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david gibson
05-31-2010, 08:38 PM
...but i am a petroleum geophysicist/geologist by degree and spent 2 yrs on offshore oil rigs as a roughneck between high school and college, on floaters, and i have sat my ass on a BOP and tightened bolts on riser pipe many times. so - i am not an expert, but i have a pretty damn good idea of what is going on here, more than the average joe. in addition i have designed and supervised some pretty complicated water wells on Guam. i realize its not the same as an oil well, just saying i understand well casing design. although a water well doesnt have the "blowout" potential, you still better have good well design to prevent cross-contamination via annulus and artesian conditions etc.

so, anyone here who is a petroleum engineer - can you tell me why this well could not be controlled by:

1) completely cutting or blowing the BOP off the well head. now we have a well gushing from the surface casing as opposed to from a broken end of the riser pipe. BUT - now, with a semi-submersible positioned in the original well position, why couldnt they insert a string of pipe - guided by theremote controlled subs of course - into the well head - with a packer that can open up and seal the well? casing packers are a common tool!!!!!!!! open it up, pump in cement, SEALED.

or - in the absence of a suitable expandable packer - in a day or two you could manufacture a metal cone. lets say the surface casing is 36". make a metal cone that tapers from a point to 35.75 in. over a distance of 40 feet or so. simple - could be made at any number of NOV Varco or any othjer metal fabricating plant here in Houston in a couple of days, and i am sure there aqre plenty cloer in new orleans. cram that thing in the well head after blowing the BOP off as above, then fill with cement. SEALED.

it seams the biggest issue to me is that right now the oil is leaking from a crimped pipe, so the maximum possible flow rate is at least retarded a bit. to blow off the BOP would cause a huge increase in flow BUT only for a short time - way better that the status quo until August at best!!!

where is the flaw in this line of thought?

dnf777
05-31-2010, 08:43 PM
or - in the absence of a suitable expandable packer - in a day or two you could manufacture a metal cone. lets say the surface casing is 36". make a metal cone that tapers from a point to 35.75 in. over a distance of 40 feet or so. simple - could be made at any number of NOV Varco or any othjer metal fabricating plant here in Houston in a couple of days, and i am sure there aqre plenty cloer in new orleans. cram that thing in the well head after blowing the BOP off as above, then fill with cement. SEALED.

it seams the biggest issue to me is that right now the oil is leaking from a crimped pipe, so the maximum possible flow rate is at least retarded a bit. to blow off the BOP would cause a huge increase in flow BUT only for a short time - way better that the status quo until August at best!!!

where is the flaw in this line of thought?

I thought the petroleum engineers knew best, but I'm beginning to have my doubts. I have expressed my ideas regarding an expandable cuff insertion conduit to a former VP of engineering at Chevron, who now owns his own drilling company. He was very interested, and said they do have such devices, but have not attempted to use them in this type situation. They have already "borrowed" endoscopic ultrasound technology, and NMR imaging, so why not a vascular surgery trick?

sandyg
05-31-2010, 08:52 PM
The flaw is that you don't work as a cog in the BP machine where you have to acquiesce to the powers that be and you aren't under the thumb of a bunch of government drones that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ocean floor.

david gibson
05-31-2010, 09:17 PM
I thought the petroleum engineers knew best, but I'm beginning to have my doubts. I have expressed my ideas regarding an expandable cuff insertion conduit to a former VP of engineering at Chevron, who now owns his own drilling company. He was very interested, and said they do have such devices, but have not attempted to use them in this type situation. They have already "borrowed" endoscopic ultrasound technology, and NMR imaging, so why not a vascular surgery trick?

which is basically a packer. they are used all the time in other applications in the oil field, exhilaration/production/transportation, you name it.

i think they are really worried about the integrity of the well head area and are scared to death to separate the BOP in hopes it can still be activated somehow. at that depth, i would imagine there is a rather thick layer of really soft muck. but still, with all that il flowing out there should be a really sweet cone target to shove a plug into. they have already gone down with other attempts to plug the pipe, why not the well head? the BOP failed, get it out of the way and plug the dang hole! how hard can that be? someone please tell me?

zeus3925
05-31-2010, 09:50 PM
...but i am a petroleum geophysicist/geologist by degree and spent 2 yrs on offshore oil rigs as a roughneck between high school and college, on floaters, and i have sat my ass on a BOP and tightened bolts on riser pipe many times. so - i am not an expert, but i have a pretty damn good idea of what is going on here, more than the average joe. in addition i have designed and supervised some pretty complicated water wells on Guam. i realize its not the same as an oil well, just saying i understand well casing design. although a water well doesnt have the "blowout" potential, you still better have good well design to prevent cross-contamination via annulus and artesian conditions etc.

so, anyone here who is a petroleum engineer - can you tell me why this well could not be controlled by:

1) completely cutting or blowing the BOP off the well head. now we have a well gushing from the surface casing as opposed to from a broken end of the riser pipe. BUT - now, with a semi-submersible positioned in the original well position, why couldn't they insert a string of pipe - guided by theremote controlled subs of course - into the well head - with a packer that can open up and seal the well? casing packers are a common tool!!!!!!!! open it up, pump in cement, SEALED.

or - in the absence of a suitable expandable packer - in a day or two you could manufacture a metal cone. lets say the surface casing is 36". make a metal cone that tapers from a point to 35.75 in. over a distance of 40 feet or so. simple - could be made at any number of NOV Varco or any othjer metal fabricating plant here in Houston in a couple of days, and i am sure there aqre plenty cloer in new orleans. cram that thing in the well head after blowing the BOP off as above, then fill with cement. SEALED.

it seams the biggest issue to me is that right now the oil is leaking from a crimped pipe, so the maximum possible flow rate is at least retarded a bit. to blow off the BOP would cause a huge increase in flow BUT only for a short time - way better that the status quo until August at best!!!

where is the flaw in this line of thought?

Dave, I am not an engineer either, but I did have some training in geology. I did submit a suggestion to BP on a similar vein. My idea was taken from the "pickle" (some call it a peter) that you insert at the end of a water hose into a clogged drain. When you turn on the water to the hose it inflates the pickle till it forms a rubber ball that blocks the drain. Water passing through pressurizes the drain until the clog is blasted loose. In this case I suggest that a pickle be manufactured so that drilling mud could be used to inflate the pickle. Once the seal is made, pump concrete through it and seal the well permanently. Think I'll hear from BP? Probably not.

david gibson
05-31-2010, 10:19 PM
Dave, I am not an engineer either, but I did have some training in geology. I did submit a suggestion to BP on a similar vein. My idea was taken from the "pickle" (some call it a peter) that you insert at the end of a water hose into a clogged drain. When you turn on the water to the hose it inflates the pickle till it forms a rubber ball that blocks the drain. Water passing through pressurizes the drain until the clog is blasted loose. In this case I suggest that a pickle be manufactured so that drilling mud could be used to inflate the pickle. Once the seal is made, pump concrete through it and seal the well permanently. Think I'll hear from BP? Probably not.

exactly. thats a ype of packer! there could be an issue with this type since it is activated by pressure and you are dealing with 5,000 feet of hydraulic head, but its a start and if they can pump mud that deep then they can inflate your pickle!! better than anything else they have done so far.

make it a mechanical packer, or a cone as described, and you take hydraulic head out of the equation until you pump mud and cement.



there is an RTF'er that shall remain nameless who is on the site in an engineering position. i have left him alone as he needs not our interference, but upon his return i shall pick his brain for certain.

Marty Lee
06-01-2010, 04:50 PM
i dont think you would be able to "shove" anything into that hole because of the amount of Pressure coming OUT of the hole. what is the bottom hole pressure of the formation from which the oil is coming? We have oilfields that have been flowing since 1975 and the bottom hole pressure is still about 8000 psig. try holding back the pressure from a simple garden hose.....easier said than done.

road kill
06-01-2010, 04:53 PM
Think any of the "Secular Progressives" running the show are praying yet???;-)


rk

Franco
06-01-2010, 05:00 PM
Think any of the "Secular Progressives" running the show are praying yet???;-)


rk

I would hope they are working towards are real solution and not chanting into thin air!;-)

road kill
06-01-2010, 05:20 PM
I would hope they are working towards are real solution and not chanting into thin air!;-)
Oh really, what does it appear they are doing now?

Not even chanting into thin air.
Your guys got NOTHING...NOTHING!!!:shock:



stan b

Koolaid
06-01-2010, 05:33 PM
Not much to do with the topic, but favourite picture of mine I thought I'd share with Franco if he hasn't seen it already.

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/8758/prayervshardwork.png (http://img571.imageshack.us/i/prayervshardwork.png/)

Franco
06-01-2010, 05:52 PM
Not much to do with the topic, but favourite picture of mine I thought I'd share with Franco if he hasn't seen it already.

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/8758/prayervshardwork.png (http://img571.imageshack.us/i/prayervshardwork.png/)

That pretty well sums it up.:cool:

And RK, they are doing plenty. They are currently lowering the machine that will cut the riser pipe and hopefully once cut, they can cap it off.

I am more interested in solutions than just hoping. Hope is not a plan of action.

road kill
06-01-2010, 06:15 PM
That pretty well sums it up.:cool:

And RK, they are doing plenty. They are currently lowering the machine that will cut the riser pipe and hopefully once cut, they can cap it off.

I am more interested in solutions than just hoping. Hope is not a plan of action.
Well, that's all very clever, but the point is alot of "secular progressives" have very likely converted during this process.

You know, no stone left unturned, just in case you are wrong and there is a God.







rk

david gibson
06-01-2010, 06:19 PM
i dont think you would be able to "shove" anything into that hole because of the amount of Pressure coming OUT of the hole. what is the bottom hole pressure of the formation from which the oil is coming? We have oilfields that have been flowing since 1975 and the bottom hole pressure is still about 8000 psig. try holding back the pressure from a simple garden hose.....easier said than done.


are you kidding? who said anything about a garden hose? i know that was a metaphor but still, no skimpy materials here.

bottom hole assembly is typically heavy wall pipe - something like 12 - 14 inch od and 4 - 6 inch id. think about it. hardly garden hose.

add to that a drill ship or semi-submersible on the surface, dangling a 5'000 foot string of that heavy wall pipe and i promise you the weight of that string is exponentially higher that that formation pressure. add a packer and it will hold. the key is to make sure you drop it deep enough so that the pressure doesnt find an alternate route through the skallow subsurface since we have little confidence in the integrity of the annulus cement. so you drop it to 2,000 feet plus and sacrifice a quarter million dollars of bottom hole pipe. win!

YardleyLabs
06-01-2010, 06:35 PM
Well, that's all very clever, but the point is alot of "secular progressives" have very likely converted during this process.

You know, no stone left unturned, just in case you are wrong and there is a God.

rk
Do you question the existence of God every time something bad happens? I suspect not since you have definitely faced some tough times. Why would you assume that the beliefs of those you call secular progressives are any more shallow than yours?

Do you believe that anyone who does not believe in God has simply never faced pain? That suggests a pretty crass, transactional relationship with God anyway. I'll worship you if you take away my pain. Maybe it's God that you think is shallow, rather than those who believe in him or not based on conviction.

JDogger
06-01-2010, 11:51 PM
Well, that's all very clever, but the point is alot of "secular progressives" have very likely converted during this process.

You know, no stone left unturned, just in case you are wrong and there is a God. rk

Maybe..., but consider a quote from Peter O'Toole In the 1972 movie, "The Ruling Class", while your in your ice-fishing shanty, or maybe your deer stand.

"When did I realize I was God?"

"Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruling_Class

I leave any further googling to you

Secular progressive regards, JD

dnf777
06-02-2010, 04:43 AM
are you kidding? who said anything about a garden hose? i know that was a metaphor but still, no skimpy materials here.

bottom hole assembly is typically heavy wall pipe - something like 12 - 14 inch od and 4 - 6 inch id. think about it. hardly garden hose.

add to that a drill ship or semi-submersible on the surface, dangling a 5'000 foot string of that heavy wall pipe and i promise you the weight of that string is exponentially higher that that formation pressure. add a packer and it will hold. the key is to make sure you drop it deep enough so that the pressure doesnt find an alternate route through the skallow subsurface since we have little confidence in the integrity of the annulus cement. so you drop it to 2,000 feet plus and sacrifice a quarter million dollars of bottom hole pipe. win!

Yeah, everything worked perfectly, just as you described except one little thing.....it's still leaking thousands of gallons per hour! Lose!

subroc
06-02-2010, 05:30 AM
There are a couple suggestions here. I believe BP is accepting suggestions, call their hotline. But, you better hurry. obama has called in the big guns. He has asked James Cameron of Avatar fame to help.

you can't make this stuff up.

road kill
06-02-2010, 06:19 AM
Do you question the existence of God every time something bad happens? I suspect not since you have definitely faced some tough times. Why would you assume that the beliefs of those you call secular progressives are any more shallow than yours?

Do you believe that anyone who does not believe in God has simply never faced pain? That suggests a pretty crass, transactional relationship with God anyway. I'll worship you if you take away my pain. Maybe it's God that you think is shallow, rather than those who believe in him or not based on conviction.

Absolute garbage post!
Garbage content and to have concocted such a rude post required incredibly rude forethought.
Aren't you clever?

Of course, it's who you are and what you do.

Yes, God is always there, but he will be there in especially hard times.
If that is when you turn to him (and you will!) he will be there for you and anyone else.

Harvard has nothing for you right now....God does.





rk

road kill
06-02-2010, 06:20 AM
Maybe..., but consider a quote from Peter O'Toole In the 1972 movie, "The Ruling Class", while your in your ice-fishing shanty, or maybe your deer stand.

"When did I realize I was God?"

"Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruling_Class

I leave any further googling to you

Secular progressive regards, JD
Oh......you quoted a movie!!
Well then........:rolleyes:






rk

ducknwork
06-02-2010, 06:28 AM
Absolute garbage post!
Garbage content and to have concocted such a rude post required incredibly rude forethought.
Aren't you clever?

Of course, it's who you are and what you do.

Yes, God is always there, but he will be there in especially hard times.
If that is when you turn to him (and you will!) he will be there for you and anyone else.

Harvard has nothing for you right now....God does.





rk

RK, some will never get it. It's ok...sort of. I KNOW for a fact that God is real. I have seen too much proof in my life and the lives of those around me to not believe.

The bottom line is this--if 'we' are wrong, oh well. No big loss. If 'they' are wrong...it's gonna suck for them...

road kill
06-02-2010, 06:36 AM
RK, some will never get it. It's ok...sort of. I KNOW for a fact that God is real. I have seen too much proof in my life and the lives of those around me to not believe.

The bottom line is this--if 'we' are wrong, oh well. No big loss. If 'they' are wrong...it's gonna suck for them...

They make it pretty clear that it already does suck for them!!:D


rk

YardleyLabs
06-02-2010, 06:57 AM
RK, some will never get it. It's ok...sort of. I KNOW for a fact that God is real. I have seen too much proof in my life and the lives of those around me to not believe.

The bottom line is this--if 'we' are wrong, oh well. No big loss. If 'they' are wrong...it's gonna suck for them...
But that is exactly what I ean when I described the suggested relationship as "transactional". It's like an insurance agent trying to sell you a policy. "Hey buddy," he says, "Have I got a deal for you. Pray to me and praise my name, and I will grant you paradise after death. What have you got to lose?" I certainly wouldn't buy insurance based on such a scam artist approach. I think you either believe in God or not. It's a personal decision with no right or wrong answer that can be proven in this life which, I am certain, is the only one I have.

From my perspective, I am responsible for living an ethical, compassionate, and generous life. That is my responsibility as a human being and has nothing to do with God. If I die and come face to face with a God who says that I am to be condemned to some fiery hell because I lived a good and generous life but failed to worship God, then I will be happy to join Mark Twain and other more interesting company away from such a small minded notion of life. Personally, I find it easier to conceive of a deity than to conceive of a deity that is so small minded as the one proposed by the insurance salesman.

road kill
06-02-2010, 07:00 AM
But that is exactly what I ean when I described the suggested relationship as "transactional". It's like an insurance agent trying to sell you a policy. "Hey buddy," he says, "Have I got a deal for you. Pray to me and praise my name, and I will grant you paradise after death. What have you got to lose?" I certainly wouldn't buy insurance based on such a scam artist approach. I think you either believe in God or not. It's a personal decision with no right or wrong answer that can be proven in this life which, I am certain, is the only one I have.

From my perspective, I am responsible for living an ethical, compassionate, and generous life. That is my responsibility as a human being and has nothing to do with God. If I die and come face to face with a God who says that I am to be condemned to some fiery hell because I lived a good and generous life but failed to worship God, then I will be happy to join Mark Twain and other more interesting company away from such a small minded notion of life. Personally, I find it easier to conceive of a deity than to conceive of a deity that is so small minded as the one proposed by the insurance salesman.

Interesting you feel the need to name drop other seculars to validate your position.

Want a list of famous people that beleive in God??



rk

RailRoadRetrievers
06-02-2010, 07:29 AM
I am responsible for living an ethical, compassionate, and generous life.

I just have one thing to ask then I will get back to reading on oil and how it creates a sorda hybrid jumbo shrimp......

Where did your worldview/morals/ethics come from? Were these ideals passed on from atheists who have a clear understanding of good living or were they passed down by a God fearing man/woman. Where did morals and values orginate or do they originate at all, are they present at birth and by choice you chose to be either a moral/ethical person or not?

Marty Lee
06-02-2010, 10:12 AM
are you kidding? who said anything about a garden hose? i know that was a metaphor but still, no skimpy materials here.

bottom hole assembly is typically heavy wall pipe - something like 12 - 14 inch od and 4 - 6 inch id. think about it. hardly garden hose.

add to that a drill ship or semi-submersible on the surface, dangling a 5'000 foot string of that heavy wall pipe and i promise you the weight of that string is exponentially higher that that formation pressure. add a packer and it will hold. the key is to make sure you drop it deep enough so that the pressure doesnt find an alternate route through the skallow subsurface since we have little confidence in the integrity of the annulus cement. so you drop it to 2,000 feet plus and sacrifice a quarter million dollars of bottom hole pipe. win!

do you really think BP would blink at "sacrificing a quarter million dollars of pipe"? and yes the garden hose was a metaphor....the wells were i work in the oil fields are 16000 feet deep and our bottom hole assembly is no where near that thick walled......our annulus pipes are 12"O.D about 3/4"thick walled then the tubing string which is a separate strand of pipe is about 4" O.D about3/8" walled leaving a void around the tubing string.....never mind back to lurking hoping they get it stopped soon.

ducknwork
06-02-2010, 10:41 AM
I just have one thing to ask then I will get back to reading on oil and how it creates a sorda hybrid jumbo shrimp......

Where did your worldview/morals/ethics come from? Were these ideals passed on from atheists who have a clear understanding of good living or were they passed down by a God fearing man/woman. Where did morals and values orginate or do they originate at all, are they present at birth and by choice you chose to be either a moral/ethical person or not?

That's a great question. I have often wondered similar things. Jeff, I don't mean to attack you, but you seem willing to have the conversation...What incentive is there for someone who doesn't believe in God to be a 'good' person? Sure, you couldn't murder or steal because your incentive would be not going to prison, but what stops an atheist from cheating on his wife, or having premarital sex, or frequenting strip clubs, or gossipping excessively, or any multitude of other things that are not against the law? Would an atheist view those things to be OK?

Franco
06-02-2010, 11:19 AM
That's a great question. I have often wondered similar things. Jeff, I don't mean to attack you, but you seem willing to have the conversation...What incentive is there for someone who doesn't believe in God to be a 'good' person? Sure, you couldn't murder or steal because your incentive would be not going to prison, but what stops an atheist from cheating on his wife, or having premarital sex, or frequenting strip clubs, or gossipping excessively, or any multitude of other things that are not against the law? Would an atheist view those things to be OK?

I'll take 'em one at a time.

Cheating on wife: If the marriage is good, there is no need to cheat.
Premarital sex: Nothing wrong with it by two consenting adults.
Strip Clubs: Nothing wrong with them if that is where one wants to spend thier time.
Gossip: Never a good thing.

It is the idea of an afterlife that keeps religion going. I have asked many to discribe the afterlife or Heaven to me. Even within the same religious sects, I get different answers. The reality is we live Heaven and Hell on earth and have to deal with Karma. The idea of living some angelic afterlife is not appealing to me and doesn't exist. If I can't watch football, duck hunt and look at beautiful babes in bikinis in Heaven, then I ain't interested!;-)

depittydawg
06-02-2010, 11:50 AM
I just have one thing to ask then I will get back to reading on oil and how it creates a sorda hybrid jumbo shrimp......

Where did your worldview/morals/ethics come from? Were these ideals passed on from atheists who have a clear understanding of good living or were they passed down by a God fearing man/woman. Where did morals and values orginate or do they originate at all, are they present at birth and by choice you chose to be either a moral/ethical person or not?

I'm not weighing in on the atheist side of this, but.... The fact that some good things, i.e. morals, ethics, since of duty etc. have been passed down by God Fearing individuals does not prove the existence of God. For as many high standards that have roots in religious organizations, there is an equal number of vises. Examples are genocides and wars on a collective scale, and thievery, lusts, abuses, prejudices, enslavement, etc on the personal side. To argue that the existence of good within a Religion proves the existence of God, is to ignore the argument that the existence of evil within the same organization proves the absence of God. In fact, the two arguments cancel each other out. You need to look elsewhere.

Franco
06-02-2010, 11:53 AM
Warning, viewing this could cause you to go to hell!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbYTuBV4Ebo

david gibson
06-02-2010, 12:27 PM
That's a great question. I have often wondered similar things. Jeff, I don't mean to attack you, but you seem willing to have the conversation...What incentive is there for someone who doesn't believe in God to be a 'good' person? Sure, you couldn't murder or steal because your incentive would be not going to prison, but what stops an atheist from cheating on his wife, or having premarital sex, or frequenting strip clubs, or gossipping excessively, or any multitude of other things that are not against the law? Would an atheist view those things to be OK?


because its just not right. just because someone doesnt believe in god doesnt mean they cant conceive of right vs. wrong.

i wasnt aware of "thou shalt not gossip excessively" - was that one created because of "desperate housewives"?

dnf777
06-02-2010, 12:28 PM
What scares me FAR more than an atheist without moral compass, is a God-fearing man who commits the most heinous acts in the name of his God, such as flying airplanes into buildings, mothers who drive their kids into lakes strapped into seats, and on and on.

Morals and ethics result from how an individual internalizes his teachings and life experiences, and acts upon them. For many, a belief in God, Allah, Yaweh, or take your pick, can have a tremendous positive effect on their life, and that's wonderful. Some however, use their God to justify the very acts that their God teaches against. I have known an atheist who replied to your very question with that if there's no reward in the afterlife with angels and harps and clouds...then he only had a short time to make his mark and leave this world a better place for his children. No deferred gratification in the form of Heaven, so make it good while you've got it.

I've seen very moral and ethical people from all religious backgrounds, including atheists. I've also seen real turds from all religions, including atheists. Its the person, not the religion.

ducknwork
06-02-2010, 01:24 PM
The idea of living some angelic afterlife is not appealing to me and doesn't exist.

I'll take God's word over Franco's. I'll have to say it does exist and we'll just agree to disagree.

Just for a second, let's pretend you are wrong and there is a God and a heaven and hell. Now let's say that hell is just as it is described with flames and pain and suffering for eternity and all that jazz...Would that make the angelic place a little more appealing?

ducknwork
06-02-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm not weighing in on the atheist side of this, but.... The fact that some good things, i.e. morals, ethics, since of duty etc. have been passed down by God Fearing individuals does not prove the existence of God. For as many high standards that have roots in religious organizations, there is an equal number of vises. Examples are genocides and wars on a collective scale, and thievery, lusts, abuses, prejudices, enslavement, etc on the personal side. To argue that the existence of good within a Religion proves the existence of God, is to ignore the argument that the existence of evil within the same organization proves the absence of God. In fact, the two arguments cancel each other out. You need to look elsewhere.

I don't think that was the point of the post. I don't see where he was trying to prove the existence of God by morals and values. I took it as he was genuinely curious where the morals and values of an atheist are generated from.

david gibson
06-02-2010, 01:38 PM
I'll take God's word over Franco's. I'll have to say it does exist and we'll just agree to disagree.

Just for a second, let's pretend you are wrong and there is a God and a heaven and hell. Now let's say that hell is just as it is described with flames and pain and suffering for eternity and all that jazz...Would that make the angelic place a little more appealing?

the angelic place is more appealing for certain!

but if i live my life good, raise great kids, and leave the world a better place, will go to suffer the flames just because i didnt worship god and jesus?

isnt that what its really all about? any god who tosses me down to hell because i didnt praise and worship his existence even though i may have cured the world of evil on my own seems a bit arrogant to me.

YardleyLabs
06-02-2010, 01:44 PM
I just have one thing to ask then I will get back to reading on oil and how it creates a sorda hybrid jumbo shrimp......

Where did your worldview/morals/ethics come from? Were these ideals passed on from atheists who have a clear understanding of good living or were they passed down by a God fearing man/woman. Where did morals and values orginate or do they originate at all, are they present at birth and by choice you chose to be either a moral/ethical person or not?
My normal retort is simple: morals are much too important to blame on God.

Ethics and morality were the basis of philosophical discussion long before Christianity existed or the 10 commandments were brought down from the mountain by Moses. The Greek philosophers came from a religious tradition where gods epitomized human failings rather than demanding moral performance. That did not stop the Greeks from refining their notions of what types of ethics and morals were needed to sustain a civilized society. Bees and ants practice altruism, sacrificing themselves for the good of the colony. We do the same. We don't murder, or steal, or commit adultery because those are acts that tear apart the fabric of society and make it impossible for people to live together in peace. Acting in accordance with basic morals (which in my opinion do not include any requirements with regard to religious practice) is built into our DNA as social beings and is taught to us by our families and our peers from birth. Blaming those morals on God, it seems to me, diminishes personal responsibility to the groups within which we live.

FWIW, I learned much of my system of morality from my parents, who were both atheists for as long as they lived.

Franco
06-02-2010, 01:48 PM
I'll take God's word over Franco's. I'll have to say it does exist and we'll just agree to disagree.

Just for a second, let's pretend you are wrong and there is a God and a heaven and hell. Now let's say that hell is just as it is described with flames and pain and suffering for eternity and all that jazz...Would that make the angelic place a little more appealing?

There is no answer for this question, it is all, "lets pretend". The idea of an afterlife is absurd. The entire concept of an afterlife is nothing more than a nice thought. No one is going to burn in hell for eternity and no one is going to some celestial garden of eden for eternity!

YardleyLabs
06-02-2010, 01:51 PM
the angelic place is more appealing for certain!

but if i live my life good, raise great kids, and leave the world a better place, will go to suffer the flames just because i didnt worship god and jesus?

isnt that what its really all about? any god who tosses me down to hell because i didnt praise and worship his existence even though i may have cured the world of evil on my own seems a bit arrogant to me.
My goodness. We agree for a second time. And RK, I wasn't "dropping names" in referencing Mark Twain, I was making a play on his quip about preferring Hell for the company.;-)

Koolaid
06-02-2010, 02:51 PM
I suddenly like David Gibson a lot more. I should have known when he said he was a scientist of sorts.

While this is ridiculously simplified, lets look at morals from a Darwinian point of view. Humans and tribes with a tendency to cooperate and generally abide by the golden rule were far more likely to survive and thrive than tribes filled with murderers.

Personally, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit if you think you'd be out killing and raping if Daddy wasn't looking over your shoulder.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg

I'm sure you all hate Hitchens, but it's hard to find someone who can put it in a better way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWt8a1aMkZ4&feature=fvw

paul young
06-02-2010, 02:59 PM
i want to go where my dogs went.-Paul

david gibson
06-02-2010, 03:02 PM
I suddenly like David Gibson a lot more. I should have known when he said he was a scientist of sorts.

While this is ridiculously simplified, lets look at morals from a Darwinian point of view. Humans and tribes with a tendency to cooperate and generally abide by the golden rule were far more likely to survive and thrive than tribes filled with murderers.

Personally, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit if you think you'd be out killing and raping if Daddy wasn't looking over your shoulder.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg

I'm sure you all hate Hitchens, but it's hard to find someone who can put it in a better way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWt8a1aMkZ4&feature=fvw

first bold: whoa now something is wrong here. that would imply you liked me a at least a little bit before. i didnt think anyone ion RTF liked me.:confused:

second bold: wow, that's pretty good.

i know its just a song, but the eagles lay it down pretty well. our ancestors committed genocide on native americans and justified it because they were savages. freed slaves were 3/5 people, indians were 0/5. "why, they aren't christians, then by god lets kill them"

"Who will provide the grand design?
What is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more new frontier
We have got to make it here

We satisfy our endless needs and
justify our bloody deeds,
in the name of destiny and the name of God

And you can see them there,
On Sunday morning
They stand up and sing about
what it's like up there
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise,
kiss it goodbye

road kill
06-02-2010, 03:26 PM
first bold: whoa now something is wrong here. that would imply you liked me a at least a little bit before. i didnt think anyone ion RTF liked me.:confused:

second bold: wow, that's pretty good.

i know its just a song, but the eagles lay it down pretty well. our ancestors committed genocide on native americans and justified it because they were savages. freed slaves were 3/5 people, indians were 0/5. "why, they aren't christians, then by god lets kill them"

"Who will provide the grand design?
What is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more new frontier
We have got to make it here

We satisfy our endless needs and
justify our bloody deeds,
in the name of destiny and the name of God

And you can see them there,
On Sunday morning
They stand up and sing about
what it's like up there
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise,
kiss it goodbye
So you judge all Christians by an Eagles song?


Seems fair.:rolleyes:



rk

david gibson
06-02-2010, 03:33 PM
So you judge all Christians by an Eagles song?


Seems fair.:rolleyes:



rk

i said "i know its just a song"

so are you saying the european invasion did not commit genocide???? what part of what is written there is incorrect?

and whats the difference? christians judge all others by whats in a book.

road kill
06-02-2010, 03:46 PM
i said "i know its just a song"

so are you saying the european invasion did not commit genocide???? what part of what is written there is incorrect?

and whats the difference? christians judge all others by whats in a book.
When did I say that?

I judge noone by a book, but what they show from their heart.
Some show more than they would like or know.
What do YOU judge others by??

You don't have to convince me (and won't) there is no God, seems the work is to convince yourself.

All of you secular progressive seem pretty uncertain of your positions.

I am sure of mine, how I got here and what it means to me.
I do NOT think it makes me better than you, just makes me a bit better than I was.

I see someone claim they have compassion, then attack Christians.
I honesstly don't get that.
If what you beleive and do works for you, I am happy for you.
This works for me.

I just try to do the best I can everyday!

John Wooden once said;
"Make everyday your masterpeice!"

Good advice.





rk

david gibson
06-02-2010, 04:01 PM
When did I say that?

I judge noone by a book, but what they show from their heart.
Some show more than they would like or know.

You don't have to convince me (and won't) there is no God, seems the work is to convince yourself.

All of you secular progressive seem pretty uncertain of your positions.

I am sure of mine, how I got here and what it means to me.
I do NOT think it makes me better than you, just makes me a bit better than I was.

I see someone claim they have compassion, then attck Christians.
I honesstly don't get that.
If what you beleive and do works for you, I am happy for you.

This works for me.



rk

thats where you are totally off. i am a non believer because i am a geologist. the fact that we can find and drill for oil is wholly incongruous with creationism. we find oil based on the science we have learned that tells us where to look for it, and that science meshes like transmission gears with chemistry and biology. the grandeur of the grand canyon is wholly incongruous with genesis. every bit of science and technology around us is wholly incongruous with genesis and creation. regardless of the term "theory", which is not vernacular in the scientific sense, evolution is a fact. we still call plate tectonics a "theory", but its a pretty solid factual mechanism as well. science is wholly incompatible with pretty much every religion known to man, except maybe scientology but i have no clue about those people. yet science is what has propelled our civilization to the heights it has reached. and yet someone will always say that if science cant explain everything then obviously there is a great designer. well, if there is, it is wholly incongruous with the bible as it is written. roughly 21 major religions with 200+ offshoots and at best only ONE can be correct. its more likely none are.

which is why i rarely debate religion unless its in contrast to science. in the post above i was following the flow of the thread, and i shouldn't really get in to that debate. my expertise lies in geology and natural science and that is really where i should remain. my apologies if i insulted your religion, it was not my intent.

starjack
06-02-2010, 04:03 PM
Why Not See What We Can Do About Getting The Oil Stopped Like This Thread Started.

Jim Person
06-02-2010, 04:07 PM
I'm no engineer, but we should start stuffing BP execs and politicians in that hole, sooner or later if we get enough of them in it will stop.. If that doesnt work, at least we'll feel a little better.
They really need to do alot more in the clean up and protecting the marshes while they are scratching their heads to figure out how to stop it... Let's all pray they don't get hit with a hurricane , can't even imagine what that would do to the slick.... Jim

Franco
06-02-2010, 04:21 PM
I'm no engineer, but we should start stuffing BP execs and politicians in that hole, sooner or later if we get enough of them in it will stop.. If that doesnt work, at least we'll feel a little better.
They really need to do alot more in the clean up and protecting the marshes while they are scratching their heads to figure out how to stop it... Let's all pray they don't get hit with a hurricane , can't even imagine what that would do to the slick.... Jim

I am 100% for this idea and lets add the enviromentalist that pressured our numb-sculled politicians into forcing companies to drill in deep water because they didn't want them drilling closer to shore where it is safer to drill!

YardleyLabs
06-02-2010, 04:27 PM
i want to go where my dogs went.-Paul
I like the theory, but my dogs have all been willing to roll in some stuff very happily that I don't want to go near even if I am dead.:D I keep waiting for my dogs to come back in litters that I breed.

dnf777
06-02-2010, 04:30 PM
I am 100% for this idea and lets add the enviromentalist that pressured our numb-sculled politicians into forcing companies to drill in deep water because they didn't want them drilling closer to shore where it is safer to drill!

I was going to suggest stuffing Rush Limbaugh into the well, but he's way too big. Maybe if we just put his mouth near the well, the crap that he spews would cancel out and overcome the flow of oil? A kind of modified "junk shot".

Franco
06-02-2010, 04:30 PM
When did I say that?

I judge noone by a book, but what they show from their heart.
Some show more than they would like or know.
What do YOU judge others by??

You don't have to convince me (and won't) there is no God, seems the work is to convince yourself.

All of you secular progressive seem pretty uncertain of your positions.

I am sure of mine, how I got here and what it means to me.
I do NOT think it makes me better than you, just makes me a bit better than I was.

I see someone claim they have compassion, then attack Christians.
I honesstly don't get that.
If what you beleive and do works for you, I am happy for you.
This works for me.

I just try to do the best I can everyday!

John Wooden once said;
"Make everyday your masterpeice!"

Good advice.





rk

Reading the various threads, I'd say just the opposite is true. Those with an open mind and believe in science have the convictions in thier beliefs. It is the bible thumpers that have the doubt.

Besides, you didn't address Dave's question about all the Christians committing genocide on the American Indians. Which passge of thier bible were they following?

dnf777
06-02-2010, 04:34 PM
every bit of science and technology around us is wholly incongruous with genesis and creation. regardless of the term "theory", which is not vernacular in the scientific sense, evolution is a fact.

Hang on to you hat, but I agree with you on this one!
Except the excerpt above, which I think can easily be overcome by accepting that religions are told in allegory. When fundamentalist Biblists take the Bible literally, then it is at total odds with science and reality, as you state. (which is fine if people choose that, its a free country.....but it has no place being taught in public schools, outside of possibly Biblical history contexts)

Koolaid
06-02-2010, 04:47 PM
h bar over 2....my world is filled with uncertainty.
The theory of gravity is great when described by Newton, but how do gravitons work?
The laws of motion are great, but what happens when a particle can't be described in terms of time and position in conjunction.

Science is willing to say "I don't know". Then we work on the problem.
Could there be a god? Statistically yes. Those chances are so low that no one in their right mind would stop their research and say it's just a mystery of the heavens. Throw the word Christian in front of the word god and the probability becomes so infinitesimal it's ridiculous.

In the end, live your life however you want to. I'm not going to treat someone differently because they pray at night. The only thing that gets me are when people try to push crap like ID or creationism into the classroom. I look at indoctrination of children as a form of child abuse.

road kill
06-02-2010, 07:00 PM
thats where you are totally off. i am a non believer because i am a geologist. the fact that we can find and drill for oil is wholly incongruous with creationism. we find oil based on the science we have learned that tells us where to look for it, and that science meshes like transmission gears with chemistry and biology. the grandeur of the grand canyon is wholly incongruous with genesis. every bit of science and technology around us is wholly incongruous with genesis and creation. regardless of the term "theory", which is not vernacular in the scientific sense, evolution is a fact. we still call plate tectonics a "theory", but its a pretty solid factual mechanism as well. science is wholly incompatible with pretty much every religion known to man, except maybe scientology but i have no clue about those people. yet science is what has propelled our civilization to the heights it has reached. and yet someone will always say that if science cant explain everything then obviously there is a great designer. well, if there is, it is wholly incongruous with the bible as it is written. roughly 21 major religions with 200+ offshoots and at best only ONE can be correct. its more likely none are.

which is why i rarely debate religion unless its in contrast to science. in the post above i was following the flow of the thread, and i shouldn't really get in to that debate. my expertise lies in geology and natural science and that is really where i should remain. my apologies if i insulted your religion, it was not my intent.

I never said anything about religion (which is where the atrocities you speak of are spawned), I said I beleive in God.





rk

ducknwork
06-03-2010, 06:04 AM
There is no answer for this question, it is all, "lets pretend". The idea of an afterlife is absurd. The entire concept of an afterlife is nothing more than a nice thought. No one is going to burn in hell for eternity and no one is going to some celestial garden of eden for eternity!

So you won't even play along...:rolleyes:Sounds like denial...

You say with such certainty and conviction that He does not exist. Where is your proof? I can understand that you don't believe in Him, but to flat out say that He doesn't exist (for anyone) would take proof.

YardleyLabs
06-03-2010, 06:54 AM
So you won't even play along...:rolleyes:Sounds like denial...

You say with such certainty and conviction that He does not exist. Where is your proof? I can understand that you don't believe in Him, but to flat out say that He doesn't exist (for anyone) would take proof.
I was talking to a very religious friend and described myself as a "born atheist." His comment was that we are all born atheists. It's very easy to believe in a tree or a stone, because you look at them, feel them, and they are there. Belief in God, he said, must be taught because there is no direct evidence of his presence. Once taught about Him, you can see Him in the things he has made: the tree, the stone, and all else that makes up our universe. However, the core belief that there is a god is an act of faith, not reason. I have no problems respecting his faith. I don't share it. He seems to have no difficulty respecting that.

road kill
06-03-2010, 06:55 AM
I was talking to a very religious friend and described myself as a "born atheist." His comment was that we are all born atheists. It's very easy to believe in a tree or a stone, because you look at them, feel them, and they are there. Belief in God, he said, must be taught because there is no direct evidence of his presence. Once taught about Him, you can see Him in the things he has made: the tree, the stone, and all else that makes up our universe. However, the core belief that there is a god is an act of faith, not reason. I have no problems respecting his faith. I don't share it. He seems to have no difficulty respecting that.
So.....do you love anyone?




rk

YardleyLabs
06-03-2010, 06:57 AM
So.....do you love anyone?




rk
Yes. What's your point?

Hew
06-03-2010, 06:59 AM
Besides, you didn't address Dave's question about all the Christians committing genocide on the American Indians. Which passge of thier bible were they following?
Gee, maybe we should let Don Henley and Joe Walsh write history books. America pushing the Indians off their land was no more of a Christian cause or crusade than America pushing the very-much-Christian Mexicans out of their land.

America needed land. Indians and Mexicans had it. It's as simple as that. Unless, of course, the Eagles tell you guys otherwise. :p

road kill
06-03-2010, 07:00 AM
Yes. What's your point?

Read your comment on God.
You can't see love.
You can't hug it like the tree or the stone.

It must be taught because there is no direct evidence.
By your articulation to support your theory of no God, there must be no love.

Or do you just articulate what suits you??:D




rk

YardleyLabs
06-03-2010, 07:40 AM
Read your comment on God.
You can't see love.
You can't hug it like the tree or the stone.

It must be taught becuase there is no direct evidence.
By your articulation to support your theory of no God, there must be no love.

Or do you just articulate what suits you??:D




rk
There is a well known technique for mathematical analysis and debate known as reductio ad absurdum, which is the process of demonstrating the absurdity of an argument by extending it logically to the point at which it results in a contradiction. The literal translation from Latin is reduction to absurdity. Once again, Stan, your are using your preferred variant of this technique, which might be called reductio absurdum, translated as absurd reduction. That is, you take an argument and extend irrationally to make your point, and then pretend that your absurd line of reasoning fairly presented the original argument.

The examples I gave were simple illustrations of the ease of understanding and accepting the existence of concrete objects versus the difficulty of understanding and accepting things in the absence of such evidence. In characterizing belief in a god as an act of faith, I suggested no disrespect, nor did I say that faith was somehow inferior to lack of faith. Kids do not have to be taught that they have feelings. They do have to be taught the language for describing those feelings. Similarly, one might argue that religious training is simply the process of giving children a name -- God -- to define the sense of wonder they feel about things they do not otherwise understand.

However, I have yet to see an argument for the existence of god that was not tautological (i.e. circular) or that did not break down of their own weight. An example of the former would be the children's song "Jesus loves, yes I know, because the Bible tells me so." An example of the latter would be the traditional argument that the existence of the universe cannot be explained without acceptance that a Creator had to be there to kick the whole process off. The logical extension is to ask what created the creator. Unlike some, I do not deny the existence of God. I simply don't believe there is one (or many).The issue is not subject to reason, which means that from the perspective of reason, both positions are equally valid. There are many things in life that fall into this category, which is a bitch for those who believe that there can be only one correct answer to a question. What they fail to realize is that not all questions have an answer.

junbe
06-03-2010, 08:38 AM
In mathematics there are propositions that cannot be either proved or refuted. A reference would Kurt Godel's works in logic, especially his 1931 publication, "The Incompleteness Theorem." Even God keeps secrets from mathematicians.

Jack

david gibson
06-03-2010, 09:15 AM
i have no problem in the belief of a supreme designer or something, afterall, we cant even explain what was here before the universe or whats on the other side of it. the vastness of the known universe and the concept of infinity is impossible to perceive.

i just know that the history of the earth is very well established as well as the related science that describes it does not agree with any historical religion.

ducknwork
06-03-2010, 11:08 AM
I was talking to a very religious friend and described myself as a "born atheist." His comment was that we are all born atheists. It's very easy to believe in a tree or a stone, because you look at them, feel them, and they are there. Belief in God, he said, must be taught because there is no direct evidence of his presence. Once taught about Him, you can see Him in the things he has made: the tree, the stone, and all else that makes up our universe. However, the core belief that there is a god is an act of faith, not reason. I have no problems respecting his faith. I don't share it. He seems to have no difficulty respecting that.

I hope that you didn't get the impression that I was being disrespectful to you or implying that you are less than I due to your lack of faith. That wasn't my intention and I don't know if you took it that way, but your last sentence makes it seem like perhaps you took my words wrong. If so, I apologize.

I can respect the fact that you don't believe in God, although I wish that you would. That is your choice, however, and it hurts nobody but you (in my belief system). I know that He is real. He has proven Himself to me, time and time again and my life is much better than it was before I got a little more serious about Him. There is no denying that. I appreciate it that you can respect other's religions and not bad mouth them as other's feel is necessary to do so...

YardleyLabs
06-03-2010, 12:52 PM
I hope that you didn't get the impression that I was being disrespectful to you or implying that you are less than I due to your lack of faith. ...
Not at all. I was directing my comments at RK.;-)

road kill
06-03-2010, 01:00 PM
Not at all. I was directing my comments at RK.;-)

And, you are aware that I was not disrespecting you.
Aren't you?



stan b

dnf777
06-03-2010, 01:11 PM
And, you are aware that I was not disrespecting you.
Aren't you?



stan b

Let me grab my polaroid....I sense a group hug coming!! :D

ducknwork
06-03-2010, 01:21 PM
Let me grab my polaroid....I sense a group hug coming!! :D

Who's gonna take the picture? I know you're in it too! Can one of yall train your dog to do that?:confused: