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pat addis
04-14-2010, 10:10 AM
did any one on here know that the un declared that ethonal was a crime aginst humanity? just one more reason to pull out of that nut house.

YardleyLabs
04-14-2010, 10:17 AM
did any one on here know that the un declared that ethonal was a crime aginst humanity? just one more reason to pull out of that nut house.
Are you referring to a new development, or the comment by one U.N. staffer in 2007 that diverting food crops to make ethanol was a crime against humanity because it would create starvation? The U.N., as far as I know, has never made any such statement. However, the impact of ethanol made from corn and soy on food prices has been a major reason why less emphasis is now placed on that option as a major energy source.

dnf777
04-14-2010, 02:43 PM
Are you referring to a new development, or the comment by one U.N. staffer in 2007 that diverting food crops to make ethanol was a crime against humanity because it would create starvation? The U.N., as far as I know, has never made any such statement. However, the impact of ethanol made from corn and soy on food prices has been a major reason why less emphasis is now placed on that option as a major energy source.

It also adversely affected the program that encourages farmers to allow for contiguous nesting grounds for waterfowl. (CRP??) There was an article in the Retriever Journal a year or so ago, sorry, don't have the link.

Maybe the UN was referring the the bumper sticker:

Ethanol--allowing ugly people to have sex for 2000 years

Hew
04-14-2010, 02:51 PM
Corn-based ethanol, as produced in the United States, is a crime against common sense.

Terry Britton
04-15-2010, 09:14 AM
Corn-based ethanol, as produced in the United States, is a crime against common sense.

What about when the corn goes to produce food, and the stalks go to produce ethanol?

On small residential / community scale production for local use, ethanol makes sense. For industrial production, many problems start popping up due the the law of diminishing returns in relation to transportation costs and costs associated with high demand of water which may be too scarce.

road kill
04-15-2010, 10:45 AM
did any one on here know that the un declared that ethonal was a crime aginst humanity? just one more reason to pull out of that nut house.
Why would anyone follow the UN's lead on anything?

Hell, the UN members don't!!:D




rk

Blackstone
04-15-2010, 06:45 PM
About the only thing ethanol affected was CRP. Because corn was selling for a higher price, farmers grew more. The last couple of years we had the same level of supplus corn as we did before the prices were high. Most of the uproar was just propaganda by those with an interest in discouraging any oil substitutes. Besides, the corn being used for ethanol was not food grade corn.

mjh345
04-15-2010, 06:52 PM
Corn-based ethanol, as produced in the United States, is a crime against common sense.

DING, DING, DING!!! We have a winner

wayne anderson
04-15-2010, 08:29 PM
Corn for ethanol not food grade corn?? What is "food grade" corn? All the federally subsidized ethanol program has done is to hurt livestock producers who paid the higher ethanol-induced prices for corn that they use in their feeds. No winners here, except for politicians who pushed for ethanol in their districts, and the companies (remain unnamed) who bought up defunct ethanol plants for pennies on the dollar after their owners went under. Can't blame the corn farmers, too bad it is hurting CRP and wildlife.

Blackstone
04-15-2010, 09:19 PM
Corn for ethanol not food grade corn?? What is "food grade" corn? All the federally subsidized ethanol program has done is to hurt livestock producers who paid the higher ethanol-induced prices for corn that they use in their feeds. No winners here, except for politicians who pushed for ethanol in their districts, and the companies (remain unnamed) who bought up defunct ethanol plants for pennies on the dollar after their owners went under. Can't blame the corn farmers, too bad it is hurting CRP and wildlife.

Food grade corn is what you would buy at the grocery store. Feed grade corn is what livestock producers use, and that is used in ethanol production. Also, there is a strain of corn produced specifically for ethanol.

Hew
04-16-2010, 01:06 AM
About the only thing ethanol affected was CRP. Because corn was selling for a higher price, farmers grew more. The last couple of years we had the same level of supplus corn as we did before the prices were high. Most of the uproar was just propaganda by those with an interest in discouraging any oil substitutes. Besides, the corn being used for ethanol was not food grade corn.

Exactly. The only people lining up to bash ethanol are slobbering shills for Big Oil....like those oil whores Greenpeace, Sierra Club, World Wildlife Fund and the UN. Here's a pretty nice graph explaining why ethanol pretty much sucks...but you might poopoo it since it comes from those fossil fuel-loving kooks at Mother Jones: http://www.aidg.org/component/option,com_jd-wp/Itemid,34/p,907/

Pretty much the entire world, from granola-eating tree rapers to cigar-chomping industrialists, have figured out that corn-based ethanol is a losing proposition. The only ones not getting the message are this White House, the one before it, a bi-partisan delegation of Congresscritters from corn producing states, and the folks at Archer Daniels.

Hew
04-16-2010, 01:15 AM
What about when the corn goes to produce food, and the stalks go to produce ethanol?
I read somewhere that 95% of all ethanol produced in the US comes from corn kernals. I have no idea if/how much of the stalk they can use. I would imagine if there was a reasonable way to use the stalk that they'd already be doing it. One of the biggest lunacies about corn-based ethanol is that it requires something like 70% more energy to produce the ethanol than the energy that the ethanol in-turn produces. I'd guess getting it out of the stalks instead of the kernals makes the net energy loss even more absurd.

Blackstone
04-16-2010, 01:44 AM
There is a real effort underway to perfect cellulosic ethanol. It will be made from switch grass and other woody, fiberous bio matter. It is said to burn more like gasoline. I think the problem is perfecting the fermination process. Plus, switch grass could prove to provide good nesting and cover for pheasants. I would be all for that!

subroc
04-16-2010, 06:22 AM
There is a real effort underway to perfect cellulosic ethanol. It will be made from switch grass and other woody, fiberous bio matter. It is said to burn more like gasoline. I think the problem is perfecting the fermination process...

It seems like so many of these green processes, it is always something.

dback
04-16-2010, 08:05 AM
About the only thing ethanol affected was CRP. Because corn was selling for a higher price, farmers grew more. The last couple of years we had the same level of supplus corn as we did before the prices were high. Most of the uproar was just propaganda by those with an interest in discouraging any oil substitutes. Besides, the corn being used for ethanol was not food grade corn.

That's why every dairy and feedlot in the US was sent scrambling for feed.....contract prices for wheat, barley, oats and sorghums all skyrocketed for ensilage production. Corn syrup prices over doubled from 16 cents to over 30 cents per. Didn't affect a thing.....well only every hamburger to T-bone to gallon of milk and every Coke to canned peach to dried cranberry world wide. (check your pantry labels to see what all 'corn syrup' is in....it will shock you)

Switch grass (IF ever made economically feasible) might be a better solution.

Unintended consequences regards,

Hoosier
04-16-2010, 11:37 AM
That's why every dairy and feedlot in the US was sent scrambling for feed.....contract prices for wheat, barley, oats and sorghums all skyrocketed for ensilage production. Corn syrup prices over doubled from 16 cents to over 30 cents per. Didn't affect a thing.....well only every hamburger to T-bone to gallon of milk and every Coke to canned peach to dried cranberry world wide. (check your pantry labels to see what all 'corn syrup' is in....it will shock you)

Switch grass (IF ever made economically feasible) might be a better solution.

Unintended consequences regards,

Let's not forget the amount of water it takes to produce.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22428/?a=f

Blackstone
04-16-2010, 12:15 PM
That's why every dairy and feedlot in the US was sent scrambling for feed.....contract prices for wheat, barley, oats and sorghums all skyrocketed for ensilage production. Corn syrup prices over doubled from 16 cents to over 30 cents per. Didn't affect a thing.....well only every hamburger to T-bone to gallon of milk and every Coke to canned peach to dried cranberry world wide. (check your pantry labels to see what all 'corn syrup' is in....it will shock you)

Switch grass (IF ever made economically feasible) might be a better solution.

Unintended consequences regards,

Dback,

You make an interesting point. The hype about ethanol production causing food prices to soar, was just that, hype. All grain prices went through the roof. Remember how expensive rice got, and there were even rice shortages. None of those other grains had anything to do with ethanol production. There was a huge demand for grains overseas, especially in China. Thatís why grain prices went so high. It was simple supply vs. demand. The rest was just an excuse for raising food prices.

I read where there is only about 5 cents worth corn in a box of corn flakes. So, even if corn prices had tripled, a box of corn flakes should have only gone up about 10 cents, but thatís not what happened. A box of corn flakes went up almost a dollar during that time. The fact is, food prices went up much more from soaring transportation costs than from the increase in corn prices. Most food and food products are shipped using semis that burn diesel fuel. Diesel fuel production and prices were not affected by ethanol production. No ethanol in diesel fuel. Now that corn prices have plummeted, did those food prices go down accordingly?

When ever there is money to be made, someone will figure a way to manipulate things for profit. A friend sent me a scathing report written by a think tank on how ethanol production was causing food prices to rise and causing food shortages. The report even quoted a USDA report saying how much corn use had increased as a result of ethanol production. I looked at the USDA report, and found the quote was taken completely out of context. While the USDA report did say corn use had increased, they also said corn production had increased to a level that allow us to have the same, if not slightly increased, levels of surplus corn that is normally sold out of the country. When I saw that, I dug into the think tank, and found they were funded by a major oil company, which I wonít name here. It was just propaganda.

Blackstone
04-17-2010, 06:10 PM
Let's not forget the amount of water it takes to produce.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22428/?a=f

That amount is debatable. It varies between 3 & 15 gallons, depending on who you talk to, to produce a gallon of ethanol in the plant. That doesnít include the water it takes to grow the corn. In some places corn is grown with only rain fall. The rain is going to fall regardless, so you canít count that. In some places irrigation is needed. If farmers werenít irrigating for corn, would they be irrigating for some other crop? Hard to say, so itís impossible to accurately include the water needed to grow corn. Also, in most cases, a good portion of the waste water can either be recycled and reused, or purified and returned to the environment.

However, it takes 1,851 gallons of water to refine a barrel of crude oil. One barrel of crude oil produces 19 gallons of gasoline and 10 gallons of diesel fuel. Based on that, it takes 97 gallons of water to produce a gallon of gasoline. Even if you combine gasoline and diesel, it takes 63 gallons of water to produce a gallon of "fuel." Using either calculation, thatís much more water than it takes to produce a gallon of ethanol.

pat addis
04-17-2010, 06:35 PM
That amount is debatable. It varies between 3 & 15 gallons, depending on who you talk to, to produce a gallon of ethanol in the plant. That doesnít include the water it takes to grow the corn. In some places corn is grown with only rain fall. The rain is going to fall regardless, so you canít count that. In some places irrigation is needed. If farmers werenít irrigating for corn, would they be irrigating for some other crop? Hard to say, so itís impossible to accurately include the water needed to grow corn. Also, in most cases, a good portion of the waste water can either be recycled and reused, or purified and returned to the environment.

However, it takes 1,851 gallons of water to refine a barrel of crude oil. One barrel of crude oil produces 19 gallons of gasoline and 10 gallons of diesel fuel. Based on that, it takes 97 gallons of water to produce a gallon of gasoline. Even if you combine gasoline and diesel, it takes 63 gallons of water to produce a gallon of "fuel." Using either calculation, thatís much more water than it takes to produce a gallon of ethanol.

well that might be true about the amount of water used but i have used e85 and i get about 25-40% less milage than with gas so figure that in

Blackstone
04-17-2010, 09:40 PM
well that might be true about the amount of water used but i have used e85 and i get about 25-40% less milage than with gas so figure that in

Itís true you donít get the same mpg performance from corn based E85 that you get from gasoline. A 20% loss in fuel economy is about the norm. I use it quite a bit, and thatís about what I see. However, you are still using 85% less gasoline for every gallon of E85 you use. We keep talking about energy independence, but no one is willing to make a personal sacrifice to do it. E85 is not a perfect solution, but at least itís a start.

KEITH L
04-17-2010, 09:56 PM
i own a grocery store so can speek in regards to price increases a box of cereal or other
products. the prices never changed due to ethanol in 2008 kraft, j@j, hershey and all others
decided to change all the packaging an ounce or two smaller. well before the ethanol hype due to lagging profits of there companies at the time. if you ever checked these corps.
they have had the last few years incredible profits best ever in there histories. in 2008 my cost rose on average 7% lead manely by dairy and cheese products. beef poultry and pork
havent changed in about 8 years now. beef in last few months and only your chuck portions
have seen a little increas. but 2009 inflation on cost of products down from 2008 to 5% and 2010 almost 4%. this is a nation wide price i can't speek for all grocery companies there are some that decided profit take due to there areas competition. i myself have lowered mine but may have left it up, if my competition would have stayed up. as for ethanol
i burn it don't see much advantage other than locally made u.s.a. product. most plants were built hoping it would be and answer to big profits some times you win some time you lose.. bigger the risk bigger the rewards but also bigger the fall...i make money today next week walmart may build and i"m broke thats the risk...

keith l.
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