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Franco
07-14-2010, 09:43 AM
This a non-profit movement for an intelliegent energy policy.

Membership is FREE!

http://www.co2isgreen.org/default.aspx/MenuItemID/137/MenuGroup/AboutUs.htm

Help spread the word!

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 10:44 AM
This a non-profit movement for an intelliegent energy policy.

Membership is FREE!

http://www.co2isgreen.org/default.aspx/MenuItemID/137/MenuGroup/AboutUs.htm

Help spread the word!
This falls into the same category as promoting smoking for weight loss.

Franco
07-14-2010, 10:51 AM
This falls into the same category as promoting smoking for weight loss.



I don't see it, maybe you would care to elaborate?

Also, with the huge National debt, the last thing our economy needs is $5-$6 per gallon gasoline. Besides, we have enough federal taxes already placed on gasoline.

I have to run but will return later today.

Franco
07-14-2010, 01:11 PM
I'll add that the only ones that will benefit by any new tax on gasoline and other fossil fuels will be the investment banking firms like Goldman Sachs that will be trading carbon credits.

This is nothing more than another tax scheme that the consumer will have to pay.

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 01:36 PM
I don't see it, maybe you would care to elaborate?

Also, with the huge National debt, the last thing our economy needs is $5-$6 per gallon gasoline. Besides, we have enough federal taxes already placed on gasoline.

I have to run but will return later today.
The site you referenced is promoting CO2 as a desirable thing to pump into the air since it will help plant life. As many have had the misfortune to discover, there are a lot of substances that are beneficial in certain quantities and fatal when those quantities go beyond safe levels. To pretend that CO2 emissions are beneficial when they hit a level never seen in our atmosphere since humans evolved is the height of cynical hypocrisy.

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 01:39 PM
I'll add that the only ones that will benefit by any new tax on gasoline and other fossil fuels will be the investment banking firms like Goldman Sachs that will be trading carbon credits.

This is nothing more than another tax scheme that the consumer will have to pay.
While I do not believe that there is any question about the fact that CO2 is a pollutant, there is a lot of room for discussion on what should be done from a policy perspective. However, increases in the cost of gasoline to the levels you suggest are probably going to happen anyway unless there are major consumption shifts away from fossil fuels for other purposes.

Franco
07-14-2010, 02:49 PM
While I do not believe that there is any question about the fact that CO2 is a pollutant, there is a lot of room for discussion on what should be done from a policy perspective. However, increases in the cost of gasoline to the levels you suggest are probably going to happen anyway unless there are major consumption shifts away from fossil fuels for other purposes.

Actually, there is currently an over supply of oil because of the downturn in the global economy. Normally, with what is going on the the Gulf Of Mexico, Wall Street oil speculators would have sent the price per barrel through the roof.

What will drive prices up sharply in the near future is the current administrations hostillity towards oil companies. I'm really surprised the UAW is going to allow him to push the Cap and Tax program.

We are currently seeing oil companies and the business that support them move offshore or to Dubai. All Cap and Tax will do other than to make Wall St traders richer is to make the USA more dependent on oil imports. Of course, this will make the Muslim oil producers happy as well.

It is crazy to punish industry and consumers with additinal fuel taxes when the alternatives are not readily available.

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 03:05 PM
Actually, there is currently an over supply of oil because of the downturn in the global economy. Normally, with what is going on the the Gulf Of Mexico, Wall Street oil speculators would have sent the price per barrel through the roof.

What will drive prices up sharply in the near future is the current administrations hostillity towards oil companies. I'm really surprised the UAW is going to allow him to push the Cap and Tax program.

We are currently seeing oil companies and the business that support them move offshore or to Dubai. All Cap and Tax will do other than to make Wall St traders richer is to make the USA more dependent on oil imports. Of course, this will make the Muslim oil producers happy as well.

It is crazy to punish industry and consumers with additional fuel taxes when the alternatives are not readily available.
What will drive prices up dramatically is increased demand from China and India, no matter what is done by any US administration.

Captain Mike D
07-14-2010, 03:36 PM
What will drive prices up dramatically is increased demand from China and India, no matter what is done by any US administration.

SO according to your logic- It is far better to to pay an inflated price for fuel and EVERYTHING ELSE YOU PURCHASE OR WEAR so it can be be passed to the feds in a tax, than it is to pay more due to market demand for the product as supply would dictate.

Assuming cap and tax does pass and we all are paying more for every product , what happens when India and China really do gobble up huge shares of the available inventory? Cap and tax will be crippling our economy, couple China and India on top of it and you will see an economic melt down in this country. We are years away from viable alternatives.

How much energy is used to charge the batteries of that electric car you own if all your electricity is produced from oil or coal?

Mike

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 03:45 PM
SO according to your logic- It is far better to to pay an inflated price for fuel and EVERYTHING ELSE YOU PURCHASE OR WEAR so it can be be passed to the feds in a tax, than it is to pay more due to market demand for the product as supply would dictate.

Assuming cap and tax does pass and we all are paying more for every product , what happens when India and China really do gobble up huge shares of the available inventory? Cap and tax will be crippling our economy, couple China and India on top of it and you will see an economic melt down in this country. We are years away from viable alternatives.

How much energy is used to charge the batteries of that electric car you own if all your electricity is produced from oil or coal?

Mike
I'm not sure I understand the basis for you statements. Cap and trade relates directly to energy consumption. Areas that can reduce energy consumption are in a position to make money by selling their credits. People that take no action to reduce emissions may end up having to buy credits from others. Over time, the impact of the credits will be to increase the cost of inefficiency and the benefits of improving efficiency. I am not wedded to cap and trade as a mechanism for reducing carbon emissions. However, carbon emissions impose a cost on all of us that us that is not being paid by producers. As a consequence, they produce more emissions than they would if they paid the full economic cost. That is an issue I believe needs to be addressed just as we require businesses to pay the cost of disposing of the other garbage they produce.

Franco
07-14-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm not sure I understand the basis for you statements. Cap and trade relates directly to energy consumption. Areas that can reduce energy consumption are in a position to make money by selling their credits. People that take no action to reduce emissions may end up having to buy credits from others. Over time, the impact of the credits will be to increase the cost of inefficiency and the benefits of improving efficiency. I am not wedded to cap and trade as a mechanism for reducing carbon emissions. However, carbon emissions impose a cost on all of us that us that is not being paid by producers. As a consequence, they produce more emissions than they would if they paid the full economic cost. That is an issue I believe needs to be addressed just as we require businesses to pay the cost of disposing of the other garbage they produce.

Jeff, this might work in Fairytale Land. But, in the real world it would be a disaster for the USA economy. The only people that will benefit by such an ill concieved program are Al Gore, his cronies and Wall Street!

I am all for tax credits to those businesses (I intentionally left government out since they are the solution to nothing), that are working to develope viable energy sources. The solutions lay within the private sector and not the government.

Captain Mike D
07-14-2010, 09:03 PM
However, carbon emissions impose a cost on all of us that us that is not being paid by producers. As a consequence, they produce more emissions than they would if they paid the full economic cost. That is an issue I believe needs to be addressed just as we require businesses to pay the cost of disposing of the other garbage they produce.

Jeff,
In a free market economy, businesses pay for nothing! All costs relating to production, R&R, Taxes etc are paid for by the consumer in the end. Cap and Taxers want to layer one more tax to be paid after all the other taxes and costs have been figured into the cost of a product. The public will bear the weight not business.
I guess if business was actually forced to absorb the added cost we would likely be looking at 1 of 2 scenarios.
1. bad economy, reduce or hold price at current or reduced levels to try to keep EMPLOYEES from losing jobs.
2. Federal government decides what is fair for a profit margin for a company, and directs how much the Governments share is, how much should be spent on labor and management, which ethnic, organized, or political group should recieve just compensation for working at that business and coupled with organized labor the government should determine wages.

The reality is the Government is taking from every end and "We the People" are not getting our money's worth, as evidenced by almost any government program or responce to any disaster



Mike

YardleyLabs
07-15-2010, 05:55 AM
Jeff,
In a free market economy, businesses pay for nothing! All costs relating to production, R&R, Taxes etc are paid for by the consumer in the end. Cap and Taxers want to layer one more tax to be paid after all the other taxes and costs have been figured into the cost of a product. The public will bear the weight not business.
I guess if business was actually forced to absorb the added cost we would likely be looking at 1 of 2 scenarios.
1. bad economy, reduce or hold price at current or reduced levels to try to keep EMPLOYEES from losing jobs.
2. Federal government decides what is fair for a profit margin for a company, and directs how much the Governments share is, how much should be spent on labor and management, which ethnic, organized, or political group should recieve just compensation for working at that business and coupled with organized labor the government should determine wages.

The reality is the Government is taking from every end and "We the People" are not getting our money's worth, as evidenced by almost any government program or responce to any disaster



Mike
What you are missing is the fact that all those unpaid costs are actually taxes already. We are all paying in the loss of clean air, clean water, and threats to the places that our children will need to live. The benefits of ignoring the costs do not accrue equally. In fact, I suspect a detailed analysis would show that the unpaid costs of pollution represent a massive shift in "wealth" from the poor to the rich and from future generations to the present. Both are undesirable.