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road kill
05-11-2010, 08:05 PM
Are you kidding me???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpdbk-CzZ48


This woman is insane!!





rk

dnf777
05-11-2010, 08:09 PM
Have to agree with you. Totally over the line.

YardleyLabs
05-11-2010, 08:38 PM
What part of it surprises you? She was actually responding to the request of the Bishops that Congress take action on immigration reform by asking that they deliver the same message to their congregant that they delivered to Congress.

"The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (http://www.usccb.org/), which is meeting this week in San Antonio, today called for immigration reform. The statement from Cardinal Francis George of Chicago, who is the president of the bishops' conference:
"On behalf of the United States Catholic Bishops, gathered in San Antonio, Texas, at our annual spring meeting, I would ask President Barack Obama and congressional leaders of both parties to work together to fashion and enact comprehensive immigration reform legislation before the end of the year. It has been clear for years that the United States immigration system requires repair and that reform legislation should not be delayed.
We urge respect and observance of all just laws, and we do not approve or encourage the illegal entry of anyone into our country. From a humanitarian perspective, however, our fellow human beings, who migrate to support their families, continue to suffer at the hands of immigration policies that separate them from family members and drive them into remote parts of the American desert, sometimes to their deaths. This suffering should not continue.
Now is the time to address this pressing humanitarian issue which affects so many lives and undermines basic human dignity. Our society should no longer tolerate a status quo that perpetuates a permanent underclass of persons and benefits from their labor without offering them legal protections. As a moral matter, we must resolve the legal status of those who are here without proper documentation so that they can fully contribute their talents to our nation’s economic, social and spiritual well being.
Only through comprehensive reform can we restore the rule of law to our nation’s immigration system.
We urge President Obama and congressional leaders to meet as soon as possible to discuss and draft comprehensive immigration reform legislation, with the goal of making it law by the end of 2009. The Catholic bishops of our country stand ready to assist in this effort." [source: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/06/catholic_bishop_4.html]
The separation of church and state prohibits the government from using its resources to endorse religion. It does not prevent churches from taking positions on what they believe are moral issues (e.g. pro or anti choice with respect to abortion, pro or anti gay marriage, etc.). Obviously, tax exemption has been used as a weapon to curb the tongues of churches -- one of the reasons that tax exemption should end and that churches should refuse it when offered). However, the Catholic Church has not hesitated to speak our publicly before and, if it is serious in supporting immigration reform, should speak out now. You can't lead effectively from the grandstands.

road kill
05-11-2010, 08:47 PM
What part of it surprises you? She was actually responding to the request of the Bishops that Congress take action on immigration reform by asking that they deliver the same message to their congregant that they delivered to Congress.

"The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (http://www.usccb.org/), which is meeting this week in San Antonio, today called for immigration reform. The statement from Cardinal Francis George of Chicago, who is the president of the bishops' conference:
"On behalf of the United States Catholic Bishops, gathered in San Antonio, Texas, at our annual spring meeting, I would ask President Barack Obama and congressional leaders of both parties to work together to fashion and enact comprehensive immigration reform legislation before the end of the year. It has been clear for years that the United States immigration system requires repair and that reform legislation should not be delayed.
We urge respect and observance of all just laws, and we do not approve or encourage the illegal entry of anyone into our country. From a humanitarian perspective, however, our fellow human beings, who migrate to support their families, continue to suffer at the hands of immigration policies that separate them from family members and drive them into remote parts of the American desert, sometimes to their deaths. This suffering should not continue.
Now is the time to address this pressing humanitarian issue which affects so many lives and undermines basic human dignity. Our society should no longer tolerate a status quo that perpetuates a permanent underclass of persons and benefits from their labor without offering them legal protections. As a moral matter, we must resolve the legal status of those who are here without proper documentation so that they can fully contribute their talents to our nation’s economic, social and spiritual well being.
Only through comprehensive reform can we restore the rule of law to our nation’s immigration system.
We urge President Obama and congressional leaders to meet as soon as possible to discuss and draft comprehensive immigration reform legislation, with the goal of making it law by the end of 2009. The Catholic bishops of our country stand ready to assist in this effort." [source: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/06/catholic_bishop_4.html]
The separation of church and state prohibits the government from using its resources to endorse religion. It does not prevent churches from taking positions on what they believe are moral issues (e.g. pro or anti choice with respect to abortion, pro or anti gay marriage, etc.). Obviously, tax exemption has been used as a weapon to curb the tongues of churches -- one of the reasons that tax exemption should end and that churches should refuse it when offered). However, the Catholic Church has not hesitated to speak our publicly before and, if it is serious in supporting immigration reform, should speak out now. You can't lead effectively from the grandstands.

You know, I would have bet everything I have that you would defend her......:rolleyes:








rk

YardleyLabs
05-11-2010, 08:52 PM
You know, I would have bet everything I have that you would defend her......:rolleyes:

rk

I'm actually not defending her at all. I asked a simple question. I agree with the statement by the US Congress of Bishops and also agree that unless they say the same thing to their congregants, their call for action is meaningless.

road kill
05-11-2010, 08:55 PM
I'm actually not defending her at all. I asked a simple question. I agree with the statement by the US Congress of Bishops and also agree that unless they say the same thing to their congregants, their call for action is meaningless.
So....as long as YOU agree with it it's OK.
But when the church opposes abortion or gay marriage you are offended!!


Unbeleivable.







rk

YardleyLabs
05-11-2010, 09:09 PM
So....as long as YOU agree with it it's OK.
But when the church opposes abortion or gay marriage you are offended!!


Unbeleivable.

rk
Where have I ever said or even suggested that I was offended by the church's opposition to abortion? I disagree with its position but have no problem at all with its arguments and am pleased that, unlike most of the politicians that hang on, the Church is equally consistent in applying a defense of life standard across the board.

Franco
05-11-2010, 09:28 PM
Just when I was beginning to think that Nancy couldn't stoop any lower.

Then, she finds a new way!

Oh, and lets lift the tax exemption for chruches and a few other entitlements.

Buzz
05-11-2010, 10:25 PM
I have sat through mass and heard lectures about abortion and our moral duty as voters. It would not surprise me to hear a lecture about this too.

I would be more upset not knowing the context of this speech, interesting that the guys that did that video left that out. I have known the Catholic Church's position on immigration reform for some time now.

For the record, I am not in favor of abortion.

depittydawg
05-11-2010, 10:45 PM
I have sat through mass and heard lectures about abortion and our moral duty as voters. It would not surprise me to hear a lecture about this too.

I would be more upset not knowing the context of this speech, interesting that the guys that did that video left that out. I have known the Catholic Church's position on immigration reform for some time now.

For the record, I am not in favor of abortion.

In her typical fashion, Pelosi took a legitimate message and completely botched it. Her point, at least the one I think she was tying awkwardly to convey, was that Churches need to come out of the woodwork and start preaching about moral issues from the pulpet. Apparently they are lobbying her hard on this issue. Her message was quit talking to me, and rally your followers. Nothing wrong with that.

david gibson
05-11-2010, 11:48 PM
I have sat through mass and heard lectures about abortion and our moral duty as voters. It would not surprise me to hear a lecture about this too.

I would be more upset not knowing the context of this speech, interesting that the guys that did that video left that out. I have known the Catholic Church's position on immigration reform for some time now.

For the record, I am not in favor of abortion.

it doesnt matter what you have sat through, priests and pastors have politiced via sermons and homilies for ages. they can say what they want.

whats different is when a politician tries direct infusion of influence. thats pushing it.

but with this administration who is surprised? free speech and separation of church and state is their definition and no one elses....:rolleyes:

depittydawg
05-12-2010, 12:50 AM
it doesnt matter what you have sat through, priests and pastors have politiced via sermons and homilies for ages. they can say what they want.

whats different is when a politician tries direct infusion of influence. thats pushing it.

but with this administration who is surprised? free speech and separation of church and state is their definition and no one elses....:rolleyes:

It was the last administration that started funneling tax payer money to churches so long as they peddled fundamental protestantism, which of course was a rally cry for Republican voters. The Obama administration put an end to that a long time ago via executive order.

david gibson
05-12-2010, 12:57 AM
It was the last administration that started funneling tax payer money to churches so long as they peddled fundamental protestantism, which of course was a rally cry for Republican voters. The Obama administration put an end to that a long time ago via executive order.

there you go again, point back to bush.......SIGH

road kill
05-12-2010, 07:16 AM
Nancey is promoting her "progressive" agenda by urging the church to preach "social justice" from the pulpit!!


rk

ducknwork
05-12-2010, 07:25 AM
They should be treated like human beings, not like animals or second class citizens. BUT, they should be treated like human beings on their ride back to where they came from. Illegal is illegal.

Buzz
05-12-2010, 10:43 AM
Nancey is promoting her "progressive" agenda by urging the church to preach "social justice" from the pulpit!!


rk


Actually, the church was lobbying her on immigration reform, and what she was saying is, if you want to influence immigration reform, you had better preach it from the pulpit.

The Catholic Church's position on "social justice" is easy to find. Look on their website. My opinions on the topic come from 12 years in the Catholic School System. If they end up changing their stance (which they won't) based on right wingers putting pressure on them, then I'll walk.

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 11:23 AM
Perhaps the following may be of interest:

President Obama recently "dissed" technology as disruptive if not used properly. Recently, and firstly perhaps, this sentiment was proffered by Pope Benedict XVI during one of his Papal addresses...here is what Benedict said (underlined emphasis added):

Today, nearly four thousand years after Abraham, the encounter of religions with culture occurs not simply on a geographical plane. Certain aspects of globalization and in particular the world of the internet have created a vast virtual culture, the worth of which is as varied as its countless manifestations. Undoubtedly much has been achieved to create a sense of closeness and unity within the world-wide human family. Yet, at the same time, the boundless array of portals through which people so readily access undifferentiated sources of information can easily become an instrument of
increasing fragmentation: the unity of knowledge is shattered and the complex skills of critique, discernment and discrimination learned through academic and ethical traditions are at times bypassed or neglected.


Obama recently spoke at the UN promoting his vision for a one world economic system based on four principles...here is his plan which must start "now":

Principles:

1-Disarmament
2-Peace
3-Planetary preservation
4-Global economy

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=cAkW56F0bHU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watchv=cAkW56F0bHU&feature=related)

Tony Blair recently started his move to establish a one world religious system known as the Tony Blair Faith Foundation. Here is his vision:

http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/pages/about-us (http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/pages/about-us)

To sum up my point here is an excerpt from John MacArthur's sermon series dealing with the final global world religious system and global economic system. The full sermon can be viewed and/or listened to here:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/66-62

The seven-year period of Tribulation begins just after the catching away of the church. The Antichrist rides in, as it were, on a white horse, conquering, he has a bow but no arrows, it's a peaceful kind of conquering. He brings the world a false peace, he takes over the world. At the same time a false religious world, global form of religion and worship grows up and the two exist...the harlot, the religion riding along supported by the beast. Then at the midpoint the beast doesn't tolerate that anymore, as we shall see. Consumes the false religious system and demands that the whole world worship him. He then becomes the world leader, not only politically but spiritually, already having apportioned out the world into ten zones, he has his sub-kings ruling on his behalf. His power at the first part of the Tribulation was the seventh great world power in the prophetic order. And after his false resurrection, he becomes also the eighth form.

The outline of events one can find in Revelation (that is the very last book in the bible) chapters 17 and 18 are rapidly coming into view. Obama pushing for peace and global economy NOW. Blair pushing for global religious interraction NOW. Groups such as the Club of Rome http://www.clubofrome.org/eng/home/ touting the establishment a 10 zone global system of government NOW must be a loud call to awaken...don't ignore it.





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depittydawg
05-12-2010, 12:14 PM
there you go again, point back to bush.......SIGH

The reference is valid to the thread. The hypocrisy of the right gets a little old. And no, I won't forget about it.

Franco
05-12-2010, 01:36 PM
So, Obama is the anti-Christ.

Paranoia runs deep within southern Republicans providing some good drama and humor!

Lousey President...yes. Calling him the anti-Christ gives the man too much credit. Besides, the entire concept of an anti-Christ is to keep the sheeple in line and the religions that preach it in business.

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 01:59 PM
So, Obama is the anti-Christ.

Paranoia runs deep within southern Republicans providing some good drama and humor!

Lousey President...yes. Calling him the anti-Christ gives the man too much credit. Besides, the entire concept of an anti-Christ is to keep the sheeple in line and the religions that preach it in business.


Typical immature garbage from you Franco.

I never said he was the antichrist...you made that assumption. He, Obama, said that he wants a one world economy...NOW.

Tony Blair said he wants a one world religious system...NOW.

You make of those efforts what you will.

The bible is clear that both a one world political/economic system and a one world religious order will be established.

My point is those things are being promoted NOW. Therefore, such actions as what Nancy P. did will become more frequent.

For example:

Obama said just a few minutes ago that our relationship with Afghanistan must be built on common interests and respect. That is the same ideology he touted in the UN speech he gave where he demanded that efforts begin NOW to establish a global economy...it is an agenda with hellish motives.

Stop demonstrating your arrogance/ignorance Franco, actually take your head out of the sand, and look around...you may see some stuff!




.

Buzz
05-12-2010, 02:25 PM
Wouldn't it be a shame if every leader who states "peace on earth" as a goal is accused of doing the devil's work?

Here is a quote from the link you provided to Tony Blair's site:


The Tony Blair Faith Foundation aims to promote respect and understanding about the world's major religions and show how faith is a powerful force for good in the modern world.


That does NOT sound like he's supporting the idea of a one world religious order to me.

Franco
05-12-2010, 02:28 PM
I am not one to be superstitious.

Again, just more paranoia to keep the sheeple in line.

They really scary thing about what you posted is that some people actually believe that stuff!

dnf777
05-12-2010, 03:18 PM
Obama said just a few minutes ago that our relationship with Afghanistan must be built on common interests and respect.

.

Common interests and respect???? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

We can't have any of that!!! What's this world coming to???

Do you realize how ridiculous that criticism is? Franco tried to temper it with some good ol' common sense, and was attacked!

He's absolutely right, this does provide good humor! :D

Franco
05-12-2010, 03:34 PM
He's absolutely right, this does provide good humor! :D



When one can not attack the message, they attack the messenger.

Back to the original intent of this thread.

If churches are to become more active politically, then they should lose thier tax exempt status. If they are caught hiding illegals, they should be fined as well as lose thier tax exempt status.

road kill
05-12-2010, 03:46 PM
When one can not attack the message, they attack the messenger.

Back to the original intent of this thread.

If churches are to become more active politically, then they should lose thier tax exempt status. If they are caught hiding illegals, they should be fined as well as lose thier tax exempt status.

And sweet Nancy has NO business telling the Catholic Church what the subject matter of a sermon should be!!



rk

depittydawg
05-12-2010, 03:47 PM
Obama said just a few minutes ago that our relationship with Afghanistan must be built on common interests and respect. That is the same ideology he touted in the UN speech he gave where he demanded that efforts begin NOW to establish a global economy...it is an agenda with hellish motives.

Well I for one can't have much respect for a culture that treats women as they do over there. And as far as something in common... Can't think of much we have in common with them. We once shared a common threat, the Soviet Union. So we helped them. Look were that got us. Best thing for us & them is to just leave them alone.

depittydawg
05-12-2010, 03:49 PM
And sweet Nancy has NO business telling the Catholic Church what the subject matter of a sermon should be!!



rk

For her to go public with this announcement was nothing short of STUPID!. But then, it is Nancy. I've come to expect utter incompetence from her.

dnf777
05-12-2010, 04:12 PM
When one can not attack the message, they attack the messenger.

Back to the original intent of this thread.

If churches are to become more active politically, then they should lose thier tax exempt status. If they are caught hiding illegals, they should be fined as well as lose thier tax exempt status.

I don't understand why churches are so privileged as to be tax-exempt? Because they help people? Doctors, firemen, policemen, barbers, and bartenders all help people. We all pay taxes! In some instances, churches generate pretty substantial income, and control large assets, and should be taxed accordingly, like everyone else. If they DO give generously, then that should be deductible. Then the churches who are truly doing the Lord's work will be rewarded with lower taxes. The "business" churches who make people rich, will pay their fair share.

BonMallari
05-12-2010, 04:17 PM
And sweet Nancy has NO business telling the Catholic Church what the subject matter of a sermon should be!!



rk


For her to go public with this announcement was nothing short of STUPID!. But then, it is Nancy. I've come to expect utter incompetence from her.

I wonder how Queen Nancy goes to confessional being the devout Catholic that she is with her stance on abortion hmmm...:rolleyes:

it would almost make my fall hunting season seem meaningless if she were to lose her Majority and her Speaker position

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 04:19 PM
Common interests and respect???? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

We can't have any of that!!! What's this world coming to???



Taken in the context of what President Obama has been pushing most strenuously of late I interpret the common interests to mean a global common wealth...looking out for each other in a global sorta way ya know...and the respect thing goes straight to the heart of religious tolerence...for every "faith" except Christianity that is.

These guys are not playing with semantics here. They have a genuine global-government plan and a global religious system plan...and they are promoting it very heartily everywhere...even at college graduation events.

Do a search for interfaith groups/councils. Search for the New World Order. Check out the World Council of Churches. Look at the Catholic church's involvement with ecumenism on a global scale. The efforts world wide to blend all of the world's religions together are staggering!

Then look at the intolerence of anything Christian...truly Christian that is; you know...faith in Jesus alone is the only way that anyone will ever see the kingdom of heaven. There is salvation in none other than Jesus the Christ. Every knee will bow to Jesus whether here on earth, under the earth, in heaven and/or in hell, etc. True Christianity does no jive with the global systems being pushed. In fact, Jesus said Himself that He came not to bring peace to this world but a sword...not peace but fire (and how He wished it were already kindled when He was here the first time in the flesh). The peaceful religious system being touted by Obama and Blair et al will include everything but Christianity. That religious system has now become the poster boy of many of the world leaders...and you watch it will be the main ideology with Britain's new PM as well...Nancy P. is just playing her part and so are the Catholic Bishops.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings Franco...get over it.


.

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 04:23 PM
I don't understand why churches are so privileged as to be tax-exempt?


Ask the Pope...I am sure he knows why.



.

Koolaid
05-12-2010, 04:27 PM
Love it.

Keith Farmer believes in conspiracy theories on New World Order, but not evolution.

It's hard to take anything you say seriously.

dnf777
05-12-2010, 04:31 PM
Ask the Pope...I am sure he knows why.

.

I may have been raised Catholic, but to me, the pope is a man who thinks he is closer to God than the rest of us, who wears funny hats and robes, and covers up child molestation.

I really don't want to talk to him.

dnf777
05-12-2010, 04:40 PM
These guys are not playing with semantics here. They have a genuine global-government plan and a global religious system plan...and they are promoting it very heartily everywhere...even at college graduation events.

Do a search for interfaith groups/councils. Search for the New World Order. Check out the World Council of Churches. Look at the Catholic church's involvement with ecumenism on a global scale. The efforts world wide to blend all of the world's religions together are staggering!


.

I agree. And that one dollar bill??? "Novus Ordo Seclorum"?? And that creep eye atop the unfinished pyramid??

As a good Christian, you should immediately take out all paper money from your wallet and burn it during the ascent of the next new moon! Or put it in an envelope and send it to:

Campaign For Liberty |
5211 Port Royal Road, Suite 310
Springfield, VA 22151

To save your soul, and the world!

Franco
05-12-2010, 05:06 PM
Sorry if I hurt your feelings Franco...get over it.


.

Didn't hurt my feeling as I get a good laugh out of many of your post. Yes, it is amusing that someone puts so much credibilty in material that was written 2,000 and 4,000 years ago. Most of us on this forum live in the 21st Century.

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 05:14 PM
Most of us on this forum live in the 21st Century.

That is what I have been trying to tell you Franco...you just don't listen.

The fact that those ancient writings (which really is such a weak argument man...but if it is all ya got I'll play along) describe in detail everything going on around you right now should be an indicator that you too should read them...and base your life around their teachings. I am praying that you have your eyes opened man.



.

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 05:16 PM
As a good Christian


Really...are you kidden me?

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 05:18 PM
Keith Farmer believes in conspiracy theories on New World Order, but not evolution


Did you watch the Obama video?

Did you watch the Tony Blair video.

Not conspiracy theories when they are, in reality, being publically touted by the most powerful men on the planet.

And evolution is foolish...but that is another argument.:)


.

Franco
05-12-2010, 06:00 PM
One of the great aspects of being an American is that we all get to believe in what we want to!

Unlike those living is an Islamic state where religion trumps freedom. And, as long as we can keep government seperate from religion, we won't have to worry about that here.

dnf777
05-12-2010, 07:23 PM
Really...are you kidden me?

Of course I'm kidding! We're all free to believe whatever we want to.....or not believe whatever we want!

God, Jesus, Yahweh, Jehova.....many, many more, all have different meaning and different prophesies for different people of the world. Whenever someone is convinced that THEIR belief is the ONLY truth, and tries to impose on others, thats when the trouble starts.

Buzz
05-12-2010, 07:27 PM
as long as we can keep government seperate from religion, we won't have to worry about that here.

There ya go!

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 09:08 PM
Whenever someone is convinced that THEIR belief is the ONLY truth, and tries to impose on others, thats when the trouble starts.

1-Are you saying there is more than one truth?

2-If you are implying that I am trying to impose my "beliefs" on someone then you are misguided. If that is just a carte blance statement then I agree...however, just wait and see what is coming down the pike from world leaders.

Want a jolt of reality? Read this op ed from the president of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haass:

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9903/sovereignty_and_globalisation.html

Here is a small blurb from the piece-

All of this suggests that sovereignty must be redefined if states are to cope with globalisation.



.

Keith Farmer
05-12-2010, 09:13 PM
as long as we can keep government seperate from religion, we won't have to worry about that here.


Too late Franco...waaaaay too late.

You guys should have thought about that decades ago. Now, well, it is no longer a possibility that government, any world government that is, will stay out of religious affairs...there is too much to gain otherwise in the effort for globalization.





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dnf777
05-12-2010, 09:21 PM
1-Are you saying there is more than one truth?

2-If you are implying that I am trying to impose my "beliefs" on someone then you are misguided. If that is just a carte blance statement then I agree...however, just wait and see what is coming down the pike from world leaders.

Want a jolt of reality? Read this op ed from the president of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haass:

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9903/sovereignty_and_globalisation.html

Here is a small blurb from the piece-

All of this suggests that sovereignty must be redefined if states are to cope with globalisation.


.

My comment was in the generic sense, but you are basically nullifying all other beliefs and world religions by implying that YOURS is the ONLY truth. Do you see that? Yes, there is more than one truth. That is why there are over 8000 "organized" religions on this planet. Spiritual "truth" is between each individual and their god, gods, or whatever their reality is. One man looks to a man nailed to a cross, another looks to a guy staring into a magical hat in New York to receive the holy doctrines.

What is your point with Mr. Haass's editorial? Are you endorsing it, or condemning it? I think he speaks of some eventualities, some of which are being realized already. Thomas Friedman wrote of this happening in his book "The World is Flat" several years ago. Many of his other predictions have been realized also. The internet, globalization, and ease of international shipping and commerce have been a real big, scary Genie that has been let out of the bottle. Clearly, nations with the highest standard of living, such as the USA, were unprepared for the leveling effect this would have on global standards of living. (at least the working class was, the ultra-wealthy are doing just fine, not to worry)

Buzz
05-12-2010, 09:43 PM
The internet, globalization, and ease of international shipping and commerce have been a real big, scary Genie that has been let out of the bottle. Clearly, nations with the highest standard of living, such as the USA, were unprepared for the leveling effect this would have on global standards of living. (at least the working class was, the ultra-wealthy are doing just fine, not to worry)


If projections about future costs of transportation fuels come true, the stopper will be going back on the bottle.

YardleyLabs
05-12-2010, 09:43 PM
Did you watch the Obama video?

Did you watch the Tony Blair video.

Not conspiracy theories when they are, in reality, being publically touted by the most powerful men on the planet.

And evolution is foolish...but that is another argument.:)


.
It's hard to watch the Obama video since the link doesn't work. However, the Tony Blair video has nothing at all to do with creating one global religion. Equating tolerance among religions is not the same and for the last sixty years almost every major religion has sought to find common grounds for respect and cooperation with other religions. For those religions so convinced of their unique understanding of the truth that all other beliefs are not simply wrong but also bad, I see no reason to give more respect than is returned.

By the way, I have never read or heard anything that givens me any reason to believe that Obama is seeking a single world economy now in the sense that you imply. However, the reality is that as long as capital and goods travel freely through the world, we have one global economy whether we like it or not. We cannot survive as an insular nation, and until we start paying our own bills we will remain dependent on the support of those who now finance our debt.

BTW, I believe that there is absolutely more than one truth and that truth comes in many different packages.

dnf777
05-12-2010, 11:33 PM
If projections about future costs of transportation fuels come true, the stopper will be going back on the bottle.

That is a GREAT point, and I haven't heard much chatter about that aspect from the so-called experts. One fix to our economic woes that I had mentioned a while back is coming around...that is, the rest of the world crashes worse than we do! Hopefully we can continue our recovery without being drug back down too far.

aandw
05-13-2010, 08:53 AM
I don't understand why churches are so privileged as to be tax-exempt? Because they help people? Doctors, firemen, policemen, barbers, and bartenders all help people. We all pay taxes! In some instances, churches generate pretty substantial income, and control large assets, and should be taxed accordingly, like everyone else. If they DO give generously, then that should be deductible. Then the churches who are truly doing the Lord's work will be rewarded with lower taxes. The "business" churches who make people rich, will pay their fair share.


i believe any church showing a profit is not doing what the Lord intended. i have no problem with taxing churches if they are in it to make money. but a lot of churches can go through their cash in a hurry during emergencies. my church is relatively small, we may have $0-$1000 dollars at a given time. but if someone is in need one power bill, or rent payment can wipe out our cash. most church income flucuate monh to tmonth. so at what point do you tax them? monthly, quarterly, end of year?
btw, since when do you have to pay taxes to voice your opinion. are you going to only let the ones that pay taxes vote? or is it just because you disagree with their stance? your posts are usually thought out better.

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 09:38 AM
Yes, there is more than one truth.




or whatever their reality is


A)-The idea that there can exist more than one truth is a violation of the law of non-contradiction. That law, which governs everything including and especially science, says that A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship. To say that truth exists on multiple levels is nonsense.

For an individual to base truth on perception requires that individual to use, as the interpreter of their perception, either thought or emotion from a human perspective. Therein lies the problem with relativism...it is humanistic. Further, the bible says that Satan is the great deceiver and he traverses the earth seeking folk to deceive. Therefore, our "perceptions" can and will deceive us because they can be easily manipulated by Satan. The bible declares that there is a way that seems right (perception) to a man but in the end that path will lead him to destruction. Perceptions of truth, apart from and not founded upon Christ, will lead to destruction...that is why Jesus Himself said that we should build our spiritual house on the solid foundation which is Christ alone.

The bible declares that out of the heart flow the issues of life. Also, the bible declares that the heart is desperately wicked...so the heart, or the core of one's being, cannot reliably be the source of or the interpreter of truth unless God gives one a new heart...a regenerated heart known as the new birth...or being born again.

The bible also declares that the thoughts of unregenerate men are only and continually evil. Therefore, the intellect cannot be the source of or the interpreter of truth unless God gives us the mind of Christ as is described in Philippians 2:5-11 and elsewhere.

There exists only one truth...not my reality, not my perception, not my intellect, but God's.

John 17:17 says that God's Word is truth. The bible...the 66 books of the Old and New Testament make up God's Word...and He declares that it alone is truth. Further, if one wants to know how much of God's Word is true Psalm 119:160 says that the sum, or the entirety, of God's Word is truth. That means from Genesis 1:1 thru Revelation 22:21 is truth. The bible does not merely contain truth...it is truth from cover to cover.

Finally, the bible declares that Jesus Himself is the physical manifestation of God's Word...He is the Word which became flesh and lived among us. So, to sum up the first point here: God's written word is truth from cover to cover and Jesus is the physical manifestation of that truth which demands that we seek Him alone if we are to discover truth.

B)- There are multiple laws of logic that dictate reality. The law of non-contradiction is one, the laws of immediate inference are more, and there is the law of deduction to name a few. All of these laws maintain that there is reality, there are paradoxes, and there are contradictions. One must strive to discern the difference between these areas of logic. The bible declares that only through God's grace, which is an undeserved gift, and His knowledge, which is given to us through the dilligent study of His Word, are we equipped to discern truth from error in a spiritual sense.


You see, everything centers on God, His Word, and Jesus the Christ who is God the Son...the second person of the triune Godhead and the physical manifestation of God's Word. That is why Paul could say to the intellegencia at Athens when he addressed them on Mars Hill...it is this God (the God of the bible, the One the Greeks called Logos or the Word...the unknown God in Athens) in whom we live, and move, and have our being. God has necessary BEING. From Him we have life. From Him we are able to move about. From Him we have our existence. Apart from Him there is nothing!
.

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 09:58 AM
the Tony Blair video has nothing at all to do with creating one global religion.


You are wrong Jeff.


By the way, I have never read or heard anything that givens me any reason to believe that Obama is seeking a single world economy now in the sense that you imply.

You need to pay attention to everything that is going on around you Jeff. Here are several links...I hope they work. If not, do a search on Youtube...they are there. These are but a small...small sample of everything that is going on in terms of globalization. This movement did not start recently. Ramped up efforts for globalization have been about since the end of WWII...only now can they become a reality.

Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CV8Xt2VWvc

Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rLN2sUFmaE&feature=related

Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAkW56F0bHU&feature=related

EU President

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXWeOa-FuyM&feature=related



.

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 10:07 AM
What is your point with Mr. Haass's editorial? Are you endorsing it, or condemning it?


Neither.

Simply using it as an illustratation that globalization is not a conspiracy theory but a very present reality...one that is being sought by every major player in the game...now.


.

dnf777
05-13-2010, 11:21 AM
i believe any church showing a profit is not doing what the Lord intended. i have no problem with taxing churches if they are in it to make money. but a lot of churches can go through their cash in a hurry during emergencies. my church is relatively small, we may have $0-$1000 dollars at a given time. but if someone is in need one power bill, or rent payment can wipe out our cash. most church income flucuate monh to tmonth. so at what point do you tax them? monthly, quarterly, end of year?
btw, since when do you have to pay taxes to voice your opinion. are you going to only let the ones that pay taxes vote? or is it just because you disagree with their stance? your posts are usually thought out better.

Simple. Year end balance sheet. If a commendable church such as yours gives substantially to charitable causes, they deduct and pay less taxes. If they generate huge profits, and the minister tools around in a CitationJet, they they pay taxes just like the other wage earners in this country.

As for paying taxes to have an opinion, I never meant to imply that. The problem I have is when a church uses its influence over its parishioners to influence elections, policies, etc....it then becomes a campaign tool, and that should not be tax exempt.

The whole issue of separation of church and state, especially in regards to elections and preaching from the pulpit, and when that becomes campagning rather than preaching is a very sticky issue, and one that we will likely not solve here. ;-)

dnf777
05-13-2010, 11:26 AM
Neither.

Simply using it as an illustratation that globalization is not a conspiracy theory but a very present reality...one that is being sought by every major player in the game...now.


.

I'm not sure what definition of "globalization" you are using. In terms of international commerce and trade is one thing. Religious sects and secret society takeovers are another. Nobody would deny that global markets are emerging, or for that matter, have existed and have been growing for many years. Maybe you can clarify what you mean by globalization?

Tom Friedman already stated that modern nations are little more than social and in some cases, ethnic cliques. Corporations operate with very little regard to national boundries or concerns in many cases. One purpose that nations serve, is to kindle and foster warring, so that the MIC continues to be fed.

The book "Imperial Cruise" in on my stack of books waiting to be read. I believe it discusses some of these issues both historically, and how it relates to present day.

menmon
05-13-2010, 11:57 AM
Neither.

Simply using it as an illustratation that globalization is not a conspiracy theory but a very present reality...one that is being sought by every major player in the game...now.


.

One thing that I have heard from the Christian right is that we are moving to a global currrency and somehow they tie that to the second comming.

I'm pretty sure that after what has been happen with the European Monetary Union, coupling currencies is not in vogue anymore.

So the naysayers are still batting zero.

paul young
05-13-2010, 12:00 PM
anybody remember the movie "Rollerball" with James Caan cast as Jonathon?

quote from the movie: ".....i remember when there were 3 countries......"

in the movie the world was run by 4 corporations; energy, food, housing, and transportation. no money- only "credits".-Paul

menmon
05-13-2010, 12:11 PM
anybody remember the movie "Rollerball" with James Caan cast as Jonathon?

quote from the movie: ".....i remember when there were 3 countries......"

in the movie the world was run by 4 corporations; energy, food, housing, and transportation. no money- only "credits".-Paul

You are watching to many movies.

As the bible states this is all predetermined so what's going to happen is going to happen no matter what, so worring about it is a waste of time and energy.

paul young
05-13-2010, 12:21 PM
probably so.

but i LOVE to watch movies! i'll be watching "The Blind Side" tonight!-Paul

dnf777
05-13-2010, 12:23 PM
Neither.

Simply using it as an illustratation that globalization is not a conspiracy theory but a very present reality...one that is being sought by every major player in the game...now.


.

Keith,
I don't mean to argue those points. I have the utmost respect for your convictions. We probably agree on much when it comes to globalization and its evils....maybe not on the cause or motivations, but the outcome, nonetheless.

have a good one,
dave

Gerry Clinchy
05-13-2010, 01:01 PM
The problem I have is when a church uses its influence over its parishioners to influence elections, policies, etc....it then becomes a campaign tool, and that should not be tax exempt.


Do unions pay taxes? Unions are allowed to influence their members & support candidates and policies. HSUS is a non-profit that directly lobbies certain legislation strongly (and candidates who support HSUS agenda).

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 01:13 PM
Here are a few quotes from some of the past and current powerful religious elite in terms of religious globalization:

First let's begin by looking at the Catholic church's role in the game (bold emphasis added):

On February 15, 1926, Catholic dogma tells us that the child Jesus came and urged Catholics: "To spend this devotion of and reparation to the Immaculate Heart of the holy Mother Mary." And the child Jesus declared, "Reparation must be made to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in order for mankind to be saved."

Pope John Paul II (bold emphasis added):

"The history of relations among Jews, Christians, and Muslims shows both lights and shadows, and unfortunately some sad moments," the Pope said. In today's dangerous world, he continued, there is an "urgent need" for the world's great religions to come together, in light of their "common desire that all men be purified of the hatred and evil that always threaten peace."

Pope Benedict's agenda:

Ever since the second Vatican Congress, convened in Rome by Pope John xxiii in 1962, the Vatican has been preparing for what it is convinced will be a return of the Protestant and Orthodox followers to the Catholic fold. Until 1978, this church of one billion followers followed a steady and careful ecumenical path until the pace of progress of reuniting Christendom dramatically stepped up under the leadership of a Polish pope

Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote concerning the issue:

"There are movements afoot which are trying to bring a kind of rapprochement between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. The Roman Catholic system is all together more dangerous than is Communism. Roman Catholicism is the devil's greatest masterpiece. It is such a departure from the Christian faith and the New Testament teaching that her dogma is a counterfeit, she is as the Scripture puts it, the whore. Let me warn you very solemnly that if you rejoice in these ecumenical approaches to Rome, you're denying the blood of the martyrs. There are innocent people who are being deluded by this kind of falsity and it is your business and mine to open their eyes."

Mother Teresa wrote:

"If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. What God is in your mind you must accept."

Now to more modern quotes (although I could literally post thousands of quotes from catholicism):

The Tony Blair Foundation:

"Faith is vitally important to hundreds of millions of people. It underpins systems of thought and of behaviour. It underpins many of the world's great movements for change or reform, including many charities. And the values of respect, justice and compassion that our great religions share have never been more relevant or important to bring people together to build a better world. (respect, justice, compassion...all buzz words Obama is using in his speeches right now)

But religious faith can also be used to divide. We have seen throughout history and today we still see how it can be distorted to fan the flames of hatred and extremism.

The Tony Blair Faith Foundation is a response to these opportunities and challenges. We will use the full power of modern communications to support and step up efforts at every level to educate, inform and develop understanding about the different faiths and between them."

Tony Blair:

"As Globalization pushes us ever closer it is vital it (faith...religion) is not used as a force for conflict and division."

Tony Blair foundation(bold emphasis added):

"Globalisation pushes people closer together. Religious faith motivates and influences billions of people in different ways. The ways in which these two great forces (globalization and faith) interract with each other and shape the world-for good and for ill- are complex..."

Rick Warren:

“You know, 500 years ago, the first Reformation with Luther and then Calvin, was about beliefs. I think a new reformation is going to be about behavior. The first Reformation was about creeds; I think this one will be about deeds. ... The first Reformation actually split Christianity into dozens and then hundreds of different segments. I think this one is actually going to bring them together. Now, you’re never going to get Christians, of all their stripes and varieties, to agree on all of the different doctrinal disputes and things like that, but what I am seeing them agree on are the purposes of the church. ... Last week I spoke to 4,000 pastors at my church who came from over 100 denominations in over 50 countries. Now, that’s wide spread. We had Catholic priests, we had Pentecostal ministers, we had Lutheran bishops, we had Anglican bishops, we had Baptist preachers. They’re all there together and you know what? I’d never get them to agree on communion or baptism or a bunch of stuff like that, but I could get them to agree on what the church should be doing in the world”


Want more? I could talk about Bill Hybels, Ed Young, T.D Jakes, Promise Keepers, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Joel Osteen, Timothy Keller, N.T Wright, ....an on and on and on.


.

Franco
05-13-2010, 01:25 PM
If Keith's quotes are accurate, I would say the Catholic Church is for promoting tollerence and world peace and not promoting religious superiority or the only true belief(religious) dogma.

The problem with believing that one's religion is absolute or the only credible religion is that it doesn't work for mankind. That it only works for that small sect. Hence, we have the radical Muslims that are willing to kill anyone that doesn't belive they are the one true religion.

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 01:59 PM
If Keith's quotes are accurate, I would say the Catholic Church is for promoting tollerence and world peace and not promoting religious superiority or the only true belief(religious) dogma.



I have not fabricated any of the quotes...they are accurate.

Here ya go for intolerence from Catholicism (again I can fill up pages of their stuff if you want):


"The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816

#846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church (that would be the Roman Catholic Church) which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition (which is warned about exhaustively in the bible...tradition that is), the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism (that is a lie), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church (another lie) which men enter through Baptism (lie)as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.The holy universal Church(Roman Catholic Church that is)teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’Pope Gregory

‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Innocent III



.

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 02:04 PM
In case this quote was missed I want to post it by itself:



"There are movements afoot which are trying to bring a kind of rapprochement between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. The Roman Catholic system is all together more dangerous than is Communism. Roman Catholicism is the devil's greatest masterpiece. It is such a departure from the Christian faith and the New Testament teaching that her dogma is a counterfeit, she is as the Scripture puts it, the whore. Let me warn you very solemnly that if you rejoice in these ecumenical approaches to Rome, you're denying the blood of the martyrs. There are innocent people who are being deluded by this kind of falsity and it is your business and mine to open their eyes." Martyn Lloyd-Jones



.

Franco
05-13-2010, 03:50 PM
In case this quote was missed I want to post it by itself:



"There are movements afoot which are trying to bring a kind of rapprochement between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. The Roman Catholic system is all together more dangerous than is Communism. Roman Catholicism is the devil's greatest masterpiece. It is such a departure from the Christian faith and the New Testament teaching that her dogma is a counterfeit, she is as the Scripture puts it, the whore. Let me warn you very solemnly that if you rejoice in these ecumenical approaches to Rome, you're denying the blood of the martyrs. There are innocent people who are being deluded by this kind of falsity and it is your business and mine to open their eyes." Martyn Lloyd-Jones



.




Wow, more dangerous than Communism! Even the Christians can't get along with each other, same for the Muslim world.

Heretical Thoughts:
The Christian Bible is incoherent, is of dubious historicity, teems with period regional mythology or lore, exhibits evolutionary manufacturing artifacts and lacks external, verifiable secular corroboration. As such, it hardly provides the foundation of a rational belief system.
Incoherence:

One need only examine the various accounts of the resurrection of the Jesus character -- or for that matter, the details around his alleged birth and lineage -- to experience a deep sense of misgiving about the accuracy and consistency of the descriptions. As to the resurrection: who arrives at the tomb first? How many? Who is present? What happens next? When is the "resurrected" Jesus back in action, where and with whom? More fundamentally, why is there ANY variance in supposedly "inspired" recapitulations of these "historic" events?
With regard to the Jesus birth lineage, who has it correctly articulated -- Matthew or Luke? For that matter, does the "holy family" go to Egypt after the birth or no? And who has ever conducted a census in the manner described? Certainly not the Romans in the Levant, circa 0 CE, by other (verifiable at that) accounts.

What Historicity?

That the Christian Bible was written largely in the 2nd century CE has been asserted and argued to good effect by many secular historians (refer to our resources page). And it is due to this latent compilation of various seminal documents and sayings -- including a post-insertion of a central Jesus character -- which resulted in notable historical gaffes. One of the more prominent mistakes was the biblical assertion of Nazareth as the home village of the Jesus character during his (largely undocumented -- at least in the approved canon) developmental years. Never mind that secular archaeologists (that is, those without christian sponsorship) find no compelling evidence that Nazareth existed early in the first century CE.

ducknwork
05-13-2010, 04:13 PM
Keith, I am confused...In one post, you say this...


A)-The idea that there can exist more than one truth is a violation of the law of non-contradiction. That law, which governs everything including and especially science, says that A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship. To say that truth exists on multiple levels is nonsense.

.

But then you go on to say that it will be wrong if there is one world religion. If there is only one truth, then wouldn't it be a good thing if we all believed in the same God, the same way, so that we could all be following the true truth and go to heaven? Or do you think it is better for there to be some out there who follow what you claim to be false religions so they will go to hell? At least then there won't be a 'world religion'. I don't know what denomination you practice, but would you be opposed to your denomination being the faith that everyone in the world follows? It's blatantly obvious that you despise Catholics and what they believe in. Is that why you don't like anything that they say regarding getting along with others? Aren't we supposed to love our neighbor?

OK, so you think the Catholic Church is wrong for saying this:


The holy universal Church(Roman Catholic Church that is)teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved

Now let's think about this.

1. Keith says there is only one truth.
2. Keith is clearly a follower of some Christian denomination.
3. Keith denounces the Catholic Church for saying that they are the way to salvation.
4. Given items 1 and 2, Keith must think that his denomination is the way to salvation, and the only truth.

So why is it OK for you to believe that your church possesses the sole truth and path to salvation, but it is wrong for others to believe the same about their respective religions?

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 05:29 PM
Even the Christians can't get along with each other


Catholicism is not biblical Christianity...don't think I or they can make that any clearer.



.

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 05:36 PM
Now let's think about this.

1. Keith says there is only one truth.
2. Keith is clearly a follower of some Christian denomination.
3. Keith denounces the Catholic Church for saying that they are the way to salvation.
4. Given items 1 and 2, Keith must think that his denomination is the way to salvation, and the only truth.

So why is it OK for you to believe that your church possesses the sole truth and path to salvation, but it is wrong for others to believe the same about their respective religions?

If you can read I suggest you go back and look at what I said...I said it is not my perception, not my intellect, not my belief that dictates truth. God has established His Word as truth. I gave you two passages of biblical documentation to support that. I accept God at His Word...other world religions, name any one you want including Roman Catholicism, do not accept God at His Word.

The Reformation gave us 5 Solas (that means alone) that are foundational to biblical Christianity...if you want to call adherence to the bible a denomination then so be it...I am a biblier (or whatever):

1-Sola Gratia

2-Sola Fide

3-Solo Christo

4-Sola Scriptura

5-Soli Deo gloria


.

Buzz
05-13-2010, 05:42 PM
This has the potential to be longer than the "can't get my dog to seat on a duck" thread.

depittydawg
05-13-2010, 05:48 PM
Catholicism is not biblical Christianity...don't think I or they can make that any clearer.



.

My favorite verse in the bible:

Matthew 7:1 - Judge not,lest ye be judged.

starjack
05-13-2010, 06:54 PM
all i can say she is wacked out woman . First we have to pass the bill to know whats in it. So that told me she did not know what was in it .. and now this . SHE HAS GOT TO GO WITH THE REST OF THEM .

YardleyLabs
05-13-2010, 07:51 PM
A)-The idea that there can exist more than one truth is a violation of the law of non-contradiction. That law, which governs everything including and especially science, says that A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship. To say that truth exists on multiple levels is nonsense.

...
.
Aristotle, in proposing his "laws" of logic included the law of contradiction saying, basically, that if A is true, and A is not the same as B, then B cannot be true. While he attempted various proofs of this "law", he was never very successful. Part of the problem was that he depends on the axiom that every expression has a single meaning.

The problem is that, in human communication, that has never been true and it is certainly not true when discussing documents that have been retold orally over a period of centuries before being committed to paper in one set of languages and one era in time, and then translated and re-translated over and over again into different languages, by different people, in different cultures, and in different eras of time. That these pages are then read differently by different eyes and intellects is no surprise. The only surprise would be to find any individual capable of imputing a single vision of the truth to the result.

Keith, you repeatedly claim a single truth based on your reading of the bible. That truth, as you state routinely, is singular and absolute. All others are wrong and either the product of misguided minds or deliberate manipulation for evil.

Based on the singularity of your vision, you condemn all calls for cooperation and mutual respect among religions and countries as efforts to undermine the Truth. You claim logic to support your vision, but all of your logic is predicated on first accepting the truth of your propositions. As it happens, very few read the truth as you do, including the majority of those who identify themselves a Christian.

I am not Christian. I believe that there are elements of truth in all things that celebrate and respect the miracle of life, and that the world must strive for tolerance of all things that celebrate and respect life. Inherent in that is a rejection of "true believers" that wish to impose their view of Truth on others. They have earned and deserve intolerance.

road kill
05-13-2010, 08:20 PM
I am not Christian. I believe that there are elements of truth in all things that celebrate and respect the miracle of life, and that the world must strive for tolerance of all things that celebrate and respect life. Inherent in that is a rejection of "true believers" that wish to impose their view of Truth on others. They have earned and deserve intolerance.


How does this "celebration and respect" for life coexist with abortion (the taking of an innocent life)???



rk

YardleyLabs
05-13-2010, 08:34 PM
How does this "celebration and respect" for life coexist with abortion (the taking of an innocent life)???



rk
With difficulty and a recognition that individuals make many personal decisions where there is no good answer. I tend to think that involving government in regulating those decisions makes little sense. You will also note that when I said life, I did not restrict it to human life. Dietary decisions are themselves a choice with moral implications. I choose to eat meat and to kill animals I don't eat to train my dogs. My daughter chooses to be a vegetarian. We get along just fine despite our different choices.

Koolaid
05-13-2010, 08:35 PM
How does this "celebration and respect" for life coexist with abortion (the taking of an innocent life)???



rk

I don't know if this is what you are implying or not, but you don't have to be religious to be pro-life.
I would be an example of that.
If that isn't what you were saying...sorry...carry on =)

Buzz
05-13-2010, 08:39 PM
These really look great!

Cinnamon Sticky Buns Recipe
INGREDIENTS
Dough:
1/4 cup warm water (105° to 115°)
1 (1/4-ounce) package active dry yeast
1/3 cup sugar
3/4 cup milk
4 Tbsp. unsalted butter, plus more for greasing
3 large egg yolks
1 Tbsp. finely grated orange zest
1 1/4 teaspoon. salt
4 to 4 1/4 cups all-purpose flour, plus more for dusting
Filling:
1/2 cup firmly packed light brown sugar
1 Tbsp. ground cinnamon
4 Tbsp. unsalted butter
Topping:
3/4 cup firmly packed light brown sugar
4 Tbsp. unsalted butter
3 Tbsp. honey
1 Tbsp. light corn syrup
1 1/2 cups (6 ounces) coarsely chopped pecans
METHOD
1 Make the dough. In the bowl of an electric mixer, combine warm water, yeast and 1 tsp. sugar. Stir to dissolve and let sit until foamy, about 5 minutes. Here's a good photo and description of what the yeast should look like after several minutes.
Add milk, butter, remaining sugar, egg yolks, orange zest, salt and 3 cups flour. Mix on low speed until blended. Switch to a dough hook and then, again on low speed, slowly incorporate the remaining 1 cup of flour. Increase speed to medium, kneading dough until smooth and slightly sticky (adding a little more flour if too wet), 3 to 5 minutes. Shape the dough into a ball and place in a large, buttered bowl. Turn dough over in bowl to coat with the butter from the bowl. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap. Let rise in a warm place until doubled in volume, about 1 hour (or 2 hours if not in an entirely warm place). After the dough has risen, punch down. Turn out onto a lightly floured cutting board and let sit 20 minutes.

2 Make the filling. Combine brown sugar and cinnamon in a small bowl. Melt butter; keep separate.
3 Roll dough out into a 12" x 18" rectangle. Brush with melted butter and sprinkle with cinnamon-sugar mixture. Starting with the long side, roll dough into a cylinder. Place seam side down on a flat surface and cut crosswise into 15 slices.


4 Make the topping. In a 1-quart saucepan, combine brown sugar, butter, honey and corn syrup over low heat; stir until sugar and butter are melted. Pour mixture into a greased 9" x 13" pan and sprinkle pecans on top.

5 Place dough slices, flat side down, on top of prepared topping. Crowd them so they touch. Cover with plastic wrap, leaving room for the buns to rise, and refrigerate overnight.
6 Remove the rolls from the refrigerator and let stand at room temperature while the oven pre-heats. Preheat oven to 375°. Bake buns until golden, 30 to 35 minutes. Remove pan from oven and immediately (and carefully as not to spill hot topping on your toes!) invert onto a serving tray or baking dish. Let buns cool slightly and serve warm.

road kill
05-13-2010, 08:50 PM
These really look great!

Cinnamon Sticky Buns Recipe
INGREDIENTS
Dough:
1/4 cup warm water (105° to 115°)
1 (1/4-ounce) package active dry yeast
1/3 cup sugar
3/4 cup milk
4 Tbsp. unsalted butter, plus more for greasing
3 large egg yolks
1 Tbsp. finely grated orange zest
1 1/4 teaspoon. salt
4 to 4 1/4 cups all-purpose flour, plus more for dusting
Filling:
1/2 cup firmly packed light brown sugar
1 Tbsp. ground cinnamon
4 Tbsp. unsalted butter
Topping:
3/4 cup firmly packed light brown sugar
4 Tbsp. unsalted butter
3 Tbsp. honey
1 Tbsp. light corn syrup
1 1/2 cups (6 ounces) coarsely chopped pecans
METHOD
1 Make the dough. In the bowl of an electric mixer, combine warm water, yeast and 1 tsp. sugar. Stir to dissolve and let sit until foamy, about 5 minutes. Here's a good photo and description of what the yeast should look like after several minutes.
Add milk, butter, remaining sugar, egg yolks, orange zest, salt and 3 cups flour. Mix on low speed until blended. Switch to a dough hook and then, again on low speed, slowly incorporate the remaining 1 cup of flour. Increase speed to medium, kneading dough until smooth and slightly sticky (adding a little more flour if too wet), 3 to 5 minutes. Shape the dough into a ball and place in a large, buttered bowl. Turn dough over in bowl to coat with the butter from the bowl. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap. Let rise in a warm place until doubled in volume, about 1 hour (or 2 hours if not in an entirely warm place). After the dough has risen, punch down. Turn out onto a lightly floured cutting board and let sit 20 minutes.

2 Make the filling. Combine brown sugar and cinnamon in a small bowl. Melt butter; keep separate.
3 Roll dough out into a 12" x 18" rectangle. Brush with melted butter and sprinkle with cinnamon-sugar mixture. Starting with the long side, roll dough into a cylinder. Place seam side down on a flat surface and cut crosswise into 15 slices.


4 Make the topping. In a 1-quart saucepan, combine brown sugar, butter, honey and corn syrup over low heat; stir until sugar and butter are melted. Pour mixture into a greased 9" x 13" pan and sprinkle pecans on top.

5 Place dough slices, flat side down, on top of prepared topping. Crowd them so they touch. Cover with plastic wrap, leaving room for the buns to rise, and refrigerate overnight.
6 Remove the rolls from the refrigerator and let stand at room temperature while the oven pre-heats. Preheat oven to 375°. Bake buns until golden, 30 to 35 minutes. Remove pan from oven and immediately (and carefully as not to spill hot topping on your toes!) invert onto a serving tray or baking dish. Let buns cool slightly and serve warm.
That sounds delightful Buzz, why don't you quick run to the kitchen and make a batch??:D


rk

Keith Farmer
05-13-2010, 09:46 PM
Keith, you repeatedly claim a single truth based on your reading of the bible.


Jeff, I am going to respond to your post and then I am done...enough beating the same worn out mule with you guys.

If you look at any of my posts regarding truth I have never claimed that my belief is truth. I have repeatedly stated that God has said in His inspired, infallible, and inerrant Word that His Word is truth (John 17:17...that is one of the books that are known collectively as the gospels). Further, in Psalms it is declared that the entirety of God's Word is truth.

I don't know how much clearer I can be with regards to what truth is...God's Word is the one and only truth because God has declared it so...not me.

Now, you or I can believe God...or not. Our belief, however...one way or the other... does not change what God has stated as being truth. You may prefer that there be more than one truth...but you will have to wrestle with God about the reality of that foolishness...I will take God at His word.

The martyrd reformers who shed their blood to preserve the truth of the bible declared on the basis of the bible itself that we are saved by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone, for the Glory of God Alone...and that the only source of truth for a Christian can and must be God's Word Alone...the bible.

That is what I believe...

Finally:

Christian unity, as described and urged by the Apostle Paul and others, is a precious thing. Fellowship amongst true followers of Christ is needed. However, the problem with what is rapidly coming down the pike in terms of a one world religious system is that system will not be based on God's Word. In fact, the bible says clearly and repeatedly that true Christians...the same kind of folk who are being persecuted now all over the world...will once again be martyrd in large numbers, for their faith in Jesus the Christ, by the adherents of the new world religion.

Revelation 6:9-11 gives an eerie glance into a scene where the martyrd saints of Christ are crying out wondering when God is going to avenge the blood they have shed in His name.These martyrd saints are those who were killed during the Great tribulation when the now talked about global religious system is in full swing..and the bible declares that God indeed will avenge their blood during His final judgement.

Harmonizing the world's religions may be well and good for those who God has said in His Word are enemies of His. However, Christians cannot and must not strive to be in unity with what the book of Revelation calls the great harlot...false religion. She, the harlot, will be judged most harshly as can be read about in Revelation chapter 17.

The one world religious system is rapidly approaching. The global government prophecied thousands of years ago is on our doorsteps. In the name of Christ repent, trust Jesus the Christ as your Lord and saviour, and be saved...that is the cry of every Christian to non-Christians...

Good evening guys...catch you on the next interesting thread,

Kf


.

ducknwork
05-14-2010, 07:14 AM
Catholicism is not biblical Christianity...don't think I or they can make that any clearer.



.

I know you claim you are done, but you are going to have to back this one up Keith. When I did with people like you, I always think of this little tidbit from the Bible...


If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.'[a] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'
John 15:18-25

Or this one...


"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me."
Matt 5:11

Franco
05-14-2010, 09:50 AM
The problem is that, in human communication, that has never been true and it is certainly not true when discussing documents that have been retold orally over a period of centuries before being committed to paper in one set of languages and one era in time, and then translated and re-translated over and over again into different languages, by different people, in different cultures, and in different eras of time. That these pages are then read differently by different eyes and intellects is no surprise. The only surprise would be to find any individual capable of imputing a single vision of the truth to the result.




The Christian Bible is incoherent, is of dubious historicity, teems with period regional mythology or lore, exhibits evolutionary manufacturing artifacts and lacks external, verifiable secular corroboration. As such, it hardly provides the foundation of a rational belief system.

Based on superstition, the kind cults thrive on!

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 09:51 AM
I know you claim you are done, but you are going to have to back this one up Keith.


I changed my mind about being done so I will answer you and at least one more post.

Roman Catholicism is, by its own admission, based on tradition, councils, and Papal decrees. Rome uses the terminology and certain aspects of biblical Christianity to prop up its Babylonian based system of pagan idol worship...but Roman Catholicism is far from being biblical in its scope or its intent.

The entire Roman system is based on the mother/child worship system that was first established in Babylon under the direction of Nimrod after the flood and before God dispersed the various groups into different languages and cultures.

The main disconnect between Roman Catholicism and biblical Christianity...the one that the reformers fought and died for by the millions...is centered around the biblical truth of Imputed Righteousness and Justification by Faith Alone and the opposing Roman Catholic position of infused righteousness, progressive justification, works, the sacraments, mass, and purgatory (to name a few).

Biblical Christianity, as the reformers fought for, is based on the truth that at the cross Jesus took on our sin...our sin was imputed to His account...and when as regenerate chosen children of God we acknowledge His Lordship over our lives we receive His righteousness...His righteousness is imputed to our account...completing the great redemptive work known as the atonement.

Roman Catholicism teaches dogmatically (the entire system depends on this teaching for survival) that converts are infused with a small amount of Jesus' righteousness at baptism, then the process of justification begins and is continued by the convert through the sacraments, attending mass, and practicing works of penance. Then just before the convert dies he is given the last rights. Then (since justification has still not been achieved by nearly every single convert) the convert must enter purgatory to finish paying for his/her own sins. What I have just described is the entire existence for any and every Catholic convert and must be done in such fashion or there is no hope of justification.

In Christianity justification is forensic...God declares us just upon our acceptance by faith alone in the redemptive work of Jesus ALONE. The process of sanctification, growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus our Lord, is a life long synergistic work after justification...which is a monergistic work of God alone.

More about the mass in Catholicism...

Mass is the blasphemous Roman Catholic practice of continually re-sacrificing Jesus. However, In Hebrews 7:27 we discover the biblical truth that Jesus offered His life once for all when he offered Himself up as our supreme sacrifice. Further, in Hebrews 1:3 we discover that Jesus purged our sins by Himself then he sat down as our High Priest. The symbolism of Jesus sitting down is made clear upon studying the history of the priestly role. By sitting down Jesus indicates clearly that the work of redemption was/is complete. There is no more need for a sacrifice!

The golden chain of salvation is found in Romans 8:28-30 Here it is (this is not what Roman Catholicism teaches):

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (ESV)

As anyone who can read may clearly see in the passage above that justification is written in the present perfect tense...meaning that it is complete when God calls His predestined/chosen children to salvation. Justification is not progressive in biblical Christianity...it is in Roman Catholicism.

.

Franco
05-14-2010, 10:07 AM
Roman Catholicism is, by its own admission, based on tradition, councils, and Papal decrees. Rome uses the terminology and certain aspects of biblical Christianity to prop up its Babylonian based system of pagan idol worship...but Roman Catholicism is far from being biblical in its scope or its intent.



Curious as to which pagens they worship?

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 10:27 AM
Aristotle, in proposing his "laws" of logic included the law of contradiction saying, basically, that if A is true, and A is not the same as B, then B cannot be true. While he attempted various proofs of this "law", he was never very successful. Part of the problem was that he depends on the axiom that every expression has a single meaning.



Contradiction defines the limits of intelligible speech. In other words, if we embrace a contradiction as a possibility then we have receded into the absurd and there can be no intelligible understanding of truth...or anything for that matter.

Truth cannot exist in two opposing positions in the same way and in the same relationship...that would be a contradiction and that is not possible.

A paradox on the other hand may exist and may seem to be true but in reality, for this discussion, there can only be one truth.

We speak commonly in our language in what is known as phenomenological terms. For example: I may say to you that I watched the sun rise this morning. You may well understand what I am referring to since we all perceive the same phenomenon. However, everyone who has any education will readily understand that what I said...the sun rose...is incorrect. The sun does not move! What we have is a paradox...the sun seems to be moving from our geocentric perspective but in reality it is we that are moving.

In terms of truth I can draw the same comparison.

God's truth cannot exist entirely and only in the bible AND exist completely and entirely in...the Koran (unless they both contain the exact same data). The bible decalres that God breathed its words and that its writings were written down by men who were moved by God the Holy Spirit. It declares, as I have noted, that it alone is truth and it in its entirety is truth.

The Koran differs greatly in content from the bible...opposing many of the bible's teachings on many levels.

The fact of the conflict that exists between the two books presents us with either a contradiction or a paradox in terms of accepting both books as God's complete truth. If we say that both books are equally God's complete truth when they oppose each other that is a contradiction....and that is not possible. If we say that both books appear to be the truth then that is a paradox and it can be resolved.

One way to resolve the paradox in this case is to place the teachings of each book under scrutiny. This has been done by numerous scholars both for and against each book. The bible has stood the test of scrutiny and has been found reliable on every occasion...especially in terms of its prophetic content. The Koran has been proved to be in error on many historical and theological assertions.

Logically, then, we must arrive at the conclusion that the paradox has been solved...the bible IS God's complete truth as claimed and the Koran is not. Otherwise, asserting that both are equally and in the same way God's complete truth is absurd.


.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 10:30 AM
Curious as to which pagens they worship?


That is funny...


Pagans worship Idols. You really should go take a night class man...your perception skills are somewhat lacking:cool:



.

Franco
05-14-2010, 10:40 AM
That is funny...


Pagans worship Idols. You really should go take a night class man...your perception skills are somewhat lacking:cool:



.

So, the fact that they also pray to Saints is Pagan worship.

It must be exciting to know that only you and your small cult have the exclusive reality.

I suggest that you open your eyes as it will help to free your mind.

Blackstone
05-14-2010, 11:10 AM
Keith,

What is your proof that the bible is the “complete” truth? I am not asking this to be continuous. I am just curious how that can be proven.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 11:28 AM
What is your proof that the bible is the “complete” truth?


For about the 4th time on this thread alone...

John 17:17 (New King James Version)

17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.


and


Psalm 119:160 (New King James Version)


160 The entirety of Your word is truth,
And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.


I accept that based on the faith that He gives me according to Ephesians 2:8-9.

In terms of proof here is one of God's tests from his Word in terms of discerning truth:

First God establishes his sovereignty:

Isaiah 46:9-10 (New King James Version)

9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

He also issues a challenge for all who would be god(s)...


Isaiah 41:22-23 (New King James Version)

22 “ Let them bring forth and show us what will happen;
Let them show the former things, what they were,
That we may consider them,
And know the latter end of them;
Or declare to us things to come.
23 Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are gods;
Yes, do good or do evil,
That we may be dismayed and see it together.


So, you want to know if God is truth? You want to know if His Word is truth...look at the accuracy of the bible in terms of history, the present, and the future (prophetically)...that is one way a skeptic can be assured that God is who He says He is and that His Word alone is truth.


.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 11:29 AM
So, the fact that they also pray to Saints is Pagan worship.



Yes.



.

YardleyLabs
05-14-2010, 11:36 AM
For about the 4th time on this thread alone...

John 17:17 (New King James Version)

17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.


and


Psalm 119:160 (New King James Version)


160 The entirety of Your word is truth,
And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.


I accept that based on the faith that He gives me according to Ephesians 2:8-9.

In terms of proof here is one of God's tests from his Word in terms of discerning truth:

First God establishes his sovereignty:

Isaiah 46:9-10 (New King James Version)

9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

He also issues a challenge for all who would be god(s)...


Isaiah 41:22-23 (New King James Version)

22 “ Let them bring forth and show us what will happen;
Let them show the former things, what they were,
That we may consider them,
And know the latter end of them;
Or declare to us things to come.
23 Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are gods;
Yes, do good or do evil,
That we may be dismayed and see it together.


So, you want to know if God is truth? You want to know if His Word is truth...look at the accuracy of the bible in terms of history, the present, and the future (prophetically)...that is one way a skeptic can be assured that God is who He says He is and that His Word alone is truth.


.
Quoting the bible to prove the truth of the Bible is tautological. One can as easily quote the Koran to prove the truth of the Koran or any other religious document to prove the truth of itself. Belief is ultimately a matter of personal faith, not logic.

Buzz
05-14-2010, 12:01 PM
OK, the misinformation on this thread is starting to piss me off.

To say that Catholics pray to idols is pure and unadulterated bull.

We do not pray to saints, we pray with them, and we ask them to pray for us.

Here is a little ditty that I copied off of www.catholic.org


Do Catholics pray TO saints?

We pray with saints, not to them.
Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person?

You may have chosen someone you could trust, or someone who understood your problem, or someone who was close to God. Those are all reasons we ask saints to pray for us in times of trouble.

Since saints led holy lives and are close to God in heaven, we feel that their prayers are particularly effective. Often we ask particular saints to pray for us if we feel they have a particular interest in our problem. For example, many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers, because Monica prayed for twenty years for her son to be converted. Finally her prayers were answered in a way she never dreamed of -- her son, Augustine, became a canonized saint and a Doctor of the Church.


I should be ignoring this thread. Arguing misinformation in politics is bad enough. Attacking my Religion with misinformation is WAY WAY over the line.

ducknwork
05-14-2010, 12:21 PM
Good for you Buzz for refuting some of the garbage that Keith is spewing. I am not going to bother with this discussion.

Keith, thank you for answering my question. I wholeheartedly disagree with you on every point, but I am not going to concern myself with continuing the 'argument'. I have dealt with people that have misconceptions, misinformation, prejudices, and ignorance about my religion all of my life and it accomplishes nothing to try to help them understand, especially when a mind is as closed as yours is.

Hey, how about a bet...I say Catholicism is right. You say it's wrong.

If you win, I will go to hell for being Catholic. So will you for being judgmental...

If I win, I will not be going to hell. You will for being judgmental.


To steal a line from DNF...

Have a nice day!

Blackstone
05-14-2010, 01:11 PM
Quoting the bible to prove the truth of the Bible is tautological. One can as easily quote the Koran to prove the truth of the Koran or any other religious document to prove the truth of itself. Belief is ultimately a matter of personal faith, not logic.

I was just thinking the same thing. I guess I was expecting something more along the lines of empirical proof

Koolaid
05-14-2010, 03:03 PM
I was just thinking the same thing. I guess I was expecting something more along the lines of empirical proof

If actual evidence existed I don't think this conversation would be taking place. Faith is making a virtue out of not thinking. I'm stealing that from someone but I forget who.

Blackstone
05-14-2010, 03:11 PM
If actual evidence existed I don't think this conversation would be taking place. Faith is making a virtue out of not thinking. I'm stealing that from someone but I forget who.

Keith said he had proof. I wanted to know what it was. Just because because I have not seen actual evidence, it doesn't mean that none exists.

YardleyLabs
05-14-2010, 03:17 PM
If actual evidence existed I don't think this conversation would be taking place. Faith is making a virtue out of not thinking. I'm stealing that from someone but I forget who.
"Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about." - Bill Maher, Religulous

While I am an atheist, I've never been able to watch this movie all the way through simply because Maher is as unreasonably extreme in his views as....well...Keith. Maher condemns religion for the violence performed in its name. That makes no more sense than condemning atheists for violence performed by Communist Russia.

People commit violence for their own purposes. Blaming it (or justifying it) on God is simply one of the many excuses used for the inexcusable. I believe that people need to accept full responsibility for what they do personally. That responsibility is not mitigated by orders, or God, or the "justness" of the cause. You may decide that evil behavior is necessary in a particular context. However, the justification does not change the fact that the action were still evil.

Koolaid
05-14-2010, 03:29 PM
Someone said it long before him.

I don't buy the whole Stalin was an atheist argument. While that's another story for another day, communist Russia was purposefully molded to resemble a theocracy by Stalin. Hitchens does a good write up about this, but I can't seem to find it atm.

In terms of your last paragraph, I think he puts it best right here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TnA3b8MhD0

BonMallari
05-14-2010, 03:31 PM
Would you guys all stop for a second and listen to yourselves..You guys are all arguing over whose view of Christianity is more correct..and then you wonder why the Muslim religion is dominating the rest of the world..you guys are in a urinating match that no one can win. You may not like or agree with each other's choice of Christianity or its interpretation...but the bottom line is all of you are right ...and all of you are wrong..

I admire Keith for being so well read in HIS version of the Bible,and his convictions of his faith, but his trying to convert those of you that come from a different denomination is a lesson in futility....but when call his version "garbage",does that mean he is wrong and that you are right...

I think you are all on the same side of the fence to some extent, and yet you're fighting amongst yourselves..wake up people, if you continue down that path, your real enemies will prevail..

Franco
05-14-2010, 03:39 PM
Would you guys all stop for a second and listen to yourselves..You guys are all arguing over whose view of Christianity is more correct..and then you wonder why the Muslim religion is dominating the rest of the world..you guys are in a urinating match that no one can win. You may not like or agree with each other's choice of Christianity or its interpretation...but the bottom line is all of you are right ...and all of you are wrong..

I admire Keith for being so well read in HIS version of the Bible,and his convictions of his faith, but his trying to convert those of you that come from a different denomination is a lesson in futility....but when call his version "garbage",does that mean he is wrong and that you are right...

I think you are all on the same side of the fence to some extent, and yet you're fighting amongst yourselves..wake up people, if you continue down that path, your real enemies will prevail..

Muslims are fighting amongst themselves as to which sect has it correct. Years from now, neither Christianity nor Islam will stand because the foundations of both are not only faulty but, based on the superstitions of ancient man.

And, Humanity will be better off without them!

BonMallari
05-14-2010, 03:51 PM
Muslims are fighting amongst themselves as to which sect has it correct. Years from now, neither Christianity nor Islam will stand because the foundations of both are not only faulty but, based on the superstitions of ancient man.

And, Humanity will be better off without them!

Franco , I realize that you are a Deist, but if your prediction is correct then the world as we know it will cease to exist, and that serves no one

ducknwork
05-14-2010, 03:58 PM
but when call his version "garbage",does that mean he is wrong and that you are right...

Bon, what I was calling garbage are the lies that he is telling about the Catholic Church. He can believe what he wants and I will not attack his religous beliefs, (as he has done to several of us on POTUS) but he should not tell the blatant lies that he is spewing.

LIES=GARBAGE

And in case you haven't noticed, we aren't exactly arguing about whose Christianity is better...Keith is telling us that our version is a 'whore', 'the beast', 'false', etc etc, but Buzz and I (and those who chose to not respond at all in Catholicism's defense) aren't exactly arguing back. It seems that at least some of us know better than to waste our breath and are attempting to be tolerant of others...Who seems to be acting more like a Christian here?:cool:

road kill
05-14-2010, 04:01 PM
Would you guys all stop for a second and listen to yourselves..You guys are all arguing over whose view of Christianity is more correct..and then you wonder why the Muslim religion is dominating the rest of the world..you guys are in a urinating match that no one can win. You may not like or agree with each other's choice of Christianity or its interpretation...but the bottom line is all of you are right ...and all of you are wrong..

I admire Keith for being so well read in HIS version of the Bible,and his convictions of his faith, but his trying to convert those of you that come from a different denomination is a lesson in futility....but when call his version "garbage",does that mean he is wrong and that you are right...

I think you are all on the same side of the fence to some extent, and yet you're fighting amongst yourselves..wake up people, if you continue down that path, your real enemies will prevail..

Bon, I know 2 things for sure.

#1--There is a God.
#2--I ain't him.

Oh and 1 more thing;
#3--He ain't on this board.


rk

YardleyLabs
05-14-2010, 04:04 PM
Franco , I realize that you are a Deist, but if your prediction is correct then the world as we know it will cease to exist, and that serves no one
Bon,

I'm not sure what your point is. Our world is changing all the time. The world did not stop making sense when Greece sank into oblivion or when the Persian empire collapsed. We survived the fall of Rome and even the middle ages. There is no historical reason to believe that the era of American hegemony will last another century, or that Christianity, which is now identified with two-thirds of the world's population (in versions that vary widely), will ever grow stronger. Does that make the world senseless?

BonMallari
05-14-2010, 04:08 PM
Bon, I know 2 things for sure.

#1--There is a God.
#2--I ain't him.

Oh and 1 more thing;
#3--He ain't on this board.


rk

OK ,I guess my feeble attempt at playing peacemaker didnt work, I just dont like seeing people that I like,who all mean well arguing over something that isnt going to get resolved on POTUS..just trying to get everyone to stop before they cross that perverbial line of no return...

road kill
05-14-2010, 04:09 PM
OK ,I guess my feeble attempt at playing peacemaker didnt work, I just dont like seeing people that I like,who all mean well arguing over something that isnt going to get resolved on POTUS..just trying to get everyone to stop before they cross that perverbial line of no return...
Well, that was my feeble way of agreeing with you!


stan b

Koolaid
05-14-2010, 04:18 PM
Muslims are fighting amongst themselves as to which sect has it correct. Years from now, neither Christianity nor Islam will stand because the foundations of both are not only faulty but, based on the superstitions of ancient man.

And, Humanity will be better off without them!

Is an amen appropriate?

Franco
05-14-2010, 04:18 PM
Franco , I realize that you are a Deist, but if your prediction is correct then the world as we know it will cease to exist, and that serves no one

Bon, I actually believe the world would be a better place to live and not the end.

Just look at all the hate among religions. Even on this thread, hate among the various Christian sects. One claiming they have the real religion.

Religion has done some good in the world. But, when you have missionaries trying to convert indiginous peoples to thier religion, religion holding back man's attempt to find medical cures, religion attempting to hold back progress such as world population control, the religious trying to tell other people how they have to live, people blowing themselves up in the name of thier god, on and on and on!

BonMallari
05-14-2010, 04:19 PM
Bon,

I'm not sure what your point is. Our world is changing all the time. The world did not stop making sense when Greece sank into oblivion or when the Persian empire collapsed. We survived the fall of Rome and even the middle ages. There is no historical reason to believe that the era of American hegemony will last another century, or that Christianity, which is now identified with two-thirds of the world's population (in versions that vary widely), will ever grow stronger. Does that make the world senseless?

It just seemed to me that Franco showing some delight in the destruction of both Christianity and Islam, since he agrees with neither..the world isnt senseless but this thread has headed in that direction

Franco
05-14-2010, 04:21 PM
Is an amen appropriate?



That's a BIG 10 four!

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 05:01 PM
Wow...leave you guys alone for a minute and look at the mess you create:p

I'll address a few of the remarks:


First:




To say that Catholics pray to idols is pure and unadulterated bull.







Pope prays at Fatima shrine, urges clergy to maintain ‘priestly ideals’




Here is the full article. There is so much evidence that Catholics pray to, worship, and promote idols that the comment you made is just ignorance. Not being snarky...but it is obvious that you are not really up on the Roman system. I suggest you objectively study the Roman Catholic dogmas, their catechism, their history, their councils, etc and discover for yourself the reality of what they really teach.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2010/05/13/pope_prays_at_fatima_shrine_cites_church_suffering s/






.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 05:08 PM
You guys are all arguing over whose view of Christianity is more correct


Thanks for your efforts Bon.

I am not arguing for my view. I am simply stating what the bible says. The other side of the debate here is arguing from external sources and probably have never even read the bible.

I have stated time and again my view is irrelevant to truth. God has stated in His Word what He deems as being truth. One can accept or deny that claim. I accept it based on gifted faith as noted previously. Does my acceptance make it truth? No. But God has claimed His Word truth regardless.

How hard is that to understand?


I will say it one more time for emphasis: God has claimed that His Word is truth. Believe it or not that is the claim.



.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 05:14 PM
Quoting the bible to prove the truth of the Bible is tautological.


I did not quote the bible to prove the bible. I said, if you are capable of reading correctly, that God gave instructions as to how He can be proved via testing. Such testing has been done extensively and God has been proved trustworthy again and again.

I challenge you to do something really difficult...read the bible objectively for yourself. Not just a few pages. Not just a couple of interesting books. Read it, study it, meditate upon it for years. Strive as an athelete strives at perfection to strain every truth or every lie from its pages...then come back and give me a report.

I challenge you to disprove God by refuting His truth claims in an objective fashion. Prove that God is not who He says He is based on your personal experience with Him...not with a snarky claim or two or a few quotes from some atheistic guru of yours. Prove God wrong via the tests He gave in His Word.

Otherwise all you are doing is making claims against the bible from a position of ignorance...kind of like our AG making claims against the Arizona immigration law when he admittedly has never read it!

I'll leave you with this Jeff:

Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”




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Buzz
05-14-2010, 05:37 PM
Wow...leave you guys alone for a minute and look at the mess you create:p

I'll address a few of the remarks:


First:







Here is the full article. There is so much evidence that Catholics pray to, worship, and promote idols that the comment you made is just ignorance. Not being snarky...but it is obvious that you are not really up on the Roman system. I suggest you objectively study the Roman Catholic dogmas, their catechism, their history, their councils, etc and discover for yourself the reality of what they really teach.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2010/05/13/pope_prays_at_fatima_shrine_cites_church_suffering s/

.

Wow! Praying before a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary is idol worship?


What about praying TO Mary? What's that about?

Many Evangelicals think the word "pray" means "worship." So it makes sense that they think Catholics who "pray" to Mary actually "worship" her. Let's look up the word "pray" in the dictionary. Here is what Webster's says about the word pray:

(1) To utter petition to God ... (2) To make a fervent request: PLEAD (3) To beseech: implore (4) to make a devout or earnest request for.

The first thing to notice is that the word "worship" is not included in the definition of "pray." It does not mean "worship." A prayer to Mary is clearly not a petition to God. Mary is not God, and there is not one faithful Catholic since the apostles who has said she is. So clearly it is not the first meaning.

The English language is often limited in that we often have to use the same word to say different things. There are several meanings of the word "pray." When Catholics pray to God they "utter a petition to God." When they pray to Mary and the Saints they are making a "devout or earnest request for" prayers from Mary or the saints.


The hail Mary prayer outright ASKS HER TO PRAY FOR US


Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 05:49 PM
Wow! Praying before a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary is idol worship?




What do you call it Buzz?

Here is the biblical foundation for not praying to Mary, a statue of Mary, a dead saint, your uncle, an angel, rosary beads, or anyone/thing else:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

Now we have a problem. Either we can accept what the bible teaches in that Jesus the Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man...or we can accept what Catholic tradition teaches and pray to whatever we wish.

I urge you to break with tradition, read the bible for yourself (you know... millions of men died so you have that luxury!!!), and, as 1 Corinthians 10:14 says: Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.



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Buzz
05-14-2010, 07:37 PM
What do you call it Buzz?

Here is the biblical foundation for not praying to Mary, a statue of Mary, a dead saint, your uncle, an angel, rosary beads, or anyone/thing else:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

Now we have a problem. Either we can accept what the bible teaches in that Jesus the Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man...or we can accept what Catholic tradition teaches and pray to whatever we wish.

I urge you to break with tradition, read the bible for yourself (you know... millions of men died so you have that luxury!!!), and, as 1 Corinthians 10:14 says: Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.



.


You'll find the Catholic Church's position here.

http://www.totustuus.com/interces.htm

It's clear that you're just anti-Catholic.

I'm done here.

road kill
05-14-2010, 07:42 PM
Yeah, this thread is played out.




rk

YardleyLabs
05-14-2010, 07:45 PM
What do you call it Buzz?

Here is the biblical foundation for not praying to Mary, a statue of Mary, a dead saint, your uncle, an angel, rosary beads, or anyone/thing else:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

Now we have a problem. Either we can accept what the bible teaches in that Jesus the Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man...or we can accept what Catholic tradition teaches and pray to whatever we wish.

I urge you to break with tradition, read the bible for yourself (you know... millions of men died so you have that luxury!!!), and, as 1 Corinthians 10:14 says: Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.



.
Based on that, the whole focus on the cross would also have to be termed idol worship.

Keith, your challenge doesn't interest me. My question would be "Why bother?" Belief in God is a choice. You have made yours and I have made mine. I have read the Bible, both cover to cover and verses at a time. I have also read the Koran, and spent a fair amount of time studying the classics built on Greek and Roman mythology. I read them all with the same attitude. They are culturally important documents that have or have had religious significance to huge numbers of people and have been important to the development of western literature and culture. Each provides insights on life, but the notion of divine inspiration is simply meaningless to me. It is not even a question that I consider important to answer.

People believe what they have been raised to believe or what they have elected to believe. My friends and family include Hindus, Muslims, Christians, deists, pagans, wiccans, agnostics, Buddhists, and atheists. I respect all of their religious views equally. For myself, however, I was an atheist when I was five and have seen no reason to change since then. I have no problem with anybody's religious views until they begin to seek government support for their beliefs or seek to use the power of the state to obtain preferential treatment of their beliefs over the beliefs of others. Happily, we live in a country where that is illegal.

When I was a kid, one of the requirements of the church my parents attended was that kids in the church attend services at all of the other churches in our town. That was in the 1950's and our town was deeply affected by the civil rights movement. The town had a population of 30,000 and 37 churches. I enjoyed attending all but one of the churches -- a Baptist church where the minister denounced the civil rights movement as a crime against God. He noted that the scriptures were clear and handed out copies of the story printed by the national church organization. God destroyed the Tower of Babel and divided mankind into different races and languages with the intention that they should never come together to challenge the heavens again. I was about 10 at the time and that sermon affected me deeply. It taught me that people will exploit anything to further hatred. I believe that we all have a moral responsibility to reject such "teachers" and to denounce them for the bigotry they preach.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 10:58 PM
Keith, your challenge doesn't interest me.

I have read the Bible, both cover to cover and verses at a time.


The first sentence I believe...

.

Keith Farmer
05-14-2010, 11:22 PM
You'll find the Catholic Church's position here.



I asked for your take Buzz; not the Catholic Church's "position"...

You guys challenged me to defend my position with regards to Roman Catholicism not being biblical Christianity. I have given you specific doctrinal differences; the existence of which are not in dispute within either protestantism or Romanism...

The Roman Catholic Church's position is the same it has always been. Look at the efforts of Evangelicals and Catholics Together. This organized group of representatives from both sides of the argument came together to try and reconcile differences between Rome and Evangelicals. The dividing line once again was drawn between infused righteousness and imputed righteousness. The entire Roman system is based on works righteousness as I described previously. It is a system of bondage as any Catholic knows.

Finally, and I am done with this as well...

Am I against Roman Catholicism? Yes.

Do I "hate" Catholics? Absolutely not!

In fact, if hatred were my motivation the course I would take would be to keep silent and let the idolotrous religion have its way with whomever it will...but that is not my motivation, and I am not alone in my sentiments!

I'll leave you with a few Charles Spurgeon quotes concerning Romanism:

One reason why Romanism is so popular is because it allows a man to get a deputy
to do his thinking for him, and to do his praying for him; but what a poor affair it is
with the man who keeps his brains in somebody else’s head, and carries his heart in
somebody else’s bosom! 3263.389

We would as soon worship cats with the Egyptians, as popes with the Romanists: we
see no difference between the people whose gods grew in their gardens and the sect
whose deity is made by their baker. 1023.664

We must warn with judicious boldness those who are inclined towards the errors of
Rome; we must instruct the young in gospel truth, and tell them of the black doings
of Popery in the olden times. ME301

I question if hell can find a more fitting instrument within its infernal lake than the
Church of Rome is for the cause of mischief. And your church will in its measure, be
the same if bereft of the Spirit. 649.510

Did the apostles preach the sacrifice of Christ?—the devil’s apostles preached the
sacrifice of the mass. Did the saints uplift the cross?—the devil’s servants upheld the
crucifix. Did God’s ministers speak of Jesus as the one infallible Head of the
Church?—the devil’s servants proclaimed the false priest of Rome as standing in the
self-same place. Romanism is a most ingenious imitation of the gospel: it is the
magicians “doing do with their enchantments.” 657.604





.

JDogger
05-15-2010, 12:35 AM
I think this thread should be renamed;

"Swami Kai Kieth unrolls his mat, and illuminates the unclean and unwashed of PP, those

with dung between their toes, all ignorant of the classical examples of the past, with his shining vision."http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/JDoggger/smilies/love0030.gif

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/JDoggger/smilies/indifferent0015.gifJD

Koolaid
05-15-2010, 10:47 AM
The first sentence I believe...

.

I know eh? Cause if he read it cover to cover clearly he wouldn't be arguing with you? We all know that tertiary recordings of a almost 2000 year old book are the word of god and unquestionable.