PDA

View Full Version : McChrystal/Obama Rift?



Gerry Clinchy
06-22-2010, 09:38 AM
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/White+House+summons+Afghanistan+general/3185460/story.html

From the Calgary Herald

Hew
06-22-2010, 09:59 AM
McChrystal has been summoned to DC and is about to be handed his head. Here's a WaPo article from this morning: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062200813_pf.html

From the article:



The magazine story shows that McChrystal is also facing criticism from some of his own troops who have grown frustrated with new rules that force commanders be extraordinarily judicious in using lethal force.

A few weeks ago, according to the magazine, the general traveled to a small outpost in Kandahar Province, in southern Afghanistan, to meet with a unit of soldiers reeling from the loss of a comrade, 23-year-old Cpl. Michael Ingram.

The corporal was killed in a booby-trapped house that some of the unit's commanders had unsuccessfully sought permission to blow up.

One soldier at the outpost showed Hastings, who was traveling with the general, a written directive instructing troops to "patrol only in areas that you are reasonably certain that you will not have to defend yourself with lethal force."

That right there is infuriating and exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about when you (Gerry) and I were discussing his appointment and "new" strategy awhile back. I had reservations about it then, and if the above anecdotes are any indication of the strategy in-practice then I know for sure I don't like it.

McCrystal deserves to be sacked based on that article. Beyond the disrespect that he's publically shown to his bosses (and the elected offices they hold), I seriously question the wisdom and judgement of a general who would not only say that stuff but be dumb enough to say it in front of a reporter knowing that it's going to be published. Moreover, he's let that attitude infect his subordinate officers (based on their equally boneheaded comments).

david gibson
06-22-2010, 10:28 AM
McChrystal has been summoned to DC and is about to be handed his head. Here's a WaPo article from this morning: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062200813_pf.html

From the article:


That right there is infuriating and exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about when you (Gerry) and I were discussing his appointment and "new" strategy awhile back. I had reservations about it then, and if the above anecdotes are any indication of the strategy in-practice then I know for sure I don't like it.

McCrystal deserves to be sacked based on that article. Beyond the disrespect that he's publically shown to his bosses (and the elected offices they hold), I seriously question the wisdom and judgement of a general who would not only say that stuff but be dumb enough to say it in front of a reporter knowing that it's going to be published. Moreover, he's let that attitude infect his subordinate officers (based on their equally boneheaded comments).

McCrystal also admits he voted for Obama.


He should have been sacked long ago just for that. no wonder his troopps dont trust or have faith in him.

dnf777
06-22-2010, 11:03 AM
Anyone who saw his 60 minutes segment should have seen this coming. I admit, he is one accomplished professional soldier, but can you say "Col. Jessup"?? Anyone who can spend 30 minutes talking about how he can skip meals and sleep 4 hours per night is just a little egotistical, and they tend to do themselves in, given the chance.

If anyone wants a little background info on McC, check out Jon Krakauer's book on Pat Tillman. You'll be amazed. He was in charge of the made-for-television moment of Jessica Lynch's "rescue" by commandos in Iraq. The scheduled delivery by ambulance was halted, until he could get his troops and tv cameras in place.

precisionlabradors
06-22-2010, 11:05 AM
McCrystal also admits he voted for Obama.


He should have been sacked long ago just for that. no wonder his troopps dont trust or have faith in him.

duringthe campaign you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on this board, especially you, to admit that there are even democrats in the military.
________
Shinto forums (http://www.religionboard.org/shinto/)

david gibson
06-22-2010, 11:41 AM
duringthe campaign you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on this board, especially you, to admit that there are even democrats in the military.

and just how do you know that? i wasnt posting in here during the campaign. nice try though.

i would imagine the rank and file is split pretty evenly - if not more on the dem side, and officers are more heavily leaning in the republican direction.

dnf777
06-22-2010, 11:44 AM
and just how do you know that? i wasnt posting in here during the campaign. nice try though.

i would imagine the rank and file is split pretty evenly, and officers are more heavily leaning in the republican direction.

Your hunch is right on. When broken down, dems are slightly overrepresented amongst enlisted and minority troops, and just the opposite for men and officers.

Regardless of political persuasion, or lack thereof, men wearing a uniform with stars on it should know better than to speak like McC did. Especially with his background in special ops!!

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 12:54 PM
McChrystal has been summoned to DC and is about to be handed his head. Here's a WaPo article from this morning: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062200813_pf.html

From the article:


That right there is infuriating and exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about when you (Gerry) and I were discussing his appointment and "new" strategy awhile back. I had reservations about it then, and if the above anecdotes are any indication of the strategy in-practice then I know for sure I don't like it.

McCrystal deserves to be sacked based on that article. Beyond the disrespect that he's publically shown to his bosses (and the elected offices they hold), I seriously question the wisdom and judgement of a general who would not only say that stuff but be dumb enough to say it in front of a reporter knowing that it's going to be published. Moreover, he's let that attitude infect his subordinate officers (based on their equally boneheaded comments).

Well, he certainly needs to explain himself. I was wondering if he was drunk, or perhaps seduced by a young female reporter. It seems impossible that anyone, let alone a Commanding General could blow it so badly.

david gibson
06-22-2010, 01:06 PM
Well, he certainly needs to explain himself. I was wondering if he was drunk, or perhaps seduced by a young female reporter. It seems impossible that anyone, let alone a Commanding General could blow it so badly.

perhaps it reflects on just how badly this administration is handling things over there. if you have slight differences you get past them easily. the wider the rift grows the more likely you are to speak out.

coming from one who voted for him that rift must be really wide.

Roger Perry
06-22-2010, 01:14 PM
perhaps it reflects on just how badly this administration is handling things over there. if you have slight differences you get past them easily. the wider the rift grows the more likely you are to speak out.

coming from one who voted for him that rift must be really wide.

This administration did not start the war but is trying to end it which is more than I can say about the last administration.

david gibson
06-22-2010, 01:23 PM
This administration did not start the war but is trying to end it which is more than I can say about the last administration.

cut and run is not an acceptable way to end a war. waiting 6 months to provide aid requested by the lead commander in the field is no way to run a war.

pretty big mess is being made far far worse by this sorry excuse for a president.

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 01:23 PM
perhaps it reflects on just how badly this administration is handling things over there. if you have slight differences you get past them easily. the wider the rift grows the more likely you are to speak out.

coming from one who voted for him that rift must be really wide.

As one who is as disgusted at the Obama administration for expanding the war instead of stopping it, the President gets no support from me on this one. However, it doesn't matter. If what this article espouses is even close to the truth, the guy needs to be fired.

road kill
06-22-2010, 01:37 PM
As one who is as disgusted at the Obama administration for expanding the war instead of stopping it, the President gets no support from me on this one. However, it doesn't matter. If what this article espouses is even close to the truth, the guy needs to be fired.

Who "HIRED" him???


More failed leadership.......


rk

david gibson
06-22-2010, 01:40 PM
As one who is as disgusted at the Obama administration for expanding the war instead of stopping it, the President gets no support from me on this one. However, it doesn't matter. If what this article espouses is even close to the truth, the guy needs to be fired.

just curious - if you think the war should have been stopped by Obama, how do you propose dealing with the resulting rise of the taliban/al queda (taq) and terrorism directed at us?

do you think the taq would lay back and leave us alone if we just get out of their region?

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 02:02 PM
just curious - if you think the war should have been stopped by Obama, how do you propose dealing with the resulting rise of the taliban/al queda (taq) and terrorism directed at us?

do you think the taq would lay back and leave us alone if we just get out of their region?

You're assuming that spending a trillion dollars a year blowing shit up in Iraq and Afghanistan is an effective way of combating 'terrorists'. The results suggest otherwise.

david gibson
06-22-2010, 02:06 PM
You're assuming that spending a trillion dollars a year blowing shit up in Iraq and Afghanistan is an effective way of combating 'terrorists'. The results suggest otherwise.

i didnt assume a dam thing, i simply asked you a question, which you refused to answer. i really would like to know how you would have obama handle terrorism.

some people do think that they will leave us alone if we leave them alone. the times square fool just said that attacks will continue as long as we terrorize muslims, which hints that they will stop if we will.

simple question, if you have a better method all i asked is for you to share it.

dnf777
06-22-2010, 02:11 PM
Next we'll be in Somalia, then Uraguay, then rural China, then Somwhereelseistan....where does it end?

BTW: McChyrstal is toast. you can't talk like that in uniform!

david gibson
06-22-2010, 02:16 PM
Next we'll be in Somalia, then Uraguay, then rural China, then Somwhereelseistan....where does it end?

BTW: McChyrstal is toast. you can't talk like that in uniform!

so then whats your answer? if you ignore the problem it doesnt go away, you should know that in your profession.

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 02:22 PM
i didnt assume a dam thing, i simply asked you a question, which you refused to answer. i really would like to know how you would have obama handle terrorism.

some people do think that they will leave us alone if we leave them alone. the times square fool just said that attacks will continue as long as we terrorize muslims, which hints that they will stop if we will.

simple question, if you have a better method all i asked is for you to share it.

From what I've seen and heard the most effective way to deal with international terrorists is to invest in international enforcement networks of basic Police work combined with clandestine operations and targeted tactical responses. Standing armies do little to reduce the number of enemies and does a lot to increase the number of enraged people willing to end their lives to get a hit on us.
We've been spending nearly a trillion dollars a year for what, 8 years now, on waging a conventional war in the Middle East. Are we safer today? Of the terrorist attempts that have been averted, I think all of them were the result of police work or just plain good luck and had nothing to do with our Military efforts.

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 02:23 PM
i didnt assume a dam thing, i simply asked you a question, which you refused to answer. i really would like to know how you would have obama handle terrorism.

some people do think that they will leave us alone if we leave them alone. the times square fool just said that attacks will continue as long as we terrorize muslims, which hints that they will stop if we will.

simple question, if you have a better method all i asked is for you to share it.

BTW, that's not a "simple question".

david gibson
06-22-2010, 02:35 PM
From what I've seen and heard the most effective way to deal with international terrorists is to invest in international enforcement networks of basic Police work combined with clandestine operations and targeted tactical responses. Standing armies do little to reduce the number of enemies and does a lot to increase the number of enraged people willing to end their lives to get a hit on us.
We've been spending nearly a trillion dollars a year for what, 8 years now, on waging a conventional war in the Middle East. Are we safer today? Of the terrorist attempts that have been averted, I think all of them were the result of police work or just plain good luck and had nothing to do with our Military efforts.


thanks for finally answering the question, as vague and utopian as the answer is. was that so hard? and on that i'll let you have the last word. i just wondered how you would do it. no trap or attack.

gman0046
06-22-2010, 02:39 PM
What does Obong know about the military? Nothing. He never wore the uniform of the U.S. military. McChrystals only mistake was telling the truth in the Rolling Stone interview. What a disgrace having a war hero like McChrystal reporting to someone like Obongo. It makes me cringe when I see Obongo on TV saluting members of the U.S. military. I don't believe he's earned that right.

Buzz
06-22-2010, 02:53 PM
I don't believe he's earned that right.

Might want to refer to the constitution.

dnf777
06-22-2010, 02:58 PM
so then whats your answer? if you ignore the problem it doesnt go away, you should know that in your profession.

I don't have an answer. What's yours? How did we survive as a country for 220 years without occupying all four corners of the earth? The terrorists will scatter like cockroaches everytime we turn the light on them. Maybe financial and network disruption are the best answer?

gman0046
06-22-2010, 03:13 PM
No mater what, my stomach still churns when I see Obongo a Kenyan, salute a member of the U.S. military.

gman0046
06-22-2010, 03:28 PM
The best thing for McChrystal would be to get fired.. A war hero getting fired by Obongo is absurd

dnf777
06-22-2010, 03:44 PM
The best thing for McChrystal would be to get fired.. A war hero getting fired by Obongo is absurd

What is your definition of a "war hero"?
How does McChrystal fit?

President Obama is Commander in Chief of all US Armed Forces. That deserves a salute, however if any uniformed service member does not agree, he or she is free NOT to salute, as it is a "courtesy" only. I would add that it would be quite foolish to take such liberty with the POTUS, no matter who it is.

I share your frustration however. I felt the same anger towards another "war time" president, who never served a combat day in his life, yet saw fit to ride in a pilot's lap wearing a flight uniform for a photo op.

road kill
06-22-2010, 04:01 PM
What is your definition of a "war hero"?
How does McChrystal fit?

President Obama is Commander in Chief of all US Armed Forces. That deserves a salute, however if any uniformed service member does not agree, he or she is free NOT to salute, as it is a "courtesy" only. I would add that it would be quite foolish to take such liberty with the POTUS, no matter who it is.

I share your frustration however. I felt the same anger towards another "war time" president, who never served a combat day in his life, yet saw fit to ride in a pilot's lap wearing a flight uniform for a photo op.
I am still asking who hired this guy???





rk

Gerry Clinchy
06-22-2010, 04:02 PM
McChrystal has been summoned to DC and is about to be handed his head. Here's a WaPo article from this morning: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062200813_pf.html

From the article:


That right there is infuriating and exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about when you (Gerry) and I were discussing his appointment and "new" strategy awhile back. I had reservations about it then, and if the above anecdotes are any indication of the strategy in-practice then I know for sure I don't like it.

McCrystal deserves to be sacked based on that article. Beyond the disrespect that he's publically shown to his bosses (and the elected offices they hold), I seriously question the wisdom and judgement of a general who would not only say that stuff but be dumb enough to say it in front of a reporter knowing that it's going to be published. Moreover, he's let that attitude infect his subordinate officers (based on their equally boneheaded comments).

Unfortunately for all, you have proven correct, Hew. I think there is merit in the concept of protecting civilians wherever possible ... but it would appear that the approach has been taken to an ineffective extreme. What good does it do to patrol if you're only going to patrol where there is no chance you'll need lethal force? That can only be the case if you stay away from the bad guys ... and that doesn't make much military sense to me.

OTOH, the concept of winning the trust of the civilian population does have merit. Implementing the concept is the problem.

Did you notice in the article that Karzai was supportive of McChrystal? Not so sure that Karzai's "endorsement" is encouraging, since Karzai seems to be a liablity rather than an asset in making progress in Afghanistan.

It must have been hard for McChrystal to own up to his error and apologize. I'm sure he has to be aware that doing so is not enough to keep his head off the chopping block. So, I will give him credit for doing the right thing. Probably not possible for a CIC to do anything but fire him. OTOH, who will take his place?

BonMallari
06-22-2010, 04:14 PM
You guys act as if this is the first time a general has clashed with his CIC...this has been happening since Grant clashed with Lincoln in the Civil War...MacArthur vs FDR / Truman..Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf vs Bush 41....historically speaking there has always been an uneasiness between those in battle and those on Capitol Hill...IMHO where ALL the non military POTUS make their mistake is that they dont unleash the hounds and allow the military to do the job they were trained for...they dictate strategy from a diplomatic angle..war is ugly, its not a diplomatic mission

former Army brat regards

gman0046
06-22-2010, 04:24 PM
dnf777, I know you've done everything according to your posts (not that anyone believes you), but maybe you can tell us about your distinguished military career that gives you the right to question wether or not McCrystal is a war hero. Have you been in combat anywhere other then Franklin, Pa? McCrystal has.

Buzz
06-22-2010, 04:29 PM
dnf777, I know you've done everything according to your posts (not that anyone believes you), but maybe you can tell us about your distinguished military career that gives you the right to question wether or not McCrystal is a war hero. Have you been in combat anywhere other then Franklin, Pa? McCrystal has.

He didn't say he wasn't a war hero. He asked you how you define one and how McCrystal fits.

gman0046
06-22-2010, 04:40 PM
Still waiting for dnf777's war record and reply. MCchrystal been presented with a Bronze Star. Does that qualify for the title of war hero dnf777 & buzz?

YardleyLabs
06-22-2010, 04:40 PM
dnf777, I know you've done everything according to your posts (not that anyone believes you), but maybe you can tell us about your distinguished military career that gives you the right to question wether or not McCrystal is a war hero. Have you been in combat anywhere other then Franklin, Pa? McCrystal has.
Has he actually had front-line combat experience? His junior officer career seems to have been entirely post Vietnam with no subsequent combt exposure except as a general officer behind the lines. Am I missing something? I am not attempting to denigrate his experience, which is impressive, but you seem to be crediting him with experience he does not have.

road kill
06-22-2010, 04:43 PM
So.....who hired McChrystal???


Someone must know?:rolleyes:




rk

gman0046
06-22-2010, 05:07 PM
Yardley, glad to see you joined the other Liberals in questioning McChrystals credentials. He won the Bronze Star and Distinguished Service Medal. You don't get that for cleaning latrines. Have you or any other bashers on this site ever attained the rank of Four Star General?

Hew
06-22-2010, 05:11 PM
A CNN says McChrystal has offered his resignation.

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 05:15 PM
Still waiting for dnf777's war record and reply. MCchrystal been presented with a Bronze Star. Does that qualify for the title of war hero dnf777 & buzz?

The issue is NOT about dnf777. Why can't you carry on a debate without trying to discredit the other person?

Hew
06-22-2010, 05:19 PM
Have you or any other bashers on this site ever attained the rank of Four Star General?
Given your frequent critiques of Obama I'm guessing you must be Bill Clinton or George Bush. Welcome to the site, Mr. President. :D

I recall from my Dad's and other relatives time in the Vietnam/post-Vietnam era Army that being in Special Forces for any length of time was a career killer because those officers were pigeon holed as being "snake eaters" who knew very little about commanding sizable forces, integration of arms, logistics, playing well with others, protocol, arse kissing, etc. McChrystal seems to have reinforced that stereotype to some degree.

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 05:29 PM
Given your frequent critiques of Obama I'm guessing you must be Bill Clinton or George Bush. Welcome to the site, Mr. President. :D

I recall from my Dad's and other relatives time in the Vietnam/post-Vietnam era Army that being in Special Forces for any length of time was a career killer because those officers were pigeon holed as being "snake eaters" who knew very little about commanding sizable forces, integration of arms, logistics, playing well with others, protocol, arse kissing, etc. McChrystal seems to have reinforced that stereotype to some degree.

Perhaps. I still think he was either drunk or seduced. Or maybe he was going to resign anyway, and wanted to go out in a blaze. It would suit the temperament you defined above.

caryalsobrook
06-22-2010, 05:31 PM
The issue is NOT about dnf777. Why can't you carry on a debate without trying to discredit the other person?

Sound advice dipity. Good for us all. I had no fun answering about "lazy dentists playing golf all the time since I said I wa a dentist.

gman0046
06-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Hew, were you in the military or are you like dnf777? Questioning if wether or not a Bronze Star winner is a war hero? What was your highest rank? Was it above Four Star General? Or maybe E1 or E2? Besides dnf777 raised the issue I'm still waiting for his reply. Nice of other liberals to come to his defense.

Hew
06-22-2010, 05:45 PM
Perhaps. I still think he was either drunk or seduced. Or maybe he was going to resign anyway, and wanted to go out in a blaze. It would suit the temperament you defined above.
I in no way meant to characterize SF officers as lunatics, drunks or not in control of their faculties...just that back in those days, according to my relatives, anyway, that there was a prejudice against officers with a heavy SF background as not being sophisticated or "nuanced" enough to rise beyond Colonel.

gman0046
06-22-2010, 05:49 PM
Hew, it sounds as you have no direct knowledge of Special Forces members. Your relatives must have been wrong as McCrystal rose to Four Star General. Why do you post such nonsense?

Hew
06-22-2010, 05:50 PM
Hew, were you in the military or are you like dnf777? Questioning if wether or not a Bronze Star winner is a war hero? What was your highest rank? Was it above Four Star General? Or maybe E1 or E2? Besides dnf777 raised the issue I'm still waiting for his reply. Nice of other liberals to come to his defense.
Why is everything you type a vein-popping rant? It really doesn't matter what you're writing about...it could be about puppies, kittens or orphans and you sound like you're trying to squeeze a 5 pound turd out of a 1 pound-rated hole.

depittydawg
06-22-2010, 05:55 PM
Hew, were you in the military or are you like dnf777? Questioning if wether or not a Bronze Star winner is a war hero? What was your highest rank? Was it above Four Star General? Or maybe E1 or E2? Besides dnf777 raised the issue I'm still waiting for his reply. Nice of other liberals to come to his defense.

So you're saying you agree that Senator Kerry is a war hero then?

gman0046
06-22-2010, 05:57 PM
I never posted about kittens or orphans. Just about the failure of Obongo and his Socialist agenda. Too bad you can't deal with the fact he's a DUD.

huntinman
06-22-2010, 05:58 PM
So you're saying you agree that Senator Kerry is a war hero then?

Yeah, if you count shooting a barrel of rice and then getting a purple heart for having a few grains of rice stuck in your a$$. Then having your commanding officer turn down the PH request and then you go around him and submit it anyway. True hero

Hew
06-22-2010, 05:59 PM
Hew, it sounds as you have no direct knowledge of Special Forces members. Your relatives must have been wrong as McCrystal rose to Four Star General. Why do you post such nonsense?
Easy there, Tiger. Grab a paper bag and breath in and out until you stop feeling lightheaded. :D

Just going from what an uncle who was a Capt. in the Green Berets and served on an A team on the Laos or Cambodian border (forget which/where). He said his SF background was not a career enhancer in a post-war Army and didn't stay in. An in-law topped out at Lt. Col. after spending, what he was told, was too much time in the SF for further advancement. I'm sure they were lying, though, and you know the real truth.

gman0046
06-22-2010, 06:04 PM
Hew, again obviously your relatives were wrong. McCrystal is a Four Star General. What don't you understand about that? Anything I can do to help you understand that?

Franco
06-22-2010, 06:06 PM
Is anyone really surprised that the current POTUS is not fit to be Commander In Chief?

gman0046
06-22-2010, 06:10 PM
Franco, it's just too bad Liberals can't see the way you do.

JDogger
06-22-2010, 06:23 PM
Why is everything you type a vein-popping rant? It really doesn't matter what you're writing about...it could be about puppies, kittens or orphans and you sound like you're trying to squeeze a 5 pound turd out of a 1 pound-rated hole.

:) chuckle

Hew
06-22-2010, 06:26 PM
Hew, again obviously your relatives were wrong. McCrystal is a Four Star General. What don't you understand about that? Anything I can do to help you understand that?

I wrote that during my relative's time in the Army they said there was a prejudice against the SF. McChyrstal came along a full generation of officers later and obviously that prejudice was not as detrimental in his era because he rose to 4 star. My only comment was that, with respect to McChrystal, some of those old stereotypes might have been well-founed.

Feel free to grunt another post out if you'd like, but I'm through with you.

road kill
06-22-2010, 06:33 PM
So.....who hired McChrystal???


Someone must know?:rolleyes:




rk

Obama hired him.

Been waiting for the BLAME game!!;)


rk

Gerry Clinchy
06-22-2010, 06:41 PM
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/119236?RS_show_page=0
This is the original Rolling Stone article. I think it's worth reading the article if you're going to discuss it.

To some degree it answers Yardley's question about front line experience, as it tells of McC joining his foot soldiers in some operations; not just photo-ops.

I find some confusion as well ...

1) When the decisioin was made to "surge" in A'stan, there were many reasons put forth as to why A'stan was important. Now, statements are being made that it is not important, since the base of Al Qaeda & Taliban has moved to Pakistan.

2) If A'stan is not important then why are the T insurgents defending their ground there so tenaciously? It must hold some importance to them?

3) Pakistan was quite "friendly" to U.S. needs during the Iraq invasion. It is unclear to me how Pakistan came to now "host" the AW and T?

4) What caused Pakistan's "change of heart"? Are we really doing anything useful to counteract that? Have AQ and T simply told P'stan to give them some "cover" until they can go back to A'stan and pick up wherever they left off once they weary the Americans?

It makes sense to me that if A'stan got too hot, AQ and T would retreat and use "guerilla" warfare until they felt strong enough to return their home base to A'stan.

Pals
06-22-2010, 06:52 PM
"the wimps in the whitehouse."

Sums up what many, many Americans feel. Oh yeah, and what many world leaders think as well.

O Bow Ma and his chicago thugs.......just embarrassing.

mjh345
06-22-2010, 07:00 PM
Yardley, glad to see you joined the other Liberals in questioning McChrystals credentials. He won the Bronze Star and Distinguished Service Medal. You don't get that for cleaning latrines. Have you or any other bashers on this site ever attained the rank of Four Star General?

Gman, it would appear that you feel that one shouldn't criticize McChrystal unless they have attained the rank of 4 star general.

So I'm wondering since you frequently criticize Obama, you must be an ex POTUS. Which one, "W"?, Slick Willie?, "W's" daddy?, the Peanut Farmer?, or maybe the ghost of Reagan?

mjh345
06-22-2010, 07:02 PM
Hew, were you in the military or are you like dnf777? Questioning if wether or not a Bronze Star winner is a war hero? What was your highest rank? Was it above Four Star General? Or maybe E1 or E2? Besides dnf777 raised the issue I'm still waiting for his reply. Nice of other liberals to come to his defense.

You aren't accusing HEW of being a liberal are you?

gman0046
06-22-2010, 07:35 PM
No I don't have to. He's posting stuff his relatives told him about the military 40-45 years ago. Whats the point? If Hew is correct McCrystal must really be something to attain the rank of Four Star General.

Gerry Clinchy
06-22-2010, 07:39 PM
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/boot/318251
Another point of view

YardleyLabs
06-22-2010, 08:24 PM
Yardley, glad to see you joined the other Liberals in questioning McChrystals credentials. He won the Bronze Star and Distinguished Service Medal. You don't get that for cleaning latrines. Have you or any other bashers on this site ever attained the rank of Four Star General?
Actually, if you read my post, you will see a question, not a bash. I think he has an impressive resume, but I did not see where he received direct combat experience. I was not aware of his medals and do not know what they are for. If your definition of a liberal is one who voted for Obama, then presumably McChrystal and Colin Powell qualify.

gman0046
06-22-2010, 08:40 PM
I don't think McChrystal would vote for Obongo again. He's been exposed as an incompetent. Isn't that what McChrystal said to Rolling Stone?

dnf777
06-22-2010, 08:53 PM
Hew, were you in the military or are you like dnf777? Questioning if wether or not a Bronze Star winner is a war hero? What was your highest rank? Was it above Four Star General? Or maybe E1 or E2? Besides dnf777 raised the issue I'm still waiting for his reply. Nice of other liberals to come to his defense.


Not that I owe you or anyone an explanation, but just to show you for the jerk you are, I served 14 years total, 4 active, with one combat tour of duty in Southwest Asia with Operation Desert Southern Watch and Operation Desert Fox. No Bronze Star, but just a crappy little ARCOM, AFEM, and few other ribbons that would be worthless in your book.

As usual, WRONG AGAIN! You're batting .1000 when it comes to dumb-a$$ comments! Congratulations!

dnf777
06-22-2010, 08:56 PM
Why is everything you type a vein-popping rant? It really doesn't matter what you're writing about...it could be about puppies, kittens or orphans and you sound like you're trying to squeeze a 5 pound turd out of a 1 pound-rated hole.

That's what happens when little sissy-boys get their milk money taken away from them everyday in school, and grow up and never get lucky! I've seen this before. Kind of like Jason Alexander in the Brad Paisley video! :D:D

Eric Johnson
06-22-2010, 09:25 PM
Yardley, glad to see you joined the other Liberals in questioning McChrystals credentials. He won the Bronze Star and Distinguished Service Medal. You don't get that for cleaning latrines. Have you or any other bashers on this site ever attained the rank of Four Star General?

Distinguished Service Medal or Distinguished Service Cross? The former is awarded quite a bit more frequently than the latter. The latter is the second highest military award, second only to the Medal of Honor.

I can't find it is his bio.

Eric

huntinman
06-22-2010, 10:00 PM
If your definition of a liberal is one who voted for Obama, then presumably McChrystal and Colin Powell qualify.

I don't know about McChrystal, but Colin Powell is definitely a lib along the lines of Charlie Crist... In no way is he conservative.

Marvin S
06-22-2010, 10:12 PM
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/boot/318251
Another point of view

IMO - the Messiah is caught between a rock & a hard choice.

When the General requested more troops BHO dithered away, finally giving him most, but not all the troops requested.

No one, GW's regime included, really reined in the corruption so prevalent in Afghanistan, so the Afghan's have no loyal functionable military.

Should BHO remove McCh then it become's BHO's baby :).

Should BHO retain the General, as I believe he should, any request not responded to with a reasonable degree of haste will create an appearance of pettiness on the part of his highness :).

Again, IMO, the general played his hand well, should he be relieved he will be viewed as someone that stood up for his troops :cool:.

BonMallari
06-22-2010, 10:14 PM
you dont win a Bronze Star or DSC...you are awarded them

david gibson
06-22-2010, 10:21 PM
That's what happens when little sissy-boys get their milk money taken away from them everyday in school, and grow up and never get lucky! I've seen this before. Kind of like Jason Alexander in the Brad Paisley video! :D:D

whoa dude! between that and post 64 i feel for you! i am humbled as to your service, thank you. now i know why you are in your chosen profession. it takes a lot of man to handle a ton of crap., and i mean it. seriously. i have a lot of respect for the medical profession, and you deserve the benefit of the doubt.

i still have issues with your liberalism, so you are not scott free....lol

dnf777
06-22-2010, 10:21 PM
Again, IMO, the general played his hand well, should he be relieved he will be viewed as someone that stood up for his troops :cool:.

I wouldn't argue with what you wrote except the above...he could stand up for his troops much more effectively if he didn't get himself canned for stupid remarks. They may be true or not, but they're not appropriate for a man in his position. There were several generals who disagreed with Bush's ill-conceived wars, but did their job, kept their mouths shut, and spoke out only after resigning their commission. Most kept quiet even after that, out of respect.

caryalsobrook
06-22-2010, 10:51 PM
Good reply dnf777. You could have also said most presidents ke quiet out of respect too could you not have?

M&K's Retrievers
06-22-2010, 11:01 PM
Obama hired him.

Been waiting for the BLAME game!!;)


rk

Then it's Bush's fault. His term was over. Dipshat replaced him so it's Bush's fault. Everyone knows that.

Hew
06-22-2010, 11:34 PM
I wouldn't argue with what you wrote except the above...he could stand up for his troops much more effectively if he didn't get himself canned for stupid remarks.
Exactly. And on the eve of a major offensive to boot.

Along the lines of Gerry's last article, here's another article that makes some compelling reasons why he should not be removed from command right now: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062202069_pf.html

Whatever Obama does I wish he'd do it soon. I'm sick of seeing/hearing that smarmy bastard Robert Gibbs publically chastising McChrystal...that's Obama's job; not Gibbs'.

Eric Johnson
06-22-2010, 11:42 PM
Whatever happens to the General, I wouldn't want to be the PIO that convinced him that giving time to a Rolling Stone writer was a good idea.

Eric

dnf777
06-23-2010, 05:40 AM
Whatever happens to the General, I wouldn't want to be the PIO that convinced him that giving time to a Rolling Stone writer was a good idea.

Eric

Who was that? We have no records of such person existing....:cool:

dnf777
06-23-2010, 05:43 AM
Good reply dnf777. You could have also said most presidents ke quiet out of respect too could you not have?

When it comes to former presidents criticizing sitting presidents, yes. But sitting presidents keeping quiet towards generals? No way. Someone pointed out the many riffs between presidents and generals throughout history.

huntinman
06-23-2010, 09:30 AM
Who was that? We have no records of such person existing....:cool:

From a column on Foxnews.com:

Unfortunately for Gen. McChrystal, rather than rely on his seasoned military public affairs staff, he apparently sought and accepted the advice of a relatively junior and inexperienced civilian “strategic communications” contractor by the name of Duncan Boothby. Boothby who has already resigned, arranged the media embed with reporter Michael Hastings of Rolling Stone, who was already working on an alarmist-sounding feature entitled “The Runaway General.”

zeus3925
06-23-2010, 10:54 AM
This is a no win for Obama. Keep McCrystal on, he will then be perceived as a wimp. Fire him and the republicans will whine incessantly until November.

I say fire the General. This is a MacArthur moment and he has to go. If we don't have another general as capable, then our military is in bad shape--something I don't believe is true.

depittydawg
06-23-2010, 11:02 AM
This is a no win for Obama. Keep McCrystal on, he will then be perceived as a wimp. Fire him and the republicans will whine incessantly until November.

I say fire the General. This is a MacArthur moment and he has to go. If we don't have another general as capable then, our military is in bad shape--something I don't believe is true.

If you analyze the progress or lack of, in the Afghan war, the guy should go anyway. It's likely he was already on the block and knew it, hence his public outburst.

Cody Covey
06-23-2010, 11:33 AM
This is a no win for Obama. Keep McCrystal on, he will then be perceived as a wimp. Fire him and the republicans will whine incessantly until November.

I say fire the General. This is a MacArthur moment and he has to go. If we don't have another general as capable, then our military is in bad shape--something I don't believe is true.

I highly doubt that you will see from some of the "radicals" on this board are even saying he should go. I haven't heard one person on fox news say he should stay (I don't usually watch Hannity so not sure what he has to say since I'm sure you will bring that up.)

Roger Perry
06-23-2010, 12:04 PM
Hew, were you in the military or are you like dnf777? Questioning if wether or not a Bronze Star winner is a war hero? What was your highest rank? Was it above Four Star General? Or maybe E1 or E2? Besides dnf777 raised the issue I'm still waiting for his reply. Nice of other liberals to come to his defense.

In which war was General McChrystal a war hero????????
U.S. Army Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal
. Age: 55, born Aug. 14, 1954
. Childhood: grew up in a military family; father fought in Korea and Vietnam and retired as a two-star general; four brothers also joined armed forces .
. Military: West Point graduate, class of 1976; he is a Green Beret and a Ranger; commanded 75th Ranger Regiment and served tours in Saudi Arabia during the Persian Gulf War in 1991; served in Afghanistan as chief of staff of military operations in 2001 and 2002.
. 2003 to 2008, led Joint Special Operations Command, which oversees the military's elite and secretive special operations forces. During Iraq surge, his team killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of al-Qaida in Iraq. His leadership is credited with the December 2003 capture of Saddam Hussein.
. Oversaw a task force that was criticized in 2006 for abusing detainees and harsh interrogation methods at Baghdad's Camp Nama.
. March 2007, Pentagon inspector general report singled out McChrystal for his role in the 2004 death of ex-NFL star and U.S. soldier Pat Tillman. The two-year investigation cleared McChrystal of any official wrongdoing, but it faulted him for failing to immediately notify Tillman's family of the military's suspicions that Tillman's death was the result of friendly fire.
. June 2009, replaced Gen. David McKiernan, who had been asked to resign, as top commander in Afghanistan.

Oh, and Stan, he was origionally hired by Bush.

Gerry Clinchy
06-23-2010, 12:25 PM
If you analyze the progress or lack of, in the Afghan war, the guy should go anyway. It's likely he was already on the block and knew it, hence his public outburst.

It took POTUS weeks to decide about the troop strength, but you would expect the general to get the job done in 90 days? Not realistic.

Even POTUS was giving it 12 mos. And, for the COIN approach, 12 mos would be optimistic given the scope of the task to gain civilian trust in the Afghan society that has been beset with conflict for so long.

depittydawg
06-23-2010, 12:46 PM
It took POTUS weeks to decide about the troop strength, but you would expect the general to get the job done in 90 days? Not realistic.

Even POTUS was giving it 12 mos. And, for the COIN approach, 12 mos would be optimistic given the scope of the task to gain civilian trust in the Afghan society that has been beset with conflict for so long.

It is in fact an impossible task. There is no such thing as a "friendly" occupation. What America needs to decide is pretty simple. Do we want to replace our economic empire with a Militaristic Empire or don't we? Bush answered a resounding YES as potus. So far Obama has simply gone along for the ride. He needs to commit, one way or the other.

road kill
06-23-2010, 01:10 PM
In which war was General McChrystal a war hero????????
U.S. Army Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal
. Age: 55, born Aug. 14, 1954
. Childhood: grew up in a military family; father fought in Korea and Vietnam and retired as a two-star general; four brothers also joined armed forces .
. Military: West Point graduate, class of 1976; he is a Green Beret and a Ranger; commanded 75th Ranger Regiment and served tours in Saudi Arabia during the Persian Gulf War in 1991; served in Afghanistan as chief of staff of military operations in 2001 and 2002.
. 2003 to 2008, led Joint Special Operations Command, which oversees the military's elite and secretive special operations forces. During Iraq surge, his team killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of al-Qaida in Iraq. His leadership is credited with the December 2003 capture of Saddam Hussein.
. Oversaw a task force that was criticized in 2006 for abusing detainees and harsh interrogation methods at Baghdad's Camp Nama.
. March 2007, Pentagon inspector general report singled out McChrystal for his role in the 2004 death of ex-NFL star and U.S. soldier Pat Tillman. The two-year investigation cleared McChrystal of any official wrongdoing, but it faulted him for failing to immediately notify Tillman's family of the military's suspicions that Tillman's death was the result of friendly fire.
. June 2009, replaced Gen. David McKiernan, who had been asked to resign, as top commander in Afghanistan.

Oh, and Stan, he was origionally hired by Bush.
Not for this job.
And if all you post is correct......poor leadership at the top to hire him!!

It's all on Obama Roger, no way out!!



rk

Eric Johnson
06-23-2010, 01:28 PM
Who was that? We have no records of such person existing....:cool:

There's always a Public Information Officer around a 4 star....always. A General is very, very well protected from the press. Generals have better things to do that to juggle their time and schedules with newswriters. Patton taught them that.<g>

Eric

Roger Perry
06-23-2010, 01:38 PM
My question still stands and waits to be answered by gman, In which war was McChrystal a war hero?

Franco
06-23-2010, 01:39 PM
McChrystal was relieved of his duty a little while ago for speaking the truth. However, as a soldier he should have known to keep his mouth shut and let the retired soldiers speak their mind.

Roger Perry
06-23-2010, 01:44 PM
McChrystal was relieved of his duty a little while ago for speaking the truth. However, as a soldier he should have known to keep his mouth shut and let the retired soldiers speak their mind.

Maybe now the General can get more than 4 hours of sleep each night.

road kill
06-23-2010, 01:54 PM
Maybe now the General can get more than 4 hours of sleep each night.

Yeah there is that.....and then this;

Maybe Obama could get in an extra round of golf or 2??:D



rk

Roger Perry
06-23-2010, 02:18 PM
Yeah there is that.....and then this;

Maybe Obama could get in an extra round of golf or 2??:D



rk

President Bush recently spent his 879th day at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, since the Supreme Court, in all its great wisdom, elevated him to the presidency.

Which would you rather a President do --- take an occasional day off to golf or take 2 1/2 years off for vacation days?

gman0046
06-23-2010, 02:21 PM
Now my day is complete. Another Perry post on Bush. Whats with your fixation on Bush when Obongo has spent the last 1 1/2 years doing nothing?

Gerry Clinchy
06-23-2010, 02:23 PM
McChrystal Out, Petraeus In as Afghanistan Commander

President Obama announced Wednesday that he has accepted Gen. Stanley McChrystal's resignation as the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan and nominated Gen. David Petraeus to replace him, following a scathing article in which he and his aides were quoted criticizing the administration

Fox News today

huntinman
06-23-2010, 02:27 PM
The General is better off, who would want to work for a military hating, enemy loving pansy ass president?

Roger Perry
06-23-2010, 02:30 PM
Now my day is complete. Another Perry post on Bush. Whats with your fixation on Bush when Obongo has spent the last 1 1/2 years doing nothing?

I am still waiting for you to tell us in which war was General McChrystal a war hero.

And as far as a Bush comment, who else would you compare Obama's days of vacation to other than the last President to hold office?

Will you have a problem with comparing President Obama's time in office to what the next President will do? I won't.

huntinman
06-23-2010, 02:32 PM
I am still waiting for you to tell us in which war was General McChrystal a war hero.

And as far as a Bush comment, who else would you compare Obama's days of vacation to other than the last President to hold office?

It would be easier to count the days that Obama was actually in the Oval Office. He is the Relaxer in Chief.

gman0046
06-23-2010, 03:04 PM
Perry your posts are to ignorant to respond to. Its the same old Bush nonsense day and day out. Give it up.

depittydawg
06-23-2010, 03:18 PM
The General is better off, who would want to work for a military hating, enemy loving pansy ass president?

Uh huh .... I think maybe you've gone over the edge.

Franco
06-23-2010, 03:19 PM
Now my day is complete. Another Perry post on Bush. Whats with your fixation on Bush when Obongo has spent the last 1 1/2 years doing nothing?

Last 1.5 years doing nothing? Heck, he spent his entire very short career as a Senator running for President!

depittydawg
06-23-2010, 03:19 PM
Now my day is complete. Another Perry post on Bush. Whats with your fixation on Bush when Obongo has spent the last 1 1/2 years doing nothing?

Yawn.... Stretch .......... Belch .....

Next please

paul young
06-23-2010, 03:20 PM
the same could be said of yours and others on here, all we need to do is delete the name "Bush" and insert the name "Obama".-Paul

huntinman
06-23-2010, 03:20 PM
Uh huh .... I think maybe you've gone over the edge.

You can think whatever you would like.

Gerry Clinchy
06-23-2010, 03:37 PM
Does it seem odd to anyone else: McChrystal was described in one article as "politcially savvy". Eric mentions how well-protected from media a general like him would be.

The oddity ... that a politically savvy fellow, with many years of service, would give an interview as ill-conceived as this one to, of all publications, Rolling Stone?

huntinman
06-23-2010, 03:41 PM
Does it seem odd to anyone else: McChrystal was described in one article as "politcially savvy". Eric mentions how well-protected from media a general like him would be.

The oddity ... that a politically savvy fellow, with many years of service, would give an interview as ill-conceived as this one to, of all publications, Rolling Stone?

Maybe he did it on purpose to expose Bambi's lack of leadership in the "overseas contingency plan" against those people who triggered "man caused disasters".

road kill
06-23-2010, 03:43 PM
the same could be said of yours and others on here, all we need to do is delete the name "Bush" and insert the name "Obama".-Paul

The reason a lot of us here talk about Obama is because he actually IS the President!!

Not Bush!!
Ya see, we were all told by you independent middle of the roaders about "Hope & Change," but everything this guy does is OK becuase Bush used to do it.
Ironic....huh??

See what I'm sayin'???

Just tryin' to help!!:D


rk

ducknwork
06-23-2010, 04:23 PM
President Bush recently spent his 879th day at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, since the Supreme Court, in all its great wisdom, elevated him to the presidency.

Which would you rather a President do --- take an occasional day off to golf or take 2 1/2 years off for vacation days?

Maybe neither one of the situations is that great. Since we can't change what happened in the past, why don't we 'hope' that the current prez will 'change' the typical MO? Or are you content to leave it at status quo since he hails from your side of the aisle?

Marvin S
06-23-2010, 04:56 PM
The POTUS was having a brief converse with the General:

Things were obviously not going the way the General outlined & the POTUS could sense this so said "I bet when I die, you'll relieve yourself on my grave."

To which the General replied "No Sir, I've always said that when I get out of the Army, I'll never wait in another line."

huntinman
06-23-2010, 05:04 PM
The POTUS was having a brief converse with the General:

Things were obviously not going the way the General outlined & the POTUS could sense this so said "I bet when I die, you'll relieve yourself on my grave."

To which the General replied "No Sir, I've always said that when I get out of the Army, I'll never wait in another line."

Classic! That may not be too far from what actually happened.

Buzz
06-24-2010, 09:24 AM
Maybe neither one of the situations is that great. Since we can't change what happened in the past, why don't we 'hope' that the current prez will 'change' the typical MO? Or are you content to leave it at status quo since he hails from your side of the aisle?


I don't know about you, but I want my president working 24/7/365 x 4. :rolleyes:

M&K's Retrievers
06-24-2010, 09:51 AM
I don't know about you, but I want my president working 24/7/365 x 4. :rolleyes:

I would prefer that this guy take the rest of his term off. Join the PGA Tour, form a band, play horse, anything but continuing to screw up this country.:(

ducknwork
06-24-2010, 11:33 AM
I don't know about you, but I want my president working 24/7/365 x 4. :rolleyes:

That is exactly what I was getting at. :rolleyes: backatcha.

Apparently Roger is okay with O taking so much time off, regardless of what is going on. After all, Bush did it too! If Rog disagrees, we sure wouldn't know it, because he refuses to speak out against anything that his messiah does.

david gibson
06-24-2010, 11:52 AM
President Bush recently spent his 879th day at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, since the Supreme Court, in all its great wisdom, elevated him to the presidency.

Which would you rather a President do --- take an occasional day off to golf or take 2 1/2 years off for vacation days?

at one point he had 452 days at the Ranch out of 2599, which is 17.4%"
As a comparison, the average American gets 2 days off per week, 7 holidays and 10 days of vacation a year..
(52*2) + 17 = 111 which is 30.4%..
the Germans get 42 vacation days on average (roughly 40% not counting state holidays)
the French get about 37 (38% not counting state holidays)
the British... 28 (36% not counting state holidays)

Bush had an office in crawford where he worked during his "vacations". he had foreign dignitaries visit for business meetings, a phone, aids, etc

"Bush continued to receive daily national-security briefings, sign documents, hold teleconferences with aides and military commanders, and even meet with foreign leaders."
so to be fair, it would be better to count the actual number of hours he spent on the bike and wielding a chain saw vs the actual number of hours O is on the course or partying with the likes of sir paul.. probably not so big of a deal when you really look at it.

menmon
06-24-2010, 12:10 PM
I don't know about you, but I want my president working 24/7/365 x 4. :rolleyes:

What you want is a good staff working 24/7, because the presidents days are so full. And I assure you, they all are working when they are awake, no matter if they are on vacation or not.

The question when anyone works is "Is their work effective?"

And the answer to that with Obama is yes. Whether you like what he has done are not, his work has beared fruit.

Pals
06-24-2010, 12:35 PM
What you want is a good staff working 24/7, because the presidents days are so full. And I assure you, they all are working when they are awake, no matter if they are on vacation or not.

The question when anyone works is "Is their work effective?"

And the answer to that with Obama is yes. Whether you like what he has done are not, his work has beared fruit.


Seriously thanks for the laugh!!!! Barely limping along economy, trainwreck legislation of healthcare, Cap and Trade looming over us, absolute incompetence with foreign policies, total arrogance of state rights and disregard for the constitution. Lets not forget the overall selling out of any American values. If by bearing fruit you mean moving us towards a socialist form of government-well then you would be correct. God help us all.

,

david gibson
06-24-2010, 12:44 PM
Seriously thanks for the laugh!!!! Barely limping along economy, trainwreck legislation of healthcare, Cap and Trade looming over us, absolute incompetence with foreign policies, total arrogance of state rights and disregard for the constitution. Lets not forget the overall selling out of any American values. If by bearing fruit you mean moving us towards a socialist form of government-well then you would be correct. God help us all.

,

let me try the spin on it.

millions of people will now have free health care and the quality will increase while the cost will decrease to you and me, and doctors across the country are ecstatic!
we are on a path to energy dependency! he told us so last week, remember?
he has created millions of jobs! ok, a lot were temporary census jobs, but when jobless numbers went up last month he and biden told it was good news and its part of the recovery! this is "recovery summer"!
he has proven that he will sue a rogue state to protect the rights of illegal immigrants from a law that doesnt even really threaten such a thing, but they say it enough so it must be true.
his golf is better! and he doesnt bowl like he is in the "special olympics" anymore!
he has found a place where he can be a bully and not lose votes, because the gulf states are non-union and red anyway, so if he looks tough calling this moratorium then everyone in non-gulf and union states will love him more and he gets net positive votes, all at the expense of thousands of jobs lost in texas and louisiana of course. but since they are non-union jobs he will find a way to blame that on Bush.

hey - poison apples and rotten plums are still fruit, right?

menmon
06-24-2010, 04:47 PM
let me try the spin on it.

millions of people will now have free health care and the quality will increase while the cost will decrease to you and me, and doctors across the country are ecstatic!
we are on a path to energy dependency! he told us so last week, remember?
he has created millions of jobs! ok, a lot were temporary census jobs, but when jobless numbers went up last month he and biden told it was good news and its part of the recovery! this is "recovery summer"!
he has proven that he will sue a rogue state to protect the rights of illegal immigrants from a law that doesnt even really threaten such a thing, but they say it enough so it must be true.
his golf is better! and he doesnt bowl like he is in the "special olympics" anymore!
he has found a place where he can be a bully and not lose votes, because the gulf states are non-union and red anyway, so if he looks tough calling this moratorium then everyone in non-gulf and union states will love him more and he gets net positive votes, all at the expense of thousands of jobs lost in texas and louisiana of course. but since they are non-union jobs he will find a way to blame that on Bush.

hey - poison apples and rotten plums are still fruit, right?

Obviously you don't like his fruit but you just confirmed that he has accomplished a lot.

Don't forget about all the jobs BP is making to clean up its mess. Normally you would call these temporary jobs but these folks may make a life time career out of this with job titles as follows: bird washer, tar removers, oil skimmers, marsh rehabers, etc.

As for as what Obama has accomplished, it depends on what position you hold in the USA as to whether you like it or not. If you are an hourly worker making less than $20 per/hr and now you have healthcare..the healthcare bill is not a bad thing. If you are the employer of that person and been passing the cost of your employees healthcare to employers that provided good healthcare options, you probablly don't like it, because you are paying for their healthcare now instead of punting it to someone else.

Pals
06-24-2010, 05:16 PM
<sigh>

Don't own any property do you? Don't own your own business do you? Think that just because someone works hard they should pay for everyone else to have the same quality of life?? Blah, blah, blah.......whining about capitalism and then griping because all the jobs have dried up because we treat business owners like they are the enemy. You'll think the health care bill isn't a bad thing when you go to collect social security and you get a thank you note from the idiots in Washington instead of a check. The whole country will be broke, maybe that is what you consider "effective" leadership.

huntinman
06-24-2010, 05:25 PM
<sigh>

Don't own any property do you? Don't own your own business do you? Think that just because someone works hard they should pay for everyone else to have the same quality of life?? Blah, blah, blah.......whining about capitalism and then griping because all the jobs have dried up because we treat business owners like they are the enemy. You'll think the health care bill isn't a bad thing when you go to collect social security and you get a thank you note from the idiots in Washington instead of a check. The whole country will be broke, maybe that is what you consider "effective" leadership.

Nancy, don't you know?? That's economic justice. Like Barney Fwanks idea of what the housing market should be... everyone should own a home whether they can afford it or not.

Pals
06-24-2010, 05:33 PM
Ha! No kidding Bill, and just look what that great "leadership" landed us-the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Entire blocks now going to ruin and gangbangers, as people lose their homes, homes they could not afford in the first place. But hey don't worry--soon everyone will have nothing and no one will be happy. I'm paying off our mortgage early, and two other farms-modest house-that we took 12 years to fix up ourselves-we put it in land and saved. No vacations, no fancy wardrobes--live within our means. I pray that this country will survive the madness, I pray that the government won't take away my farms or make it so I can't afford the taxes. Mostly I just pray.................

menmon
06-24-2010, 05:40 PM
<sigh>

Don't own any property do you? Don't own your own business do you? Think that just because someone works hard they should pay for everyone else to have the same quality of life?? Blah, blah, blah.......whining about capitalism and then griping because all the jobs have dried up because we treat business owners like they are the enemy. You'll think the health care bill isn't a bad thing when you go to collect social security and you get a thank you note from the idiots in Washington instead of a check. The whole country will be broke, maybe that is what you consider "effective" leadership.

I own a bunch of property. I own a business and I work as a banker, financing business owners.

What I do know is that I'm better off with democrats making the laws and spending the money than I am with republicans doing it. Neither handle the country like I do my business, but the democrats at least focus their efforts in a way more suitable to my situation and most americans. Trust me the rich will survive and will always complain about paying taxes. See they have convinced you that you are rich too, so you need the rules to be like they want them. No matter what comes out of this deal in the Gulf, I assure you Exxon will do just fine, in fact they prospered most when Clinton was president, and they did fine when both the Bushs and Carter and Nixon. So get a life and start listening to music or sports and turn off FoxNews

dnf777
06-24-2010, 05:41 PM
Ha! No kidding Bill, and just look what that great "leadership" landed us-the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Entire blocks now going to ruin and gangbangers, as people lose their homes, homes they could not afford in the first place. But hey don't worry--soon everyone will have nothing and no one will be happy. I'm paying off our mortgage early, and two other farms-modest house-that we took 12 years to fix up ourselves-we put it in land and saved. No vacations, no fancy wardrobes--live within our means. I pray that this country will survive the madness, I pray that the government won't take away my farms or make it so I can't afford the taxes. Mostly I just pray.................

Yeah, if we just had the republican back in office, NONE of this would have happened! We need more Tom DeLays and Bill Frists to look out for us working guys! Damn ALL this mess is Frank's fault!!

huntinman
06-24-2010, 05:45 PM
Yeah, if we just had the republican back in office, NONE of this would have happened! We need more Tom DeLays and Bill Frists to look out for us working guys! Damn ALL this mess is Frank's fault!!

Now your'e starting to catch on...

Pals
06-24-2010, 05:51 PM
You know Dave I specifically said "the idiots" in washington. Both parties are to to blame. Franks was just the tip of the iceberg and whether you like it or not he played a huge role. THANK GOD no "independents" were involved in the mess. Oh wait, there are what.... 3 independents in Washington?? My, my what a convienent out for you :rolleyes:.

Stand for something or fall for anything. You think the current idiots are doing so great? What did the market do today?? See many patients with such bad stress worrying about making ends meet that they are walking heart attacks? Ask them how they feel about how great things are today.

Ranks right up there with our presidents assine comment about how the gulf will bounce right back from this disaster. The General was right: Wimps in Washington are the real enemy.

dnf777
06-24-2010, 06:01 PM
You know Dave I specifically said "the idiots" in washington. Both parties are to to blame. Franks was just the tip of the iceberg and whether you like it or not he played a huge role. THANK GOD no "independents" were involved in the mess. Oh wait, there are what.... 3 independents in Washington?? My, my what a convienent out for you :rolleyes:.

Stand for something or fall for anything. You think the current idiots are doing so great? What did the market do today?? See many patients with such bad stress worrying about making ends meet that they are walking heart attacks? Ask them how they feel about how great things are today.

Ranks right up there with our presidents assine comment about how the gulf will bounce right back from this disaster. The General was right: Wimps in Washington are the real enemy.

I do stand for something. I stand for earning my own keep. I stand for helping those who are trying to help themselves. I stand for personal responsibility and accountability. I stand for pride in my country when it's doing the right thing, and stand for fixing it when it isn't. I used to be a republican, until they abandoned all those things I stood for. I tried being a democrat for a short while, but was quickly ousted and nauseated. Now I'm just back to standing for the things I believe, and when a candidate comes along who shares those values, they get my vote, no matter what color tie they wear. And although I enjoy country music, and on occasion even get my Telecaster to make some pleasing twangy sounds, I try not to live my life by country song chorus lines! ;)

Pals
06-24-2010, 06:10 PM
But it is such a good song!! :)

david gibson
06-24-2010, 06:16 PM
I do stand for something. I stand for earning my own keep. I stand for helping those who are trying to help themselves. I stand for personal responsibility and accountability. I stand for pride in my country when it's doing the right thing, and stand for fixing it when it isn't. I used to be a republican, until they abandoned all those things I stood for. I tried being a democrat for a short while, but was quickly ousted and nauseated. Now I'm just back to standing for the things I believe, and when a candidate comes along who shares those values, they get my vote, no matter what color tie they wear. And although I enjoy country music, and on occasion even get my Telecaster to make some pleasing twangy sounds, I try not to live my life by country song chorus lines! ;)

but the fervor in which you support O and denigrate W puts your Independence status into question...

dnf777
06-24-2010, 07:20 PM
but the fervor in which you support O and denigrate W puts your Independence status into question...

Good. My friends on the other side of the aisle from you tell me the exact opposite. I'm not so sure that I support Obama, so much as point out what I think is unfair blame being heaped upon him for the mess that he inherited, and being blasted for the exact same things republicans did and got a free pass for.

You've heard me complain many times about his runaway spending. Actually, I complain about the exact same things that I complained about with Bush. Government expansion of power, uncontrolled massive deficits, and two wars we either need to get the hell out of, or enact a draft so that Americans will wake up and take note of what's going on, and give our volunteer troops a fair enlistment! Basically, I complain about how he's just carrying on Bush's failed policies. That is also why he is decreasing in the polls. Its NOT because Karl Rove fans are leaving the Obama camp just now!

freefall319
06-24-2010, 07:55 PM
Yardley, glad to see you joined the other Liberals in questioning McChrystals credentials. He won the Bronze Star and Distinguished Service Medal. You don't get that for cleaning latrines. Have you or any other bashers on this site ever attained the rank of Four Star General?

Just to make something clear here. A lot of awards are handed out by RANK, not honor. I know plenty of men that only ware MSM's (Metorious Service Medal) who more than deserved Bronze Star's. But, because they were under the rank of Sgt and were Infanryman the feat's that they accomplished were "implied" in thier job. Yet, I watched staff officer's be pinned with Bronze Star after Star for sitting in the rear with the gear running logistics. Also, just because a soldier is awarded a Bronze Star does not mean it was earned in Valor. There is a "V" that is attached to the ribbon and award statement if it was earned under direct fire or combat op's. The same for the DSM. That is typically given to high ranking staff officer's and NCO's. The same as a ARCOM would be for lower ranking NCO's and enlisted.

I am in no way attacking his merit or service. You dont get to ware star's by being 2nd in anything. I am just clearing the air on a few misconceptions on those awards.

dnf777
06-25-2010, 11:26 AM
I am in no way attacking his merit or service. You dont get to ware star's by being 2nd in anything. I am just clearing the air on a few misconceptions on those awards.

I would say that myself, but I'm glad you did! :D

Roger Perry
06-25-2010, 12:31 PM
Nancy, don't you know?? That's economic justice. Like Barney Fwanks idea of what the housing market should be... everyone should own a home whether they can afford it or not.

Eight years after arriving in Washington vowing to spread the dream of home ownership, Bush is leaving office, as he himself said recently, "faced with the prospect of a global meltdown" with roots in the housing sector he so ardently championed.
There are plenty of culprits, like lenders who peddled easy credit, consumers who took on mortgages they could not afford and Wall Street chieftains who loaded up on mortgage-backed securities without regard to the risk.
But the story of how the United States got here is partly one of Bush's own making, according to a review of his tenure that included interviews with dozens of current and former administration officials.
From his earliest days in office, Bush paired his belief that Americans do best when they own their own homes with his conviction that markets do best when left alone. Bush pushed hard to expand home ownership, especially among minority groups, an initiative that dovetailed with both his ambition to expand Republican appeal and the business interests of some of his biggest donors. But his housing policies and hands-off approach to regulation encouraged lax lending standards.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/business/worldbusiness/21iht-admin.4.18853088.html?_r=1

So Bush had no role in the housing downfall? I guess it was all Barney Frank.

Buzz
06-25-2010, 01:02 PM
From his earliest days in office, Bush paired his belief that Americans do best when they own their own homes with his conviction that markets do best when left alone. Bush pushed hard to expand home ownership, especially among minority groups, an initiative that dovetailed with both his ambition to expand Republican appeal and the business interests of some of his biggest donors. But his housing policies and hands-off approach to regulation encouraged lax lending standards.




How quickly we forget about Bush's ownership society...

Gerry Clinchy
06-27-2010, 10:08 AM
An Afghan giving an opinion of Gen. McChrystal.

I'm a little surprised to see this in the NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/opinion/27sadat.html?th&emc=th