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depittydawg
05-18-2010, 09:47 PM
The mantra of 21st century capitalism is to privatize profit and socialize losses. Who will pay for all the fisherman, tourism, and small business losses because of the BP screw up? You got it, the federal, states and local governments. In the way of Unemployment and as many other services as are required for survival for the thousands that will no doubt lose their sources of income because of BP. What's wrong with this model of business?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100518/ap_on_re_us/us_gulf_oil_spill_commercial_fishing

Franco
05-18-2010, 10:49 PM
Harlon Pearce use to be a member of the So. La. Ret. Club back in the early 1970's, here is his quote from the article you posted.

Harlon Pearce, chairman of the Louisiana Seafood Promotion and Marketing Board, the latest closure is as much a public relations problem as an impediment to business. He stressed that seafood from the areas not closed is still available and safe to eat. Roughly 60 percent of the state's oyster production areas were still open, Pearce said, and he expected the expanded federal closure to affect fishermen working off the Alabama and Mississippi coasts more than those from Louisiana.

end quote

The oyster beds were suppose to be the first to go. Looks like the leak is heading more southeast than north.

Sen. Boxer is having AG Eric Holder research if any Criminal charges are appropriate.

BP has moved to have all the claims/suits filed in Texas. Hundreds of attorneys are circling in the water signing clients. This has the makings of being the biggest lawsuit in history.

Socialism, no. We are dealing with a disaster with the Fed Gov failing to have strong enough oversight on drilling in deep water.

I am 100% for safe drilling. There are no excuses for all the failure/stop messures in this situation. If we don't have the technology to stop a leak at 5,000 feet, then we shouldn't be drilling at 5,000 feet.

I'd say our government, which is too big has failed us again!

zeus3925
05-18-2010, 11:24 PM
Harlon Pearce use to be a member of the So. La. Ret. Club back in the early 1970's, here is his quote from the article you posted.

Harlon Pearce, chairman of the Louisiana Seafood Promotion and Marketing Board, the latest closure is as much a public relations problem as an impediment to business. He stressed that seafood from the areas not closed is still available and safe to eat. Roughly 60 percent of the state's oyster production areas were still open, Pearce said, and he expected the expanded federal closure to affect fishermen working off the Alabama and Mississippi coasts more than those from Louisiana.

end quote

The oyster beds were suppose to be the first to go. Looks like the leak is heading more southeast than north.

Sen. Boxer is having AG Eric Holder research if any Criminal charges are appropriate.

BP has moved to have all the claims/suits filed in Texas. Hundreds of attorneys are circling in the water signing clients. This has the makings of being the biggest lawsuit in history.

Socialism, no. We are dealing with a disaster with the Fed Gov failing to have strong enough oversight on drilling in deep water.

I am 100% for safe drilling. There are no excuses for all the failure/stop messures in this situation. If we don't have the technology to stop a leak at 5,000 feet, then we shouldn't be drilling at 5,000 feet.

I'd say our government, which is too big has failed us again!

It isn't big enough to keep coal mines from exploding, oil wells going haywire, rivers from being polluted, and the brokerage houses from imploding.

I want a government to ride herd on such things. I am willing to pay for it so long as it is efficient and effective. If you let industry self- regulate, then you have no oversight and bad things happen.

It seems that all the government agencies responsible for oversight have been bled white to the point that they don't function. Political appointees that are too weak to stand up to these super-companies have exacerbated the problem. It has become a bit like the elephant to the ant: Let's not step on each other.

depittydawg
05-18-2010, 11:53 PM
Harlon Pearce use to be a member of the So. La. Ret. Club back in the early 1970's, here is his quote from the article you posted.

Harlon Pearce, chairman of the Louisiana Seafood Promotion and Marketing Board, the latest closure is as much a public relations problem as an impediment to business. He stressed that seafood from the areas not closed is still available and safe to eat. Roughly 60 percent of the state's oyster production areas were still open, Pearce said, and he expected the expanded federal closure to affect fishermen working off the Alabama and Mississippi coasts more than those from Louisiana.

end quote

The oyster beds were suppose to be the first to go. Looks like the leak is heading more southeast than north.

Sen. Boxer is having AG Eric Holder research if any Criminal charges are appropriate.

BP has moved to have all the claims/suits filed in Texas. Hundreds of attorneys are circling in the water signing clients. This has the makings of being the biggest lawsuit in history.

Socialism, no. We are dealing with a disaster with the Fed Gov failing to have strong enough oversight on drilling in deep water.

I am 100% for safe drilling. There are no excuses for all the failure/stop messures in this situation. If we don't have the technology to stop a leak at 5,000 feet, then we shouldn't be drilling at 5,000 feet.

I'd say our government, which is too big has failed us again!

I'd say you're correct. But the Corporation of BP, and the industry at large needs to foot the bill for this disaster. It's easy to blame the government, and they certainly deserve some, at least that's what the President has said also.
But if BP needs to go bankrupt over this, then let it be so. And if the Federal government needs to spend billions, not only to clean this mess up, but to provide oversight in the future, than every oil company needs to foot that bill. And of course that means we, the consumers, pay more for Oil / Gas. That difference, the cost of the cleanup and all its ramifications, and of the oversight required of an industry that can't regulate itself, which will be born by taxpayers and NOT the oil industry or its consumers, is the socialized cost.

Buzz
05-19-2010, 12:17 AM
The problem is politicians taking money from those they regulate.

pat addis
05-19-2010, 06:23 AM
i'm courious i have read that this oil rig was 150 mi off shore. why do we have any control over it? i thought we only controled 20 mi off shore.i want this cleaned up but was just wondering

road kill
05-19-2010, 07:05 AM
The problem is politicians taking money from those they regulate.

BINGO!!!



rk

Franco
05-19-2010, 07:44 AM
i'm courious i have read that this oil rig was 150 mi off shore. why do we have any control over it? i thought we only controled 20 mi off shore.i want this cleaned up but was just wondering

The northern Gulf Of Mexico has always been considered U S waters.

If you draw a line from the tip of Florida to Brownsville, Tx, everything north of that line is ours.

Henry V
05-19-2010, 08:58 AM
The problem is politicians taking money from those they regulate.
This is but one big problem and since corporations are now held on par as ordinary citizens for campaign contributions this problem is not going to go away anytime soon.

Another is that some Presidential administrations full of corporate insiders appoint corporate insiders to run regulatory agencies and in positions that influence policy. For example,
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0523-02.htm
http://www.webexhibits.org/bush/14.html
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/TiesThatBind.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/08/politics/08climate.html?pagewanted=print

Another is the fact that big industries like BP, coal, big pharma, wall street, etc, etc, have legions of lobbyists infiltrating the lawmaking and rulemaking processes so that laws intended to have some teeth are strategically weakened with loopholes and exemptions that only benefit the biggest folks in the industry.

Another is the fact that so many of these lobbyists are former administrators of regulatory agencies and government insiders.. For example, http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-05-19-newjobs_N.htm

It happens in many administrations.

Regulatory agencies can work. Regulations can be based on science and experience. Regulations can be enforced. Politics is why they don't and then the politicians complain about ineffective government and the corporations/industry wins in the short term while society is left holding the bag for the long term impacts.

duckheads
05-19-2010, 10:25 AM
If I may ask a question, isn't BP one of Obama's biggest financial supporters for quite some time now?

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0505/obama-biggest-recipient-bp-political-action-money-20-years/

So why is YourHolyness getting a pass? Why isn't Obama doing something?

dnf777
05-19-2010, 10:42 AM
BP has moved to have all the claims/suits filed in Texas. Hundreds of attorneys are circling in the water signing clients. This has the makings of being the biggest lawsuit in history.

I am 100% for safe drilling. There are no excuses for all the failure/stop messures in this situation. If we don't have the technology to stop a leak at 5,000 feet, then we shouldn't be drilling at 5,000 feet.

I'd say our government, which is too big has failed us again!




I hear the dockets are already booked to 2014 on this matter.

I don't want to be accused of bringing up past history, but maybe since you seem very well-versed on oil drilling could state who and what administration allowed this self-policing by the oil companies? I honestly don't know. I know Obama has allowed it to continue, if he wasn't the one who put this current set of regulations in place. He certainly should have paid more attention this matter, since he hasn't had much else to deal with since taking office.

Franco
05-19-2010, 11:00 AM
I hear the dockets are already booked to 2014 on this matter.

I don't want to be accused of bringing up past history, but maybe since you seem very well-versed on oil drilling could state who and what administration allowed this self-policing by the oil companies? I honestly don't know. I know Obama has allowed it to continue, if he wasn't the one who put this current set of regulations in place. He certainly should have paid more attention this matter, since he hasn't had much else to deal with since taking office.

It been that way since drilling in the gulf began and MMS as of late. Yes, the MMS was asleep at the wheel just like the Securities and Exchange Commission and Immigration Services.

Then you have to ask; Why was MMS not doing thier job. I'd have to say things have been so cozy for so long. Thousands and thousands of offshore wells drilled with no major accidents tends to lead to complacency.

As far as all the law suits; BP has made a motion to have all suits filed in Texas, where thier U S corporate is located. Louisiana is moving to have the suits filed in La. The PI attorney's are doing backflips as they circle over all those wanting to file suit.

The final investigation should be interesting. I don't see how BP can dodge being at fault if the CBS reports are factual. That story has been in the local press for the last three weeks. There could be some fault as well with the drilling comapny subcontracted to handle the job. I don't see how Hallibuton will be implicated.

Julie R.
05-19-2010, 11:30 AM
i'm courious i have read that this oil rig was 150 mi off shore. why do we have any control over it? i thought we only controled 20 mi off shore.i want this cleaned up but was just wondering

You're thinking of our territorial zone; international law provides for countries to claim dominion over resources out to 200 miles in what's called an exclusive economic zone. Unlike territorial zone you cannot prohibit passage of foreign-flag ships in that 200 miles, but you control or "own" the resources there like minerals, oil & gas, fish, etc., except for migratory species.

Buzz
05-19-2010, 11:51 AM
On Krugman's Blog, he has some interesting comments along these lines:


Why Libertarianism Doesn’t Work, Part N

Thinking about BP and the Gulf: in this old interview, Milton Friedman says that there’s no need for product safety regulation, because corporations know that if they do harm they’ll be sued.

Interviewer: So tort law takes care of a lot of this ..

Friedman: Absolutely, absolutely.

Meanwhile, in the real world:




In the wake of last month’s catastrophic Gulf Coast oil spill, Sen. Lisa Murkowski blocked a bill that would have raised the maximum liability for oil companies after a spill from a paltry $75 million to $10 billion. The Republican lawmaker said the bill, introduced by Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ), would have unfairly hurt smaller oil companies by raising the costs of oil production. The legislation is “not where we need to be right now” she said.

And don’t say that we just need better politicians. If libertarianism requires incorruptible politicians to work, it’s not serious.

Gerry Clinchy
05-19-2010, 11:58 AM
Henry V

Regulatory agencies can work. Regulations can be based on science and experience. Regulations can be enforced. Politics is why they don't and then the politicians complain about ineffective government and the corporations/industry wins in the short term while society is left holding the bag for the long term impacts.



Another is that some Presidential administrations full of corporate insiders appoint corporate insiders to run regulatory agencies and in positions that influence policy.

BP will pay ... to clean it up & to fight the lawsuits. As mentioned, maybe this astronomical cost could cause them to fail. If they don't fail, I'd like to know who will lose their jobs for screwing up.

I'd also like to know who in the regulatory agency will lose his/her job for screwing up equally badly in their job.

There has got to be a better way to choose the people who are to monitor the regulations. As long as they are chosen on a political basis, they are simply part of the political system.

It may even be time for criminal negligence against the bureaucrats who participated. Just losing their jobs doesn't seem enough as it hasn't changed anything so far (I'd venture a guess that some of them don't even lose their jobs!)

I don't expect a POTUS to be directly involved in monitoring every aspect of everything. That is what cabinet members are for ... and their underlings right down the line. The POTUS' responsbility is to choose people of integrity and knowledge for their respective posts.

Henry V
05-19-2010, 12:00 PM
Buzz, what was I saying about loopholes and exemptions??? I wonder if any of the bill opponents can name a "small" oil company that is currently doing cutting edge deep water drilling or is proposing to do it. They are opposing regulations in the name of protecting companies that do not and cannot exist. The end result is protecting the corporations that are too big to be held accountable.

depittydawg
05-19-2010, 12:25 PM
The problem is politicians taking money from those they regulate.

I would also add the fact that the "regulatory" agencies have been staffed with Industry insiders. This was never intended to be the case. It has been an escalating practice for about 30 years that I know of.

Henry V
05-19-2010, 12:35 PM
Gerry,

I mostly agree with your assessment. BP may be held accountable in the long run but, if past history is a guide, they will really only pay a portion of the total cost to society. We have numerous examples of corporate socialism where the profits are privatized and costs externalized to society all the while their taxes are lower.

There are many examples at the local, state, and federal level where industry and development interests have had a tremendous influence on the rules and laws that govern their activities and on the enforcement of these rules and laws. In my direct experience on multiple occasions, when citizens and organizations want to strengthen the laws and their enforcement, the potentially affected industry or interest will gear up an all out campaign to stop implementation of any reasonable changes. This campaign includes direct engagement with government officials (even at the county level) to generate opposition or water down proposals and a media campaign that suggests that the industry will be completely shut-down if such rules/laws were put in place and that there will be incredible loss in economic development and tax revenue. Anyone that proposes changes needs to have a very effective strategy to get even part of their changes put in place. In most situations the deck is stacked against reasonable and effective regulations. It take a big disaster to even get some minor changes (e.g. banking reform, mining reform, worker safety, food safety, rivers on fire, etc.....).

dnf777
05-19-2010, 12:53 PM
Here's my gripe. If I screwed up in my job as bad as BP did in theirs, with no plans to control damage.....I'd no longer be in business, and unable to get back into business, short of changing my identity!!

I'm sure most small-business owners and entrepreneurs on this forum, upon self reflection, would realize the same.

Difference is, BP may pay big fines (although less than their profits) and will remain in business, with only a minor speed bump to deal with.

aandw
05-19-2010, 01:19 PM
i think some of ya'll should take a deep breath. this will not be the end of the world or the coast. is it a disaster? yes, but the environment affected by this will rebound. should bp pay for the clean up? i think 100%. i also think fines should be levied accordingly, knowingly taking short cuts or ignoring safety precautions is one thing. if this is the case then criminal charges should be filed at the correct person/people. but i think accidents happen some worse than others. hopefully the industry will figure out what caused this and fix it.
some of you don't like people from a industry regulating the same industry. i agree to a point, but where does the "science and experience" come from if not them?

Julie R.
05-19-2010, 01:39 PM
... some of you don't like people from a industry regulating the same industry. i agree to a point, but where does the "science and experience" come from if not them?

And therein lies another problem: As fast as these same bureaucrats and politicians are appointing their buddies to oversee their own industries, they're also dumbing down our schools to pander to the lowest common denominator. It's a safe bet the pool of qualified regulators with the necessary experience won't be coming from our public education system, they'll almost have to be industry insiders.

Franco
05-19-2010, 01:49 PM
And therein lies another problem: As fast as these same bureaucrats and politicians are appointing their buddies to oversee their own industries, they're also dumbing down our schools to pander to the lowest common denominator. It's a safe bet the pool of qualified regulators with the necessary experience won't be coming from our public education system, they'll almost have to be industry insiders.

Public Education has been in the toilet since the mid-60's and Intergration.

The intended Intergration didn't happen and public schools for the most part are nothing more than a breeding grounds for a Hip Hop Nation and with high school graduates reading below a 3rd grade level.

Those that could afford to send thier kids to private schools did while the public system was brought down to the lowest common denominator. Subjecting poorer non-blacks to the Hip Hop Culture and malcontent lifestyle!

Travel just about anywhere in the old south or mid-west and public schools are as segregated as they ever were. The difference being that tax payers can no longer send thier kids to public school.

Henry V
05-19-2010, 02:03 PM
And therein lies another problem: As fast as these same bureaucrats and politicians are appointing their buddies to oversee their own industries, they're also dumbing down our schools to pander to the lowest common denominator. It's a safe bet the pool of qualified regulators with the necessary experience won't be coming from our public education system, they'll almost have to be industry insiders.
Bull. The same engineers and scientists that go to work for BP, pharmaceutical companies, mining companies, chemical companies, etc, in order to figure out how to best design and produce a given product for the lowest costs are exactly the same type of people that have the skills and capacity to work in the public sector as regulators. They just have to accept a fraction of the pay.
How exactly is the government dumbing down public education? We have "no child left behind"? I'll grant you that we have turned our back on funding higher education so that banks could make more subsidized profits, but dumbing down, I do not see it.

Terry Britton
05-19-2010, 02:08 PM
The final investigation should be interesting. I don't see how BP can dodge being at fault if the CBS reports are factual. That story has been in the local press for the last three weeks. There could be some fault as well with the drilling comapny subcontracted to handle the job. I don't see how Hallibuton will be implicated.

There will be other companies dragged into this mess as well as such as whoever made the Blowout Preventors (BOP's). I know GE makes some BOP's such as this one http://www.hydril.com/pressureControl/BOP/BOP.php . Then there is the case where subcontractors delivered subpar materials, or the BOP was installed wrong, and so forth....

Franco
05-19-2010, 02:09 PM
Bull. The same engineers and scientists that go to work for BP, pharmaceutical companies, mining companies, chemical companies, etc, in order to figure out how to best design and produce a given product for the lowest costs are exactly the same type of people that have the skills and capacity to work in the public sector as regulators. They just have to accept a fraction of the pay.
How exactly is the government dumbing down public education? We have "no child left behind"? I'll grant you that we have turned our back on funding higher education so that banks could make more subsidized profits, but dumbing down, I do not see it.

I graduated from a public high school in New Orleans in 1969. Some of the people I graduated with went on to become doctors and engineers. One is president of a Fortune 500 company. Many are successful business people and pros in various fields.

If I were to walk through my old high school today, I would first make sure I have a pistol in my pocket. I would be disgusted with the graffetti, and I would not be surprised that advanced college prep classes were no longer taught.

depittydawg
05-19-2010, 03:06 PM
You know this thing in the Gulf is like an invisible tornado or hurricane......it is moving around out there, not all on the surface and causing damage we can not see or imagine to the food chain in the ocean.......After a tornado or a hurricane you can see the damage and re-build.......but in this case how do you rebuild/heal the ocean.......I think we are in unchartered waters and nobody knows these answers.......

By the way the threat of tornado's is so great this afternoon in Oklahoma that the local stations are advising everyone to get to where they are going to stay by 5 p.m........we've got about 3 more weeks of high risk weather, but it has been a wild spring, and wild winter so far.............

We certainly have experience with spills. The Exxon Valdez was many years ago. The science of clean up is well know. As is the science of cover up.

Marvin S
05-19-2010, 07:55 PM
Bull. They just have to accept a fraction of the pay.

A chart. please. Public employment is the new royalty of the marketplace. Adequate compensation is not an issue, adequate performance is :eek:.


The intended Intergration didn't happen and public schools for the most part are nothing more than a breeding grounds for a Hip Hop Nation and with high school graduates reading below a 3rd grade level.

Those that could afford to send thier kids to private schools did while the public system was brought down to the lowest common denominator. Subjecting poorer non-blacks to the Hip Hop Culture and malcontent lifestyle!

Travel just about anywhere in the old south or mid-west and public schools are as segregated as they ever were. The difference being that tax payers can no longer send thier kids to public school.

All my children & my grandchildren went or go to public schools. You need to be sure of what is happening in those schools & their location.

While big city schools may be bad, there are some in the burbs that do an adequate job. Even there we do not get what we as taxpayers pay for as they are too busy whining about how tough they have it. :rolleyes:


I graduated from a public high school in New Orleans in 1969. Some of the people I graduated with went on to become doctors and engineers. One is president of a Fortune 500 company. Many are successful business people and pros in various fields.

If I were to walk through my old high school today, I would first make sure I have a pistol in my pocket. I would be disgusted with the graffetti, and I would not be surprised that advanced college prep classes were no longer taught.

Franco - it graffiti, :).

Henry V
05-19-2010, 11:21 PM
A chart. please. Public employment is the new royalty of the marketplace. Adequate compensation is not an issue, adequate performance is :eek:.


Not true for the types of jobs discussed in this thread. I worked in the public sector and now work in the non-profit sector with lots of private consultants. For the same consultant job, they get about 30% more pay. These are relatively high skill technical jobs. Here is a table that compares compensation for a bunch of jobs. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm#chart

Marvin S
05-20-2010, 07:45 PM
Not true for the types of jobs discussed in this thread. I worked in the public sector and now work in the non-profit sector with lots of private consultants. For the same consultant job, they get about 30% more pay. These are relatively high skill technical jobs. Here is a table that compares compensation for a bunch of jobs. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm#chart

Nice comparison - but the problem with those kinds of charts is they tell you nothing about added value per individual. I've done a lot of evaluation of engineers from all disciplines, many top rated universities both here & abroad, they may all have the same sheepskin but their performance varies widely. More than once I requested my boss look at the transcript of someone they hired because I saw a deficiency in their performance.

As I said of one engineer "If she passed hydraulics it had to be on her back", they checked & guess what, it was not required at this top rated East Coast University. In another case we had hired several people from one of the approved schools, when I questioned their approach to the kind of work we were doing the bosses found out they were not really engineers, they were planners.

I have rarely seen any of those you describe being anything but out of their element when there was a requirement to get results :eek:. They all sound good in an academic setting, but the real world is the real world.

Even in the real world there is a large disparity in compensation between people of equal credentials. This is generally a measure of their output, which is rarely measured in the public sector as it is in the private sector.

I had a lot of people working for me who surely impressed their prof's in whatever school they attended. Unfortunately they were generally unable to transfer that to an on-the-ground issue in a timely manner. Those people generally end up as public employees.

The company I worked for only made offers to the top 25% of any class at those universities that were accredited. Of those hires only about 20% were productive enough to warrant unusual measures to ensure they remain employed, the rest being easily replacable.

& then we can talk about retirement after 30 years, some years of consulting, & yearly COL increases to the pension check. I just don't buy into the blarney about them being underpaid. Now, if you say they don't get compensated enough to afford the lifestyle all that leisure time allows, you may have a point ;-).