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M&K's Retrievers
04-30-2010, 12:17 PM
Now after all of the Dems belly aching about Arizona's new law about illegals, they want to enact a law requiring workers to carry a national ID card which includes your finger print. I guess later it could include your credit and medical history, voting record. The skies the limit.

www.thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrates-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card


1984 regards...

YardleyLabs
04-30-2010, 12:34 PM
Now after all of the Dems belly aching about Arizona's new law about illegals, they want to enact a law requiring workers to carry a national ID card which includes your finger print. I guess later it could include your credit and medical history, voting record. The skies the limit.

www.thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrates-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card (http://www.thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrates-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card)


1984 regards...
What's interesting is that such a requirement is almost implicit in the Arizona law. Without an agreed on identification of citizens, how can you punish someone for failing to have papers in their possession showing they are not citizens. If I am stopped, I simply say that I am a citizen and do not possess any identification. Courts have routinely held that failure to produce physical evidence of identity is not grounds for arrest in and of itself. I suspect that we are coming to a point in our history when the absence of a universal method of identification may be needed.

M&K's Retrievers
04-30-2010, 12:37 PM
What's interesting is that such a requirement is almost implicit in the Arizona law. Without an agreed on identification of citizens, how can you punish someone for failing to have papers in their possession showing they are not citizens. If I am stopped, I simply say that I am a citizen and do not possess any identification. Courts have routinely held that failure to produce physical evidence of identity is not grounds for arrest in and of itself. I suspect that we are coming to a point in our history when the absence of a universal method of identification may be needed.

I assume you have a drivers license.

YardleyLabs
04-30-2010, 12:39 PM
I assume you have a drivers license.
I do, but I am not required to produce it unless I am operating a vehicle.

Buzz
04-30-2010, 12:43 PM
A driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

Interesting, we want the immigration issue solved, for the love of Pete, don't make me carry a national ID card.

666 regards...

WRL
04-30-2010, 01:23 PM
A driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

Interesting, we want the immigration issue solved, for the love of Pete, don't make me carry a national ID card.

666 regards...

It could be.

In WA we have what is called "an enhanced Driver's License". It acts like a passport for Canada and Mexico.

WRL

Henry V
04-30-2010, 01:35 PM
A driver's license is not proof of citizenship.

Interesting, we want the immigration issue solved, for the love of Pete, don't make me carry a national ID card.

666 regards...

Interesting indeed. Even more interesting is that the Arizona law gives the state government far reaching powers over citizens and infringes on constitutional rights but the smaller government, "keep government out", "we live in Cuba now" types are all for it.

None of this is going to solve the illegal immigration problem. The Bush proposal was a realistic approach but, of course, that is not acceptable to the kick them all out crowd.

huntinman
04-30-2010, 01:42 PM
The gate-crashers at the White House did not show their papers and the White House social secretary lost her job.

The Dem congressmen at some of the Town Halls made the people showing up show their "papers".

Seems that sometimes papers are good and sometimes not, depending on your agenda.

Hoosier
04-30-2010, 02:00 PM
We have let so many illegal (criminal) immigrants here now, that I don't believe we have a choice, if we want to deal with it, but to get some sort of national ID, microchip, stamped serial number on our forehead, or something like that. The problem is, we'll end up with a microchip in our asses, and all the illegal will still be here. Neither party wants to do anything about them, and we all know it. If they were going to ship em back they already would have done something.

M&K's Retrievers
04-30-2010, 09:18 PM
[QUOTE=Henry V;607960]Interesting indeed. Even more interesting is that the Arizona law gives the state government far reaching powers over citizens and infringes on constitutional.... QUOTE]

Show me where please

Marvin S
04-30-2010, 10:22 PM
Today go to Home Depot to pick up a canister of bungee cords. Do the transaction, have to show ID to match CC. What's so hard about that, just shows where we are as a country. Asked the cashier if they have problems & she said some with people using spouse's card.

BonMallari
04-30-2010, 11:00 PM
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t319/bonmallari/Welcome_to_Arizona.jpg

gmhr1
04-30-2010, 11:17 PM
Today go to Home Depot to pick up a canister of bungee cords. Do the transaction, have to show ID to match CC. What's so hard about that, just shows where we are as a country. Asked the cashier if they have problems & she said some with people using spouse's card.

Dont you feel that your rights were violated by them asking for ID How dare they!

Marvin S
04-30-2010, 11:35 PM
Dont you feel that your rights were violated by them asking for ID How dare they!

Actually, I feel my rights to be here are being upheld :cool:.

BonMallari
05-01-2010, 12:24 AM
Dont you feel that your rights were violated by them asking for ID How dare they!


I purposely do not sign the back of my credit cards so they will ask for I.D., having been a victim of identity theft, it protects both the consumer and the merchant

dnf777
05-01-2010, 07:39 AM
Bon, me either. A smart crook will overcome this, but dumb ones won't. I had a card once (back when in was Citicorp) that actually encouraged me NOT to sign the card's sig. block for that reason. Then the cashier has to look at your ID and can compare signatures. MOst don't bother, I know, but some do.

JJaxon
05-01-2010, 08:01 AM
I write "Ask for I.D." on all my cards. Just an easy way to push the issue to merchants for me.

dnf777
05-01-2010, 11:26 AM
When I lived in Louisiana, a young enterprising check thief stole another woman's checkbook and began buying rap CDs ($200 worth) at a local store. The clerk figured it was funny that the young black man was named "Lou-anne", and politely asked that he write his address and phone number on the check, processed the sale, and let him leave with his music.

I wonder if he ever figured out how the police arrived at his door 10 minutes later to arrest him?

choclab32
05-01-2010, 01:01 PM
Today go to Home Depot to pick up a canister of bungee cords. Do the transaction, have to show ID to match CC. What's so hard about that, just shows where we are as a country. Asked the cashier if they have problems & she said some with people using spouse's card.

THANK GOD !!! Get my card back from my wife LOL:razz:

Franco
05-01-2010, 05:02 PM
I was going to post this cartoon. I see it has been making the email rounds.:cool:



http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t319/bonmallari/Welcome_to_Arizona.jpg

T. Mac
05-01-2010, 07:00 PM
Sure hope they didn't do any racial profiling in their search for those responsible for the shooting of the AZ deputy that found them transporting bales of grass across the border.

T. Mac

BrianW
05-02-2010, 05:14 PM
I do, but I am not required to produce it unless I am operating a vehicle.

I take it that you never fly on an airline and have been asked for your DL or picture ID before boarding?
You've never used a check to try to buy something or cash one at a bank and been asked for your license so the number can be written on it? I'm sure you're old enough to buy alcohol or cigs but what if you were in your teens/early 20's?
There are many cases where folks are required to have ID to carry out their daily lives, where law enforcement personnel are not involved.

road kill
05-02-2010, 05:17 PM
I take it that you never fly on an airline and have been asked for your DL or picture ID before boarding?
You've never used a check to try to buy something or cash one at a bank and been asked for your license so the number can be written on it? I'm sure you're old enough to buy alcohol or cigs but what if you were in your teens/early 20's?
There are many cases where folks are required to have ID to carry out their daily lives, where law enforcement personnel are not involved.
Try renting a DVD at Blockbuster or whatever store is near you.......you need ID ( an operators/drivers license), of course you don't need that to vote!!:rolleyes:



rk

YardleyLabs
05-02-2010, 05:32 PM
I take it that you never fly on an airline and have been asked for your DL or picture ID before boarding?
You've never used a check to try to buy something or cash one at a bank and been asked for your license so the number can be written on it? I'm sure you're old enough to buy alcohol or cigs but what if you were in your teens/early 20's?
There are many cases where folks are required to have ID to carry out their daily lives, where law enforcement personnel are not involved.
Currently, requirements to produce an ID are transactional: If you want to drive, you must possess and display on request a valid driver's license. If you want to buy liquor, you must prove that you are of legal age. In any of these transactions, you may avoid producing identification by withdrawing from the transaction. Don't drive, don't buy liquor, etc. A police officer may ask you to identify yourself and you must comply. However, except for the Florida law described by HEW, I am not aware of requirements that you must provide a police officer written, official proof of identity. There is absolutely no national requirement that you prove citizenship to a law enforcement officer unless you are trying to enter the country. By contrast, aliens are required to carry and may be required to produce proof of status. My comment was explicit to the Arizona situation. A police officer demands that I produce proof of my immigration status. I reply that I am an American citizen. We do not have any official documents that a person is required to possess that officially prove citizenship. Many people do not possess a birth certificate. I have no idea if I still have a copy of my social security card. The last time I needed to produce it was more than 40 years ago. I have a passport, but very few citizens do. I have a driver's license which I obtained by producing a driver's license going all the way back to my first driver's license issued in Tennessee when I was 16. I didn't show any identification to get that, which was a good thing since I lived in Sicily at the time. One of the big problems with requirements for better documented driver's licenses is that many of those 50+ year old people simply do not possess the required documentation.

BonMallari
05-02-2010, 06:03 PM
you can argue all you want about your civil liberties being infringed and not having to prove that you are a US citizen, but we all have to face the facts that we live in a different world now..there is no telling who was responsible for the potential car bomb in NYC, but that should be a wake up call to everyone that there are crazy people out there that want to do harm to peace loving Americans..

To paraphrase a great saying : We're not out to embarass the best people in the world...we're just out to identify them

YardleyLabs
05-02-2010, 06:10 PM
Well, you've now posted this twice so I guess it didn't get the reaction you wanted the first time. Other than the fact that we allow foreign visitors freedom of speech, these are also a pretty good summary of US requirements. Do you actually think that Mexico can track down the location of foreign visitors? The last time I went there I flashed a voter registration card, which no one looked at, because I had forgotten my passport.:rolleyes:

YardleyLabs
05-02-2010, 06:23 PM
you can argue all you want about your civil liberties being infringed and not having to prove that you are a US citizen, but we all have to face the facts that we live in a different world now..there is no telling who was responsible for the potential car bomb in NYC, but that should be a wake up call to everyone that there are crazy people out there that want to do harm to peace loving Americans..

To paraphrase a great saying : We're not out to embarass the best people in the world...we're just out to identify them
I suspect the odds are good that the Times Sq. bomber may even turn out to be a somewhat less peace loving American. In the famous words of Jack Nicholson, we should post signs at every border that say "Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.":D

WRL
05-02-2010, 07:54 PM
Currently, requirements to produce an ID are transactional: If you want to drive, you must possess and display on request a valid driver's license. If you want to buy liquor, you must prove that you are of legal age. In any of these transactions, you may avoid producing identification by withdrawing from the transaction. Don't drive, don't buy liquor, etc. A police officer may ask you to identify yourself and you must comply. However, except for the Florida law described by HEW, I am not aware of requirements that you must provide a police officer written, official proof of identity. There is absolutely no national requirement that you prove citizenship to a law enforcement officer unless you are trying to enter the country. By contrast, aliens are required to carry and may be required to produce proof of status. My comment was explicit to the Arizona situation. A police officer demands that I produce proof of my immigration status. I reply that I am an American citizen. We do not have any official documents that a person is required to possess that officially prove citizenship. Many people do not possess a birth certificate. I have no idea if I still have a copy of my social security card. The last time I needed to produce it was more than 40 years ago. I have a passport, but very few citizens do. I have a driver's license which I obtained by producing a driver's license going all the way back to my first driver's license issued in Tennessee when I was 16. I didn't show any identification to get that, which was a good thing since I lived in Sicily at the time. One of the big problems with requirements for better documented driver's licenses is that many of those 50+ year old people simply do not possess the required documentation.

Untrue. The law is that upon request from a Police Officer you must provide proof of identity.

Neighbor (who I have many many issues with) complained about barking dogs. Sheriff's deputy shows up at my house.

He asks my name and REQUIRES me to provide a driver's license. I wasn't driving anywhere.

Was I being profiled???

WRL

dnf777
05-02-2010, 08:11 PM
He asks my name and REQUIRES me to provide a driver's license. I wasn't driving anywhere.

Was I being profiled???

WRL

No, obviously you weren't being profiled in that case. And if push came to shove, you probably did NOT have to produce ID, while standing in your home, unless you're a black Harvard professor who locked yourself out of your home. If you play your cards right, you might get a frosty mug with the POTUS.

I can see a legal catch-22 forming here:

No, a cop cannot force you to present papers without just cause. But if he ASKS you to, and you do not, then that in itself becomes just cause, and now you DO have to produce.

Without even scratching the Constitution, it would seem that in a multi-ethnic culture such as the US, there must be some way to identify who is legally here, and who isn't, beyond the color of one's skin. What kind of time-frame should be allowed to prove one's right to be here? I would much rather keep my boat registration in my truck's glovebox with the truck registration, where it won't get wet or dropped overboard, but the law says differently. I didn't get cited, but got royally hassled when I told a fish warden I'd have to go to my truck to get my papers. It would probably be too much to ask that we use a little common sense when it comes to these things. Its much more fun to call each other racists and rally in the streets I suppose. :confused:

YardleyLabs
05-02-2010, 08:32 PM
Untrue. The law is that upon request from a Police Officer you must provide proof of identity.

Neighbor (who I have many many issues with) complained about barking dogs. Sheriff's deputy shows up at my house.

He asks my name and REQUIRES me to provide a driver's license. I wasn't driving anywhere.

Was I being profiled???

WRL
You weren't being profiled, but you probably would have won if it had gone to court. You must identify yourself but, as a nation, we have pretty consistently resisted any requirement for proof of identity. What if you had not had a driver's license?

In 2004, in Hiibel v. the Sixth Judicial Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld a Nevada law requiring suspects of a crime to identify themselves to a police officer on the condition that there was probable cause based on concrete facts (not a hunch) that the individual may have perpetrated a crime. One of the justifications for upholding Nevada's mandatory identification law was that it only required the suspect to provide his name, and did not require that he provide documentary proof if identity. It also did not require that the individual provide any information other than his name. This 5-4 decision was a departure from prior practice which had held that an individual could not be compelled to identify himself under the 5th amendment. The four justices dissenting in the Hiibel case believed that even the requirement to provide a name violated protections under the 4th and 5th amendments. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada) .

BonMallari
05-02-2010, 10:08 PM
I suspect the odds are good that the Times Sq. bomber may even turn out to be a somewhat less peace loving American. In the famous words of Jack Nicholson, we should post signs at every border that say "Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.":D


Wrong if it was a disgruntled American they would have used a Chevy or Chrysler...they used a Nissan :p:p

dnf777
05-03-2010, 12:01 AM
Wrong if it was a disgruntled American they would have used a Chevy or Chrysler...they used a Nissan :p:p

Even suicide bombers won't drive toyotas anymore!

BonMallari
05-03-2010, 12:34 AM
Even suicide bombers won't drive toyotas anymore!

is that because the resale value is so high, and too expensive to use or because the accelerator keeps getting stuck and makes it very hard to park....:p:p

depittydawg
05-03-2010, 08:30 AM
Untrue. The law is that upon request from a Police Officer you must provide proof of identity.

Neighbor (who I have many many issues with) complained about barking dogs. Sheriff's deputy shows up at my house.

He asks my name and REQUIRES me to provide a driver's license. I wasn't driving anywhere.

Was I being profiled???

WRL

Interesting. I've have used police services on many occasions over the years. Other being pulled over in my car, I've never been asked to show ID.