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Nate_C
05-26-2010, 11:44 PM
From an article on Yahoo Finance about the bad state of the job market for undergrad (shttp://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109639/glimmers-of-hope-for-grads):

Liam O'Reilly, who just graduated from the University of Maryland with a bachelor's degree in history, said he had applied to 50 employers -- to be a paralegal, a researcher for a policy organization, an administrative assistant -- but he had gotten hardly any interviews. While continuing to search for something he truly wants, he has taken a minimum-wage job selling software that includes an occasional commission. "Had I realized it would be this bad, I would have applied to grad school," Mr. O'Reilly said.
Really that is your solution get more of an education in a field no one has any use for. I would say that 70% of the undergrads today graduation from college with no appreciative increase in their workplace skills besides better writing skills. Most colleges in the US have a fine arts requirement and a physical education requirement but almost none have business requirements. This nation needs operations experts and engineers not sociology majors. We spend 10's of billions on education and our work force is not more productive because of it.
Take two students, equal intelligence and work ethic. One goes to a 4 year school and gets a BA in History which he pays $60,000 which will end up being $80,000 in total loan payout. The other goes to work for let's say a insurance company. However, he says rather than 12.00 per hr, he will work for 8.00 if they let him learn the business. IE work in different parts of the company and do more than just sort mail. During that time the guy working for the insurance company take one class a semester year round for a total of 12 during the 4 years (business math, business writing, economics, accounting, marketing, management and then 6 classes of his choosing) at the local CC. Classes cost him 3000.00 but he makes 64,000 for a positive of 61,000.00. At the end of the 4 years a job opens at the company that usually requires a BA. Which do you think will be better prepared for that job. I know they would end up hiring the guy with the BA and no experience which is part of the problem, companies buying into our "Education System" too.
We need to take a real hard look at the way we are educating our workforce and reexamine things like apprenticeships supplemented with select classes and co-ops and stop letting college bureaucrats who have never been in the work place determine what our economy needs .

depittydawg
05-27-2010, 11:30 AM
From an article on Yahoo Finance about the bad state of the job market for undergrad (shttp://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109639/glimmers-of-hope-for-grads):

Liam O'Reilly, who just graduated from the University of Maryland with a bachelor's degree in history, said he had applied to 50 employers -- to be a paralegal, a researcher for a policy organization, an administrative assistant -- but he had gotten hardly any interviews. While continuing to search for something he truly wants, he has taken a minimum-wage job selling software that includes an occasional commission. "Had I realized it would be this bad, I would have applied to grad school," Mr. O'Reilly said.
Really that is your solution get more of an education in a field no one has any use for. I would say that 70% of the undergrads today graduation from college with no appreciative increase in their workplace skills besides better writing skills. Most colleges in the US have a fine arts requirement and a physical education requirement but almost none have business requirements. This nation needs operations experts and engineers not sociology majors. We spend 10's of billions on education and our work force is not more productive because of it.
Take two students, equal intelligence and work ethic. One goes to a 4 year school and gets a BA in History which he pays $60,000 which will end up being $80,000 in total loan payout. The other goes to work for let's say a insurance company. However, he says rather than 12.00 per hr, he will work for 8.00 if they let him learn the business. IE work in different parts of the company and do more than just sort mail. During that time the guy working for the insurance company take one class a semester year round for a total of 12 during the 4 years (business math, business writing, economics, accounting, marketing, management and then 6 classes of his choosing) at the local CC. Classes cost him 3000.00 but he makes 64,000 for a positive of 61,000.00. At the end of the 4 years a job opens at the company that usually requires a BA. Which do you think will be better prepared for that job. I know they would end up hiring the guy with the BA and no experience which is part of the problem, companies buying into our "Education System" too.
We need to take a real hard look at the way we are educating our workforce and reexamine things like apprenticeships supplemented with select classes and co-ops and stop letting college bureaucrats who have never been in the work place determine what our economy needs .

The biggest problem isn't how we educate the workforce. It is that there are no jobs for most of them when they get out of school.

Terry Britton
05-27-2010, 03:04 PM
The biggest problem isn't how we educate the workforce. It is that there are no jobs for most of them when they get out of school.

That is why Oklahoma State has started a major entrepreneurship program from undergrad all the way through PHD. Too many people want someone to give them a job rather than creating the jobs for themselves. I even see it in management of companies that are having to layoff. The managers are complaining like a poor me attitude rather than spending the time and effort on something new to make the company $$$. If the business case is strong enough, the funding will come.

Writing a solid business plan is hard work, and would cost at least $20 K if you hire it out, but will save many times that in vetting out risks, and giving a road map for a business.

Per an online business article released the other day, Oklahoma is leading the nation in new businesses thanks to proactive efforts.

dnf777
05-27-2010, 03:12 PM
this is a definite problem, that needs more attention.
It starts in kindergarten, where math and science are made out to be the "hard" subjects, and others more fluffy and easy.
I find it paradoxical that kids in school rate math and science as boring, yet the most popular channels on cable are the discovery channel, NatGeo, and other science shows. Its not easy. But it is interesting, and is the answer to the worlds problem. India and China aren't graduating NEAR the percentage of lawyers, MBAs and French Poetry majors as we are! They're cranking out engineers and scientists. I had a brief bit published on CNN's Cafferty page regarding the importance of investing in education, and the long term consequences of failing to keep abreast of other nations.

Franco
05-27-2010, 03:20 PM
That is why Oklahoma State has started a major entrepreneurship program from undergrad all the way through PHD. Too many people want someone to give them a job rather than creating the jobs for themselves. I even see it in management of companies that are having to layoff. The managers are complaining like a poor me attitude rather than spending the time and effort on something new to make the company $$$. If the business case is strong enough, the funding will come.

Writing a solid business plan is hard work, and would cost at least $20 K if you hire it out, but will save many times that in vetting out risks, and giving a road map for a business.

Per an online business article released the other day, Oklahoma is leading the nation in new businesses thanks to proactive efforts.

This can be successful in a state that is predominently Republican.

In states where a large percentage of the populice is accustomed to handouts/entitlements...it will never happen.

Buzz
05-27-2010, 03:25 PM
I find it paradoxical that kids in school rate math and science as boring, yet the most popular channels on cable are the discovery channel, NatGeo, and other science shows. Its not easy. But it is interesting, and is the answer to the worlds problem.


Maybe it's got something to do with the way we teach it.

My daughter got straight 100s on science this year. Third quarter she brought home a C in math. I about had a conniption fit. She explained that science was interesting, but math is boring. I explained to her that math was the language of science and gave her a couple of examples.

Hmm, fourth quarter she got an A in math.

Although, maybe me asking her every single day when I got home from work, "Liz, do you have any math homework tonight" might have helped...

dixidawg
05-27-2010, 03:31 PM
"Liz, do you have any math homework tonight" might have helped...

IMHO, that right there is the single most important thing a parent can do to insure a child's education. I think we tend to blame "the school system" too much when a lot more can be accomplished with more parental involvement.

Franco
05-27-2010, 03:34 PM
this is a definite problem, that needs more attention.
It starts in kindergarten, where math and science are made out to be the "hard" subjects, and others more fluffy and easy.
I find it paradoxical that kids in school rate math and science as boring, yet the most popular channels on cable are the discovery channel, NatGeo, and other science shows. Its not easy. But it is interesting, and is the answer to the worlds problem. India and China aren't graduating NEAR the percentage of lawyers, MBAs and French Poetry majors as we are! They're cranking out engineers and scientists. I had a brief bit published on CNN's Cafferty page regarding the importance of investing in education, and the long term consequences of failing to keep abreast of other nations.



The most poplular cable shows with teens are;
1-MTV (16 & Pregnant is the top rated show on MTV)
2-Comedy Central
3-VH1
4-E
5-Disney

dnf777
05-27-2010, 04:01 PM
The most poplular cable shows with teens are;
1-MTV (16 & Pregnant is the top rated show on MTV)
2-Comedy Central
3-VH1
4-E
5-Disney

I wasn't speaking of the popularity of just teens. somewhere between school and adults, people discover a fascination with science. Look at the success of "Planet Earth" and "Life". Surely its not just Oprah's narrative that drew sales?

All my point was, is that our schools do a remarkable job of making interesting things boring. Probably mandates for standardized testing is partly to blame.

Koolaid
05-27-2010, 04:48 PM
I'd say it's a huge problem we share. Maybe it's a problem in the west in general, but I can't comment on that. I'm going into my fourth year for my honours chemistry BSc. There are 5 other students for a total of 6 in my year. Out of about 8000 total students only 6 are going to graduate with a degree in chemistry.

I'm only a couple years out of the current generation of "kids", but I can't really say why it is this way. It wasn't my parents, although both are fairly well educated. They took more of a passive role in my education, but it worked for me. It wasn't the distractions. I played football and all that business along with a large helping of video games and underage drinking. I can't recall a specific role model that pushed me towards the sciences. I think as much as it has to do with interesting things being made boring, there is a stigma attached that only those who excel to the highest degree in high school are fit for sciences. With my grades I felt that science was my only real option. I know other kids who felt like arts was their only option. There is a difference in university that isn't really communicated and really got me the first couple years. University isn't always about how smart you are, it's about how hard you are willing to work. I coasted through high school with no effort and got a real wake up call. A lot of these kids who have a million things going on in their drama filled teen lives don't put in their best efforts when they are 15-17. Once they start to arrive in the real world they are 2 years into a useless program, 40,000 dollars in debt and changing into a better program doesn't seem like an option.

That is my experience at least; they're hockey players who are too busy chasing girls and drinking to care about high school. Once they wake up and work to their potential, the more science oriented degrees would be an option.

Hew
05-27-2010, 04:54 PM
Colleges fill demands; they don't create them. It ain't like colleges decided to teach computer classes first and then computers were invented soon after. The demand for educated computer geeks came first the colleges responded. The notion that colleges can or should drive job markets is silly.

It's college; where one goes to further their EDUCATION. If a student wants to just learn a trade then they should go to VOCATIONAL school. Colleges shouldn't be fancier versions of high school shop classes except that the professors are less creepy, actually have all of their fingers and keep less smutty porn mags in their desks.

Koolaid
05-27-2010, 04:57 PM
I just remembered a professor talking last year about something related to this. He said something along the lines of Science isn't as sexy as it used to be back in the days of initial space exploration and the moon landings.

dnf777
05-27-2010, 05:12 PM
I'd say it's a huge problem we share. Maybe it's a problem in the west in general, but I can't comment on that. I'm going into my fourth year for my honours chemistry BSc. There are 5 other students for a total of 6 in my year. Out of about 8000 total students only 6 are going to graduate with a degree in chemistry.

I'm only a couple years out of the current generation of "kids", but I can't really say why it is this way. It wasn't my parents, although both are fairly well educated. They took more of a passive role in my education, but it worked for me. It wasn't the distractions. I played football and all that business along with a large helping of video games and underage drinking. I can't recall a specific role model that pushed me towards the sciences. I think as much as it has to do with interesting things being made boring, there is a stigma attached that only those who excel to the highest degree in high school are fit for sciences. With my grades I felt that science was my only real option. I know other kids who felt like arts was their only option. There is a difference in university that isn't really communicated and really got me the first couple years. University isn't always about how smart you are, it's about how hard you are willing to work. I coasted through high school with no effort and got a real wake up call. A lot of these kids who have a million things going on in their drama filled teen lives don't put in their best efforts when they are 15-17. Once they start to arrive in the real world they are 2 years into a useless program, 40,000 dollars in debt and changing into a better program doesn't seem like an option.

That is my experience at least; they're hockey players who are too busy chasing girls and drinking to care about high school. Once they wake up and work to their potential, the more science oriented degrees would be an option.

Well said, and good for you!
We have recently cultivated a culture of "dumb" in the west. We had a president boasting about being a "c" student, and accuse snobbery when people pronounce names properly.
I love the America that our Greatest Generation gave us, and we have largely squandered by becoming fat, lazy, and stupid. When they were challenged, they assembled a team of the best minds, invented the atomic bomb, and recruited a bad-ass to figure out a way to deliver it. (Paul Tibbets) He didn't whine or say it's impossible (although it was!) He just DID IT. We put a man on the moon. We broke the sound barrier. We broke it two fold, then 5 fold. We invented just about every modern creature comfort and technology known to us. I'm afraid, my friends, our reign is coming to an end, unless we start emphasizing greatness in academic achievement, especially in the science and technology sectors.
WHY are we NOT leading the world in alternative energy development? Not just development, but manufacture and distribution? We're missing a golden opportunity. Instead, we're scratching our butts wondering how to plug a hole.

Buzz
05-27-2010, 05:13 PM
I just remembered a professor talking last year about something related to this. He said something along the lines of Science isn't as sexy as it used to be back in the days of initial space exploration and the moon landings.

I think there is some truth to that. When I was a kid, those guys sending rockets into space were my heros. I also think that what you mentioned in your last post made sense too. The perception is that you need to be a nerd to succeed in the sciences. When I was in high school I took 2 years of chemistry, all the math they had to offer, and physics. I wasn't really outstanding, mostly because I was more interested in sports, cheer leaders, and underage drinking. I was actually seriously scared of what would happen to me in college if I tried for engineering. But I applied and was accepted. It wasn't so bad, I was actually became obsessed with it. In college, they made interesting what in high school they managed to make boring. Except for the chemistry that is... ;-)

depittydawg
05-27-2010, 05:23 PM
I just remembered a professor talking last year about something related to this. He said something along the lines of Science isn't as sexy as it used to be back in the days of initial space exploration and the moon landings.

It also isn't as much of a ticket to a good job as it used to be. As multi national corporations pursue cheap labor abroad, manufacturing has been shrinking in the US for a long time now. Ever wonder what happens to all those Engineer Grads when so many veteran Engineers are out of work? I do, my son will soon be one of them.