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M&K's Retrievers
05-25-2010, 10:05 PM
Obama's executive order to his staff. What a leader and problem solver.

huntinman
05-25-2010, 10:54 PM
If he would cause the oceans to recede like he promised during the campaign, it would be easier to plug the damn hole.

paul young
05-26-2010, 11:02 AM
i was wondering how long it would take for this to become "Obama's problem"....

you guys make Roger look like an amateur when it comes to blame assignment.

the U.S.government is not in the business of deep ocean oil exploration and drilling. they have no equipment to stop the leak. Obama with a snorkle, mask and fins and a big cork? is that your solution?

BP owned the rig.

BP drilled the hole.

BP did not have the proper equipment to control the situation in good working order when the fire started.

men died, other men were injured.

their rig sank.

the oil spewed.

they had no "plan B" in place that would work.

the States that border the Gulf of Mexico have and will continue to suffer losses as a result.

BP will eventually drill another well with the "sister rig".

will it happen again??????-Paul

huntinman
05-26-2010, 11:11 AM
i was wondering how long it would take for this to become "Obama's problem"....

you guys make Roger look like an amateur when it comes to blame assignment.

the U.S.government is not in the business of deep ocean oil exploration and drilling. they have no equipment to stop the leak. Obama with a snorkle, mask and fins and a big cork? is that your solution?

BP owned the rig.

BP drilled the hole.

BP did not have the proper equipment to control the situation in good working order when the fire started.

men died, other men were injured.

their rig sank.

the oil spewed.

they had no "plan B" in place that would work.

the States that border the Gulf of Mexico have and will continue to suffer losses as a result.

BP will eventually drill another well with the "sister rig".

will it happen again??????-Paul

Then why did Obamas minions say yesterday that they are in charge and in control of what is going on in the gulf. You can't have it both ways...

badbullgator
05-26-2010, 11:22 AM
As much as I do not like obongo it is not entirely his problem. BP specifically needs to get this done in regards to stopping the flow. It is their well and they need to take care of it. Now as far as clean up and containment goes, this is where I believe it becomes obonogs problem. While BP and other oil industry people are far better suited to cap and stop the flow the simple fact is that they are not doing a good enough job of clean up and the potential exist for this to be catastrophic in terms of ecological damage. I do think it is time that the goberment steps in and brings everything possible, experimental and otherwise, to speed the clean up process. BP is clearly over their heads as far as the clean up goes and my personal opinion is that they don’t mind paying damages but could really care less about cleaning this up NOW! Note I am not saying exempt BP from clean up or have them stop but with all this nations resources it is criminal that we are not doing more to aid the clean up and prevent this from getting more wide spread. We can bitch about BP and the administration as long as you want but while we are bitching massive damage is being done.

depittydawg
05-26-2010, 11:29 AM
As much as I do not like obongo it is not entirely his problem. BP specifically needs to get this done in regards to stopping the flow. It is their well and they need to take care of it. Now as far as clean up and containment goes, this is where I believe it becomes obonogs problem. While BP and other oil industry people are far better suited to cap and stop the flow the simple fact is that they are not doing a good enough job of clean up and the potential exist for this to be catastrophic in terms of ecological damage. I do think it is time that the goberment steps in and brings everything possible, experimental and otherwise, to speed the clean up process. BP is clearly over their heads as far as the clean up goes and my personal opinion is that they don’t mind paying damages but could really care less about cleaning this up NOW! Note I am not saying exempt BP from clean up or have them stop but with all this nations resources it is criminal that we are not doing more to aid the clean up and prevent this from getting more wide spread. We can bitch about BP and the administration as long as you want but while we are bitching massive damage is being done.

I would say at this point, BP needs to have their 'license' or whatever it is that authorizes them to pump oil out of the gulf suspended for review. They've screwed up big time. 11 People are dead. And the damage is estimated in the Billions of dollars. Sorry guys, the party is over.

ducknwork
05-26-2010, 12:02 PM
I would say at this point, BP needs to have their 'license' or whatever it is that authorizes them to pump oil out of the gulf suspended for review. They've screwed up big time. 11 People are dead. And the damage is estimated in the Billions of dollars. Sorry guys, the party is over.

Are you willing to pay the ridiculous increases in gas prices that this would cause?

ducknwork
05-26-2010, 12:05 PM
Obama's executive order to his staff. What a leader and problem solver.

What would you expect him to say? Fixing oil leaks isn't his expertise, nor is it the expertise of his staff.

Then again, what is his expertise?:confused:

Plugging holes maybe? (according to that tabloid;))

Eric Johnson
05-26-2010, 12:29 PM
Paul-

Plugging the hole is one thing. Attempting to prevent the spread of oil is another. While BP clearly has the responsibilty for plugging the hole, the Administration could be more responsive to the containment issue.

For instance, the Corps of Engineers has spent days trying to decide on Jindahl's plan for a sand berm to block the oil spread at the outer edge of the coast. What they should have said was, "Good idea. What can we do to help. We'll do the paperwork later when the emergency is over." Instead they're spending days worrying about the paperwork.

The EPA is telling BP, "Stop using that dispersal agent." when they should be saying, "The oil is the worst hazard. Press on."

The plan called for them, the Government, to start burning the first day. Instead, the plan was one thing and the reality another. It seems that they need a special barrier to burn effectively and they just had forgotten to buy one.

Eric

M&K's Retrievers
05-26-2010, 12:46 PM
......

Then again, what is his expertise?:confused:

-----)

He is pretty good at avoiding the press, not taking responsibility for anything negative, reneging on campaign promises, taking credit for stuff he had nothing to do with, kissing our enemies asses, pissing off our allies, spending, taxing, bullying and lying.

dnf777
05-26-2010, 12:47 PM
For instance, the Corps of Engineers has spent days trying to decide on Jindahl's plan for a sand berm to block the oil spread at the outer edge of the coast. What they should have said was, "Good idea. What can we do to help. We'll do the paperwork later when the emergency is over." Instead they're spending days worrying about the paperwork.

Eric

My understanding of the delay is that many scientists and environmentalists has expressed concern that altering the coastal areas with these berms would do far more harm than the oil itself. I doubt we know the answer, other than in retrospect. Our track record is pretty dismal when it comes to altering nature for the "better". Who said the scariest words in the world are, "I'm from the gov't , I'm here to help"?

depittydawg
05-26-2010, 01:21 PM
My understanding of the delay is that many scientists and environmentalists has expressed concern that altering the coastal areas with these berms would do far more harm than the oil itself. I doubt we know the answer, other than in retrospect. Our track record is pretty dismal when it comes to altering nature for the "better". Who said the scariest words in the world are, "I'm from the gov't , I'm here to help"?

Nobody is talking about it, but after doing a little reading today on the latest attempt and the technology behind it, it seems to me a distinct possibility that this giant leak won't get plugged now, or anytime in the foreseeable future. BP estimates about a 50% chance the Top Kill plug will work. And there is prediction that there is also about a 50% chance it could make things worse. Seems like we will be entering a realm of science fiction shortly if this doesn't work. What if this leak goes on for years? What happens in the Gulf? Nobody is talking about that, but it seems a possibility.

Buzz
05-26-2010, 02:10 PM
He is pretty good at avoiding the press, not taking responsibility for anything negative, reneging on campaign promises, taking credit for stuff he had nothing to do with, kissing our enemies asses, pissing off our allies, spending, taxing, bullying and lying.


I think you have Omama and Bush confused.

Buzz
05-26-2010, 02:12 PM
Paul-


For instance, the Corps of Engineers has spent days trying to decide on Jindahl's plan for a sand berm to block the oil spread at the outer edge of the coast. What they should have said was, "Good idea. What can we do to help. We'll do the paperwork later when the emergency is over." Instead they're spending days worrying about the paperwork.

Eric


I used to live on Lake Michigan and watched a lot of dredges at work. How long would you estimate it takes a dredge to build a single mile of berm?

The idea of emptying an ocean with a thimble comes to mind.

Buzz
05-26-2010, 02:15 PM
I just saw on CNBC that they are starting the Top Kill operation. They say it could be 48 hours before they know if they are successful or not.

If you are the type that is inclined to prey, maybe now would be a good time to say a few...:(

Franco
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
I just saw on CNBC that they are starting the Top Kill operation. They say it could be 48 hours before they know if they are successful or not.

If you are the type that is inclined to prey, maybe now would be a good time to say a few...:(


http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/05/bp_says_top_kill_has_begun.html

I'm not superstitious but, I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one!

P S
The reason given by the U S Army Corp Of Engineers for delaying the building of a burm is that they feel it will devert any oil contaminated water to other gulf coast states.

With La.'s new oil royality agreement, I'll side with the corp on this one. La. will have plenty of money to rebuild the coastal marshes that have been largely destroyed by over-dredging. That new royality money has to be spent on rebuilding marsh and can not be diverted to other expenses.

Eric Johnson
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
I used to live on Lake Michigan and watched a lot of dredges at work. How long would you estimate it takes a dredge to build a single mile of berm?

The idea of emptying an ocean with a thimble comes to mind.

So...you are of the school that says that because it would be hard to do, we should do nothing.

As it happens, I don't think they were talking about dredging entirely. Perhaps its as simple as just pushing up a temporary berm and sandbagging across the face of it. You don't know and I don't know. Gov Jindahl does but he's being stopped by red tape and the threat of a court suit! That's idiotic.

Eric

badbullgator
05-26-2010, 03:06 PM
I would say at this point, BP needs to have their 'license' or whatever it is that authorizes them to pump oil out of the gulf suspended for review. They've screwed up big time. 11 People are dead. And the damage is estimated in the Billions of dollars. Sorry guys, the party is over.

I would not argue that BP should probably have their permit revoked or something along those lines, IF it is proven that they were at fault and this was not just an accident that could happen to anyone (I believe they are at fault)

badbullgator
05-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Nobody is talking about it, but after doing a little reading today on the latest attempt and the technology behind it, it seems to me a distinct possibility that this giant leak won't get plugged now, or anytime in the foreseeable future. BP estimates about a 50% chance the Top Kill plug will work. And there is prediction that there is also about a 50% chance it could make things worse. Seems like we will be entering a realm of science fiction shortly if this doesn't work. What if this leak goes on for years? What happens in the Gulf? Nobody is talking about that, but it seems a possibility.


It will be solved in August when another well is drilled, maybe sooner,. The dammage will recover, this is not the first time.

http://www.sunherald.com/2010/05/22/2202106/is-deepwater-horizon-different.html (http://www.sunherald.com/2010/05/22/2202106/is-deepwater-horizon-different.html)
By TIM JOHNSON - McClatchy Newspapers
MEXICO CITY — The Ixtoc 1 oil spill in Mexico’s shallow Campeche Sound three decades ago serves as a distant mirror to today’s BP deepwater blowout, and marine scientists are still pondering what they learned from its aftereffects.
In terms of blowouts, Ixtoc 1 was a monster — until the ongoing BP leak, the largest accidental spill in history. Some 3.3 million barrels of oil gushed over nearly 10 months, spreading an oil slick as far north as Texas, where gooey tar balls washed up on beaches.
Surprisingly, Mexican scientists say that Campeche Sound itself recovered rather quickly, and a sizable shrimp industry returned to normal within two years.
Luis A. Soto, a deep-sea biologist, had earned his doctorate from the University of Miami a year before the June 3, 1979, blowout of Ixtoc 1 in 160 feet of water in the Campeche Sound, the shallow, oil-rich continental shelf off the Yucatan Peninsula.
Soto and other Mexican marine scientists feared the worst when they examined sea life in the sound once oil workers finally capped the blowout in March 1980.
“To be honest, because of our ignorance, we thought everything was going to die,” Soto said.
The scientists didn’t know what effects the warm temperatures of gulf waters, intense solar radiation, and other factors from the tropical ecosystem would have on the crude oil polluting the sound.
There were political implications as well; the spill pitted a furious shrimping industry, reliant on the nutrient-rich Campeche Sound, against a powerful state oil company betting its future in offshore drilling, particularly the continental shelf in the Gulf of Mexico it began developing in the late 1970s.
Looking for damage
In the months after Ixtoc 1 was capped, scientists trawled the waters of the sound for signs of biological distress.
“I found shrimp with tumor formations in the tissue, and crabs without the pincers. These were very serious effects,” Soto said.
Another Mexican marine biologist, Leonardo Lizarraga Partida, said the evaluation team began measuring oil content in the sediment, evaluating microorganisms in the water and checking on the biomass of shrimp species.
As the studies extended into a second year, scientists noticed how fast the marine environment recovered, helped by naturally occurring microbes that feasted on the oil and degraded it.
Perhaps due to those microbes, Tunnell found that aquatic life along the shoreline in Texas had returned to normal within three years — even as tar balls and tar mats remained along the beaches, sometimes covered by sand.
“We were really surprised,” Lizarraga said. “After two years, the conditions were really almost normal.”
Currents helped Ixtoc
The Gulf currents and conditions of the Ixtoc 1 spill helped. Unlike the BP blowout, which has spewed at least 5,000 barrels of oil a day, and perhaps many times that, at depths near 5,000 feet, the Ixtoc 1 oil gushed right to the surface, and currents slowly took the crude north as far as Texas, killing turtles, sea birds and other sea life.
“I measured 80 percent reduction in all combined species that were living in the intertidal zone,” said Wes Tunnell, a marine biologist at the Harte Research Institute of Gulf of Mexico Studies at Texas A&M University in Corpus Christi.
While that was severe, Tunnell noted that natural oil that seeps from the seabed releases the equivalent of one to two supertankers of crude in the Gulf of Mexico each year.
“It’s what I call a chronic spill,” Tunnell said. “The good side of having all that seepage out there is that we’ve got a huge population of microbes, bacteria that feed on petroleum products in the water and on shore. So that helps the recovery time.”
Microorganisms helped
An expert on the biodegradation of petroleum, Rita R. Colwell, who holds posts both at the University of Maryland and Johns Hopkins University, said microorganisms are good at breaking down the short chain molecular compounds in crude.
“For the bacteria, they really chew it and release it as CO2,” Colwell said. “The longer stuff that has long ring compounds, that’s the stuff that remains.”
A bloom in oil-consuming microorganisms turned out to be a boon to shrimp in the Campeche Sound, to the relief of the crews on the 650 shrimp boats that trawled in the sound back then.
“The shrimp fed on the bacteria. When you are making the chemical analysis of the shrimp, you obtain the fingerprint,” Soto said, adding that petroleum compounds contain unique chemistry just as flora and fauna contain unique genes.
Just as a human body rallies its defenses to fight off invasive germs, Soto said, the microorganisms prevalent in warmer ocean waters help break down the crude.
“What we learned is that tropical environments have a better chance to recover equilibrium,” Soto said, adding that he believes the Campeche Sound was largely back to normal “perhaps in a year and a half.”
Crude oil does contain toxic compounds, known as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which aren’t easily absorbed by bacteria. Scientists are still studying whether bacteria can be cultivated to break down them down.
“Fortunately, they don’t bio-magnify in species as they go up the food chain. They seem to just get passed through and dropped out,” Tunnell said.
Dispersants used this time
Colwell, nonetheless, warned of eating shrimp harvested in the immediate area of an oil spill: “If you are eating shrimp during the current season or next season, I wouldn’t recommend it.”
Lizarraga, who works at the Center for Scientific Research and Higher Studies of Ensenada, on the Baja California peninsula, criticized the heavy use of chemical dispersants to break up the oil gushing from the BP spill into droplets, saying it isn’t yet clear how the dispersants will affect the oil-degrading microorganisms.
In the Ixtoc 1 spill, “not so many dispersants were used,” he said, allowing natural processes to take their course.
Some fundamental questions remain about the volumes of oil that microorganisms can break down in an oil spill. Tunnell said long-term comprehensive studies are rarely carried out after workers finish mopping up crude oil coating beaches.
“When its cleaned up, the studies stop,” he said. “There’s a lot that we don’t have the real answers to.”

That story does not make good fear news

badbullgator
05-26-2010, 03:12 PM
Are you willing to pay the ridiculous increases in gas prices that this would cause?


Why would BP being penalized by having permits revoked cause an increase? My guess someone else would be more than happy to take over. I would also suggest that drilling at 5000 feet, where no person can opperate is not such a good idea and that maybe drilling needs to be limited to depths that can be accessed.

depittydawg
05-26-2010, 03:41 PM
Are you willing to pay the ridiculous increases in gas prices that this would cause?

Absolutely! In fact, so long as the 'real' cost of oil is hidden, it will remain the only available option. What is the real cost of oil? Have you ever tried to factor in a couple of trillion dollars over the last 10 years for Gulf Oil Wars. The billions in subsidies granted oil conglomerates every year. Not to mention the environmental cost, which is so often scoffed at by skeptics like it doesn't exist. This 'incident' has opened a lot of peoples eyes. The environmental cost of this single spill could devastate an entire region of the world, let alone our Nation. It is reasonable to concede that the actual cost of a gallon of gasoline is probably double what we pay at the pump. Consumers need to be paying for the actual cost. Only then, do alternatives move out of the back seat and into the forefront.

road kill
05-26-2010, 04:02 PM
I think you have Omama and Bush confused.
You might, I don't think MK does.:D

Personally, I would NEVER confuse Omama with Bush.........;-)



rk

starjack
05-26-2010, 04:59 PM
I dislike this prez very very muchbut for the first time he did not sugar coat nothing plug the dam hole. Where i think he should asking other oil company to pitch and help with clean up and how to get the hole pluged

Hew
05-26-2010, 04:59 PM
I used to live on Lake Michigan and watched a lot of dredges at work. How long would you estimate it takes a dredge to build a single mile of berm?

The idea of emptying an ocean with a thimble comes to mind.
You should drive on down to LA an offer your services to the EPA. You figured out in mere minutes what the EPA dithered around with for days. I know you won't let that shake your confidence in the government or your beloved Dear Leader, though.

Marvin S
05-26-2010, 05:29 PM
Absolutely! In fact, so long as the 'real' cost of oil is hidden, it will remain the only available option. What is the real cost of oil? Have you ever tried to factor in a couple of trillion dollars over the last 10 years for Gulf Oil Wars. The billions in subsidies granted oil conglomerates every year. Not to mention the environmental cost, which is so often scoffed at by skeptics like it doesn't exist. This 'incident' has opened a lot of peoples eyes. The environmental cost of this single spill could devastate an entire region of the world, let alone our Nation. It is reasonable to concede that the actual cost of a gallon of gasoline is probably double what we pay at the pump. Consumers need to be paying for the actual cost. Only then, do alternatives move out of the back seat and into the forefront.

In what trust would that be held? Something like SS?

I can remember having this discussion with one of my engineers about 30 years ago. He was adamant that there should be higher taxes on transport products. His statement was "we pay twice twice as much for fuel where I come from as you do here in the states!" My comment back to him was "you should return to where you came from if you want to pay those higher taxes."

As I looked around the room the engineer in the discussion was Dutch, our boss was Irish, the remaining 4 engineers were: 2 Germans, a Belgian & an Englishman. Does that strike you as a little odd? This is Preflight for the Renton Division of BAC, where the AP's are prepped for their initial flight, & I'm the only native born in the room. These people didn't have an industry in their own country to support them. Would you wonder why?

To make it easy, just answer the highlited portions :).

dnf777
05-26-2010, 08:38 PM
I would not argue that BP should probably have their permit revoked or something along those lines, IF it is proven that they were at fault and this was not just an accident that could happen to anyone (I believe they are at fault)

Of course its all preliminary, but it sure sounds like the events and decisions leading up to the explosion were negligent at best, and criminal at worst. One things for sure: all the witnesses on that rig that night have surely retained legal representation, PR firms, and agents who will meter out information carefully, and for a price, when the time is right. I think BP is going to feel very, very lonely in the upcoming months and years, if they're still around.

I hope the PEOPLE behind this disaster are held accountable, and not just the corporate charter somewhere in London or Houston. Those responsible should carry this with them like a scarlet letter, not just leave the corporate carcass of BP behind, and go on to profit with other companies or spin-offs.

depittydawg
05-27-2010, 11:42 AM
In what trust would that be held? Something like SS?

I can remember having this discussion with one of my engineers about 30 years ago. He was adamant that there should be higher taxes on transport products. His statement was "we pay twice twice as much for fuel where I come from as you do here in the states!" My comment back to him was "you should return to where you came from if you want to pay those higher taxes."

As I looked around the room the engineer in the discussion was Dutch, our boss was Irish, the remaining 4 engineers were: 2 Germans, a Belgian & an Englishman. Does that strike you as a little odd? This is Preflight for the Renton Division of BAC, where the AP's are prepped for their initial flight, & I'm the only native born in the room. These people didn't have an industry in their own country to support them. Would you wonder why?

To make it easy, just answer the highlited portions :).

There is no "trust" to hold any money. There is no "tax" that I'm proposing. Paying means paying for the service. It means no more government subsidies to big oil. It means when screw ups happen then BP, XOM or whoever gets to foot the bill or go bankrupt. It means if an army is needed to police the middle east so the oil can be withdrawn than the industry can foot the bill for that. It means the actual cost of the product is born by the business producing the product and passed to the consumer.
As for your second comment, are you suggesting that Ireland, Germany, England and Belgium have no industry? Belgium is the most productive country in the world as measured by worker productivity. Last time I checked the economies of England, Germany and Ireland were doing pretty well too.