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J Hoggatt
03-19-2010, 08:17 PM
IF you are a member of the Democratic Party --

Please tell me how proud you are of your party in the way it is abusing/using the legislative reconciliation to pass a health care bill that 55% of the American people are opposed to???????

Also--
Deemed Passed --Don't have the courage to vote?????

REGARDLESS of the Bill--- just what do you think of these tactics?

dnf777
03-19-2010, 08:29 PM
IF you are a member of the Democratic Party --

Please tell me how proud you are of your party in the way it is abusing/using the legislative reconciliation to pass a health care bill that 55% of the American people are opposed to???????

Also--
Deemed Passed --Don't have the courage to vote?????

REGARDLESS of the Bill--- just what do you think of these tactics?

I'm not a registered democrat, but I'll ask in return, how did YOU feel when Bush and the republican congress used the same tactics for the past 8 years? And I don't want to play "dueling sources", but I've seen support numbers in the upper 60s to low 70s for this bill.

dback
03-19-2010, 08:30 PM
IF you are a member of the Democratic Party --

Please tell me how proud you are of your party in the way it is abusing/using the legislative reconciliation to pass a health care bill that 55% of the American people are opposed to???????

Also--
Deemed Passed --Don't have the courage to vote?????

REGARDLESS of the Bill--- just what do you think of these tactics?

Bush started it .... na..nee..na..nee..na..na!!!

(Thought I'd get that out of the way now)

dback
03-19-2010, 08:31 PM
Gawd.....I couldn't reply fast enough to beat 'Cliffy'

dnf777
03-19-2010, 08:37 PM
More shirking responsibility. Just as I expected. I don't blame you though. I want forget those years just as badly as you do! Unfortunately, we have to fix them, before we can forget them.

And let's see, if Obama really screws things up, how long does he have to accept responsibility? Until the day he leaves office, then none of it's his fault? Yeah, right!

Word for the day: Hypocrisy!

YardleyLabs
03-19-2010, 08:38 PM
Actually the same approach has been used for decades. It's about time the Democrats attempt to pass the bill on an up or down vote. If it loses, move on. If it wins I think we will be better off. I see the approach being used as a straightforward way of passing the bill while making sure that the amendments that make it more palatable must be adopted by the Senate for the whole thing to become law.The rules of the Senate and House are arcane and include many layers. Those rules are the sole purview of each house and are not subject to judicial review based on the Constitution and related court decisions. Ultimately it comes down to a majority vote. The rules allow a minority to delay action, but not stop it completely if the majority is determined. In a representative democracy, that seems appropriate.

J Hoggatt
03-19-2010, 08:51 PM
Actually the same approach has been used for decades. It's about time the Democrats attempt to pass the bill on an up or down vote. If it loses, move on. If it wins I think we will be better off. I see the approach being used as a straightforward way of passing the bill while making sure that the amendments that make it more palatable must be adopted by the Senate for the whole thing to become law.The rules of the Senate and House are arcane and include many layers. Those rules are the sole purview of each house and are not subject to judicial review based on the Constitution and related court decisions. Ultimately it comes down to a majority vote. The rules allow a minority to delay action, but not stop it completely if the majority is determined. In a representative democracy, that seems appropriate.

"When the righteous are surrounded the unrighteous, Justice become perverted" -- look it up.

OMG- We are talking about 1/6 of the Nations Economy - and you "justify" this by you comments above.......... OK.... the "process" has only been used for minor items NOT HUGE shift in our Social and Economic future........ I really hope you are right, because if you are wrong --- what price do we pay........ our future- that's it.......

BUSH - Bashing comments-- (simple minds are easily amused- LOL) please - that argument was OLD a year ago........

Can't wait until NOV. -
Did you Dem's forget about Kennedy's Senate Seat Election already.......

I am for some Health Care Reform -- but not this bill -- that is the polls that are 60/70 % polls--- please -(get better arguments).

PLUS the constitution doesn't guarantee "happiness" on the pursuit of it.... We have to WORK to pursue it...... no guarantees...... if you ever thought we had a Welfare State before -- Wait about 4 more years.... FREE MONEY - Obama MONEY - "it's free"........

dback
03-19-2010, 08:54 PM
More shirking responsibility. Just as I expected. I don't blame you though. I want forget those years just as badly as you do! Unfortunately, we have to fix them, before we can forget them.

And let's see, if Obama really screws things up, how long does he have to accept responsibility? Until the day he leaves office, then none of it's his fault? Yeah, right!

Word for the day: Hypocrisy!

I would like you to point out a single individual on this board that was happy with everything Bush and any of the given Congresses he had did. Anyone!!!! You and a couple of others here can't seem to grasp that concept. I don't want to forget any of it....the parts that were done wrong especially. Your current 'sweetheart' ran on a platform of 'no backroom deals', 'no buying votes', 'open discussion', 'no "questionable" procedures', 'no "funny" math' etc., etc.........."CHANGE"....remember that???? No business as usual in DC...... You're right, HYPOCRISY is the word of the day. Your defense of the Dems ... in any form leaves it stamped on your forehead.

YardleyLabs
03-19-2010, 08:59 PM
"When the righteous are surrounded the unrighteous, Justice become perverted" -- look it up.

OMG- We are talking about 1/6 of the Nations Economy - and you "justify" this by you comments above.......... OK.... the "process" has only been used for minor items NOT HUGE shift in our Social and Economic future........ I really hope you are right, because if you are wrong --- what price do we pay........ our future- that's it.......

BUSH - Bashing comments-- (simple minds are easily amused- LOL) please - that argument was OLD a year ago........

Can't wait until NOV. -
Did you Dem's forget about Kennedy's Senate Seat Election already.......

I am for some Health Care Reform -- but not this bill -- that is the polls that are 60/70 % polls--- please -(get better arguments).

PLUS the constitution doesn't guarantee "happiness" on the pursuit of it.... We have to WORK to pursue it...... no guarantees...... if you ever thought we had a Welfare State before -- Wait about 4 more years.... FREE MONEY - Obama MONEY - "it's free"........
Of course it's been used for huge items. The Bush tax cuts were passed through reconciliation, creating a $2 trillion deficit. The Medicare Prescription program was passed through reconciliation with $600 billion - $1 trillion in unfunded costs. Welfare reform was passed through reconciliation. And no matter how you cut it, very little of the health care segment of the economy is affected significantly by passage. It makes a neat slogan but has few roots in reality.

Buzz
03-19-2010, 08:59 PM
It is amusing to see how angry you all get when the shoe gets put on the other foot.

Buzz
03-19-2010, 09:00 PM
"When the righteous are surrounded the unrighteous, Justice become perverted" -- look it up.

OMG- We are talking about 1/6 of the Nations Economy - and you "justify" this by you comments above.......... OK.... the "process" has only been used for minor items NOT HUGE shift in our Social and Economic future........ I really hope you are right, because if you are wrong --- what price do we pay........ our future- that's it.......

BUSH - Bashing comments-- (simple minds are easily amused- LOL) please - that argument was OLD a year ago........

Can't wait until NOV. -
Did you Dem's forget about Kennedy's Senate Seat Election already.......

I am for some Health Care Reform -- but not this bill -- that is the polls that are 60/70 % polls--- please -(get better arguments).




PLUS the constitution doesn't guarantee "happiness" on the pursuit of it.... We have to WORK to pursue it...... no guarantees...... if you ever thought we had a Welfare State before -- Wait about 4 more years.... FREE MONEY - Obama MONEY - "it's free"........


I could have heard every bit of that just spending about 30 minutes in front of Fox News. Let's play talking points bingo.


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5406/bingop.jpg

J Hoggatt
03-19-2010, 09:22 PM
I could have heard every bit of that just spending about 30 minutes in front of Fox News. Let's play talking points bingo.


http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5406/bingop.jpg

BUZZ:
MAYBE you should..........

Yardleylabs:
You have given me some homework to do...
Seriously - I appreciate it.....I will look into the "facts" you are providing... THANKS-

For one- I am willing to learn and not afraid of being incorrect/wrong......

J Hoggatt
03-19-2010, 09:28 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_%28United_States_Congress%29

Reconciliation ---for easy reference.....


Yardley Labs ---

"DEEMED PASSED" do you know how often this one has been used?????? NO VOTE?

Buzz
03-19-2010, 09:40 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_%28United_States_Congress%29

Reconciliation ---for easy reference.....


Yardley Labs ---

"DEEMED PASSED" do you know how often this one has been used?????? NO VOTE?

I don't have a source, but recently I heard Michelle Bachman say that Hastert could have never gotten away with using it. Yesterday I heard on the radio that Hastert had used the tactic over 100 times. What it really amounts to is the house voting on two bills at once. They vote on the bill along the changes they want to make to it all in one package. Then it gets sent back to the senate.

Buzz
03-19-2010, 09:45 PM
Ok, I haven't read it too closely, but here is a source:

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/13/self-executing-rule/

J Hoggatt
03-19-2010, 10:01 PM
Ok, I haven't read it too closely, but here is a source:

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/13/self-executing-rule/

Buzz---- Did you read this????? Headline "BENDING THE RULES".......

the premise:
Well - it's been done before......?

That is kind of like:

"Well Mom--- all the other kids were doing it".
or
"It's not illegal unless you get caught"

If that is the argument - well we are in a sad state of affairs -- and NOT what Obama promised - "HOPE and Change" no more politics are usual. Everything on C-Span - and Remember I am from the "Cornhusker Kick-back state" --Thanks Ben Nelson - NOT!!!

PS> - I will be financially supporting - the most I can - Whom ever runs against him......

One last Q:

Why is the clock ticking - Why in such a rush? hmm----why not a robust debate?
WHY shouldn't they stand up and vote and be counted.

Buzz
03-19-2010, 10:40 PM
Buzz---- Did you read this????? Headline
Why is the clock ticking - Why in such a rush? hmm----why not a robust debate?

WHY shouldn't they stand up and vote and be counted.

Only enough to gather that the guy doing the analysis wasn't thrilled with the procedure and to find the numbers that I wanted to verify.

Obama promised change and I thought he was FOS. But apparently a lot of people bought it.

I am trying to find the definition of a robust debate. I guess a year isn't enough, so how long should it go? The truth is, the longer the debate goes, the uglier the process gets, and the more contaminated with deals the legislation appears to get.

I saw David Frum on TV last night. He was a proponent at the beginning for the Republicans cooperate and work with Democrats on HCR. His theory was that in a cooperative environment Republicans may be able to leave a fair imprint on the end product. As it stands, Republicans opted to go for total defeat of Obama, and in the process largely shut themselves out on one of the most far reaching pieces of legislation ever passed (assuming it does pass).

zeus3925
03-19-2010, 10:56 PM
Given from the outset that the Republicans were going to fight any bill that had a Democratic label on, I am ticked that the Dems pussy footed so long trying to build a consensus. Consensus and compromise are nice if you can do it, but when the opposition is obstructionist, it's "Hop in or get out of the road. I am putting it in 4 wheel drive and I'm going". The Dems had the power to push a moderate bill through. They squandered it trying to satisfy everybody especially the ultra Libs. Maybe they should read some Machiavelli.

I don't see the Republicans as being at all sincere. If it wasn't health care then it would be something else. There isn't a statesman among them. They are just laying logs on the rails hoping something will fall out of the boxcar. They are acting out of anger that they lost the last election. They are not over it, yet.

dixidawg
03-19-2010, 11:04 PM
Trying to build a consensus? With who? They couldn't even get a consensus among the Democrats!

dback
03-19-2010, 11:16 PM
Given from the outset that the Republicans were going to fight any bill that had a Democratic label on, I am ticked that the Dems pussy footed so long trying to build a consensus. Consensus and compromise are nice if you can do it, but when the opposition is obstructionist, it's "Hop in or get out of the road. I am putting it in 4 wheel drive and I'm going". The Dems had the power to push a moderate bill through. They squandered it trying to satisfy everybody especially the ultra Libs. Maybe they should read some Machiavelli.

I don't see the Republicans as being at all sincere. If it wasn't health care then it would be something else. There isn't a statesman among them. They are just laying logs on the rails hoping something will fall out of the boxcar. They are acting out of anger that they lost the last election. They are not over it, yet.

Yardley.....maybe you could step in and stop your two compatriots from making any bigger fools of themselves. "Consensus and compromise"?????? you must be kidding......not with the Republicans! Repubs weren't invited to any level of input in this thing until the 'Pony Show' a couple weeks ago. Hell....the Dems couldn't get "consensus and compromise" among themselves....Don't you remember "Super Majority" or has this rough winter and slurping down 'snow cones' caused permanent "brain freeze" with you two?

M&K's Retrievers
03-20-2010, 12:28 AM
...but I've seen support numbers in the upper 60s to low 70s for this bill.

Where was this poll taken? Pelosi's staff? Links please

M&K's Retrievers
03-20-2010, 12:34 AM
.

......if Obama really screws things up......
Hypocrisy!

If ???? President Peter Principle may just be the first black president to resign.

dnf777
03-20-2010, 08:05 AM
I would like you to point out a single individual on this board that was happy with everything Bush and any of the given Congresses he had did. Anyone!!!! You and a couple of others here can't seem to grasp that concept. I don't want to forget any of it....the parts that were done wrong especially. Your current 'sweetheart' ran on a platform of 'no backroom deals', 'no buying votes', 'open discussion', 'no "questionable" procedures', 'no "funny" math' etc., etc.........."CHANGE"....remember that???? No business as usual in DC...... You're right, HYPOCRISY is the word of the day. Your defense of the Dems ... in any form leaves it stamped on your forehead.

And likewise, I'd like to see you point out where Obama is my "sweetheart". I can't get in the minds of others, rather just go by what I see posted here. All I've seen lately is many attacks on Obama for the EXACT same things Bush and his cronies did for the last 8 years.

A few people are so very bothered by the fact that there are independant voters out there. In fact, I've been told more times than I can count: who I voted for (incorrectly), what my beliefs are, etc... It must be the old Bushism...you either with me or against me, mentality. Its black and white thinking. Something most grow out of somewhere in their teen years, and begin to see much of the world is in the gray zone. Life doesn't have many simple answers. For the crime of looking at issues from different angles, and going so far as trying to see someone else's points, you get labeled a flaming liberal and attacked. Have at it.

I respect all others points of view, except when they become violent or trample the rights of others. (flying planes into buildings, clubbing gays to death because they're gay, shooting doctors in the head in church)

zeus3925
03-20-2010, 08:07 AM
Dback -- Read a little closer. I am ticked at the Dems for playing kumbiya with the Republicans. They should have gotten everyone on their side lined up, then introduced the bill. Let the Republicans whine and groan. The Democrats owned the hammer in both houses and they could have and should have got her done.

If the Republicans were serious about participation in forming a bill they would have sat down with ex-Senator Dave Durenberger, who is arguably the Republicans' best man on health care.

dnf777
03-20-2010, 08:09 AM
Where was this poll taken? Pelosi's staff? Links please

The latest poll by the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation found 46 percent of Americans support the healthcare bill and 42 percent oppose it.


The latest numbers have evened out.

dnf777
03-20-2010, 08:10 AM
If ???? President Peter Principle may just be the first black president to resign.

What does his being black have to do with it? Have your forgotten Nixon, or is he above being placed in the same boat with Obama?

zeus3925
03-20-2010, 08:48 AM
If ???? President Peter Principle may just be the first black president to resign.

You are smokin' some good dope, there, M&K

Gerry Clinchy
03-20-2010, 09:24 AM
Should we maybe get back to debating the factual material?


Congressman John Fleming:

According to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO (http://fleming.congressnewsletter.net/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=2100055481.256024.145&gen=1&mailing_linkid=1465)), under the Senate version of Health Care Reform being negotiated, private health insurance premiums in the individual market would rise by as much as $2,100.

http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/107xx/doc10781/11-30-Premiums.pdf
This is dated Nov. 2009. Truthfully, I'm not entirely sure what the reconciliation amendments will change, but this is based on the Senate bill.



Policies would have to cover a specified set of services and to have an "actuarial value" of at least 60 percent (meaning that the plan would, on average, pay that share of the costs of providing covered services to a representative set of enrollees). In addition, insurers would have to accept all applicants during an annual open-enrollment period, and insurers could not limit coverage for preexisting medical conditions. Moreover, premiums could not vary to reflect differences in enrollees’ health or use of services and could vary on the basis of an enrollee’s age only to a limited degree


Is this possibly a key point? Of the 30 million uninsured, how many are in the young/healthy group v. how many in the pre-existing condition group?

If everyone pays the same premium (can't be different based on age or health), then it surely appears that those young/healthy people will pay a whole lot more than they would today. Actuarily, you cannot increase benefits & retain fiscal soundness without increasing the gross income to the funding.



Among other changes, health insurance plans: could not impose lifetime limits on the total amount of services covered; could rescind coverage only for certain reasons; would have to cover certain preventive services with no cost sharing; and would have to allow unmarried dependents to be covered under their parents’ policies up to age 26. Those changes would also apply to new coverage provided by large employers, including firms that "self-insure"—meaning that the firm, rather than an insurer, bears the financial risk of providing coverage.


I don't see why all co-pays are verbotten. Even $5 or $10 on a co-pay is manageable for almost every insured; and even small co-pays can go a long way to adding to fiscal soundness when multiplied by 30 million.


However, current policies that had been purchased in any of those markets or that were offered by self-insured firms would be exempt from all of those changes if they were maintained continuously—that is, policies held since the date of enactment of the legislation would be "grandfathered."


I can understand what about self-insured programs, but might not some employees withdraw from those plans if possible to get enhanced coverage in some other way? Wouldn't those employees be ticked off if their present plan fell short of the mandated plan. In that way, it could cost business more than they are paying now, depending on what plan the company presently offers. ... I think, but would not swear to the fact that I am interpreting this as the employees or the govt would interpret it.



and penalize certain employers if their workers received subsidies through the exchanges


So, if an employee gets a subsidy because its income is too low to pay for its premiums (grandfathered in?), the employer will be penalized. That seems to sort of negate the concept of being grand-fathered into the new plan.

Does that mean that if an employer is providing a very good plan, but the cost of the plan is high, the employer will then have to absorb more of the cost so that his employees don't need to be govt-subsidized.

If this wouldn't push the whole concept of health insurance to total govt control, given a little time, I'd be very surprised.



substantially reduce the growth of Medicare’s payment rates for most services (relative to the growth rates projected under current law);


But will Congress have the courage to reduce the Medicare reimbursement rates to do this? Don't necessarily believe that is the right thing to do, but seems to be a "requirement" of the available CBO evaluation of the Senate bill.



Each of those components of the legislation has the potential to affect the premiums that are charged for insurance, directly or indirectly; some would increase premiums, and others would decrease them.


The question would be whatt is the NET result of increases v. decreases?

This Adobe file is 29 pages. I only have quoted from the first 3 since I have to work today ... There is a table on page 29 that shows the %-ages of income that will be expended by various income ranges (for a single person & family of 4).

It would be interesting to see what %-age of income members of this forum now pay for health insurance v. the tables shown; and whether you would come out ahead or behind.

Addressing the question of why a lot of people may be Johnnie-come-lately to observing how Congress has exploited "hanky-panky" in the past: I think this very high-profile legislation has made the ugliness of the legislative process more visible. Awareness has been raised. Personal involvement has been increased. The fact that some of us were too uninvolved earlier is not, in and of itself, an indictment of integrity. Anyone who would choose to move from a state of ignorance to a state of more knowledge is good for a republic, not a bad thing.

And I do agree that I have seen no one on this forum who has defended every item of Bush's administration. It IS possible to discuss issues based on the process used (regardless of by whom), and whether the process as related to the issues was beneficial or not to the outcome. If the process was used to advance negative-impact, then we should take heed to assess the issue.

I don't think anybody, here or in Congress, believes that the US healthcare system is perfect. The disagreement lies in how to make it better. It will never be perfect. We can clearly see that universal health care in those countries that have it is not perfect either.

luvmylabs23139
03-20-2010, 10:16 AM
Bumma should be charged with treason!!!!! End of story!!!!!! He cares nothing for the constitution. He wants to ram his socialist crap down our throats no matter what.
Everyone knows he is truly a commie at heart!

OH now he is using his power to block protesters from getting near the capital.
Why should non income tax payers be allowed to dictate the sttealing of other peoples money?
\Pay income taxes then you can vote.
I stongly suport I revolt !!!!

M&K's Retrievers
03-20-2010, 10:23 AM
What does his being black have to do with it? Have your forgotten Nixon, or is he above being placed in the same boat with Obama?

DUH. First black pres because he can't be the first president to resign because of Nixon. Liberals seem to read bais into everything.

M&K's Retrievers
03-20-2010, 10:42 AM
The latest poll by the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation found 46 percent of Americans support the healthcare bill and 42 percent oppose it.


The latest numbers have evened out.

Lets see. A poll conducted by the oldest HMO in existence probably done in California. I'm sure that's fair. Anyway 46% is a far cry from the 60% to 70 % you cited. All other national polls have the opposed in the 56% range.

dback
03-20-2010, 01:12 PM
And likewise, I'd like to see you point out where Obama is my "sweetheart". I can't get in the minds of others, rather just go by what I see posted here. All I've seen lately is many attacks on Obama for the EXACT same things Bush and his cronies did for the last 8 years.You know Dave....you're probably a decent guy, you must have some smarts or you wouldn't be a Dr. and I'm guessing you're half-assed down to earth or you wouldn't be doing the dog/hunting thing. What I don't understand is how you can post 2100+ times in well under a year and have "for the last 8 years" in the text of 1/3 of those posts and questioned the actions of this administration less than a hand full of times total in all of those posts....and......want to convince all present that you are a "free thinker" when you yourself state that 'Bush and Obama are doing the EXACT same things??? I'm thinkin' it would make me want to grab my IV stand and sprint down the hall, bare ass in the breeze if I ever saw you coming at me with a scalpel.

A few people are so very bothered by the fact that there are independant voters out there. In fact, I've been told more times than I can count: who I voted for (incorrectly), what my beliefs are, etc... It must be the old Bushism...you either with me or against me, mentality. Its black and white thinking. Something most grow out of somewhere in their teen years, and begin to see much of the world is in the gray zone. Life doesn't have many simple answers. For the crime of looking at issues from different angles, and going so far as trying to see someone else's points, you get labeled a flaming liberal and attacked. Have at it.I doubt seriously that anyone is "bothered" by independents, I've never seen anyone say "who you voted for", Bushisms don't come into play and we all know that most issues are not "black or white". In your case however ..... it is difficult to hear what you're saying when your actions are so incredibly loud. You are "labeled a flaming liberal and attacked" for your proclivity to claim "looking at issues from different angles, and going so far as trying to see someone else's points" when in fact your posts speak to the contrary. If in fact your desire is to be viewed on this board as that "middle of the road, free thinking, level headed, Oracle.....you might try doing so more often.

I respect all others points of view, except when they become violent or trample the rights of others. (flying planes into buildings, clubbing gays to death because they're gay, shooting doctors in the head in church) ???? Are you suggesting Conservatives support any of this???

I'm headed to the Arizona Elk Society Banquet tonight....spend some money, drink a beer, visit friends and see if the 'Commissioners' Elk Tag' goes for more than last years $132,500.00 in this economy.

dback
03-20-2010, 01:24 PM
Dback -- Read a little closer. I am ticked at the Dems for playing kumbiya with the Republicans. They should have gotten everyone on their side lined up, then introduced the bill. Let the Republicans whine and groan. The Democrats owned the hammer in both houses and they could have and should have got her done.

If the Republicans were serious about participation in forming a bill they would have sat down with ex-Senator Dave Durenberger, who is arguably the Republicans' best man on health care.

Sarge...I didn't misread anything, I understand perfectly what you're saying. Obama pointed out quite clearly that they had the 'hammer' early on when he stated that "we won the election" and the Dems at no time played Kumbaya with Repubs in anyones book on healthcare. As was the case with Bush and is now the case with Obama...telling the minority to 'kiss my arse' and 'putting it in four wheel drive' is the fast track to polarizing a nation....even when the 'minority' is small.

luvmylabs23139
03-20-2010, 01:24 PM
BUMFACE lies and the sheep believe him, those are the facts.

zeus3925
03-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Sarge...I didn't misread anything, I understand perfectly what you're saying. Obama pointed out quite clearly that they had the 'hammer' early on when he stated that "we won the election" and the Dems at no time played Kumbaya with Repubs in anyones book on healthcare. As was the case with Bush and is now the case with Obama...telling the minority to 'kiss my arse' and 'putting it in four wheel drive' is the fast track to polarizing a nation....even when the 'minority' is small.

McConnell said almost before the inauguration crowd went home that he was going to make health care Obama's Waterloo. Is that a way to start off honest debate? And where was the great Republican proposal? They had the talent to submit an alternative and sell it. Instead they used the issue as a platform for bile and vile.

Than there was those blithering pieces of propaganda about death panels, rationing, and Steven Hawkings. That is not exactly a request to participate.

McConnell's attitude confirmed that polarized politics was going to rule. I wish the Dems would have rung up full speed ahead and "Damn the torpedos!"

BonMallari
03-20-2010, 03:07 PM
If this healthcare bill was "the right thing to do" , then why are Dems having such a tough time passing the darn thing...they have an OVERWHELMING majority in the House, far more the the magic number of 216..how many actual House republicans are there ..about 175 +/-...but yet they have to resort to the arm twisting and back room deal making, so who is actually holding up passing the bill...its every little congressperson that has their own little personal agenda, like the hispanic Congressman that was on every morning talk show touting how he made up his mind to vote yes after being promised that immigration reform ( access for undocumented aliens) would be included...remember the punchline to the joke " now that we have determined what profession you are, all we have to haggle is the price " :(

pat addis
03-20-2010, 04:55 PM
if you don't like the way things are going vote all the bums out and i mean all

dnf777
03-20-2010, 10:01 PM
I'm headed to the Arizona Elk Society Banquet tonight....spend some money, drink a beer, visit friends and see if the 'Commissioners' Elk Tag' goes for more than last years $132,500.00 in this economy.

Dback,
Don't worry about me coming at you with a scalpel. As a colo-rectal surgeon, I can help you retrieve your head however, whenever you're ready. ;) But really, I don't participate in forums to have my professionalism attacked, so if you don't mind, I'll let my patients let me know how I'm doing, not a distant stranger, thank you very much. I haven't felt the need to bring others' professions or trades into this fray, why do you?

You seem to make some good points, which I happen to disagree with, but really don't understand why you must resort to personal comments like that. Unlike a few other smoking babies, your response at least had substance, and for that, I thank you.

And as for worrying about how my political stance is viewed on this forum....believe it or not, I don't lose sleep over it! If pointing out inconsistencies and hypocrisy gets me labelled a liberal, so be it. If a lot of other level-headed Americans didn't agree with me, we wouldn't have Obama as president now, would we?

M&K's Retrievers
03-20-2010, 11:40 PM
DUH. First black pres because he can't be the first president to resign because of Nixon. Liberals seem to read bais into everything.

DNF, no comment again?

M&K's Retrievers
03-20-2010, 11:41 PM
Lets see. A poll conducted by the oldest HMO in existence probably done in California. I'm sure that's fair. Anyway 46% is a far cry from the 60% to 70 % you cited. All other national polls have the opposed in the 56% range.

And again...

dnf777
03-21-2010, 07:28 AM
Please don't engage in such childish tactics. I could list many instances where comments go unanswered by righties, but rather choose to believe folks have better things to do on a spring weekend, than spend hours seaching thread histories! Haven't you figured out yet that there is little gained, and much time wasted in playing "dueling sources" as I pointed out earlier? Whenever a right-wing-falsehood is discredited (Jeff being the reigning champion of this!) or non-right-wing points aptly supported, they go either unanswered or the sources unjustifiably attacked. Very useless chatter, IMO.

As for your comment of "black president", I assume we all know about Nixon's resignation, so I failed to see the necessity of noting Obama's race in your comments. I merely asked why you felt it necessary, and you gave your answer. I didn't accuse you of racism, just asked a question. YOU felt the need to levy accusations, not me.

Have a nice weekend.

YardleyLabs
03-21-2010, 09:01 AM
And again...
Actually, the Kaiser polls are conducted on a national basis and are among the most respected on this issue because they are the only ones that dig into specific feelings about specific policies. That helps then get beyond immediate emotional reaction to sound bytes from different sides. If you study polls completed over the last few years on national health insurance issues, it becomes apparent that the hundreds of millions that have been spent on advertising have served to confuse and aggravate people thoroughly. It will be interesting to see how people feel about coverage a few years following enactment. I suspect that the pattern will be similar to what it was with Medicare. Medicare was highly controversial when implemented. It has become consistently more popular over time and is actually one of the most popular governmental programs in existence. Few things made this clearer than the posters held by tea party and other anti health reform protesters that intermixed signs saying "stop socialism" with ones saying "don't touch my Medicare".

Sundown49 aka Otey B
03-21-2010, 10:59 AM
all of you that LOVE Medicare definately DON"T have it. IT SUCKS...more claims are denied by Medicare by an almost 3 to one margin. I found out the hard way personally when I just had a cancer removed at basically MY expence. Also the government is still giving the CROOKS at AIG money. They bilked my wife's retirement almost completely. $3400 is a very small part of almost 460000 she had in there. You folks that agree with the Libs aren't having to live the nightmare some of us older people are.

M&K's Retrievers
03-21-2010, 11:12 AM
Actually, the Kaiser polls are conducted on a national basis and are among the most respected on this issue because they are the only ones that dig into specific feelings about specific policies. That helps then get beyond immediate emotional reaction to sound bytes from different sides. If you study polls completed over the last few years on national health insurance issues, it becomes apparent that the hundreds of millions that have been spent on advertising have served to confuse and aggravate people thoroughly. It will be interesting to see how people feel about coverage a few years following enactment. I suspect that the pattern will be similar to what it was with Medicare. Medicare was highly controversial when implemented. It has become consistently more popular over time and is actually one of the most popular governmental programs in existence. Few things made this clearer than the posters held by tea party and other anti health reform protesters that intermixed signs saying "stop socialism" with ones saying "don't touch my Medicare".

If Kaiser is so respected, why then is it rarely quoted? If their numbers reflect the true feeling of Americans-46% for and 42% opposed (probably within the margin of error) with 56% wanting Congress to eithor start over or go on to other things-that the country would be better served to rethink this mess?

Keep that foot elevated regards,

YardleyLabs
03-21-2010, 11:25 AM
If Kaiser is so respected, why then is it rarely quoted? If their numbers reflect the true feeling of Americans-46% for and 42% opposed (probably within the margin of error) with 56% wanting Congress to eithor start over or go on to other things-that the country would be better served to rethink this mess?

Keep that foot elevated regards,
All polls depend on the questions you ask and how you ask them. When you ask someone how they feel about a particular "bill", what you hear depends more on what they have heard about the "bill" than about the actual contents of the bill. In the health care debate, there has been little to no correlation between the contents of proposals under consideration and the talking points used to attack them. When questions are posed about individual bill components, support immediately climbs to more than 60% for most core components. Support plummets when asked about an individual coverage mandate or about concerns on total cost. With respect to opinions on plan components, Kaiser findings have been highly consistent with Gallup and other surveys.

zeus3925
03-21-2010, 01:14 PM
To stir the pot a bit:
Franken vs. Axelrod
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/88761512.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aU1yDEmP:QMDCinchO7DU

Buzz
03-21-2010, 01:43 PM
All polls depend on the questions you ask and how you ask them. When you ask someone how they feel about a particular "bill", what you hear depends more on what they have heard about the "bill" than about the actual contents of the bill. In the health care debate, there has been little to no correlation between the contents of proposals under consideration and the talking points used to attack them.

There were some interesting responses to questions asked during yesterday's tea party protest in Washington DC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448

Marvin S
03-21-2010, 02:12 PM
There were some interesting responses to questions asked during yesterday's tea party protest in Washington DC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448

Done by "New Left Media", no bias there:rolleyes:. They interviewed approx. 10 people in a 9:51 video. I don't know if you've practiced partisan politics, I have, & even in a fairly cleansed atmosphere there is no shortage of nutcases, sort of like POTUS Place :). Lots of opinions, few answers that will work for the masses, most people only think of their OX.

YardleyLabs
03-21-2010, 02:15 PM
Done by "New Left Media", no bias there:rolleyes:. They interviewed approx. 10 people in a 9:51 video. I don't know if you've practiced partisan politics, I have, & even in a fairly cleansed atmosphere there is no shortage of nutcases, sort of like POTUS Place :). Lots of opinions, few answers that will work for the masses, most people only think of their OX.
So, you're saying that the people interviewed are unrepresentative nut jobs?;-)

M&K's Retrievers
03-21-2010, 02:25 PM
There were some interesting responses to questions asked during yesterday's tea party protest in Washington DC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448

Do you think if they interviewed 10 members of Congress, the answers would be any better?:rolleyes:

Marvin S
03-21-2010, 03:04 PM
So, you're saying that the people interviewed are unrepresentative nut jobs?;-)

I'm not posting anything other than is the source believeable & representative of a significant number of viewers.

But I would have liked to have been able to read what was on the back of that ladies T-shirt.

YardleyLabs
03-21-2010, 03:15 PM
I'm not posting anything other than is the source believeable & representative of a significant number of viewers.

But I would have liked to have been able to read what was on the back of that ladies T-shirt.
Glen Beck's Nine Principles:

1. America is good place, not perfect, but good.
2. I believe in God and He is the center of my life.
3. I must try to be a better, more honest person than I was yesterday.
4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority.
5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.
6. I have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and not a guarantee of equal results.
7. I work hard for what I have. I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable.
8. It is not un-American for me to disagree or share my personal opinion.
9. The government works for me. I do not answer to them. They answer to me.


By the way, I agree with almost all of these.

dnf777
03-21-2010, 06:35 PM
all of you that LOVE Medicare definately DON"T have it. IT SUCKS...more claims are denied by Medicare by an almost 3 to one margin. I found out the hard way personally when I just had a cancer removed at basically MY expence. Also the government is still giving the CROOKS at AIG money. They bilked my wife's retirement almost completely. $3400 is a very small part of almost 460000 she had in there. You folks that agree with the Libs aren't having to live the nightmare some of us older people are.

As someone who submits about 5 medicare claims per day, I can tell you that they pay more often and MUCH quicker than most private insurers, at least in this area. they don't pay as much, but its on time and reliable.

dback
03-22-2010, 12:03 AM
Dback,
Don't worry about me coming at you with a scalpel. As a colo-rectal surgeon, I can help you retrieve your head however, whenever you're ready. ;) But really, I don't participate in forums to have my professionalism attacked, so if you don't mind, I'll let my patients let me know how I'm doing, not a distant stranger, thank you very much. I haven't felt the need to bring others' professions or trades into this fray, why do you?

You seem to make some good points, which I happen to disagree with, but really don't understand why you must resort to personal comments like that. Unlike a few other smoking babies, your response at least had substance, and for that, I thank you.

And as for worrying about how my political stance is viewed on this forum....believe it or not, I don't lose sleep over it! If pointing out inconsistencies and hypocrisy gets me labelled a liberal, so be it. If a lot of other level-headed Americans didn't agree with me, we wouldn't have Obama as president now, would we?

Some on this site are aware of my highly respected and sought after lecturing abilities as one of the West Coasts' most esteemed Undocumented Psychologists with my particular field of interest being 'Antisocial Behavior'. Receiving both the 2007 'Award for Distinguished Scientific Applications of Undocumented Psychology' and the 2008 'Award for Distinguished Professional Contributions to Undocumented Applied Research', I'm sure you will agree, more than qualifies me to make the following diagnosis in regards to your neo-negative social behavior.

As a 'prepster', I have no doubt you keenly recall the inordinate number of wedgies administered to you by 'bluechippers'. While the actions of these rouge ruffians riding rather roughshod over their fellow classmate was regrettable, it produced an unsuspected, beneficial side effect in your particular case resulting in later life professional success. It is obvious to a highly trained individual such as myself that 'wedgies' sparked a keen, life long Colo-rectal fascination that lead to your later accomplishments. Your capitalistic desires guided you to surgery where you soon discovered that the vast majority of your 'head-retrieval' clientele were of the 'Left Leaning Loon' fringe and it became regrettably necessary as a professional to distance yourself from your (oft stated) staunch conservative/Republican roots. I am, however, having some difficultly pinpointing the exact source of your numerous bouts of self-rightous indignation. My greatest fear is that you may fail to match your 2182 posts in your second eight months leaving me with insufficient data to finalize my diagnosis. Please sir.....do carry on. ;-)


A further indicator that the economy is in the toilet.....the Commissioner's Tag sold for a mere $100,000.00 last night. With the snowpack we've received on the watershed.....it should have been double that. I bid at 50 G just to say I did it :-) :-)

Henry V
03-22-2010, 12:24 AM
IF you are a member of the Democratic Party --

Please tell me how proud you are of your party in the way it is abusing/using the legislative reconciliation to pass a health care bill that 55% of the American people are opposed to???????

Also--
Deemed Passed --Don't have the courage to vote?????

REGARDLESS of the Bill--- just what do you think of these tactics?
This post started this thread. Seems like they did vote. Do you feel better now?

dnf777
03-22-2010, 06:23 AM
Some on this site are aware of my highly respected and sought after lecturing abilities as one of the West Coasts' most esteemed Undocumented Psychologists with my particular field of interest being 'Antisocial Behavior'. Receiving both the 2007 'Award for Distinguished Scientific Applications of Undocumented Psychology' and the 2008 'Award for Distinguished Professional Contributions to Undocumented Applied Research', I'm sure you will agree, more than qualifies me to make the following diagnosis in regards to your neo-negative social behavior.

As a 'prepster', I have no doubt you keenly recall the inordinate number of wedgies administered to you by 'bluechippers'. While the actions of these rouge ruffians riding rather roughshod over their fellow classmate was regrettable, it produced an unsuspected, beneficial side effect in your particular case resulting in later life professional success. It is obvious to a highly trained individual such as myself that 'wedgies' sparked a keen, life long Colo-rectal fascination that lead to your later accomplishments. Your capitalistic desires guided you to surgery where you soon discovered that the vast majority of your 'head-retrieval' clientele were of the 'Left Leaning Loon' fringe and it became regrettably necessary as a professional to distance yourself from your (oft stated) staunch conservative/Republican roots. I am, however, having some difficultly pinpointing the exact source of your numerous bouts of self-rightous indignation. My greatest fear is that you may fail to match your 2182 posts in your second eight months leaving me with insufficient data to finalize my diagnosis. Please sir.....do carry on. ;-)


A further indicator that the economy is in the toilet.....the Commissioner's Tag sold for a mere $100,000.00 last night. With the snowpack we've received on the watershed.....it should have been double that. I bid at 50 G just to say I did it :-) :-)

Well, I've been in medicine since 1992, when I matriculated at the #1 rated U.S. medical school, (at that time) Jefferson Medical College. With dual board certification in general and colon and rectal surgery and 14 years of clinical practice, being published in peer-reviewed journals, I can honestly say I have NO IDEA what an "undocumented psychologist" is!, so pardon me if I disregard your gobbeldy-gook ramblings! Are you an illegal alien, as in "undocumented worker? Please excuse my ignorance of the para-medical fields. Do you sell "focus factor" and 5-hour energy drinks? I honestly don't know what an undocumented psych is? However, given the recent increase in anti-social behavior in this country, I'd say you should be busy keeping people from shooting up workplaces and flying airplanes into offices...rather than spewing quackery at people who dare exhibit the anti-social behavior or disagreeing with you politically!

I have mentioned my profession in past threads only if it somehow qualifies an opinion on a topic of health care, NEVER to attack or try to actually diagnose a fellow RTFer! (until in jest the comment of your proctocephaly)
If I need help, I'll talk to my barber, bartender, a friend, or even a certified phychologist. Please stick to violent tea-baggers who are over the edge now that health care passed!

dback
03-22-2010, 08:40 AM
I can honestly say I have NO IDEA what an "undocumented psychologist" is!

LOL.....You're WAAAAY too easy Dave! Wish I had JDoggers skills on this thing to bring out his "lighten up Francis" thingy-ma-jigger!!!!!!! :-) :-)

JDogger
03-22-2010, 09:36 AM
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/JDoggger/gdpit_com_41490242_65.gif

John and Dave play the PP game

dnf777
03-22-2010, 01:18 PM
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/JDoggger/gdpit_com_41490242_65.gif

John and Dave play the PP game

Thanks! I needed that!

Cold bucket of water regards,
dave

Al VanHoey
03-22-2010, 03:38 PM
Do I ever!!!!!