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road kill
07-12-2010, 07:04 PM
.....ooops, I mean progressives;

http://www.breitbart.tv/another-democrat-congressman-loses-temper-on-camera/



You can't make this stuff up.




rk;-)

david gibson
07-12-2010, 07:25 PM
.....ooops, I mean progressives;

http://www.breitbart.tv/another-democrat-congressman-loses-temper-on-camera/



You can't make this stuff up.




rk;-)



plug in any liberal in this forum and it all fits!!!!!!!!

"dont say i am not telling the truth!! i hit you with newspaper!"

YardleyLabs
07-12-2010, 07:54 PM
There is no indication of when this tape was made. However, the CBO "final revisions" for the consolidated bill as adopted were issued in March 2010 and estimated a net reduction in deficits of over $140 billion. The woman was interrupting, calling him a liar while lying herself, and not letting him speak. I thought his reaction was fine. If you are attending a public forum where I am speaking and you interrupt me and call me a liar, expect to get it back with interest.

road kill
07-12-2010, 07:55 PM
There is no indication of when this tape was made. However, the CBO "final revisions" for the consolidated bill as adopted were issued in March 2010 and estimated an net reduction in deficits of over $140 billion. The woman was interrupting, calling him a liar while lying herself, and not letting him speak. I thought his reaction was fine. If you are attending a public forum where I am speaking and you interrupt me and call me a liar, expect to get it back with interest.

As we used to say in the old days, "if you step to me, you had best come correct."

It's a public forum, the constituents can speak.
It is not a lecture, it's a townhall meeting.
The person felt they were being lied to, they should have been addressed, not accosted.

But I expected nothing less from you.






rk:D

subroc
07-12-2010, 08:05 PM
Here is one.

Racism...who is the racist?

Who is calling him/them on this?

No racism, empty accusations in the Duke Lacrosse case yet vilified and discredited by the main stream media (MSM). This is real racism. This is what it looks like. This is hate speech. Where is the main stream media?

Bunch of apologist cowards.

http://www.breitbart.tv/call-to-arms-new-black-panthers-rally-against-tea-party-police/

YardleyLabs
07-12-2010, 08:12 PM
As we used to say in the old days, "if you step to me, you had best come correct."

It's a public forum, the constituents can speak.
It is not a lecture, it's a townhall meeting.
The person felt they were being lied to, they should have been addressed, not accosted.

But I expected nothing less from you.






rk:D
Its a forum to allow a congressman to talk to his constituents and for them to question him. That does not include interrupting in a manner that prevents dialogue as the lady was doing. Fox fairly regularly calls liberal demonstrators in similar circumstances of engaging in Fascist tactics. If that shoe fits, it fits on both feet, left and right.Do you think he has some obligation to let her take over? Let her organize her own meeting or expect no better manners than she herself showed. During the last Presidential election, all Republican candidate presentations in my area (and there were many since we were a battleground state) allowed admission only by tickets and the tickets were distributed by the local party to prevent any opponents from entering. No one was permitted to bring their own signs. They were provided handwritten signs as they entered.

road kill
07-12-2010, 08:21 PM
Its a forum to allow a congressman to talk to his constituents and for them to question him. That does not include interrupting in a manner that prevents dialogue as the lady was doing. Fox fairly regularly calls liberal demonstrators in similar circumstances of engaging in Fascist tactics. If that shoe fits, it fits on both feet, left and right.Do you think he has some obligation to let her take over? Let her organize her own meeting or expect no better manners than she herself showed. During the last Presidential election, all Republican candidate presentations in my area (and there were many since we were a battleground state) allowed admission only by tickets and the tickets were distributed by the local party to prevent any opponents from entering. No one was permitted to bring their own signs. They were provided handwritten signs as they entered.

Anybody got any cheese??





RK:D

Franco
07-12-2010, 09:10 PM
Here is one.

Racism...who is the racist?

Who is calling him/them on this?

No racism, empty accusations in the Duke Lacrosse case yet vilified and discredited by the main stream media (MSM). This is real racism. This is what it looks like. This is hate speech. Where is the main stream media?

Bunch of apologist cowards.

http://www.breitbart.tv/call-to-arms-new-black-panthers-rally-against-tea-party-police/

Lets don't forget falsely accusing the Police Officer that was responding to a phone call. OBama assumed it was racial!

I still haven't gotton over Michelle's comment during the campaign. The 'first time" revelation. I guess she felt she was owed a free Ivy League education! This country has given her much opportunity and her ingratefulness is hard to miss. This lastest NCAAP is just more crap from her.

BrianW
07-13-2010, 09:55 AM
If the Representative is, in effect, exaggerating his case by using inaccurate figures to make his point, is that still "the truth"? The woman does not make her "tell the truth" comment until after the Rep disregards her point and talks down to her with his "Let me finish. Otherwise, if you're not willing (break in) to dialogue & learn ..." response. It appeared (imo) that he had no intention of addressing her concern until she broke in again.

My point being, if I'm at a meeting and one of the people that work for me is trying to use inaccurate numbers to try and steamroll the rest of the group & me into supporting something, and I KNOW it, I'm going to call him/her on it right there also, before he obfuscates his point(s) any further.

Also, it's apparently the comment (that I can't quite make out) from someone sitting to the screen right of the woman that criticized Rodriquez's numbers that makes him snap. His "talking points train" got derailed by an informed constituency and he couldn't handle that.

A lot of these Congresscritters have somehow gotten the impression that they're not public servants anymore, but rather our bosses. The time is way past when the reps went back to the districts to report to the people because communications were so slow and the people were largely illiterate, and got to say whatever they wanted. We've got instant access media now and updated info that can change choreographed & rehearsed "talking points" in a heartbeat. It's good to see tthe citizenry standing back up and taking their rightful place.

Blackstone
07-13-2010, 10:22 AM
plug in any liberal in this forum and it all fits!!!!!!!!

"dont say i am not telling the truth!! i hit you with newspaper!"

I don't think you can put that in quotes. He never said he would hit her with a newspaper. He did ask her not to interupt, but she continued, and he lost his cool. Personally, I wouldn't have let her upset me that way.

But, to say, "plug in any liberal in this forum and it all fits!!!!!!!," is like the pot calling the kettle black. Your verbal attacks of those that disagree with you are pretty much standard. All you need is the newspaper.

Blackstone
07-13-2010, 10:49 AM
Here is one.

Racism...who is the racist?

Who is calling him/them on this?

No racism, empty accusations in the Duke Lacrosse case yet vilified and discredited by the main stream media (MSM). This is real racism. This is what it looks like. This is hate speech. Where is the main stream media?

Bunch of apologist cowards.

http://www.breitbart.tv/call-to-arms-new-black-panthers-rally-against-tea-party-police/

Of course these are racist rants by a hate group. The New Black Panther Party is a fringe racist, hate pandering organization, much like the KKK, Arian Nation, Neo-Nazis, Skin Heads, etc. However, the main stream media doesn't report on every meeting and rally those groups have either.

The Duke Lacrosse incident was less about race than it was about the alleged rape and assault. Of course, there were those that tried to turn it into a racial incident, but I don't remember it ever really being portrayed that way. It was no different than when Susan Smith alleged a black man carjacked her and kidnapped her 2 children. There were those that tried to turn that into a racial issue, but it wasn't. Susan Smith was just making up a lie to cover-up what she had done, and she probably thought it would be more believable and throw investigators farther off her trail if she said a black man did it.

Buzz
07-13-2010, 10:55 AM
I don't think you can put that in quotes. He never said he would hit her with a newspaper. He did ask her not to interupt, but she continued, and he lost his cool. Personally, I wouldn't have let her upset me that way.


This is a clip that's maybe 30 seconds long? They are already well into the discussion where he is quoting numbers. We have no idea what happened leading up to this outburst. I would have a hard time condemning anyone, Democrat or Republican based on what I see there. Not giving someone time to talk and make their point is exactly what we see on the TV machine with the pols and pundits talking over one another. It's not debate and it's not productive. It's political theater.

pat addis
07-13-2010, 11:09 AM
Its a forum to allow a congressman to talk to his constituents and for them to question him. That does not include interrupting in a manner that prevents dialogue as the lady was doing. Fox fairly regularly calls liberal demonstrators in similar circumstances of engaging in Fascist tactics. If that shoe fits, it fits on both feet, left and right.Do you think he has some obligation to let her take over? Let her organize her own meeting or expect no better manners than she herself showed. During the last Presidential election, all Republican candidate presentations in my area (and there were many since we were a battleground state) allowed admission only by tickets and the tickets were distributed by the local party to prevent any opponents from entering. No one was permitted to bring their own signs. They were provided handwritten signs as they entered.

so one question if he is not telling the truth sould you just let hi go on? also what ever happened to that even tempered congressman who grabbed that kid trying to inteview him?if a republican did the same things that have been going on would you be so forgiving? my congressman won't even have a meeting to take any questions unless he packs the room with union members

Blackstone
07-13-2010, 12:07 PM
Lets don't forget falsely accusing the Police Officer that was responding to a phone call. OBama assumed it was racial!

I still haven't gotton over Michelle's comment during the campaign. The 'first time" revelation. I guess she felt she was owed a free Ivy League education! This country has given her much opportunity and her ingratefulness is hard to miss. This lastest NCAAP is just more crap from her.

When did Obama say the incident was racially motivated? I never heard that, and I watched the entire interview of his comments. In fact, I never heard him mention race at all. Now, he may have been thinking, “this is some racist BS,” but he never said it. He said the officer acted “stupidly” in the way it was handled, and perhaps he did. I certainly think there was a better way to handle the situation.

As far as Michelle Obama’s comment, did anyone ever ask her to clarify what she meant by that? However, let’s assume she was speaking from her perspective as a black person. You have to admit the history of things that happened to black people in this country (i.e. slavery, Jim Crow, lynching’s, murders, discrimination in housing, jobs, loans, education, etc.) are not the things that would make you proud of your country. These are the things experienced by her great grandparent’s, grandparent’s & parent’s generations, so what do you think she learned about America. Although, she had the opportunity to go to Princeton and Harvard, it doesn’t mean she didn’t experience racism herself. Her Princeton thesis talked about how, as a black person, she never fit in at Princeton. Her freshman year room mate publically admitted that her mother tried to get her moved to another room when she found out Michelle was black. Would that make you proud, knowing that type of attitude was still pervasive in America. Despite that, she persevered, and graduated near the top of her class.

Just because she rose above her circumstances, it doesn’t mean she should forget or dismiss her past. Would you tell a Jew they should forget about the Holocaust? After all, it was a long time ago, and they aren’t killing Jews in Germany now.

Franco
07-13-2010, 01:34 PM
When did Obama say the incident was racially motivated? I never heard that, and I watched the entire interview of his comments. In fact, I never heard him mention race at all. Now, he may have been thinking, ďthis is some racist BS,Ē but he never said it. He said the officer acted ďstupidlyĒ in the way it was handled, and perhaps he did. I certainly think there was a better way to handle the situation.

As far as Michelle Obamaís comment, did anyone ever ask her to clarify what she meant by that? However, letís assume she was speaking from her perspective as a black person. You have to admit the history of things that happened to black people in this country (i.e. slavery, Jim Crow, lynchingís, murders, discrimination in housing, jobs, loans, education, etc.) are not the things that would make you proud of your country. These are the things experienced by her great grandparentís, grandparentís & parentís generations, so what do you think she learned about America. Although, she had the opportunity to go to Princeton and Harvard, it doesnít mean she didnít experience racism herself. Her Princeton thesis talked about how, as a black person, she never fit in at Princeton. Her freshman year room mate publically admitted that her mother tried to get her moved to another room when she found out Michelle was black. Would that make you proud, knowing that type of attitude was still pervasive in America. Despite that, she persevered, and graduated near the top of her class.

Just because she rose above her circumstances, it doesnít mean she should forget or dismiss her past. Would you tell a Jew they should forget about the Holocaust? After all, it was a long time ago, and they arenít killing Jews in Germany now.

Michelle's comment during the campaign was "this was the first time she could be proud..."

Again, wasn'r she pround of her country for givivng her a free Ive League education?

Obama jumped to conclusion that it was stupily. In fact, it was handled very professionally. That's why he ad him over for a beer. It was the Harvard professor that acted like a jackass. Why would Obama even comment before having the facts if not to assume it was an act that was racially motivated?

Blackstone
07-13-2010, 02:26 PM
Michelle's comment during the campaign was "this was the first time she could be proud..."

Again, wasn'r she pround of her country for givivng her a free Ive League education?[QUOTE]

From all I have read, her education was paid for by support from her parents, and both scholarships and student loans (which she has repaid). So, this country did not exactly give her a free Ivy League education.

Her exact comment was, ď"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country." Now I have to retract my earlier speculative comments because I guess she has publically clarified what she meant, "What I was clearly talking about was that I'm proud in how Americans are engaging in the political process," she said. "For the first time in my lifetime, I'm seeing people rolling up their sleeves in a way that I haven't seen and really trying to figure this out -- and that's the source of pride that I was talking about." Perhaps she was putting a spin on her comments, and perhaps she wasnít.

[QUOTE=Franco;644435] Obama jumped to conclusion that it was stupily. In fact, it was handled very professionally. That's why he ad him over for a beer. It was the Harvard professor that acted like a jackass. Why would Obama even comment before having the facts if not to assume it was an act that was racially motivated?

I donít think it was handled very professionally, but thatís just my opinion. I think Gates was wrong for the way he reacted to the police, and I think the police could have backed off once they realized he was not breaking in the house. Either way, Obama chose to back his friend, Gates. In reality, Obama should not have commented publically on the matter, especially without all the facts. But, that does not mean he was making it into a racial incident. I think he realized he should not have made any statement, and he invited the cop over for a beer in an attempt to smooth over the situation.

road kill
07-13-2010, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=Franco;644435]Michelle's comment during the campaign was "this was the first time she could be proud..."

Again, wasn'r she pround of her country for givivng her a free Ive League education?[QUOTE]

From all I have read, her education was paid for by support from her parents, and both scholarships and student loans (which she has repaid). So, this country did not exactly give her a free Ivy League education.

Her exact comment was, ď"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country." Now I have to retract my earlier speculative comments because I guess she has publically clarified what she meant, "What I was clearly talking about was that I'm proud in how Americans are engaging in the political process," she said. "For the first time in my lifetime, I'm seeing people rolling up their sleeves in a way that I haven't seen and really trying to figure this out -- and that's the source of pride that I was talking about." Perhaps she was putting a spin on her comments, and perhaps she wasnít.



I donít think it was handled very professionally, but thatís just my opinion. I think Gates was wrong for the way he reacted to the police, and I think the police could have backed off once they realized he was not breaking in the house. Either way, Obama chose to back his friend, Gates. In reality, Obama should not have commented publically on the matter, especially without all the facts. But, that does not mean he was making it into a racial incident. I think he realized he should not have made any statement, and he invited the cop over for a beer in an attempt to smooth over the situation.

Blackstone, here is the rub.

There are a lot of people in the USA that have been raised a certain way.
A lot of these same people have made a concerted effort to change some of those ways.
They (we) have been taught decisions should NOT be based on race.


Soooo.....there is a perception that things are occurring now based on race.

And in human nature, perception is reality.


stan b

Blackstone
07-13-2010, 03:24 PM
Blackstone, here is the rub.

There are a lot of people in the USA that have been raised a certain way.
A lot of these same people have made a concerted effort to change some of those ways.
They (we) have been taught decisions should NOT be based on race.


Soooo.....there is a perception that things are occurring now based on race.

And in human nature, perception is reality.


stan b

Stan,

The truth is some people have changed, but there are still a lot that havenít. There are a lot of black people that automatically jump to the conclusion that everything said or done by a white person is racially motivated. And now, there are a lot of white people jumping to the same kind of conclusions about black people in general, and the Obama administration in particular. While perception may be reality for those people, it doesnít make it true.

I have experienced a lot of racism in my life, but I donít automatically assume every white person is a racist, and that the things they do are racially motivated. I try to judge each person on their own merit. I have white friends that I would trust with my life. I know black people that I would trust as far as I could throw them. Some people are good and others are bad. Thatís the nature of people, but it has nothing to do with skin color.

road kill
07-13-2010, 03:28 PM
Stan,

The truth is some people have changed, but there are still a lot that havenít. There are a lot of black people that automatically jump to the conclusion that everything said or done by a white person is racially motivated. And now, there are a lot of white people jumping to the same kind of conclusions about black people in general, and the Obama administration in particular. While perception may be reality for those people, it doesnít make it true.
I have experienced a lot of racism in my life, but I donít automatically assume every white person is a racist, and that the things they do are racially motivated. I try to judge each person on their own merit. I have white friends that I would trust with my life. I know black people that I would trust as far as I could throw them. Some people are good and others are bad. Thatís the nature of people, but it has nothing to do with skin color.

I understand that, that's what I was trying to say.
When you are elbow to elbow with someone while getting shot at, and they stand up with you, you'd be amazed how close you can get.

But I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't been there to understand.

Nice post!


stan b

Nor_Cal_Angler
07-13-2010, 07:44 PM
When did Obama say the incident was racially motivated? I never heard that, and I watched the entire interview of his comments. In fact, I never heard him mention race at all. Now, he may have been thinking, ďthis is some racist BS,Ē but he never said it. He said the officer acted ďstupidlyĒ in the way it was handled, and perhaps he did. I certainly think there was a better way to handle the situation.

As far as Michelle Obamaís comment, did anyone ever ask her to clarify what she meant by that? However, letís assume she was speaking from her perspective as a black person. You have to admit the history of things that happened to black people in this country (i.e. slavery, Jim Crow, lynchingís, murders, discrimination in housing, jobs, loans, education, etc.) are not the things that would make you proud of your country. These are the things experienced by her great grandparentís, grandparentís & parentís generations, so what do you think she learned about America. Although, she had the opportunity to go to Princeton and Harvard, it doesnít mean she didnít experience racism herself. Her Princeton thesis talked about how, as a black person, she never fit in at Princeton. Her freshman year room mate publically admitted that her mother tried to get her moved to another room when she found out Michelle was black. Would that make you proud, knowing that type of attitude was still pervasive in America. Despite that, she persevered, and graduated near the top of her class.

Just because she rose above her circumstances, it doesnít mean she should forget or dismiss her past. Would you tell a Jew they should forget about the Holocaust? After all, it was a long time ago, and they arenít killing Jews in Germany now.

I want to file official grevences with AMERICA for the way my family and race has been treated from the time they got here as well...lynches, murders, discrimination against jobs, loans and housing as well....

PROUD TO BE IRISH AMERICAN.........

NCA

YardleyLabs
07-13-2010, 07:56 PM
I want to file official grevences with AMERICA for the way my family and race has been treated from the time they got here as well...lynches, murders, discrimination against jobs, loans and housing as well....

PROUD TO BE IRISH AMERICAN.........

NCA
The Irish were also discriminated against for years, and took great pride in voting for the first Irish American President, JFK, whether they agreed with his politics or not. As the Irish became more established, they formed their own bases of power. In New York City, they controlled hiring in the Police Department and, to a lesser extent, the Fire Department, and used that power to promote their own. Even when discrimination was at its worst, however, the Irish always knew one thing -- they were better than blacks..... I suspect that was part of what attracted my alcoholic, Scotch-Irish grandfather to the KKK.:rolleyes:

Blackstone
07-13-2010, 10:50 PM
I want to file official grevences with AMERICA for the way my family and race has been treated from the time they got here as well...lynches, murders, discrimination against jobs, loans and housing as well....

PROUD TO BE IRISH AMERICAN.........

NCA

You forgot slavery and Jim Crow, and how they were kidnapped from their homes, shackled and chained in the bottom of slave ships, and forcibly brought to this country, to be sold like animals to the highest bidder, separated from their families, and often worked to death. Oh wait, that wasnít the Irish.

Nor_Cal_Angler
07-13-2010, 11:32 PM
You forgot slavery and Jim Crow, and how they were kidnapped from their homes, shackled and chained in the bottom of slave ships, and forcibly brought to this country, to be sold like animals to the highest bidder, separated from their families, and often worked to death. Oh wait, that wasnít the Irish.

No I did not, I purposely left those out...but we often were forced to bottoms of ships to ride in absolute squaler and often had no other choice but to work as not much more than slaves some like to call it "servents"

Ahhh but you missed the mark...my point was what people couldnt stand up and say look at me...

PEOPLE GET OVER IT....I for one feel not ONE OUNCE OF PITTY for the "african american" of today..and I am not old enough to feel any for someone of what you would call "senior" because I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

And lastly the greater majority were not kidnapped...they were sold out by their own.

NCA

gman0046
07-14-2010, 10:19 AM
Interesting how some people love to be a victim of something that happened 150 years ago. Maybe Slave reparations would ease their pain.

Blackstone
07-14-2010, 11:05 AM
No I did not, I purposely left those out...but we often were forced to bottoms of ships to ride in absolute squaler and often had no other choice but to work as not much more than slaves some like to call it "servents"

Ahhh but you missed the mark...my point was what people couldnt stand up and say look at me...

PEOPLE GET OVER IT....I for one feel not ONE OUNCE OF PITTY for the "african american" of today..and I am not old enough to feel any for someone of what you would call "senior" because I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

And lastly the greater majority were not kidnapped...they were sold out by their own.

NCA

Comparing the experiences of the Irish in this country to the experiences of blacks in this country is like comparing having a head cold to having cancer, then saying, ďI canít understand why that cancer patient is still in the bed. I was sick too, and I got over it.Ē

The Irish were not really forced to do anything, they came here by choice. So, traveling in the bottom of a ship was a sacrifice they chose to make in order to get here, and they certainly were in chains when they made the trip. There is a big difference between choosing to be an indentured servant for a few years (if that was the case) for the opportunity at a better life, and being forced to be a slave for life, with no chance of a better life. I donít mean to make light of what the Irish endured, but if it was so terrible, why did they keep coming? Why did they send for their families to come? Did you ever hear about any Africans asking to come here to be slaves, or sending for their families to come join them?

People only get over things when they are allowed to. I can tell you personally, that even today, black people are still not always allowed to. Once the Irish lost their accent, attended American schools, and tried to assimilate, they were able to because they were no longer easily identifiable. It took 1, maybe 2 generations for them to enter mainstream America. On the other hand, when your skin is dark, you donít blend in, and the target remains on your back. Although, things are 100 times better than when I was a kid, vestiges of institutional racism still remain that impact everyday life.

While I find your lack of compassion and empathy for someone elseís plight less than admirable, it is certainly your right to feel that way. I, for one, would not be looking for your ďpityĒ. And, despite what you seem to think, no reasonable person is trying to hold you accountable for the sins of the past. All that most people are looking for, regardless of color, is to be treated fairly, like everyone else.

You obviously donít know how the slave trade system worked. There were white, African & Arab slavers. Africans were paid to kidnap other Africans from other villages. They did not sell people from their own tribes and villages. Those people were in turn sold as slaves. Just because they were same color as those they kidnapped, doesnít mean it wasnít kidnapping.

Blackstone
07-14-2010, 11:32 AM
Interesting how some people love to be a victim of something that happened 150 years ago. Maybe Slave reparations would ease their pain.

So, you think when slavery was abolished in 1863, all the slaves were released, and they went merrily on their way and were accepted freely into American society?

Slavery may have ended 150 years ago, but I remember Jim Crow segregation in my lifetime, 100 years later. I remember white only restaurants, water fountains & hotels. I remember white only sections in movie theaters. I remember police dogs and fire hoses. I remember schools and universities that did allow blacks to attend. I remember college football teams that didnít allow blacks to play, and really didnít want to play a team that had black players. I remember pro teams that didnít allow blacks to play certain positions or be head coaches. I remember blacks being excluded from membership at Augusta until Tiger Woods played in the Masters there in 1990. All of this in my life time, and Iím not 150 years old. So, is that ďloving to be a victim of something that happened 150 years ago?Ē

Nor_Cal_Angler
07-14-2010, 11:44 AM
Comparing the experiences of the Irish in this country to the experiences of blacks in this country is like comparing having a head cold to having cancer, then saying, ďI canít understand why that cancer patient is still in the bed. I was sick too, and I got over it.Ē

The Irish were not really forced to do anything, they came here by choice. So, traveling in the bottom of a ship was a sacrifice they chose to make in order to get here, and they certainly were in chains when they made the trip. There is a big difference between choosing to be an indentured servant for a few years (if that was the case) for the opportunity at a better life, and being forced to be a slave for life, with no chance of a better life. I donít mean to make light of what the Irish endured, but if it was so terrible, why did they keep coming? Why did they send for their families to come? Did you ever hear about any Africans asking to come here to be slaves, or sending for their families to come join them?

People only get over things when they are allowed to. I can tell you personally, that even today, black people are still not always allowed to. Once the Irish lost their accent, attended American schools, and tried to assimilate, they were able to because they were no longer easily identifiable. It took 1, maybe 2 generations for them to enter mainstream America. On the other hand, when your skin is dark, you donít blend in, and the target remains on your back. Although, things are 100 times better than when I was a kid, vestiges of institutional racism still remain that impact everyday life.

While I find your lack of compassion and empathy for someone elseís plight less than admirable, it is certainly your right to feel that way. I, for one, would not be looking for your ďpityĒ. And, despite what you seem to think, no reasonable person is trying to hold you accountable for the sins of the past. All that most people are looking for, regardless of color, is to be treated fairly, like everyone else.

You obviously donít know how the slave trade system worked. There were white, African & Arab slavers. Africans were paid to kidnap other Africans from other villages. They did not sell people from their own tribes and villages. Those people were in turn sold as slaves. Just because they were same color as those they kidnapped, doesnít mean it wasnít kidnapping.


1st...(Red) I want to clarify that I hold myself no better than anyone else regardless of my written words..I only said that to highlight the plight that anyone can show their people may have had. I larger point or issue is "who feels sorry for MY struggles growning up white in the 21st century and being made to feel sorry and made to sacrifice things on behalf of something that happened generations ago. No one crys foul for me, no one says enough is enough when I get denied a job, denied a loan, denied housing, denied an oppertunity at a higher edu....

and while I do find your comments very admirable with regards to "not holding me responsible or you not personally expecting pitty" you can not turn a blind eye to america expecting that out of "white america"

I DO pay the price everyday for the "sins of my fathers"

my point is ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.....I just dont like the idea that "white america" of the 21st century should feel or made to feel ashamed for something that is to the larger degree a problem of the past.

2nd..(bold) your statements seem to contradict and prove my point..I do have a background knowledge or crude understanding of the slave trade...THANKFULLY I DONT HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE...but to say Africans were paid to Kidnap Africans....seems to suggest that they KNEW what they were doing and proves my point...they SOLD their own people OUT....think about it.

Blackstone....I am sure you know this is not personal between you and I, It is or was my intention to keep the discussion with the idea..."both sides of the coin"

NCA

ducknwork
07-14-2010, 12:27 PM
People only get over things when they are allowed to. I can tell you personally, that even today, black people are still not always allowed to. Once the Irish lost their accent, attended American schools, and tried to assimilate, they were able to because they were no longer easily identifiable. It took 1, maybe 2 generations for them to enter mainstream America. On the other hand, when your skin is dark, you donít blend in, and the target remains on your back. Although, things are 100 times better than when I was a kid, vestiges of institutional racism still remain that impact everyday life.


For starters, I mean no disrespect.

That being said, I think that blacks (not all, of course) are the main reasons that the black people are not 'allowed to get over things'. It's tough to break a stereotype when you don't even try. I don't mean to imply that all blacks don't try to remove themselves from the stereotypical rappin' gangbangin' ho chasin' street thuggin' black man. That is obviously not true. But many, I would almost say most, young black males (and females to some extent) glorify the life of the rapper, the drug dealer, the gang leader, the promiscuous sports star, etc...That is what TOO MANY of them aspire to be. When you lead that kind of lifestyle, you are only hurting your own people. There are too many black families that are caught in the trap of bad parents, broken families, no parents, no money, no 'real' dreams, no knowledge of how to attain a better life legally, no DESIRE to obtain a better life legally, etc. I understand that it is incredibly difficult to make something respectable of yourself when that is what surrounds you for your entire life. But who's fault is it? Is it still whitey's fault for the sins of our fathers? How long can our ancestors actions be held against us? At what point does the ball get placed in the court of the black community? When will 'poor' black America stand up and decide that the best way to make themselves equal to 'whitey' is not through govt entitlements and help from the racist NAACP, but through hard work, morals, ethics, and personal responsibility?

Again, no disrespect meant, Blackstone. If I have said something you find offensive, let me know via PM.

Blackstone
07-14-2010, 12:55 PM
1st...(Red) I want to clarify that I hold myself no better than anyone else regardless of my written words..I only said that to highlight the plight that anyone can show their people may have had. I larger point or issue is "who feels sorry for MY struggles growning up white in the 21st century and being made to feel sorry and made to sacrifice things on behalf of something that happened generations ago. No one crys foul for me, no one says enough is enough when I get denied a job, denied a loan, denied housing, denied an oppertunity at a higher edu....

and while I do find your comments very admirable with regards to "not holding me responsible or you not personally expecting pitty" you can not turn a blind eye to america expecting that out of "white america"

I DO pay the price everyday for the "sins of my fathers"

my point is ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.....I just dont like the idea that "white america" of the 21st century should feel or made to feel ashamed for something that is to the larger degree a problem of the past.

2nd..(bold) your statements seem to contradict and prove my point..I do have a background knowledge or crude understanding of the slave trade...THANKFULLY I DONT HAVE FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE...but to say Africans were paid to Kidnap Africans....seems to suggest that they KNEW what they were doing and proves my point...they SOLD their own people OUT....think about it.

Blackstone....I am sure you know this is not personal between you and I, It is or was my intention to keep the discussion with the idea..."both sides of the coin"

NCA

Let me preface my response by saying I do not mind discussing issues of race and race relations. I firmly believe that unless you are willing to understand the issue from each otherís point of view, race will always be a problem. We may not always agree, but often seeing the issue from a different perspective will alter your perspective as well.

First, there is no need for you to feel sorry or at fault for anything that was done by someone else. Itís not your responsibility. All that you are responsible for is how you treat and interact with people. If someone is trying to tell you different, I would just ignore them, and keep going. But, donít think all black people feel you owe them something or you are at fault for the actions of your forefathers. You cannot judge the group by the actions of a few. If I took it to heart every time a white person had made a derogatory remark, or did something meanspirited to me based on race, I would be consumed with hate and anger. However, I realize there are good white people and bad ones, and I try to judge each one based on their own actions, not as a group. That does not mean that I think we live in some post-racial utopian. I realize there is still a lot of hate out there, and it does rear its ugly head from time to time.

Second, I am not sure what you feel you have had to sacrifice because of what was done in the past, but if you have been denied jobs, loans, housing, etc. based on the fact that you are white, it was wrong and illegal. I would be interested in hear some examples.

You obviously see African people as one group. Africa is a huge continent. There are many ethnic and tribal groups within it. They are not related, and they did not see themselves as having any connection. So to say they sold out their own, is like saying the Germans killed their own when they bombed England and France during WWII. They were all white, and they were all from Europe. The English persecuted the Irish in Europe. Where they persecuting their own? In addition, the practice of slavery was fairly common in some African societies, but not with the same brutality of the system in America. I would like to think if they knew the horrors they were condemning these captives to, they would not have sold them into slavery.

Nor_Cal_Angler
07-14-2010, 01:00 PM
For starters, I mean no disrespect.

That being said, I think that blacks (not all, of course) are the main reasons that the black people are not 'allowed to get over things'. It's tough to break a stereotype when you don't even try. I don't mean to imply that all blacks don't try to remove themselves from the stereotypical rappin' gangbangin' ho chasin' street thuggin' black man. That is obviously not true. But many, I would almost say most, young black males (and females to some extent) glorify the life of the rapper, the drug dealer, the gang leader, the promiscuous sports star, etc...That is what TOO MANY of them aspire to be. When you lead that kind of lifestyle, you are only hurting your own people. There are too many black families that are caught in the trap of bad parents, broken families, no parents, no money, no 'real' dreams, no knowledge of how to attain a better life legally, no DESIRE to obtain a better life legally, etc. I understand that it is incredibly difficult to make something respectable of yourself when that is what surrounds you for your entire life. But who's fault is it? Is it still whitey's fault for the sins of our fathers? How long can our ancestors actions be held against us? At what point does the ball get placed in the court of the black community? When will 'poor' black America stand up and decide that the best way to make themselves equal to 'whitey' is not through govt entitlements and help from the racist NAACP, but through hard work, morals, ethics, and personal responsibility?

Again, no disrespect meant, Blackstone. If I have said something you find offensive, let me know via PM.

I agree...

I almost find it disrespectful towards the generation of black america that actually went through some of the strugles that are still mentioned...black america of my generation FAR TO MUCH imo rides the coat tails of the people that REALLY struggled and that is what I have had enough of...

example:

19 year old black male sells drugs and commits crimes...gets caught gets in trouble and society screams he has no other options...and falls back on the "its the situation he is put in" and that young man beats the same drum and rides the coat tales of his ancestors screaming that white america has given him no options.

while the 19 year old white male does the EXACT same crime and no one says..."its the situation he is put in" because society says he's white he must have been privlidged and didnt have to struggle to rise up out of some horrible situation.

I guess it just will never be seen through the eyes of a young white male because my eyes no mater how fair they may be are still WHITE eyes and there for are jaded from birth.

It sucks.......

NCA

Clint Watts
07-14-2010, 02:03 PM
I disagree, I believe white America is responsible for the plight of poor black America today to some degree. The progressive "Entitlement" mentality (both republican and democrat) is what I believe is keeping the black community in the projects. I will give you more, just vote for me. Conservatives are demonized for asking somebody to get off there butts and earn something. This hold true for poor white America also. Just my ignorant two cents.

troy schwab
07-14-2010, 02:10 PM
I disagree, I believe white America is responsible for the plight of poor black America today to some degree. The progressive "Entitlement" mentality (both republican and democrat) is what I believe is keeping the black community in the projects. I will give you more, just vote for me. Conservatives are demonized for asking somebody to get off there butts and earn something. This hold true for poor white America also. Just my ignorant two cents.

I completely agree, other than I would substitute "white america" with american government........ the government applied entitlement is to blame wholely for this issue IMO and YES!, conservatives are the bad guys....... how dare you ask someone to work????? Just keep collecting welfare, adjust to it, and never have to really have any responsibilities........ and yes, this completely holds true for any welfare state or race, be it black, white, latino, etc. Its pathetic IMO

gman0046
07-14-2010, 02:13 PM
Ever heard the saying "God helps those who help themselves". There's too many on the welfare rolls just helping themselves to the Government Gravy Train. Get a job and work for a living. It's the American way.

Blackstone
07-14-2010, 11:16 PM
For starters, I mean no disrespect.

That being said, I think that blacks (not all, of course) are the main reasons that the black people are not 'allowed to get over things'. It's tough to break a stereotype when you don't even try. I don't mean to imply that all blacks don't try to remove themselves from the stereotypical rappin' gangbangin' ho chasin' street thuggin' black man. That is obviously not true. But many, I would almost say most, young black males (and females to some extent) glorify the life of the rapper, the drug dealer, the gang leader, the promiscuous sports star, etc...That is what TOO MANY of them aspire to be. When you lead that kind of lifestyle, you are only hurting your own people. There are too many black families that are caught in the trap of bad parents, broken families, no parents, no money, no 'real' dreams, no knowledge of how to attain a better life legally, no DESIRE to obtain a better life legally, etc. I understand that it is incredibly difficult to make something respectable of yourself when that is what surrounds you for your entire life. But who's fault is it? Is it still whitey's fault for the sins of our fathers? How long can our ancestors actions be held against us? At what point does the ball get placed in the court of the black community? When will 'poor' black America stand up and decide that the best way to make themselves equal to 'whitey' is not through govt entitlements and help from the racist NAACP, but through hard work, morals, ethics, and personal responsibility?

Again, no disrespect meant, Blackstone. If I have said something you find offensive, let me know via PM.

No disrespect taken.

My question is why should I have to break a stereotype? Stereotypes are generally created by someone other than the group the stereotype is about. If I walked into your office to do business with you, or for a job, why should you assume anything about me that you would not assume about a white person? Why should I have to break some stereotype first?

When I grew up in the 1970ís the stereotype of blacks perpetuated by TV and movies was that they were all pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, drug users, and they all lived in slums. In reality, I grew up in a middle income neighborhood of single family home, with 2 parents. There werenít any drug dealers on the corner, or gangs. But, I canít tell you how many times some white person asked me about growing up in ďthe hoodĒ.

The kids I grew up around were pretty much the same as me. Some went to college and some didnít, but most turned out to be hard working middle-income Americans, just like me. Many of them now have kids that have gone to college, and have done better than their parents.

None of my black friends are on welfare. Most of them have worked very hard, and now have children that are either in college or have already graduated from college. How many images of those black people have you been exposed to? So, to say that most black males and females fall into the category of drug dealers, gangbangers, etc. is not accurate. To be sure, far too many into that lifestyle, but there are a lot donít.

I do not presume to speak for all black people. However, you have to realize that just like you have bought into a stereotype of black people, many blacks have bought into a stereotype of whites. So, every time something happens that appear to be racially motivated, it reaffirms that stereotype to them. They believe that, just like you ancestors, you will harm them the first opportunity you get.

You ask how long can your ancestors actions be held against you? If it was just about what your ancestors did, this would have been resolved long ago. Surely, you realize that racism still exists today. That should be evident just from some of the racist comments that have been posted on this forum. And, while a few have spoken up against it, for the most part, those comments went unaddressed. What you have to remember is, those making the remarks are just a microcosm of society as a whole. These are the same people that control hiring and firing at companies, approve or deny loans, award contracts, etc. Do you think they set their biases aside when itís time to make those decisions? Although, things are significantly better than they used to be, there are still those that seek to exclude blacks. This I know from first hand experiences.

Until both sides decide to let go of their prejudices, the mistrust, accusations, and animosity will continue. Personally, I have decided to do my part. I have chosen to take the high road, and judge each person based on their own actions. The question is, are you willing to do the same?

Gerry Clinchy
07-15-2010, 07:17 AM
I disagree, I believe white America is responsible for the plight of poor black America today to some degree. The progressive "Entitlement" mentality (both republican and democrat) is what I believe is keeping the black community in the projects. I will give you more, just vote for me. Conservatives are demonized for asking somebody to get off there butts and earn something. This hold true for poor white America also. Just my ignorant two cents.


There has to be some intelligent way to transition welfare beneficiaries (no matter their color ... and I believe Jeff has mentioned the majority are NOT black, and I can believe that) into productive workers.

I think it must offer an incentive to retain the welfare benefits to a certain degree. Would you work for free? Sorry, I wouldn't unless I were independently wealthy to begin with. Some on this forum may be fortunate enough to have a job they would be happy to do simply for the gratification it gives them if they didn't also have to earn a living. Others may do jobs that provide sustenance, but would not be their choice of calling if not compelled by economic reality.

So the welfare recipient who can get a menial job but loses welfare benefits dollar for dollar as a result could easily come to the same conclusion. Very pragmatic decision, it would seem.

I'd guess that a transition period would require decrease of welfare benefit would have to be no more than about a 1:4 basis, up to "X" total income; and adjusted for COL. In the end, breaking the cycle and empowerment would cost less than doing nothing. One might at least decrease welfare payments by 1/4 ... which might be a substantial sum & allow acceleration of training programs, etc. Not a quick fix at all ... a long-term investment to change a mindset that has had decades to ingrain itself.

For motivation, it would certainly appear, only some kind of personal benefit must be offered. When it is, individuals begin to "aspire". The Chinese workers may be a perfect example. As they have been able to increase their standard of living with jobs, they are aspiring to more than what they've got. It's no wonder the Chinese govt fears the monster they've created ... a capitalist mentality in their workforce. And I'd bet those in the workforce outnumber the govt lackeys.

ducknwork
07-15-2010, 07:47 AM
No disrespect taken.

My question is why should I have to break a stereotype? Stereotypes are generally created by someone other than the group the stereotype is about. If I walked into your office to do business with you, or for a job, why should you assume anything about me that you would not assume about a white person? Why should I have to break some stereotype first? addressed below

When I grew up in the 1970ís the stereotype of blacks perpetuated by TV and movies was that they were all pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, drug users, and they all lived in slums. In reality, I grew up in a middle income neighborhood of single family home, with 2 parents. There werenít any drug dealers on the corner, or gangs. But, I canít tell you how many times some white person asked me about growing up in ďthe hoodĒ. That really sucks that you had to be asked that. But why did you get that question? Because the black man living your lifestyle is not 'glorified' like the lifestyle of 50 cent or Kobe Bryant.

The kids I grew up around were pretty much the same as me. Some went to college and some didnít, but most turned out to be hard working middle-income Americans, just like me. Many of them now have kids that have gone to college, and have done better than their parents.
I think that is awesome, regardless of color. Why aren't more people (of all colors, not just blacks) like that?

None of my black friends are on welfare. Most of them have worked very hard, and now have children that are either in college or have already graduated from college. How many images of those black people have you been exposed to? Plenty. The crowd living downtown in the projects has seen plenty also, but they don't care. It's not as 'cool' or 'profitable' to live like that. My personal favorite comment--that lifestyle is too 'white'.:rolleyes: Remember when O was accused of being too white during the campaign? What is that about?So, to say that most black males and females fall into the category of drug dealers, gangbangers, etc. is not accurate. To be sure, far too many into that lifestyle, but there are a lot donít.

I do not presume to speak for all black people. However, you have to realize that just like you have bought into a stereotype of black people, many blacks have bought into a stereotype of whites.I don't mean to make you think that I believe all, or even most black people fit into that stereotype. So, every time something happens that appear to be racially motivated, it reaffirms that stereotype to them. It seems that too many OF BOTH COLORS look for things that they can scream 'racism' about. I perceive that blacks call racism more than whites, but you may feel the opposite and probably only because of the color of our skin and life experiences. They believe that, just like you ancestors, you will harm them the first opportunity you get.They wouldn't be stereotyping, would they?:eek:

You ask how long can your ancestors actions be held against you? If it was just about what your ancestors did, this would have been resolved long ago. Surely, you realize that racism still exists today.On both sides of the coin, however, I feel that 'reverse' racism is more of a problem today. That should be evident just from some of the racist comments that have been posted on this forum. And, while a few have spoken up against it, for the most part, those comments went unaddressed. What you have to remember is, those making the remarks are just a microcosm of society as a whole. These are the same people that control hiring and firing at companies, approve or deny loans, award contracts, etc. Do you think they set their biases aside when itís time to make those decisions? Although, things are significantly better than they used to be, there are still those that seek to exclude blacks. This I know from first hand experiences.

Until both sides decide to let go of their prejudices, the mistrust, accusations, and animosity will continue. Personally, I have decided to do my part. Then someone on your side needs to shut up the likes of Jackson, Farrakhan, et al. MLK Jr would be ashamed of the 'black movement' today.I have chosen to take the high road, and judge each person based on their own actions. The question is, are you willing to do the same?I have since the day I was born.

I don't judge each individual person based on a stereotype, but I judge them based on them. The 'non stereotypical' black does not get 'advertised' enough to show the younger crowd that there is something to aspire to other than driving on twenty fo's and selling drugs. No offense meant, but I can tell from your picture, it has been a while since you have been in high school. It hasn't been quite as long for me;-). If you saw how the majority of young black males in high school acts (and I am sure that it has gotten worse since I graduated), you would probably be appalled at how they are representing 'your people' and you might have less question about why there is such a stereotype.

As far as walking into my office to do business with me, unfortunately I, as well as many others, maybe even you, sometimes judge a book by it's cover. Within a few seconds of talking to someone, my opinion can certainly do a 180, but many others are not capable of changing. I certainly would have a different first impression if these two guys pictured below walked into my office. Wouldn't you?

Maybe it has to do with the locations where we live. Where do you live? Around here, you just don't see nearly as many blacks like you described as you see the kind I have described.

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr104/sedwards_08/misc/Thug.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i172/PrairieHunter/PhillipTannerWithPheasantChicken.jpg

subroc
07-15-2010, 07:49 AM
:D chuckling :D

yeh, I know what you mean.

One is "strapped" the other has a couple crosses around his neck.