PDA

View Full Version : Well, as long as the Muslims feel good about themselves and all...



Hew
07-06-2010, 05:49 AM
Hazard a guess as to which federal agency Obama gave a priority task to make Muslim nations feel good about themselves. State Dept? Pentagon? Our UN delegation? No. No. And no. Really, when you get right down to it, what more important things could the NASA scientists be doing than improving the self-esteem of the Muslim world?:



"When I became the NASA administrator -- or before I became the NASA administrator -- he (Obama) charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering," Bolden said in the interview.

Awesome. F that rocket crap and exploring space bullshat! What NASA should really be doing is giving props to the muslim world for their scientific contributions to female genitalia mutilation. The little Muhammeds and Ackbars of the world deserve to feel proud, too!

Franco
07-06-2010, 06:52 AM
Does anyone real expect anything different from Obama?

The proud Islamic State of Iran is getting ready to stone to death a woman. They were able to use the PC technique of 99 lashes to obtain the confession.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif
http://edition.cnn.com/video/world/2010/07/05/jamjoom.iran.death.by.stoning.cnn.576x324.jpg


Video: Mother to be stoned to death




Ashtiani, 42, will be buried up to her chest, according to an Amnesty International (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/Amnesty_International) report citing the Iranian penal code. The stones that will be hurled at her will be large enough to cause pain but not so large as to kill her immediately.
Ashtiani, who is from the northern city of Tabriz, was convicted of adultery in 2006.
She was forced to confess after being subjected to 99 lashes, human rights lawyer Mohammad Mostafaei said Thursday in a telephone interview from Tehran.

david gibson
07-06-2010, 08:19 AM
Stoning, beheadings, flying jets into buildings, honor killings. Big deal, don't forget, you have just as much to fear from christian fundamentalists as muslims.
You haven't lived until you've seen an 11 year old muslim child cut the head off a criminal with a 12 inch knife. At least I think he finished the job, among cheers from fellow children, I had to shut it down after the first cut, I nearly puked.
What an amazing, loving group those muslims are.
Walt

since the early great civilizations of the nile etc, what good has ever come out of africa? what great cities have they built, and what marvelous breakthroughs in science and medicine have they accomplished?

you would think a continent with a 60% muslim population would have at least a few significant contributions. female circumcision, stoning to death, and overall suppression of women and western culture make it pretty clear......

dnf777
07-06-2010, 08:40 AM
since the early great civilizations of the nile etc, what good has ever come out of africa? what great cities have they built, and what marvelous breakthroughs in science and medicine have they accomplished?

you would think a continent with a 60% muslim population would have at least a few significant contributions. female circumcision, stoning to death, and overall suppression of women and western culture make it pretty clear......

I gather you're referrign to sub-Saharan Africa? If so, I tend to agree. But if you consider Egypt and the city of Alexandria, you have what was once the world's center of enlightenment, math and science. Ever wonder where the term "algebra" comes from?

david gibson
07-06-2010, 08:52 AM
I gather you're referrign to sub-Saharan Africa? If so, I tend to agree. But if you consider Egypt and the city of Alexandria, you have what was once the world's center of enlightenment, math and science. Ever wonder where the term "algebra" comes from?

reread the first sentence of my post before you toss in your predictably ______ replies, please.


and who founded Alexandria? Alexander the Great, greek i believe. the early influences of even this great civilization that you use in your feeble attempt to discredit my comment actually serve to prove my point. there was a heavy european influence here, as well as the later assyrians, "Assyrians are a Semitic peoples indigenous to Mesopotamia. They are Mediterranean Caucasoids, and are ethnically distinct from Arabs and Jews. ".

"Alexandria remained Egypt's capital for nearly a thousand years, until the Muslim conquest of Egypt in AD 641 when a new capital was founded at Fustat"

i am not a big history buff and am not going to debate it, but suffice to say my original post is accurate - "since the early great civilizations of the nile etc" which encompasses these early advanced societies.

Franco
07-06-2010, 09:01 AM
Hey, lets don't forget that Pakistan has provived us with gas station attendents. From Lebannon and Palestine we have our convient store/fast stop clerks and Syria has provided us with Greek Restaurant operators.

david gibson
07-06-2010, 09:09 AM
Hey, lets don't forget that Pakistan has provived us with gas station attendents. From Lebannon and Palestine we have our convient store/fast stop clerks and Syria has provided us with Greek Restaurant operators.

you are right - and they are gracing us with their mosque architecture as well, from Norman rockwell-ish communities to ground zero...

Franco
07-06-2010, 09:16 AM
The mosque to be built next to Ground Zero is nothing more than an insult, flaunting thier victory in our face.

Obama to meet with Israeli Prime Minster today. I hope Netenyahoo gives him a piece of his mind, a real tongue lashing in responce to Obama's wreckless Foreign Policy.

dixidawg
07-06-2010, 09:17 AM
Hey, how else is Al Quaida going to learn how to make those really really BIG rockets?

M&K's Retrievers
07-06-2010, 09:46 AM
Hey, lets don't forget that Pakistan has provived us with gas station attendents. From Lebannon and Palestine we have our convient store/fast stop clerks and Syria has provided us with Greek Restaurant operators.

Don't forget motel operators from India.

badbullgator
07-06-2010, 10:10 AM
Don't forget motel operators from India.


Most Indians are NOT Muslim.......

just sayin

dnf777
07-06-2010, 10:11 AM
reread the first sentence of my post before you toss in your predictably ______ replies, please.


and who founded Alexandria? Alexander the Great, greek i believe. the early influences of even this great civilization that you use in your feeble attempt to discredit my comment actually serve to prove my point. there was a heavy european influence here, as well as the later assyrians, "Assyrians are a Semitic peoples indigenous to Mesopotamia. They are Mediterranean Caucasoids, and are ethnically distinct from Arabs and Jews. ".

"Alexandria remained Egypt's capital for nearly a thousand years, until the Muslim conquest of Egypt in AD 641 when a new capital was founded at Fustat"

i am not a big history buff and am not going to debate it, but suffice to say my original post is accurate - "since the early great civilizations of the nile etc" which encompasses these early advanced societies.

And if you'll read MY post, I said I tend to agree with you on the sub-Saharan Africa. You must have been a gifted student in school, repleat with pocket protectors and a confrontational answer to everything! Al-Jabr came along after that, and yes, it was in cahoots with a Greek that they developed algebraic equations. Mustn've been any sheep around that area, with all that time on their hands.

It was not intent to "discredit" anything you said. I have better ways to spend all day. ;-) I just wanted to point out, that for as effed-up as modern africa is, they indeed once had a wonderful civilization. As did Persia. But leave it up to organized religion to completely take over a society and ruin it!

BonMallari
07-06-2010, 10:18 AM
since the early great civilizations of the nile etc, what good has ever come out of africa?

Diamonds....and diamonds are a girl's best friend..and I have a certain fondness for females....well you asked :rolleyes:

david gibson
07-06-2010, 10:22 AM
And if you'll read MY post, I said I tend to agree with you on the sub-Saharan Africa. You must have been a gifted student in school, repleat with pocket protectors and a confrontational answer to everything! Al-Jabr came along after that, and yes, it was in cahoots with a Greek that they developed algebraic equations. Mustn've been any sheep around that area, with all that time on their hands.

It was not intent to "discredit" anything you said. I have better ways to spend all day. ;-) I just wanted to point out, that for as effed-up as modern africa is, they indeed once had a wonderful civilization. As did Persia. But leave it up to organized religion to completely take over a society and ruin it!

oh i see - you pointed out what i already pointed out, so it could look like it was your thought.

this is such a brilliant thought: "I gather you're referrign to sub-Saharan Africa?"

wow, did you get out google earth to find that the nile societies were north of the sahara, so i must therefore be referring to areas below the sahara? wow, such deep content you add to discussions. no one would have known what i meant if you hadn't chimed in.

my apologies. my post would have been worthless without your input.

M&K's Retrievers
07-06-2010, 10:23 AM
Most Indians are NOT Muslim.......

just sayin

I thought we were picking on everybody.

badbullgator
07-06-2010, 10:26 AM
I thought we were picking on everybody.


Oh I thought it was just muslims

Franco
07-06-2010, 10:51 AM
I thought we were picking on everybody.



Not sure about your hometown but, our hopitals are loaded with Indian/Hindu doctors.

When was the last time you've heard of a Hindu trying to blowup a bunch of innocent people?;-)

Julie R.
07-06-2010, 10:51 AM
Well, speaking of sub-Saharan Africa.... Maybe our President could learn a few tips from the Uganda Space Program ;-)



http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/images/icons/icon10.png The Ugandan Space Program




http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_kHK4gpOKyDU/RzeGT7G4_AI/AAAAAAAAAZw/7_SQfY5tsEA/s400/monkey_astronaut.jpg

ENTEBBE, Uganda (AFP) Africans must travel to the moon to investigate what developed nations have been doing in outer space, Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni said Saturday.

"The Americans have gone to the moon. And the Russians. The Chinese and Indians will go there soon. Africans are the only ones who are stuck here," Museveni said, addressing a meeting of the Uganda Law Society in Entebbe.

"We must also go there and say: 'What are you people doing up here?'."

Museveni urged the assembly of Uganda's top lawyers to support East African integration, arguing that one of the region's goals should be to develop a space programme.

"Uganda alone cannot go to the moon. We are too small. But East Africa united can. That is what East African integration is all about," he said. "Then we can say to the Americans: 'What are you doing here all alone?'."

Museveni has vocally campaigned for a common East African economic and political zone.

Negotiations to establish a tariff free trade zone including Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, Burundi and Rwanda have been ongoing for months.

Museveni on Saturday also called for enhanced political integration among the East African nations, suggesting the region would be strengthened by becoming one country.
__________________

Link: AFP: Africans must travel to the moon: Uganda president (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g_yA4ttGofsR-NYTy4SRF5uXQxtw)

M&K's Retrievers
07-06-2010, 11:28 AM
Not sure about your hometown but, our hopitals are loaded with Indian/Hindu doctors.

When was the last time you've heard of a Hindu trying to blowup a bunch of innocent people?;-)

Not too many have found us here in BFE but very prominent in Dallas. From what I hear, they are quality docs.

badbullgator
07-06-2010, 11:34 AM
Not too many have found us here in BFE but very prominent in Dallas. From what I hear, they are quality docs.


I would not go that far. You will get the chance to find out when obongos health care kicks in and this is the only kind of doctor you are going to find along with those from other crap hole conutries that will still be doctors here because even obongos health care rates will be more than they make in those crap holes....

BTW- I work with and am friends with MANY Indians.......they don't like you. They do to your face, but the majority of them don't really like non-Indians....the same is true with many races I am sure

ducknwork
07-06-2010, 11:42 AM
But leave it up to organized religion to completely take over a society and ruin it!

Since we are talking about Africa, I'd like to insert something else that is more correct in place of 'organized religion', but I'll restrain myself.;-)

dnf777
07-06-2010, 11:54 AM
oh i see - you pointed out what i already pointed out, so it could look like it was your thought.

this is such a brilliant thought: "I gather you're referrign to sub-Saharan Africa?"

wow, did you get out google earth to find that the nile societies were north of the sahara, so i must therefore be referring to areas below the sahara? wow, such deep content you add to discussions. no one would have known what i meant if you hadn't chimed in.

my apologies. my post would have been worthless without your input.


Take a freakin' pill.......take two!
Get you lithium levels checked while you're at it.

gman0046
07-06-2010, 11:58 AM
Let us not forget that Obongo is a Kenyan. Don't know about you but I'd rather our President didn't wear a loin cloth. Although Obongo professes to be a Christian, neither he or his family have attended a Christian Church the entire time he's been President. Can you spell Muslim?????

david gibson
07-06-2010, 11:58 AM
Take a freakin' pill.......take two!
Get you lithium levels checked while you're at it.

even more deep content. how do you manage?

dnf777
07-06-2010, 12:09 PM
even more deep content. how do you manage?

Well, its my way of diffusing your venom, and constant looking for a fight. I basically agreed with you, and you turn it into a scrap!? I usually enjoy your posts, but the good ones are usually sandwiched in between personal attacks and crap like your last posts. Rather than ignore you, I play your game. Only one person has earned "ignore" status, and they've been silent lately anyway.

gman0046
07-06-2010, 12:16 PM
I'd much rather read the intelligent posts of David Gibson then the know it all, done that BS posted by dnf777. Isn't there anything dnf777 hasn't done? After a while no one believes his BS anyway.

david gibson
07-06-2010, 12:41 PM
Well, its my way of diffusing your venom, and constant looking for a fight. I basically agreed with you, and you turn it into a scrap!? I usually enjoy your posts, but the good ones are usually sandwiched in between personal attacks and crap like your last posts. Rather than ignore you, I play your game. Only one person has earned "ignore" status, and they've been silent lately anyway.

i am so sorry, my apologies, i keep forgetting how fair, nice, and totally accommodating you are to those with opposing political viewpoints :rolleyes:

your game is old, you find ways to agree with one little point then start waving your flag of innocence claiming to be trying to show all that fairness inside you. give it a rest. just like obama claiming he is bi-partisan but those dang republicans wont see it his way.

scott furbeck
07-06-2010, 01:28 PM
Let us not forget that Obongo is a Kenyan. Don't know about you but I'd rather our President didn't wear a loin cloth. Although Obongo professes to be a Christian, neither he or his family have attended a Christian Church the entire time he's been President. Can you spell Muslim?????

Half the United States hasn't been to church in over a year and many of the same folks proclaim the US to be a Christian Nation. I don't see Obama's not going to church that much different the half the people in my neighborhood.

gman0046
07-06-2010, 01:46 PM
Real intelligent post furback. Half the U.S. is not the president. Do you forget about Rev. Wrights temple of hate Obongo attended for 20 years but hasn't been to a Christian church in almost two years. He did grow up in Indonesia while attending Muslim schools. Does anyone really believe he's a Christian? Can you spell Muslim?????

dnf777
07-06-2010, 01:49 PM
I'd much rather read the intelligent posts of David Gibson then the know it all, done that BS posted by dnf777. Isn't there anything dnf777 hasn't done? After a while no one believes his BS anyway.

Nice. When you little attacks on "yankee land" are shown to be total concoctions of your biased mind, and essentially blown out of the water with FACTS, you conveniently change tactics back to the old attack mode. Well, at least you were exposed for what you are!

Have a nice day!

david gibson
07-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Nice. When you little attacks on "yankee land" are shown to be total concoctions of your biased mind, and essentially blown out of the water with FACTS, you conveniently change tactics back to the old attack mode. Well, at least you were exposed for what you are!

Have a nice day!

i thought you were "outta here?"

scott furbeck
07-06-2010, 02:08 PM
Real intelligent post furback. Half the U.S. is not the president. Do you forget about Rev. Wrights temple of hate Obongo attended for 20 years but hasn't been to a Christian church in almost two years. He did grow up in Indonesia while attending Muslim schools. Does anyone really believe he's a Christian? Can you spell Muslim?????

I did not know that going to a specific church was a requirement for the Presidency of the United States. Oh wait, you must have gotten us confused with the country we declared our independance from !

My point is that many people claim to be Christian (over half the population) but never attend church. Is Mr. Obama any different than them ? My guess is that Mr Obama is not religious at all and enjoys the power and prestige of his job much more than any church. His agenda is liberal and secular if anything. If he was a Muslim, wouldn't he would be much more conservative.

Mr Obama and Rev. Wright.... along with you and I will have to answer for our actions. I hope all is right with you and your maker.

troy schwab
07-06-2010, 02:39 PM
I did not know that going to a specific church was a requirement for the Presidency of the United States. Oh wait, you must have gotten us confused with the country we declared our independance from !

My point is that many people claim to be Christian (over half the population) but never attend church. Is Mr. Obama any different than them ? My guess is that Mr Obama is not religious at all and enjoys the power and prestige of his job much more than any church. His agenda is liberal and secular if anything. If he was a Muslim, wouldn't he would be much more conservative.

Mr Obama and Rev. Wright.... along with you and I will have to answer for our actions. I hope all is right with you and your maker.

Dude, seriously?????? You should read his book........ I am sure you would rethink your opinion. You need to research somebody before you go standing up for them.......

dnf777
07-06-2010, 02:49 PM
i thought you were "outta here?"

Nope. That was the other thread. I'm sticking around this one to ensure someone stands up for Truth, Justice, and the American Way!

It just gets frustrating when people are given facts, right in their face, and they choose to ignore them and then divert to childish insults and attacks. Its not uncommon here, though. I mean, is it in dispute that I lived in Texas and then Pennsylvania? Is the fact that Pa has a CWP in question? I don't know what that guy needs to see that he's wrong in this particular case. I pointed out to him that the Second Amendment is one of those "yankee laws" he referred to as not wanting down there?? Truly moronic statement if you ask me, but rather than insult (although I just did) I answered him with facts he chose to ignore. May work in his world, but not the real world! I'm still wondering what childhood event occurred to him that makes him refer to "yankee land" in a discussion of gun rights?? Maybe he accidently sat on something? :shock:

scott furbeck
07-06-2010, 04:12 PM
I'm not standing up for Obama at all ! I don't like him one bit. I think he's an opportunist that would say anything to get his agenda through. His book or anything else he says isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Thus he's an opportunist... Muslim, Christian, or Agnostic. Nothing more, nothing less.

gman0046
07-06-2010, 04:20 PM
Hey, dnf is back. I thought Mr. Know It All was Outta here. Unfortunately we still have to deal with his Obongo worship.

BonMallari
07-06-2010, 04:31 PM
Nope. That was the other thread. I'm sticking around this one to ensure someone stands up for Truth, Justice, and the American Way!

It just gets frustrating when people are given facts, right in their face, and they choose to ignore them and then divert to childish insults and attacks. Its not uncommon here, though. I mean, is it in dispute that I lived in Texas and then Pennsylvania? Is the fact that Pa has a CWP in question? I don't know what that guy needs to see that he's wrong in this particular case. I pointed out to him that the Second Amendment is one of those "yankee laws" he referred to as not wanting down there?? Truly moronic statement if you ask me, but rather than insult (although I just did) I answered him with facts he chose to ignore. May work in his world, but not the real world! I'm still wondering what childhood event occurred to him that makes him refer to "yankee land" in a discussion of gun rights?? Maybe he accidently sat on something? :shock:

Please tell me that you won't be appearing in a blue and red spandex suit with a cape....:p:p

dnf777
07-06-2010, 05:10 PM
Please tell me that you won't be appearing in a blue and red spandex suit with a cape....:p:p

No, I'm afraid I outgrew the biggest size they make. :(

dnf777
07-06-2010, 05:20 PM
Hey, dnf is back. I thought Mr. Know It All was Outta here. Unfortunately we still have to deal with his Obongo worship.

I used to take offense to being called a know it all. But after dealing with such narrow-minded, shallow people as yourself from time to time, I understand why you consider the average person a know it all. I just have to remember the perspective you're coming from, and not expect much more.

Anyway, I hope you now realize that us "yankees" are Americans, and hold our Second Amendment rights sacred, just as you do. No need for divisiveness based on a war 160 years ago. Get over it.

caryalsobrook
07-06-2010, 05:32 PM
Nice. When you little attacks on "yankee land" are shown to be total concoctions of your biased mind, and essentially blown out of the water with FACTS, you conveniently change tactics back to the old attack mode. Well, at least you were exposed for what you are!

Have a nice day!

I saw your post about your reimbersement percentages and your collections. I am going fishing tonight but would enjoy a little discussion with you aboutthe healthcare system and the so called reform just passed. Care to start a thread for a discussion between the two of us about something we both probably know more that the average person knows (not to imply we are smarter than someone else, just more knowledgeable in a particular area)?

If so start one and I will reply tomorrow and we can start with your post abot your office reimbersement:)

BonMallari
07-06-2010, 05:45 PM
I saw your post about your reimbersement percentages and your collections. I am going fishing tonight but would enjoy a little discussion with you aboutthe healthcare system and the so called reform just passed. Care to start a thread for a discussion between the two of us about something we both probably know more that the average person knows (not to imply we are smarter than someone else, just more knowledgeable in a particular area)?

If so start one and I will reply tomorrow and we can start with your post abot your office reimbersement:)

will you post pictures of what you catch...its got to be more entertaining than hashing out politics day after day

caryalsobrook
07-06-2010, 06:07 PM
Don't expect much tonight. Nobody catching any much but lake will be peaceful. My fishing partner and I are such great friends that no matter how many we catch or don't catch, the trip will be enjoyable.:) Wish us luck.

dnf777
07-06-2010, 06:53 PM
I saw your post about your reimbersement percentages and your collections. I am going fishing tonight but would enjoy a little discussion with you aboutthe healthcare system and the so called reform just passed. Care to start a thread for a discussion between the two of us about something we both probably know more that the average person knows (not to imply we are smarter than someone else, just more knowledgeable in a particular area)?

If so start one and I will reply tomorrow and we can start with your post abot your office reimbersement:)

PM sent.....

gman0046
07-06-2010, 08:53 PM
Well dnf, you've been called out. Lets see your response. Or don't you have the cohones?

dnf777
07-06-2010, 09:44 PM
Well dnf, you've been called out. Lets see your response. Or don't you have the cohones?

You need to stop drinking and typing. Go pick on Hew some more for defending Obama....or have you figured out what sucker bait tastes like yet?

Not everyone is looking for a scrap here. I took that as an invitation to discuss something, and did so by PM. Believe it or not, people can discuss issues in a civil tone, even if they disagree. Some of the people I disagree with the strongest here on some issues, also happen to be the people I enjoy jousting with the most, but we respect each other, and don't resort to personal insults.

david gibson
07-06-2010, 10:24 PM
You need to stop drinking and typing. Go pick on Hew some more for defending Obama....or have you figured out what sucker bait tastes like yet?

Not everyone is looking for a scrap here. I took that as an invitation to discuss something, and did so by PM. Believe it or not, people can discuss issues in a civil tone, even if they disagree. Some of the people I disagree with the strongest here on some issues, also happen to be the people I enjoy jousting with the most, but we respect each other, and don't resort to personal insults.

your little Winkie dippity sure doesnt play this way.... ;-)

JDogger
07-06-2010, 10:36 PM
You need to stop drinking and typing. Go pick on Hew some more for defending Obama....or have you figured out what sucker bait tastes like yet?

Not everyone is looking for a scrap here. I took that as an invitation to discuss something, and did so by PM. Believe it or not, people can discuss issues in a civil tone, even if they disagree. Some of the people I disagree with the strongest here on some issues, also happen to be the people I enjoy jousting with the most, but we respect each other, and don't resort to personal insults.

Thanks for quoting Gman, Dave. Everybody here lately has so many people on their "ignore list", that the exchanges are becoming fragmented and meaningless...
Oh wait...they always were...:rolleyes:

Oh, well. JD

road kill
07-07-2010, 07:03 AM
Thanks for quoting Gman, Dave. Everybody here lately has so many people on their "ignore list", that the exchanges are becoming fragmented and meaningless...
Oh wait...they always were...:rolleyes:

Oh, well. JD

Well, yours always are!

Maybe you should take a nap, all the yawning and such.

You are sooooo clever.



rk:D

caryalsobrook
07-07-2010, 07:43 AM
We enjoyed the fishing BonMallari. I caught 4 non keepers. My partner caught only one (he is just learning to bass fish). But it was the last fish of the night and it was a keeper and of course big fish of the night for us:)

dnf777, I read your PM carefully. I offered to discuss our healthcare system not to villify or ridicule anyone, especially you. I only offered that we might provide the people of this forum with some insight as what the system was and what it will surely be under the new healthcare law and sone unforseen effects there might be as a result. I see the difference in our work backgrounds not as a hinderence but as an asset since our perspectives may very well be influenced by them.

I have not called names on this forum. I did say that BO had not run even so much as a lemonade stand. Intelligence is one thing and experience and knowledge are different. You will never hear me call one who is President of the US dumb or stupid. They would not get there if they were.

I will share one thing you said in your PM. You quoted or paraphrased Nancy Pelosi's statement when she said something like "We have to pass the healthcare bill to find out what is ing it". I won't argue with your quote. You said that it was probably the most rational statemant said about the bill. I agree with you that the statement was a rational one but I would submit that if for no other reason that this bill shoud have been defeated. How could anyone pass a bill that literally plays with the lives of all US citizens and aliens both legal and illegal be passed when you have don't know what the effect will be. Seriously thaugh we do know what many of the effects will be and probably agree on most of them. What we probably don't agree on is are these effects harmful or beneficial. Like you and I those who learned from the discussion would have to decide for themselves that answer.

I am sorry if you chose not to compare our ideas. May we could set a high standard of civil discussion on a subject that will affect this country in a profound way.

Best wishes to you and have a good day, a good decade and a good career and life:)

david gibson
07-07-2010, 07:56 AM
We enjoyed the fishing BonMallari. I caught 4 non keepers. My partner caught only one (he is just learning to bass fish). But it was the last fish of the night and it was a keeper and of course big fish of the night for us:)

dnf777, I read your PM carefully. I offered to discuss our healthcare system not to villify or ridicule anyone, especially you. I only offered that we might provide the people of this forum with some insight as what the system was and what it will surely be under the new healthcare law and sone unforseen effects there might be as a result. I see the difference in our work backgrounds not as a hinderence but as an asset since our perspectives may very well be influenced by them.

I have not called names on this forum. I did say that BO had not run even so much as a lemonade stand. Intelligence is one thing and experience and knowledge are different. You will never hear me call one who is President of the US dumb or stupid. They would not get there if they were.


I will share one thing you said in your PM. You quoted or paraphrased Nancy Pelosi's statement when she said something like "We have to pass the healthcare bill to find out what is ing it". I won't argue with your quote. You said that it was probably the most rational statemant said about the bill. I agree with you that the statement was a rational one but I would submit that if for no other reason that this bill shoud have been defeated. How could anyone pass a bill that literally plays with the lives of all US citizens and aliens both legal and illegal be passed when you have don't know what the effect will be. Seriously thaugh we do know what many of the effects will be and probably agree on most of them. What we probably don't agree on is are these effects harmful or beneficial. Like you and I those who learned from the discussion would have to decide for themselves that answer.

I am sorry if you chose not to compare our ideas. May we could set a high standard of civil discussion on a subject that will affect this country in a profound way.

Best wishes to you and have a good day, a good decade and a good career and life:)

my feelings exactly. as much as i despise O, i agree with this statement wholeheartedly. when i hear someone comment on how "unsmart" bush was/is i immediately file anything else nthey say in the trash can. they obviously are influenced too heavily by "comedy central"

great insightful post from a newcomer. exposes dnf for what he is in a tasteful manner.

dnf777
07-07-2010, 08:35 AM
dnf777, I read your PM carefully. I offered to discuss our healthcare system not to villify or ridicule anyone, especially you. I only offered that we might provide the people of this forum with some insight as what the system was and what it will surely be under the new healthcare law and sone unforseen effects there might be as a result. I am sorry if you chose not to compare our ideas. May we could set a high standard of civil discussion on a subject that will affect this country in a profound way.

Best wishes to you and have a good day, a good decade and a good career and life:)

Not at all! I didn't take your comments as anything but sincere and genuine. There are some who would construe your remarks as baiting a fight, and make comments to that effect, but I largely ignore them. Sorry if you were made to feel like you were ridiculing or anything like that. I certainly didn't take it that way.

I've just been conditioned here, that if you happen to disagree or not share a viewpoint, some will resort to personal attacks upon professionalism, military service, or any othe type of name calling that strokes their egos. Its easier to just avoid, rather than butt heads. That's why I went PM with you on that. I don't like Pelosi in the least, but I think she was the most honest in her assessment in that WE DON"T KNOW what will happen. Its a complex system, like those described in chaos theory, have unpredictable outcomes based on initial conditions.

If you take two tennis balls and place them one inch apart at the top of Niagra falls and let them go, they may end up one foot apart at the bottom. You may predict that will happen, but the next time you try, they end up 958 feet apart, because the system that controls them is so complex, there are not enough pencils and sliderules for the best scientist in the world to predict how the numerous variable will affect outcome.

Chaos theory has been successfully applied to many complex systems such as biology, stock market, weathe prediction, and even politics. Health care reform certainly qualifies.....so that is why I feel that Nancy Pelosi's statement, while not attractive or popular, was likely the only honest one.

Well, lets see where this goes!

zeus3925
07-07-2010, 08:44 AM
I don't like Pelosi in the least, but I think she was the most honest in her assessment in that WE DON"T KNOW what will happen. Its a complex system, like those described in chaos theory, have unpredictable outcomes based on initial conditions.

If you take two tennis balls and place them one inch apart at the top of Niagra falls and let them go, they may end up one foot apart at the bottom. You may predict that will happen, but the next time you try, they end up 958 feet apart, because the system that controls them is so complex, there are not enough pencils and sliderules for the best scientist in the world to predict how the numerous variable will affect outcome.

Chaos theory has been successfully applied to many complex systems such as biology, stock market, weathe prediction, and even politics. Health care reform certainly qualifies.....so that is why I feel that Nancy Pelosi's statement, while not attractive or popular, was likely the only honest one.

Well, lets see where this goes!

Where is Werner Heisenberg now that we need him?

caryalsobrook
07-07-2010, 09:25 AM
Ah dnf777 you have entered the discussion:) You said the healthcare system is complex and difficult? But would you not define wisdom as the ability to simplify and put in terms the human brain can grasp and understand. Do you not believe that this is a requirement for modification and change. Abraham Lincoln made one if not the most famous speeches in history in less that five minutes. What was it some 300 words or so. Some gentleman spoke for more than 2 hours and who was he. Could the poorest, the richest, the uneducated the educated not know what he expressed?
The Constitution? Did not our founding fathers argue and debate and in the end simplify in order to come up with what some believe the greatest document ever. Healthcare complex yes. An excuse for a 2500 page law no period.

gman0046
07-07-2010, 10:15 AM
dnf exposed again for what he is.

caryalsobrook
07-07-2010, 02:48 PM
dnf exposed again for what he is.

dnf777 didn't say anything false, I just wanted to carry his thoughts a little farther

Clint Watts
07-07-2010, 05:32 PM
Ah dnf777 you have entered the discussion:) You said the healthcare system is complex and difficult? But would you not define wisdom as the ability to simplify and put in terms the human brain can grasp and understand. Do you not believe that this is a requirement for modification and change. Abraham Lincoln made one if not the most famous speeches in history in less that five minutes. What was it some 300 words or so. Some gentleman spoke for more than 2 hours and who was he. Could the poorest, the richest, the uneducated the educated not know what he expressed?
The Constitution? Did not our founding fathers argue and debate and in the end simplify in order to come up with what some believe the greatest document ever. Healthcare complex yes. An excuse for a 2500 page law no period.

I will be watching this one. Thanks for the education.

dnf777
07-07-2010, 05:48 PM
Ah dnf777 you have entered the discussion:) You said the healthcare system is complex and difficult? But would you not define wisdom as the ability to simplify and put in terms the human brain can grasp and understand. Do you not believe that this is a requirement for modification and change. Abraham Lincoln made one if not the most famous speeches in history in less that five minutes. What was it some 300 words or so. Some gentleman spoke for more than 2 hours and who was he. Could the poorest, the richest, the uneducated the educated not know what he expressed?
The Constitution? Did not our founding fathers argue and debate and in the end simplify in order to come up with what some believe the greatest document ever. Healthcare complex yes. An excuse for a 2500 page law no period.

I don't disagree at all with what you say. But ask a team of lawyers to write down a method to tie your shoes, and you'll get a 2500 page document. That's life in the web we've woven. But yes, Einstein said something to the effect that things should be made as simple as possible...but not simpler. Occams razor claims that the simplest explanation is often the most correct. Not a new concept, but how long is the current medicare policy we've been operating under? Thank God I've never had to read it! Have you ever read your state's vehicular code? I bet its well over 2500 pages too.

That was Ed Everett, that told Lincoln after he finished the Gettysburg address, "I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes." Indeed, one of the greatest orations of all time.

gman--thank you for your insightful comments. They add SOOO much to the conversation!

caryalsobrook
07-07-2010, 06:03 PM
Are we on our way to a civil discussion:)? I think so. We have a sick patient, named The Healthcare System. The patient is sick. We exam and test along with history in order to come up with at least a preliminary diagnosis. How about you coming up with 2 symptoms and we can start there. Maybe starting with only 2 symtoms will simplify. You pick t
2 and we will see where we go then maybe I can pick 2. How about it?

dnf777
07-07-2010, 08:07 PM
Are we on our way to a civil discussion:)? I think so. We have a sick patient, named The Healthcare System. The patient is sick. We exam and test along with history in order to come up with at least a preliminary diagnosis. How about you coming up with 2 symptoms and we can start there. Maybe starting with only 2 symtoms will simplify. You pick t
2 and we will see where we go then maybe I can pick 2. How about it?

Interesting way to lead the conversation. Let me play along....

First, the "patient" may never come to our attention, since it has a 42 million out of 300 million chance of not being insured. That aside, once it walks in our doors, we will need to order an inordinate amount of CYA tests (expensive tests, because we demand the most expensive and best technology) so that we don't get sued for missed diagnosis.

Obviously, the biggest symptom that needs dealt with is the skyrocketing COST of healthcare in the US. For those who can afford it, and have access, it is one of the best, if not THE best, in the world. Its just too damned expensive. Physicians' pay in real dollars has decreased more than almost any profession in America, except maybe VCR repairmen. Physician pay is not the leading contributor to the runaway cost. Drugs have been protected from free-market forces by the latest medicare reform package, banning reimportation and collective purchasing by the largest user, medicare. Tort costs, both direct and INDIRECT, are difficult to estimate, but remember, every little bump on the head now mandates a 24 hour admission, and in many cases TWO CT scans of the head. Administrative and regulatory costs in both dollars and time have crippled hospitals, especially small rural ones who operate on a very narrow margin to begin with.

Brief example--our hospital was mandated to improve handwashing by the Joint Commission. (the hospital accrediting agency, not the planning group for UW's hash-bash) We spent just under $150,000 to purchase and install the inverted mousse canisters of waterless hand cleansers, that are quick and easy to use. Handwashing compliance quickly came into line. Then, the state DOH inspectors came, and had a fire safety bug up their a$$es. Alcohol based hand cleaners could not be mounted to any wall or structure according to state law. So guess what happened to $150,000 worth of hand lotion dispensers?

Let me just digress for a moment and pose this question. How is it that other countries afford public health plans? Lets not get too mired in wait times and quality...for the sake of argument let's say they're not quite as good, but adequate. Could it be its partly because they don't spend 400 billion on defense budgets.....and could that be because WE, the USA, protect the rest of the free world with our troops all over the globe? And that WE are indirectly subsidizing other countries health plans? Not to mention giving their factories a huge financial advantage over ours, by unburdening them from health plan costs? Perhaps. (ok, go ahead and bash our labor unions for that one....I don't care....same principle applies)

Not to rehash an old thread, but I still get riled when people on medical assist can't pay a $10 copay, but then I see elderly couples come in with rolled dimes and quarters to pay. I get riled when I see those same "no can pay" folks at the corner store buying a GD carton of cigarettes for $55! Yeah, its a free country. For some. I'm not free to demand payment in advance for those types, when I know damn well they have my $10 sitting in their ashtray, five times over! (not accurate...they usually flip their butts out the window anyway)

wow, that was a long rant...even for my big mouth. Sorry.

david gibson
07-07-2010, 09:04 PM
Interesting way to lead the conversation. Let me play along....


Not to rehash an old thread, but I still get riled when people on medical assist can't pay a $10 copay, but then I see elderly couples come in with rolled dimes and quarters to pay. I get riled when I see those same "no can pay" folks at the corner store buying a GD carton of cigarettes for $55! Yeah, its a free country. For some. I'm not free to demand payment in advance for those types, when I know damn well they have my $10 sitting in their ashtray, five times over! (not accurate...they usually flip their butts out the window anyway)

wow, that was a long rant...even for my big mouth. Sorry.

whats wrong with that? you dont need a measly $10 from them, they and you are just following Obamas orders and spreading the wealth around. you should be proud! just consider it another tax on the wealthy, i thought you are for that?

kinda different view from this angle, aint it???

caryalsobrook
07-07-2010, 09:13 PM
Hold on a minute! I know it feels good to get it off your chest because I have been there too. I thought we might start with 2 symptoms to keep it simple. Hope you feel beter and maybee some of the people who read this thread will have a beter understanding of what your day can be like. Not looking for sympahy just trying to geve a picture of your day to day life.

I'm going to ignore all bt two syptoms you mention but maybe we can get to them later.
Let's take tort reform. This to me is one of the hardest symptoms to deal with. You have to be in your position or the patient's position to even have a feel for it. Forget the lawyers and I have a family full of them. Can't help it but lawyers make my hair stand up and I still have my hair.
Would you agree that if you are sued that you have to be 100% correct not 99.99% correct or you are found negligent? Would you not agree that medical treatment and dental treatment for that matter is to a significant degree subjective and is an art as much as it is a science? Would you not agree that hindsight is always 20-20 and many diagnoses and as a consequence, treatment can be question after the fact? I believe is the rarest of circumstances would a doctor deliberately or casually diagnose and treat a patient, paying no attention to the standard which he or she was trained. Let's devide outcome into two categories- those which the treatment met the level of standard of care(whatever that is-ask the lawyers) but had a bad outcome and those where a patient may have been misdiagnosed and subsequent treatment may have been inadequate. In the first case should a patient be compensated and how so? Should there be lawsuits and court time and stress to patient and doctor alike? If there is to be compensation then who is to pay? I have always said that I only have the money that my patients pay me so if anybody is to pay then it is all the patients who pay. Since it is always the patient who pays I lean to some sort of system that the patient pays for his own insurance and eliminates the provider from the mix. Sort of like your car or home insurance. I know that some will say that this is unfair to the poor and some will say that it will eliminate a bonanza to those who are injured but have not paid. One thing is for sure no matter what the lawyers say, is that it increases significantly treatment done only for legal reasons and as a result increases not only the cost to the patient due to treatment that otherwise would not be done but it increases drastically stress to the doctor that can't be appreciated unless you have been there. On a personal note, I am diabetic with no history of family diabetes and no personal symptoms associated with diabetes such as obesity. I have weighed 190 for years and am 6'2" - certainly not overweight. Also as a matter of fact, Dentists used to have the highest suicide rate of any profession with police officers second. I don't know if this still holds true but it did years ago. I personally knew 3 dentists who commited suicide.

I guess we can start with just one symptom and one of the hardest to deal with. What do you think. Does anybody else have an opinion? Lets try to limit the redicule and have a civil discussion. We can deal with some of your other issues latter dnf777 but let's deal with this first.

david gibson
07-07-2010, 09:15 PM
well, this thread WAS about the nasa/muslim thing.....

caryalsobrook
07-07-2010, 09:17 PM
I will ignore any ridicule and am only interested in defining the problems and proposed solutions. I truely believe that 95% of the people of this country are basically good but as a friend of mine constantly reminds me "nothing is all good and nothing is all bad". Let's look for the good and try to tolerate the bad.

caryalsobrook
07-07-2010, 09:23 PM
well, this thread WAS about the nasa/muslim thing.....

I'm sorry dnf brought the health care thing and I couldn't resist jumping in. I'm glad to stop and start a new thread if you wish. It certainly isn't a problem to do so. Just ask and I will be glad to:)

sandyg
07-07-2010, 09:25 PM
I don't disagree at all with what you say. But ask a team of lawyers to write down a method to tie your shoes, and you'll get a 2500 page document. That's life in the web we've woven. But yes, Einstein said something to the effect that things should be made as simple as possible...but not simpler. Occams razor claims that the simplest explanation is often the most correct. Not a new concept, but how long is the current medicare policy we've been operating under? Thank God I've never had to read it! Have you ever read your state's vehicular code? I bet its well over 2500 pages too.

That was Ed Everett, that told Lincoln after he finished the Gettysburg address, "I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes." Indeed, one of the greatest orations of all time.

gman--thank you for your insightful comments. They add SOOO much to the conversation!

Cliff Clavin has spoken!!!
http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainn ameatlonglast.com/cliffclavin.html

david gibson
07-07-2010, 09:55 PM
I'm sorry dnf brought the health care thing and I couldn't resist jumping in. I'm glad to stop and start a new thread if you wish. It certainly isn't a problem to do so. Just ask and I will be glad to:)

dont really care, its already hijacked and it wasnt mine to begin with

Socks
07-08-2010, 02:55 PM
Interesting way to lead the conversation. Let me play along....

First, the "patient" may never come to our attention, since it has a 42 million out of 300 million chance of not being insured. That aside, once it walks in our doors, we will need to order an inordinate amount of CYA tests (expensive tests, because we demand the most expensive and best technology) so that we don't get sued for missed diagnosis.

Obviously, the biggest symptom that needs dealt with is the skyrocketing COST of healthcare in the US. For those who can afford it, and have access, it is one of the best, if not THE best, in the world. Its just too damned expensive. Physicians' pay in real dollars has decreased more than almost any profession in America, except maybe VCR repairmen. Physician pay is not the leading contributor to the runaway cost. Drugs have been protected from free-market forces by the latest medicare reform package, banning reimportation and collective purchasing by the largest user, medicare. Tort costs, both direct and INDIRECT, are difficult to estimate, but remember, every little bump on the head now mandates a 24 hour admission, and in many cases TWO CT scans of the head. Administrative and regulatory costs in both dollars and time have crippled hospitals, especially small rural ones who operate on a very narrow margin to begin with.

Brief example--our hospital was mandated to improve handwashing by the Joint Commission. (the hospital accrediting agency, not the planning group for UW's hash-bash) We spent just under $150,000 to purchase and install the inverted mousse canisters of waterless hand cleansers, that are quick and easy to use. Handwashing compliance quickly came into line. Then, the state DOH inspectors came, and had a fire safety bug up their a$$es. Alcohol based hand cleaners could not be mounted to any wall or structure according to state law. So guess what happened to $150,000 worth of hand lotion dispensers?

Let me just digress for a moment and pose this question. How is it that other countries afford public health plans? Lets not get too mired in wait times and quality...for the sake of argument let's say they're not quite as good, but adequate. Could it be its partly because they don't spend 400 billion on defense budgets.....and could that be because WE, the USA, protect the rest of the free world with our troops all over the globe? And that WE are indirectly subsidizing other countries health plans? Not to mention giving their factories a huge financial advantage over ours, by unburdening them from health plan costs? Perhaps. (ok, go ahead and bash our labor unions for that one....I don't care....same principle applies)

Not to rehash an old thread, but I still get riled when people on medical assist can't pay a $10 copay, but then I see elderly couples come in with rolled dimes and quarters to pay. I get riled when I see those same "no can pay" folks at the corner store buying a GD carton of cigarettes for $55! Yeah, its a free country. For some. I'm not free to demand payment in advance for those types, when I know damn well they have my $10 sitting in their ashtray, five times over! (not accurate...they usually flip their butts out the window anyway)

wow, that was a long rant...even for my big mouth. Sorry.

Now that's a interesting thought. I don't know if I agree, but it is different.