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Henry V
04-15-2010, 11:31 PM
A funny thing happens when you look at the facts. Great to see all the tax protesters today live in a fact-free zone.

From the non-partisanhttp://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3151&emailView=1


Income taxes: A family of four in the exact middle of the income spectrum will pay only 4.6 percent of its income in federal income taxes this year, according to a new analysis by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center. This is the second-lowest percentage in the past 50 years.


Overall federal taxes: Middle-income households are paying overall federal taxes — which include income as well as payroll and excise taxes — at or near their lowest levels in decades, according to the latest data from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

For more interesting reading check out http://www.examiner.com/x-15870-Populist-Examiner~y2010m4d15-Americans-protesting-taxes-that-many-Americans-arent-paying
and
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/15/tax-day-2010-protesters-i_n_538556.html

Yes, clearly, we do live in Cuba now.;)

Privatizing NASA reinforced this even more.

Marvin S
04-15-2010, 11:48 PM
I do know this, We paid less this year, had something to do with our income being 42% less, & we know what to blame that on. Some really Bad Policy!!!!!!!!!! :shock: & we know who is in charge of that, a bunch of tax cheats :) .

subroc
04-16-2010, 12:30 AM
Assuming the article is true, in what way are any of the current policy makers responsible? It looks like it bottomed during the President George W. Bush administration and has started climbing now during the obama administration.

Your article appears to say that obama is raising taxes.

Or, are you trying to give credit, as a positive thing, to obama for policy that former President George W. Bush is responsible for?

So, you actually like President George W. Bush tax policy?

You can’t have it both ways…

Gerry Clinchy
04-16-2010, 08:38 AM
1) Was the "middle" of the income spectrum lower this year than 48 of those other 50 years? That would fit into Marvin's scenario. That also seems reasonable in view of the impact of those who lost their jobs in the past couple of years.

2) Is this based on the tax rates established under Bush; not yet reflecting the changes that will take place under Obama? I believe that is the case for capital gains tax.

captainjack
04-16-2010, 09:55 AM
I think most of the tax protesters aren't complaining about their current taxes, but rather the proposed tax increases and out of control spending.

I've never been to one of the Tea Party rallies, but I think that the move toward European socialism is of great concern to them as well. I know it is for me.


Regarding the taxes on the middle income families...

It has been reported that the Obama budget proposal will allow the Bush tax cuts to expire. This is only one area of tax increases that will affect middle income families.

Take a look at the illustrative scenarios at the end of the story...
http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/what-the-bush-tax-cut-means-for-you-14345/

Based on 2003 data with & without Bush tax cuts.
Scenario 3. Married with two kids under 17, $50,000 adjusted gross income
(median household income for 2003 was $43,318 according to us census bureau)

The tax liability went from $2,678 under the old law to $1,545 under the new law. A tax cut of $1,133 or 42.3%.

Letting the Bush tax cuts expire would mean a 42.3% increase in this family's federal taxes.

road kill
04-16-2010, 09:58 AM
A funny thing happens when you look at the facts. Great to see all the tax protesters today live in a fact-free zone.

From the non-partisanhttp://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3151&emailView=1





For more interesting reading check out http://www.examiner.com/x-15870-Populist-Examiner~y2010m4d15-Americans-protesting-taxes-that-many-Americans-arent-paying
and
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/15/tax-day-2010-protesters-i_n_538556.html

Yes, clearly, we do live in Cuba now.;)

Privatizing NASA reinforced this even more.


This post is as astonishing as it is perplexing.:confused:




rk

badbullgator
04-16-2010, 10:56 AM
This post is as astonishing as it is perplexing.:confused:




rk


well that is because he did not include a graph.

The point is that spending is out of control no matter what the tax rate. There is no way to continue with the spending and no increase taxes

luvmylabs23139
04-16-2010, 11:22 AM
Henry,
You leave out the frustration of middle income people that among other things do not have kids, mortgage pmi, student loans etc.
Here's a short list of middle class tax cuts that have never reduced my tax bill.
PMI
Child credit
Child care credit
interest on student loans.

UH, all I see is tax cuts for other people.
All of these should be eliminated!

ducknwork
04-16-2010, 12:26 PM
I think most of the tax protesters aren't complaining about their current taxes, but rather the proposed tax increases and out of control spending.

I've never been to one of the Tea Party rallies, but I think that the move toward European socialism is of great concern to them as well. I know it is for me.


Regarding the taxes on the middle income families...

It has been reported that the Obama budget proposal will allow the Bush tax cuts to expire. This is only one area of tax increases that will affect middle income families.

Take a look at the illustrative scenarios at the end of the story...
http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/what-the-bush-tax-cut-means-for-you-14345/

Based on 2003 data with & without Bush tax cuts.
Scenario 3. Married with two kids under 17, $50,000 adjusted gross income
(median household income for 2003 was $43,318 according to us census bureau)

The tax liability went from $2,678 under the old law to $1,545 under the new law. A tax cut of $1,133 or 42.3%.

Letting the Bush tax cuts expire would mean a 42.3% increase in this family's federal taxes.

Unless we reduce spending, it is not possible to continue with the taxes as low as they currently are. I don't see any spending reduction in the near future. Obama will have to let the cuts expire or cut spending. What do you think he is going to do?


Crap, I sound liberal again.:(

captainjack
04-16-2010, 02:03 PM
Unless we reduce spending, it is not possible to continue with the taxes as low as they currently are. I don't see any spending reduction in the near future. Obama will have to let the cuts expire or cut spending. What do you think he is going to do?


Crap, I sound liberal again.:(

Yea you do.
You know what I think he will do and I'm sure you can guess what I think he should do.

Uncle Bill
04-16-2010, 02:29 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


ENJOY IT WHILE YOU CAN, HENRY!

Oops, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to laugh at your pain, Henry...I know how much you enjoy paying those "taxes on the rich".

Please explain, however, how is it that your messiah can claim to "continue those tax breaks for the middle class", when your liberal constituancy ALWAYS claimed those Bush tax cuts were ONLY FOR THE RICH!...He never had any tax cuts for the "middle class".

No hypocrisy from the Bush haters eh?

UB

Eric Johnson
04-16-2010, 03:30 PM
I think there's a chance that the numbers are skewed. Do they contol for those who don't pay income tax? As the number of individuals who don't pay income tax goes up, the % of tax per capita will go down.

The tax protestors are protesting that. The tax protestors taxes are right where they've always been.

Eric

Sabireley
04-18-2010, 09:14 AM
Tax policy is all about buying votes or social engineering to mould the behavior of the electorate. Tax cuts buy votes as does increasing taxes on "evil" groups and items (corporations, rich, smokers, gas guzzlers, luxury item buyers). The tax protests are also about tax fairness. The problem with fair taxation is that it removes a powerful tool to buy votes. The government will be left with having to craft legislation that stands on merit to pass.

sinner
04-18-2010, 12:45 PM
A protester of the TEA Party protest in Pueblo, co last week
This is just for fun
TEA PARTY =
TAX EVADING ANGLO

Henry V
04-19-2010, 12:18 AM
I do know this, We paid less this year, had something to do with our income being 42% less, & we know what to blame that on. Some really Bad Policy!!!!!!!!!! :shock: & we know who is in charge of that, a bunch of tax cheats :) .
What policies specifically?. All the tax cuts in the stimulus bill?

Please note the data cited uses the tax rate and compares apples to apples over the years. The rate is near an all time low across all middle income levels.

Henry V
04-19-2010, 12:36 AM
Assuming the article is true, in what way are any of the current policy makers responsible? It looks like it bottomed during the President George W. Bush administration and has started climbing now during the obama administration.

Your article appears to say that obama is raising taxes.

Or, are you trying to give credit, as a positive thing, to obama for policy that former President George W. Bush is responsible for?

So, you actually like President George W. Bush tax policy?

You can’t have it both ways…
If you have any data to prove the article untrue, please post.
My point was that there were many people at the tax day rallys proclaiming how taxes have gone way up in the last year and this is patently false. The people claiming that taxes have gone way up want to have it both ways.
Bush's tax policies would have been just fine if he, along with a repub majority in both houses for 6 years, would have cut spending and not run up huge deficits. You know, maybe the largest entitlement in our recent history, the medicare drug program, should have been paid for, or maybe the wars should have been put in the budget and paid for. Just crazy ideas, I know.

Henry V
04-19-2010, 12:41 AM
1) Was the "middle" of the income spectrum lower this year than 48 of those other 50 years? That would fit into Marvin's scenario. That also seems reasonable in view of the impact of those who lost their jobs in the past couple of years.

2) Is this based on the tax rates established under Bush; not yet reflecting the changes that will take place under Obama? I believe that is the case for capital gains tax.
Gerry, this is only about income taxes. From the article
In 2000, the year before the 2001 tax cut that President Bush and Congress enacted, the median-income family of four paid 8.0 percent of its income in individual income taxes, according to Tax Policy Center estimates — a smaller share than in any year since 1967 (except for 1998 and 1999). [1] The Bush tax cuts further reduced middle-income tax obligations.

This year, the Making Work Pay tax credit, which President Obama and Congress enacted as part of the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, is providing a credit of $800 to married joint filers ($400 to single filers). A median-income family with two children thus will receive an $800 tax cut in the return it files this year.

With the new tax cut, the median family’s federal income taxes will equal just 4.6 percent of its income in 2009. That is lower than in any year since 1955 (the first year for which these data are available) except for 2008, when another stimulus-related tax cut was in effect.

The 4.6 percent effective tax rate — the percentage of its income that a family pays in taxes — is well below the 15 percent marginal tax rate that a family of four in the exact middle of the income spectrum faces. Typically, such a family reduces its effective tax rate by taking the standard deduction (or, in some cases, itemized deductions), personal exemptions, and tax credits such as the child tax credit. The Making Work Pay tax credit further reduces that family’s effective tax rate.

Henry V
04-19-2010, 01:33 AM
My answers in bold italics.

I think most of the tax protesters aren't complaining about their current taxes, but rather the proposed tax increases and out of control spending. I watched a number of clips of the rallies. There was a lot of complaining about current taxes too.

I've never been to one of the Tea Party rallies, but I think that the move toward European socialism is of great concern to them as well. I know it is for me. Please list evidence that we are moving toward European socialism

Regarding the taxes on the middle income families...

It has been reported that the Obama budget proposal will allow the Bush tax cuts to expire. This is only one area of tax increases that will affect middle income families.
Take a look at the illustrative scenarios at the end of the story...
http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/what-the-bush-tax-cut-means-for-you-14345/

Based on 2003 data with & without Bush tax cuts.
Scenario 3. Married with two kids under 17, $50,000 adjusted gross income
(median household income for 2003 was $43,318 according to us census bureau)

The tax liability went from $2,678 under the old law to $1,545 under the new law. A tax cut of $1,133 or 42.3%.

Letting the Bush tax cuts expire would mean a 42.3% increase in this family's federal taxes.

Yes, Bush's two-rounds of tax cuts fully supported by repub majorities are set to expire in 2010 because original CBO projections indicated that they would substantially increase the deficit. Since the tax cuts were projected to increas the deficit, the Byrd Rule, was in play at the time. This is a Senate rule that amends the Congressional Budget Act to allow Senators to block a piece of legislation if it is projected to significantly increase the federal deficit beyond a ten-year term. If the Bush tax cuts did not have an end date they never would have passed. If you advocate for their continuation one could argue that you advocate for larger deficits and also a bait and switch. Perhaps federal income taxes need to increase a bit to 5% (20+% increase) to pay for the wars or the medicare prescription drug program?The Bush tax cuts are a primary reason for the deficits left to President Obama (see http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=966). They also shifted a larger percentage of the tax burden to the middle class http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61178-2004Aug12.html

Henry V
04-19-2010, 01:52 AM
Henry,
You leave out the frustration of middle income people that among other things do not have kids, mortgage pmi, student loans etc.
Here's a short list of middle class tax cuts that have never reduced my tax bill.
PMI
Child credit
Child care credit
interest on student loans.

UH, all I see is tax cuts for other people.
All of these should be eliminated!
Why stop there? Add the home mortgage interest credit too and simplify everything. Why should the federal government have any policies that create an incentive to borrow money from banks?

Sabireley
04-19-2010, 08:35 AM
Why stop there? Add the home mortgage interest credit too and simplify everything. Why should the federal government have any policies that create an incentive to borrow money from banks?

I agree. On the other side, why should renters be punished financially for not financing a home. If home owners can write off home mortgage interest, why not let renters write of rental payments?

The tax code is all government meddling to buy votes or for social engineering.

Steve

Gerry Clinchy
04-19-2010, 08:56 AM
That is lower than in any year since 1955 (the first year for which these data are available) except for 2008, when another stimulus-related tax cut was in effect.

So, the effective tax rate was lower in 2008. When the Bush tax cuts expire, taxes will go up.

Interesting way to raise taxes ... you don't have to vote to raise those taxes; just do nothing & let the lower rates expire. Might expect voters to scream when they file their 2011 taxes.

Also, the tax credit for purchasing a home is still in effect in 2010 tax year. (People must have an agreement by 4/30 & close by 6/30). There is a lot of home purchasing activity with that $8000 incentive due to expire soon.


providing a credit of $800 to married joint filers ($400 to single filers). A median-income family with two children thus will receive an $800 tax cut in the return it files this year.

The "up" side of that is that this means those who get the credit actually paid taxes :-)

Hoosier
04-19-2010, 09:01 AM
A protester of the TEA Party protest in Pueblo, co last week
This is just for fun
TEA PARTY =
TAX EVADING ANGLO

That's as racist as saying "Welfare leeching _______" insert your favorite minority. Hope your white, if not the PC police should be all over you.

luvmylabs23139
04-20-2010, 05:53 PM
Why stop there? Add the home mortgage interest credit too and simplify everything. Why should the federal government have any policies that create an incentive to borrow money from banks?

Let's go even further. Get rid of Fannie and Freddie! Get the gov't out of backing home mortgages. Let's get back to the old 20% down payment.

ducknwork
04-20-2010, 09:31 PM
Let's go even further. Get rid of Fannie and Freddie! Get the gov't out of backing home mortgages. Let's get back to the old 20% down payment.

But then everyone couldn't afford to buy their own home! Horrors!

luvmylabs23139
04-21-2010, 03:20 PM
But then everyone couldn't afford to buy their own home! Horrors!


Oh the horror, everyone would have to SAVE for a house.

Buzz
04-21-2010, 03:55 PM
But then everyone couldn't afford to buy their own home! Horrors!

That would certainly go against the idea of Bush's "ownership society!"

ducknwork
04-21-2010, 05:19 PM
Oh the horror, everyone would have to SAVE for a house.

That's just not fair. I'm writing my congressman right now. I think we need legislation that makes it easier for everyone to own their own home. Maybe the govt should bestow a home upon everyone on their 18th birthday.