views. again, whoooped frickin doo...no one took those views away, they just wanted her out of their patriotic environment.

i think the teacher has a right to have a patriotic classroom.

the kid was not arrested or denied due process. just removed so that patriotic americans can express their views in a wholesome environment.

boy do i hate liberals. you liberals are slowly creating the downfall of an America my dad and uncles fought to protect for you and me.

and you just dont get it. you think freedom of everything will bring us all into a cum-bah-ya moment.

dream on.

Buzz
02-24-2010, 05:11 PM
you think freedom of everything will bring us all into a cum-bah-ya moment.



Now you're just $h!tt!ng me, right?

YardleyLabs
02-24-2010, 05:24 PM
waaait a minute. in America, the teacher removed the kid from the room. whoooped frickin doo.

in Iran, the kid would be stoned to death.

yeah, america is right in that we allow this kid/family to have opposing views. again, whoooped frickin doo...no one took those views away, they just wanted her out of their patriotic environment.

i think the teacher has a right to have a patriotic classroom.

the kid was not arrested or denied due process. just removed so that patriotic americans can express their views in a wholesome environment.

boy do i hate liberals. you liberals are slowly creating the downfall of an America my dad and uncles fought to protect for you and me.

and you just dont get it. you think freedom of everything will bring us all into a cum-bah-ya moment.

dream on.
The kid was forcibly removed from the classroom by police officers at the request of the teacher. The kid was not arrested because she did nothing illegal. The only person acting illegally was the teacher. We are talking about a public school classroom and a girl who was not being disruptive but was exercising her legal rights within the classroom. If the teacher can get away with that, the next step might be requiring students to sing a song praising Obama....

If I, by supporting her constitutional and legal rights, am what is wrong with your country, then I have to believe that your country is not the US or A. We pride ourselves on being a nation of laws and a nation that respects individual rights. That particular teacher fails on both counts. Apparently, so do you.

Cody Covey
02-24-2010, 05:41 PM
how does asking a student to step into the hall until the pledge of allegance is over a violation of constitutional rights? Did the teacher over react? Yes probably but a violation of constitutional rights? doesn't sound like it to me.

david gibson
02-24-2010, 05:45 PM
The kid was forcibly removed from the classroom by police officers at the request of the teacher. The kid was not arrested because she did nothing illegal. The only person acting illegally was the teacher. We are talking about a public school classroom and a girl who was not being disruptive but was exercising her legal rights within the classroom. If the teacher can get away with that, the next step might be requiring students to sing a song praising Obama....

If I, by supporting her constitutional and legal rights, am what is wrong with your country, then I have to believe that your country is not the US or A. We pride ourselves on being a nation of laws and a nation that respects individual rights. That particular teacher fails on both counts. Apparently, so do you.

yes sir - you are right you are so totally right - and thats what is wrong. when all these beliefs that have made this country strong suddenly serve to give our enemies a straight shot to our jugular, do you not see a difference?

truly? a full democracy, just like communism/socialism whatever. only exists in purity in its fictitious form.

we are all seeing the downfall of the mighty country our Greatest Generation fought to protect. and its sad to see liberals open it all up to those that seek to destroy us. the very rules that made us great allow loopholes for our enemies to infiltrate us. our founding fathers would have been the first to say "whooooa - we need to amend this a bit here, we are opening up our flanks!"

if Ben Franklin were here he would slap you upside the head! (i have always loved that colloquialism)


sigh.......

YardleyLabs
02-24-2010, 06:07 PM
yes sir - you are right you are so totally right - and thats what is wrong. when all these beliefs that have made this country strong suddenly serve to give our enemies a straight shot to our jugular, do you not see a difference?

truly? a full democracy, just like communism/socialism whatever. only exists in purity in its fictitious form.

we are all seeing the downfall of the mighty country our Greatest Generation fought to protect. and its sad to see liberals open it all up to those that seek to destroy us. the very rules that made us great allow loopholes for our enemies to infiltrate us. our founding fathers would have been the first to say "whooooa - we need to amend this a bit here, we are opening up our flanks!"

if Ben Franklin were here he would slap you upside the head! (i have always loved that colloquialism)


sigh.......
I don't think you know much about Ben Franklin. He was without doubt one of the most irreverent of our true "greatest generation" and would probably have had some choice words for anyone suggesting a pledge of allegiance.

We managed very well as a country in the 166 years before we adopted a pledge of allegiance. When the pledge was adopted, there were definitely some in my home state of Tennessee who viewed it as one more slap at the Confederacy. Personally, I believe that the greatest threats to our country come from within and specifically from those who are willing to sacrifice the freedoms that our forefathers, including my ancestors, fought for so hard in the name of conformity to their own notions of Right. By the way, where did your comment about "full democracy" come from? I think I actually just posted my view that full democracy has little to do with how our country was originally set up or how it operates today. What we do have is representative democracy and rule of law. Those, combined with irreverent individualism, are the true hallmarks and strength of our country. Those who seek to wrap themselves in the flag are those who understand it least.

Koolaid
02-24-2010, 06:16 PM
One of my favourites from one of the greatest men to live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGtL4XwWckE

david gibson
02-24-2010, 06:40 PM
I don't think you know much about Ben Franklin. He was without doubt one of the most irreverent of our true "greatest generation" and would probably have had some choice words for anyone suggesting a pledge of allegiance.

We managed very well as a country in the 166 years before we adopted a pledge of allegiance. When the pledge was adopted, there were definitely some in my home state of Tennessee who viewed it as one more slap at the Confederacy. Personally, I believe that the greatest threats to our country come from within and specifically from those who are willing to sacrifice the freedoms that our forefathers, including my ancestors, fought for so hard in the name of conformity to their own notions of Right. By the way, where did your comment about "full democracy" come from? I think I actually just posted my view that full democracy has little to do with how our country was originally set up or how it operates today. What we do have is representative democracy and rule of law. Those, combined with irreverent individualism, are the true hallmarks and strength of our country. Those who seek to wrap themselves in the flag are those who understand it least.

says you, a liberal

Joe S.
02-24-2010, 07:39 PM
man i hate liberals

Hummm...yeah, well just don't THAT beat all.

With Liberty and Justice for ALL Regards,

Joe S.

DSO
02-24-2010, 07:44 PM
The Montgomery school system's student handbook contains a section about "Patriotic Exercises" that reads: "You cannot be required to say a pledge, sing an anthem, or take part in patriotic exercises. No one will be permitted to intentionally embarrass you if you choose not to participate."

After the 1st day when the child did not participate I would have advised her/him that they could stay in the principals office until after the pledge. At that point if the child decided to come to class the next day, she/he would be attempting to forward their personal agenda and influence other students on school time (totally unacceptable) and was obviously not all that uncomfortable or "embarrassed" about her predicament. There should be a pile of parents at the next BOE meeting asking why the school is allowing one student to influence a class in this way. If he/she does not want to say the pledge... Fine! stay out of the classroom until it is completed. Pretty simple actually. Hey... Maybe my kid will refuse to study anything about other religions because he is a devout catholic. Can he sit there with folded arms / book closed / be excused from taking any exams on the subject...? Freedom of religion right? That seems to be what some are suggesting here.:rolleyes: What a bunch of crap.

Danny

dnf777
02-24-2010, 09:17 PM
boy do i hate liberals. you liberals are slowly creating the downfall of an America my dad and uncles fought to protect for you and me.

.

Well, first, I'm sorry that you're so filled with hate towards so many of your fellow Americans, and more than a handful of your fellow retriever enthusiasts. You should learn to let the hate go. You will be much richer and happier for it.

Second, my relatives, some of whom are liberal, fought in the Civil War (on the right side) WWI, WWII, Viet nam, and Korea for that same America you speak of. My father in law was about as liberal as you can get, and we display his veteran's funerary flag to this day on our mantle. Please learn to let go of the anger, and accept others for who and what they are, even if it's different from you. Its part of what makes America great.

JDogger
02-24-2010, 10:35 PM
One of my favourites from one of the greatest men to live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGtL4XwWckE

Thanks Koolaid, I wonder what Carlin would be sayin' today?

JD

Eric Johnson
02-24-2010, 10:50 PM
Given the Supreme Court decision and the student handbook, the teacher could have demonstrated a bit more restraint.

Frankly, I had the impression from the news story that the teacher lost his or her composure and that shouldn't happen. The teacher was yelling and the students took their lead from the teacher and mocked the student.

It was a furball and that shouldn't happen in a classroom. If a student acted as the teacher did, they'd be sent to the office. Teachers ought to be better behaved than the students.

Eric

PS: This was in Montgomery, MD....right? Given the proximity to Washington DC, there's no telling what nationality the student was. That's not been mentioned.

paul young
02-25-2010, 05:52 AM
all i can say is......WOW!

thanks for the honesty, David. at least you admit you hate me/us. i'm pretty sure there are others that regularly post here that also feel that way, but won't admit to hating me/us.

following your logic, it would make sense to give dishonorable discharges to all the "liberals" currently serving in the armed services and revoke all service awards from "liberal" veterans, alive and dead. after all, they're what's wrong with this country.

my Father and Grandfather just rolled in their graves regards.-Paul

dnf777
02-25-2010, 06:23 AM
Given the Supreme Court decision and the student handbook, the teacher could have demonstrated a bit more restraint.

Frankly, I had the impression from the news story that the teacher lost his or her composure and that shouldn't happen. The teacher was yelling and the students took their lead from the teacher and mocked the student.

It was a furball and that shouldn't happen in a classroom. If a student acted as the teacher did, they'd be sent to the office. Teachers ought to be better behaved than the students.

Eric

PS: This was in Montgomery, MD....right? Given the proximity to Washington DC, there's no telling what nationality the student was. That's not been mentioned.


Let me clearly state that I proudly recite the Pledge of Allegiance and either salute (if in uniform) or place my hand over my heart in the position of attention whenever the colors are presented, as to not invoke the hatred of any fellow posters!

I do hovever cringe slightly when we proclaim our "indivisibility"! I'm quite certain that Jefferson Davis and his generals, as well as 600,000 dead American and Confederate troops and their families would disagree. If not for the strong, super-human leadership of Pres. Lincoln, and a whoopin by the Yanks, this country would have indeed remained "divided", as it was for 3 1/2 years. I chalk it up to "indivisible" from now on, since we've had our little spat, and worked it out. (most of us, anyway)

I won't even mention the idiotic calls for Texas' sucession in this discussion. Oops.

paul young
02-25-2010, 06:59 AM
"Let me clearly state that I proudly recite the Pledge of Allegiance and either salute (if in uniform) or place my hand over my heart in the position of attention whenever the colors are presented, as to not invoke the hatred of any fellow posters!"-dnf777

nice try, Dave, but that won't be good enough.

i do the same, and even though i love our country and what it stands for, and work towards making it stronger every day, i know that's not enough for some.-Paul

BonMallari
02-25-2010, 09:37 AM
all i can say is......WOW!

thanks for the honesty, David. at least you admit you hate me/us. i'm pretty sure there are others that regularly post here that also feel that way, but won't admit to hating me/us.

following your logic, it would make sense to give dishonorable discharges to all the "liberals" currently serving in the armed services and revoke all service awards from "liberal" veterans, alive and dead. after all, they're what's wrong with this country.

my Father and Grandfather just rolled in their graves regards.-Paul

Please do not put me in that group, his view and use of the word liberal does not match my view and use of the word...

david gibson
02-25-2010, 09:50 AM
all i can say is......WOW!

thanks for the honesty, David. at least you admit you hate me/us. i'm pretty sure there are others that regularly post here that also feel that way, but won't admit to hating me/us.

following your logic, it would make sense to give dishonorable discharges to all the "liberals" currently serving in the armed services and revoke all service awards from "liberal" veterans, alive and dead. after all, they're what's wrong with this country.

my Father and Grandfather just rolled in their graves regards.-Paul

there you go again. you know darn well i mean that in the colloquial sense. some of my best friends are liberals. i dont truly "hate" them. put your big boy pants on.

but i do belive liberalism is far more detrimental to our safety that conservatism. the extremely liberal laws and rules ala ACLU serves to protect our enemies living amongst us. liberalism like socialism and communism all sound great and would be wonderful if they worked in real life as well as they do on paper. but then something called "reality" happens.

peace out

Ken Bora
02-25-2010, 09:54 AM
Thank you very much David. For years I was sure I was a young Regan Republican. For a while now I am thinking I have been a libertarian on accident, kind of drifted to it. But now, because of you I now realize I must be a liberal.
Joe, is there a secret handshake or something I should know about?


.

Julie R.
02-25-2010, 11:03 AM
I've followed this story closely since it's been on our local news a lot. And several things about it really bother me that have not been addressed. Was the teacher wrong in the way he went about insisting the child stand for the Pledge of Allegiance? Perhaps.

But what really bothers me is the belief so many hold that it's OK for a 13 year old child to openly defy a teacher and snub her nose at the Pledge while attending free public school in the United States of America. The D.C. metro area probably has more ethnic schools available that would suit this family's beliefs than anyplace else in the country. If her parents have so indoctrinated her already that this country is such a despicable place that she can't do as the rest of the school and stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, there are plenty of other schools they can choose. If not, then it's incumbent upon them to make arrangements in advance with school officials such as having her sit in the principal's office during the pledge.

Increasingly it seems that parents are failing to instill values of work ethics, respect and responsibility in their own children and expect schools to take up the slack. But they're mighty quick to send their kids to fight adult battles, even enlisting lawyers and the ACLU if they disagree with the lessons.

david gibson
02-25-2010, 11:16 AM
I've followed this story closely since it's been on our local news a lot. And several things about it really bother me that have not been addressed. Was the teacher wrong in the way he went about insisting the child stand for the Pledge of Allegiance? Perhaps.

But what really bothers me is the belief so many hold that it's OK for a 13 year old child to openly defy a teacher and snub her nose at the Pledge while attending free public school in the United States of America. The D.C. metro area probably has more ethnic schools available that would suit this family's beliefs than anyplace else in the country. If her parents have so indoctrinated her already that this country is such a despicable place that she can't do as the rest of the school and stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, there are plenty of other schools they can choose. If not, then it's incumbent upon them to make arrangements in advance with school officials such as having her sit in the principal's office during the pledge.

Increasingly it seems that parents are failing to instill values of work ethics, respect and responsibility in their own children and expect schools to take up the slack. But they're mighty quick to send their kids to fight adult battles, even enlisting lawyers and the ACLU if they disagree with the lessons.

hence the title of the thread - shame on the parents.

YardleyLabs
02-25-2010, 12:06 PM
...
But what really bothers me is the belief so many hold that it's OK for a 13 year old child to openly defy a teacher and snub her nose at the Pledge while attending free public school in the United States of America. ...

Oddly, the belief came not from the parents but from the schools written policies articulated in the student handbook, from state law, and from the Supreme Court of the United States. As noted in the story referenced in the OP:

"The Montgomery school system's student handbook contains a section about "Patriotic Exercises" that reads: "You cannot be required to say a pledge, sing an anthem, or take part in patriotic exercises. No one will be permitted to intentionally embarrass you if you choose not to participate." The incident began on a Wednesday in late January, when the girl did not stand for the pledge. Her teacher yelled at her, demanded that she stand and then sent her to the office for her defiance, Quereshi said. The school system confirmed the sequence of events.
The next morning, the girl again refused to stand for the pledge. This time, the teacher called two school police officers to the classroom to escort the girl to the office."

How can you interpret the teacher's action as anything except a direct violation of this policy? What I do not understand is why the teacher was not formally warned following the incident on the first day with a reminder that the girl was acting appropriately and that he was not. If he was warned, but called security the following day anyway, he should have been suspended immediately. If he was not warned after the first incident, then the administrators in the school failed in their responsibilities. The issue has nothing to do with whether we agree with the girl's choice; the law and the policy make it her choice, not ours. Given that, the teacher's behavior was a gross, repeated violation of school policy and the law.

Cody Covey
02-25-2010, 12:54 PM
maybe i'm missing part of the story but i don't see where he made her follow in the pledge and no where did he intentionally embarrass her? Making her leave the classroom because she didn't want to participate in something doesn't embarrass her if anything it makes accommodations for her that I BELIEVE she shouldn't have in the first place. you are in this country in a government run school. The LEAST you can do is say the pledge of allegiance.

YardleyLabs
02-25-2010, 01:22 PM
maybe i'm missing part of the story but i don't see where he made her follow in the pledge and no where did he intentionally embarrass her? Making her leave the classroom because she didn't want to participate in something doesn't embarrass her if anything it makes accommodations for her that I BELIEVE she shouldn't have in the first place. you are in this country in a government run school. The LEAST you can do is say the pledge of allegiance.
If you are 13 years old and the teacher yells at you, ordering you to stand up for the pledge and, when you refuse, yells at you further, allows others in the class to taunt you, and then orders you to the office, you are embarrassed. If, on the following day, the teacher repeats this behavior and then calls for school police to take to forcibly to the office, you are even more embarrassed. From the description in the the story (Which I will concede could be wrong but which was not challenged by anyone), it is apparent that the teacher was trying to compel the girl to join in the pledge, which violates school policy and the law, and chose to chastise her in a very public manner, which also violates school policy. The fact is that she had every right, under school policy, to do what she did without interference from the teacher.

dnf777
02-25-2010, 01:26 PM
makes accommodations for her that I BELIEVE she shouldn't have in the first place. you are in this country in a government run school. The LEAST you can do is say the pledge of allegiance.

Isn't it kind of paradoxical that folks want gov't out of their lives, and to assume a minimist role, (teabagger doctrine) yet have no problem with mandating that people pledge allegiance to that same entity?

I say the pledge because I'm proud to be an American, and pay respect to the symbol representing it. Not because I'm mandated to. In fact, if you see people pledging allegiance because they're mandated to, that kind of diminishes the meaning of it all, doesn't it?

And do any of the othe patriots who are upset at this issue, also upset with the number of atheletes who think its appropriate to wrap themselves in Old Glory? Wearing the flag as clothing is distinctly poor etiquette and lack of respect for the flag.

Cody Covey
02-25-2010, 01:39 PM
If you are 13 years old and the teacher yells at you, ordering you to stand up for the pledge and, when you refuse, yells at you further, allows others in the class to taunt you, and then orders you to the office, you are embarrassed. If, on the following day, the teacher repeats this behavior and then calls for school police to take to forcibly to the office, you are even more embarrassed. From the description in the the story (Which I will concede could be wrong but which was not challenged by anyone), it is apparent that the teacher was trying to compel the girl to join in the pledge, which violates school policy and the law, and chose to chastise her in a very public manner, which also violates school policy. The fact is that she had every right, under school policy, to do what she did without interference from the teacher.
He didn't yell at her and make her stand up for the pledge he yelled at her after she refused to leave the room. I was yelled at multiple times in my high school days, I wasn't embarrassed I knew I messed up. If getting yelled at because you don't listen to instructions is embarrassing she is going to have a hard time making it through life unless she never plans to do anything wrong, ever.
The kids make fun of her that doesn't mean its the teacher embarrassing her. Were you never made fun of in school Jeff? I find it hard to believe that any kid can make it through school without getting made fun of by other kids, especially when they won't listen to directions and are then in trouble.

And to Dave. You say us teabagggers want less government intrusion...yes this is correct, but this didn't happen at your local daycare this was at a government institution. I mean god forbid (or allah or whatever) someone shows a little patriotism. What is the world coming to.

Goose
02-25-2010, 01:44 PM
Well, first, I'm sorry that you're so filled with hate towards so many of your fellow Americans, and more than a handful of your fellow retriever enthusiasts. You should learn to let the hate go. You will be much richer and happier for it.

Second, my relatives, some of whom are liberal, fought in the Civil War (on the right side) WWI, WWII, Viet nam, and Korea for that same America you speak of. My father in law was about as liberal as you can get, and we display his veteran's funerary flag to this day on our mantle. Please learn to let go of the anger, and accept others for who and what they are, even if it's different from you. Its part of what makes America great.

Please tell us all which side was right.

dnf777
02-25-2010, 01:46 PM
And to Dave. You say us teabagggers want less government intrusion...yes this is correct, but this didn't happen at your local daycare this was at a government institution. I mean god forbid (or allah or whatever) someone shows a little patriotism. What is the world coming to.

What difference does it make WHERE it happened. If gov't is so bad, and deserves no place in the lives of its citizens, then why should anyone be forced to pledge their allegiance to the same?

How many of you would stand up as a courtesy and show of respect if Mr. Obama walked into the room? Very few, I'd bet! Same thing. Nobody should be forced to display allegiance if it's not sincere. There are many reasons that someone may choose not to stand for a president, or to pledge allegiance to the flag. I choose to. Some others choose not to. I would be inclined to ask them WHY, and gently try to show them the opportunities afforded them by this country. But if they choose not to, that's their freedom.

Buzz
02-25-2010, 02:07 PM
I wonder what the reaction would be to the school requiring these 13 year olds to spend 15 minutes listening to an address from President Obama?

Oh, that's right, how could I forget...

Cody Covey
02-25-2010, 02:11 PM
don't recall the government being in the pledge of allegiance....hell maybe we said the wrong one in school.

Buzz
02-25-2010, 02:21 PM
don't recall the government being in the pledge of allegiance....hell maybe we said the wrong one in school.

and to the republic for which it stands...


By the way, I proudly recite the pledge, and I hope my daughter does too. If my daughter was the one embroiled in this whole controversy, I would be extremely disappointed in her, and things would be very difficult for her at home. But I would treat the teacher the same way my dad did a teacher if mine who dragged me to the front of the class, by force, and tried to stick my finger into a pencil sharpener, threatening to sharpen my finger and make me write by the bloody end because I'd forgotten my pencil.

He walked up the the guy while he was on his way out to his car in a parking lot where there would be no one to hear what he said, and warned the guy that from now on, he better be looking over this shoulder.

Cody Covey
02-25-2010, 03:32 PM
the republic refers to country not the government...those are still different thigns..for now.

YardleyLabs
02-25-2010, 03:35 PM
He didn't yell at her and make her stand up for the pledge he yelled at her after she refused to leave the room. ....
From the Washington Post story: " Her teacher yelled at her, demanded that she stand and then sent her to the office for her defiance..." That was the first instance. The next day: "The next morning, the girl again refused to stand for the pledge. This time, the teacher called two school police officers to the classroom to escort the girl to the office." In each casze she was being punished (yelled at, sent to office, escorted by police) for failure to obey her teacher's insistence that she stand for the pledge, not because she refused to leave the room. In any event, he also would have been wrong under school policy for requiring her to leave the room based on her refusal.

YardleyLabs
02-25-2010, 03:39 PM
the republic refers to country not the government...those are still different thigns..for now.
Not trying to be too pissy, but the word "republic" is defined as a government. From Merriam Webster: a government (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic#) having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president.

Buzz
02-25-2010, 03:57 PM
Republic -

–noun
1.
a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosendirectly or indirectly by them.
2.
any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.
3.
a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.
4.
(initial capital letter) any of the five periods of republican government in France.Compare First Republic, Second Republic, Third Republic, Fourth Republic, Fifth Republic.
5.
(initial capital letter, italics) a philosophical dialogue (4th century b.c.) by Plato dealing with the composition and structure of the ideal state.

Cody Covey
02-25-2010, 04:22 PM
i realize what the definition of a republic is....But in this case I've never thought of it as referring to government but as the country. There are many times in speeches and writings where the country is referred to as our republic or something similar and they are referring to country not the type of government. It doesn't even make sense if they were talking about the flag representing a type of government...

dnf777
02-25-2010, 04:40 PM
i realize what the definition of a republic is....But in this case I've never thought of it as referring to government but as the country. There are many times in speeches and writings where the country is referred to as our republic or something similar and they are referring to country not the type of government. It doesn't even make sense if they were talking about the flag representing a type of government...

If somebody is referring to our country, why not call it "our country"? Republic refers to government.

Goose,
The United States of America was the right side. Do you need guidance as to who was right during WWII also? Or the current wars? I'm surprised at you.

Gee, now that you all know that when you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you are including "the republic, for which it stands", which now we know, thanks to Jeff, includes the non-monarchial President (aka Barak Hussein Obama) will you all be joining the little girl in refusing to say the pledge. I mean, you might as well be bowing to Barak Obama in a show of allegiance!:shock:

Goose
02-25-2010, 05:39 PM
If somebody is referring to our country, why not call it "our country"? Republic refers to government.

Goose,
The United States of America was the right side. Do you need guidance as to who was right during WWII also? Or the current wars? I'm surprised at you.

Gee, now that you all know that when you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you are including "the republic, for which it stands", which now we know, thanks to Jeff, includes the non-monarchial President (aka Barak Hussein Obama) will you all be joining the little girl in refusing to say the pledge. I mean, you might as well be bowing to Barak Obama in a show of allegiance!:shock:

The states weren't united back then. Don't be a doofus. Tell us which side you'd fight for. Don't be skeered.

Are you a rebel or a blue belly? You like Josey Wales or Captain Redlegs?

dnf777
02-25-2010, 06:00 PM
The states weren't united back then. Don't be a doofus. Tell us which side you'd fight for. Don't be skeered.

Are you a rebel or a blue belly? You like Josey Wales or Captain Redlegs?

So why do you say "indivisible" in the pledge? I take it to mean indivisible NOW. I wonder if Rick Perry's nose grows when he says the pledge, then talks secession?

Joe S.
02-25-2010, 07:23 PM
Thank you very much David. For years I was sure I was a young Regan Republican. For a while now I am thinking I have been a libertarian on accident, kind of drifted to it. But now, because of you I now realize I must be a liberal.
Joe, is there a secret handshake or something I should know about?


.

No, Ken, no secret handshake...just a headshaken in amazement from time to time.

21 years, 7 days in the Air Force with some time spent doing nasty things on dark nights in far away places, 13 years in Emergency Response for DOE/NNSA dealing with nuclear non-proliferation and counterterrorism only to find out I'm hated by a fellow citizen because I believe differently than he does. WHO KNEW??

Is It Syrup Yet Regards,

Joe S.

david gibson
02-25-2010, 09:28 PM
Thank you very much David. For years I was sure I was a young Regan Republican. For a while now I am thinking I have been a libertarian on accident, kind of drifted to it. But now, because of you I now realize I must be a liberal.
Joe, is there a secret handshake or something I should know about?


.

so you are a liberal and refuse to say the pledge of allegiance as well?
internet typos being excusable nonetheless, if you can't spell his name right then you probably never really believed in him in the first place... ;-)

Ken Bora
02-25-2010, 09:46 PM
I type very fast when I am going out the door to work.
David, you know your wrong on this one.
It is a Fallon-ism to, when backed into a corner, attack spelling.
What makes “us” great is not the entire population marching in lockstep saying an oath or pledge.
What makes “us” great is that we are free to say or not say without persecution.
I know that you know that David.

.

Buzz
02-25-2010, 10:00 PM
It sure would be interesting to hear more details about this story. I brought the story up with my wife and 10 year old daughter tonight. My daughter says, well there are two girls in my class that don't get up and do the pledge in the morning. I asked if she knew why not. She says, well they are some religion that doesn't allow that. I said do you recall which religion? Nope. So I asked, was it Jehova's Witness? She says, "Yes that's it!"

I agree with Ken. These are not freedoms that are the downfall of America. They are what make us great.

Ken Bora
02-25-2010, 10:06 PM
so you are a liberal and refuse to say the pledge of allegiance as well?
... ;-)
My Dads second wife used to be a Jehovah’s Witness who had a day job of selling world book encyclopedias door to door. In rural Vermont in the mid 1970’s Lets say I have seen both sides of persecution. She sparked my interest in reading about all religions and held great discussions in theology and patriotism.

.

Marvin S
02-25-2010, 10:19 PM
hopefully this link will work:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022303889.html?wpisrc=nl_pmheadline

How did we get from this post to what has been posted on this thread?

IMO the teacher is a bonehead, missing the opportunity to have a teaching moment & ending up in a situation where there will be NO winners.

TBS, just because the teacher wants to wear their patriotic underwear does not mean they should be given a pass for their stupid actions.

precisionlabradors
02-25-2010, 11:22 PM
I wonder what the reaction would be to the school requiring these 13 year olds to spend 15 minutes listening to an address from President Obama?

Oh, that's right, how could I forget...


my favorite post that should not be ignored. david, you have the freedom to complain about our president.

remember how many people were freaking out about obama speaking to the kids and taking their kids out of the classroom? lots and lots of supporters of that disrespect on this board?

what's the difference in patriotism betweent not saying the pledge and disrespecting the president?

david wouldn't our freedom be great if we were all enslaved to your point of view?
________
Redhead girl live (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/redhead-girls/)

Julie R.
02-26-2010, 01:09 PM
Oddly, the belief came not from the parents but from the schools written policies articulated in the student handbook, from state law, and from the Supreme Court of the United States. As noted in the story referenced in the OP:

"The Montgomery school system's student handbook contains a section about "Patriotic Exercises" that reads: "You cannot be required to say a pledge, sing an anthem, or take part in patriotic exercises. No one will be permitted to intentionally embarrass you if you choose not to participate." The incident began on a Wednesday in late January, when the girl did not stand for the pledge. Her teacher yelled at her, demanded that she stand and then sent her to the office for her defiance, Quereshi said. The school system confirmed the sequence of events.
The next morning, the girl again refused to stand for the pledge. This time, the teacher called two school police officers to the classroom to escort the girl to the office."

How can you interpret the teacher's action as anything except a direct violation of this policy? What I do not understand is why the teacher was not formally warned following the incident on the first day with a reminder that the girl was acting appropriately and that he was not. If he was warned, but called security the following day anyway, he should have been suspended immediately. If he was not warned after the first incident, then the administrators in the school failed in their responsibilities. The issue has nothing to do with whether we agree with the girl's choice; the law and the policy make it her choice, not ours. Given that, the teacher's behavior was a gross, repeated violation of school policy and the law.

And I'm just sure the child read the entire manual and the defiance was her own idea :rolleyes:. At best it was a childish prank intended to goad the teacher into doing what he did. There is a bit more to this story than what the liberal media is reporting. I said the teacher's actions were inappropriate, but must we encourage children to be able to undermine teachers? This incident reminds me of the skateboarders who were taunting cops in Baltimore so they could make youtube videos.

Just because the handbook allows a child to not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance I rather doubt it encourages this sort of thing. Come to think of it, maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Of course she's a child and the teacher was the adult, but the entire incident is still a symptom of what's wrong with big government trying to be PC and get schools to instill values in children that the parents fail to.

YardleyLabs
02-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Julie,

I have no idea what motivated her decision. The fact is that her motivation is completely irrelevant given the policy and the law. The teacher clearly rejected both the policy and the law and decided to treat her action as personal defiance. In doing so, he committed an act of civil disobedience. That too is a choice (actually, a defiant one). But as one who has also chosen to commit acts of civil disobedience, I figure you have no basis for complaint when forced to pay the penalty. In this case I have no sympathy for the teacher since he made a 13 year old a victim of his tantrum and, ultimately, he is the one responsible for being the adult.

dnf777
02-26-2010, 02:23 PM
And I'm just sure the child read the entire manual and the defiance was her own idea :rolleyes:. At best it was a childish prank intended to goad the teacher into doing what he did. There is a bit more to this story than what the liberal media is reporting. I said the teacher's actions were inappropriate, but must we encourage children to be able to undermine teachers? This incident reminds me of the skateboarders who were taunting cops in Baltimore so they could make youtube videos.

Just because the handbook allows a child to not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance I rather doubt it encourages this sort of thing. Come to think of it, maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Of course she's a child and the teacher was the adult, but the entire incident is still a symptom of what's wrong with big government trying to be PC and get schools to instill values in children that the parents fail to.

Maybe that teacher should apply for a job at the school where they activate web cams in students' homes. She'd fit right in, rooting out 13 year old communist sympathizers and other equally despicable liberals! :rolleyes:

Blackstone
02-26-2010, 05:32 PM
Does anyone know for sure why the girl refused to stand? I couldn’t find it posted any where on the web. Perhaps she was acting on her religious beliefs. If so, she was indeed acting based on the values instilled by her parents, rather than having a lack of values.

Regardless, the teacher appears to have violated the State law and school policy by trying to force her to stand. The law is what it is, and is not open to interpretation by a teacher.