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M&K's Retrievers
07-14-2010, 01:36 PM
I started to say "health care lies" but why limit it.

http://lifenews.com/nat6531.html

troy schwab
07-14-2010, 01:55 PM
And leave it to Ed Rundell to throw PA into the mess........ what a piece of...... god, I hate this state I live in......... honestly!

gman0046
07-14-2010, 02:09 PM
Obongo has lied on everything. Even Liberals have to admit it. Thats why Americans can't wait to hit the voting booths and take back our country.

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 03:00 PM
Where is the lie?

The language of the bill does not prohibit states from defining their own programs and drawing on the support allowed from Federal funding. The executive order signed by Obama does not prohibit Pennsylvania from implementing its own program. Obama publicly opposed broader language. As it is, abortion foes gained language that would prohibit private health insurance plans from covering a service that is now routinely provided if they want to be able to offer services to people through health insurance pools (the only situation where the health reform bill prohibits a type of legal medical care).

I understand that anti-choice forces actually want to use every possible tool to make abortions illegal and reverse current law, but I still don't understand how this situation makes Obama a liar. Obama has consistently been pro-choice. He agreed to a limited restriction only to gain votes needed to pass health reform. He never agreed to go further in supporting the anti-choice agenda.

road kill
07-14-2010, 03:05 PM
Where is the lie?

The language of the bill does not prohibit states from defining their own programs and drawing on the support allowed from Federal funding. The executive order signed by Obama does not prohibit Pennsylvania from implementing its own program. Obama publicly opposed broader language. As it is, abortion foes gained language that would prohibit private health insurance plans from covering a service that is now routinely provided if they want to be able to offer services to people through health insurance pools (the only situation where the health reform bill prohibits a type of legal medical care).

I understand that anti-choice forces actually want to use every possible tool to make abortions illegal and reverse current law, but I still don't understand how this situation makes Obama a liar. Obama has consistently been pro-choice. He agreed to a limited restriction only to gain votes needed to pass health reform. He never agreed to go further in supporting the anti-choice agenda.

Though it may not be a lie, this is certainly not consistant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pFiCPgmgqE

I beleive you can hear his comment at 38 seconds.
(on federal dollars being used for abortions)

Now that I think of it...it's a LIE!!!

lie-- noun
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.





rk:D

troy schwab
07-14-2010, 03:17 PM
The lie would be when OBONGO SAID " no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions" Sept 9 2009......... JUST SAYIN!

Are those or aren't those "federal dollars" ????????

Who knows, maybe the teleprompter skipped or something.......

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 03:21 PM
Though it may not be a lie, this is certainly not consistant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pFiCPgmgqE





rk
So it is clear, the plans provided through the PA program are private plans. The state program provides subsidies for a portion of the cost of coverage -- reflecting the higher risk of covering people with pre-existing conditions -- rather than the full cost of care. The individuals themselves are charged premiums that are slightly higher than the would face if they did not have pre-existing conditions, but lower than they would face now assuming they could get any coverage based on their prior medical history. This is no more a Federal subsidy than it is a Federal subsidy to allow tax deductions for health insurance premiums even when the policies purchased cover abortions. Abortions are legal, and they are covered routinely by almost all private health insurance plans. Obama did not agree to change that. He did agree not to provide explicit programs for Federal payment of abortion costs. The PA plan does not do that.

road kill
07-14-2010, 03:24 PM
So it is clear, the plans provided through the PA program are private plans. The state program provides subsidies for a portion of the cost of coverage -- reflecting the higher risk of covering people with pre-existing conditions -- rather than the full cost of care. The individuals themselves are charged premiums that are slightly higher than the would face if they did not have pre-existing conditions, but lower than they would face now assuming they could get any coverage based on their prior medical history. This is no more a Federal subsidy than it is a Federal subsidy to allow tax deductions for health insurance premiums even when the policies purchased cover abortions. Abortions are legal, and they are covered routinely by almost all private health insurance plans. Obama did not agree to change that. He did agree not to provide explicit programs for Federal payment of abortion costs. The PA plan does not do that.
When did "dollars" become a federal program.

Once again, you have been betrayed by your leader.

He LIED!!

Spin it however you want, he said it, we can hear it and interpret it without any help.



stan b

troy schwab
07-14-2010, 03:29 PM
sounds like a lie, looks like a lie, might be???????????? ummmmmm...... hang on a minute........... wait for it.............














wait for it...............



YEP! ITS A LIE!

M&K's Retrievers
07-14-2010, 03:57 PM
Where is the lie?

The language of the bill does not prohibit states from defining their own programs and drawing on the support allowed from Federal funding. The executive order signed by Obama does not prohibit Pennsylvania from implementing its own program. Obama publicly opposed broader language. As it is, abortion foes gained language that would prohibit private health insurance plans from covering a service that is now routinely provided if they want to be able to offer services to people through health insurance pools (the only situation where the health reform bill prohibits a type of legal medical care).

I understand that anti-choice forces actually want to use every possible tool to make abortions illegal and reverse current law, but I still don't understand how this situation makes Obama a liar. Obama has consistently been pro-choice. He agreed to a limited restriction only to gain votes needed to pass health reform. He never agreed to go further in supporting the anti-choice agenda.

Federal money which comes from tax payers and then given to PA in the form of funds which will in part pay for abortions after obama signed a useless Executive Order banning Federally funded abortions is a lie. No other spin need apply.

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 04:04 PM
When did "dollars" become a federal program.

Once again, you have been betrayed by your leader.

He LIED!!

Spin it however you want, he said it, we can hear it and interpret it without any help.



stan b
Writing in red and green doesn't translate to facts.

Exactly what statement was made where Obama lied? If there is a lie, it should be possible to provide the statement made, the facts that specifically contradict it, and evidence indicating that there was an intent to mislead (being wrong is not a lie). If there is a lie, it comes from those who complained at the time that the commitments made by the administration did not go far enough to prevent all possible things that they believed should be prevented. The administration refused to make broader commitments. Now a situation arises that the anti-choice forces don't like they would be well in their rights to say "We told you so. The administration was able to do something we don't like without breaking its limited commitment." The administration never promised not to do this and the language of what the administration did promise is not inconsistent with what is being done.

This administration is pro-choice. If anyone has grounds for complaint, it is those who supported a pro-choice President only to find him making ridiculous concessions to anti-choice forces. Unfortunately, the President did what he had to do to achieve a political compromise. He has a moral obligation to honor that compromise, but no obligation to go further. Those complaining now opposed the entire program anyway. They were not part of the "deal" and were certainly not lied to.

road kill
07-14-2010, 04:09 PM
Writing in red and green doesn't translate to facts.

Exactly what statement was made where Obama lied? If there is a lie, it should be possible to provide the statement made, the facts that specifically contradict it, and evidence indicating that there was an intent to mislead (being wrong is not a lie). If there is a lie, it comes from those who complained at the time that the commitments made by the administration did not go far enough to prevent all possible things that they believed should be prevented. The administration refused to make broader commitments. Now a situation arises that the anti-choice forces don't like they would be well in their rights to say "We told you so. The administration was able to do something we don't like without breaking its limited commitment." The administration never promised not to do this and the language of what the administration did promise is not inconsistent with what is being done.

This administration is pro-choice. If anyone has grounds for complaint, it is those who supported a pro-choice President only to find him making ridiculous concessions to anti-choice forces. Unfortunately, the President did what he had to do to achieve a political compromise. He has a moral obligation to honor that compromise, but no obligation to go further. Those complaining now opposed the entire program anyway. They were not part of the "deal" and were certainly not lied to.


You are better than this.
Watch what he says in the interveiw.

"NO FEDERAL DOLLARS FOR ABORTION!!"

38 seconds in.
He said it, it is a lie!!



Spin all you want, he said it, and now has given FEDERAL DOLLARS FOR ABORTION.
Paragraph 2 & 3;
"The Obama Administration will give Pennsylvania $160 million to set up a new "high-risk" insurance program under a provision of the federal health care legislation enacted in March.

It has quietly approved a plan submitted by an appointee of pro-abortion Governor Edward Rendell under which the new program will cover any abortion that is legal in Pennsylvania."


Stop pretending Jeff.



stan b

troy schwab
07-14-2010, 04:12 PM
Exactly what statement was made where Obama lied? Please see my above post.......If there is a lie, it should be possible to provide the statement made, the facts that specifically contradict


Unfortunately, the President did what he had to do to achieve a political compromise. Yep.... he lied! LOL


Ill wait..... while you twist it another way.........LOL

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 04:36 PM
You are better than this.
Watch what he says in the interveiw.

"NO FEDERAL DOLLARS FOR ABORTION!!"

38 seconds in.
He said it, it is a lie!!



Spin all you want, he said it, and now has given FEDERAL DOLLARS FOR ABORTION.
Paragraph 2 & 3;
"The Obama Administration will give Pennsylvania $160 million to set up a new "high-risk" insurance program under a provision of the federal health care legislation enacted in March.

It has quietly approved a plan submitted by an appointee of pro-abortion Governor Edward Rendell under which the new program will cover any abortion that is legal in Pennsylvania."


Stop pretending Jeff.



stan b
Show me what part of the Pennsylvania plan uses Federal dollars to pay for abortions. Parochial schools have argued for years that having public funds used to pay bussing costs and some book purchase costs for religious schools does not violate the separation of church and state. The courts have agreed that paying a portion of the cost that does not go to religious instruction is legal. Are you saying they are all liars? Federal dollars are mingled with non-Federal dollars in many ways in programs and operations that provide abortions. Family planning clinics receive Federal grants for covered activities and provide abortion counseling using non-Federal funds. Hospitals receive Medicaid and Medicare funds to support general overhead costs, which may include costs related to abortions, even though they do not receive direct payment for abortions. Students receiving Federally financed grants and loans may provide abortion related services as part of their education and even be trained in proper procedures for performing abortions. None of these activities is considered a violation of the Federal funding ban. Most businesses provide their employees with health benefits for which the business receives Federal tax credits in some cases, and Federal tax deductions in others. Most of these plans fund abortion services. If the Pennsylvania program violates the ban, then all of these programs do as well.

M&K's Retrievers
07-14-2010, 04:45 PM
Show me what part of the Pennsylvania plan uses Federal dollars to pay for abortions. Parochial schools have argued for years that having public funds used to pay bussing costs and some book purchase costs for religious schools does not violate the separation of church and state. The courts have agreed that paying a portion of the cost that does not go to religious instruction is legal. Are you saying they are all liars? Federal dollars are mingled with non-Federal dollars in many ways in programs and operations that provide abortions. Family planning clinics receive Federal grants for covered activities and provide abortion counseling using non-Federal funds. Hospitals receive Medicaid and Medicare funds to support general overhead costs, which may include costs related to abortions, even though they do not receive direct payment for abortions. Students receiving Federally financed grants and loans may provide abortion related services as part of their education and even be trained in proper procedures for performing abortions. None of these activities is considered a violation of the Federal funding ban. Most businesses provide their employees with health benefits for which the business receives Federal tax credits in some cases, and Federal tax deductions in others. Most of these plans fund abortion services. If the Pennsylvania program violates the ban, then all of these programs do as well.

I can't speak for Stan, but I'm calling obama a liar. Again.:mad:

YardleyLabs
07-14-2010, 04:46 PM
I can't speak for Stan, but I'm calling obama a liar. Again.:mad:
And I could call you a liar with similar justification (could, but wouldn't because it would be rude). That doesn't make it true.

M&K's Retrievers
07-15-2010, 01:19 AM
And I could call you a liar with similar justification (could, but wouldn't because it would be rude). That doesn't make it true.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, again. I can't imagine what is so hard for you to grasp.

KellyG
07-15-2010, 01:38 AM
4311 Just ask Joe he knows. :-P

JDogger
07-15-2010, 01:55 AM
Guess we will have to agree to disagree, again. I can't imagine what is so hard for you to grasp.

Well there you go Mike. What in the world ever made you think that a post on the political sub-forum of an obscure retriever forum would lead to universal concurence?

JD

YardleyLabs
07-15-2010, 06:48 AM
Guess we will have to agree to disagree, again. I can't imagine what is so hard for you to grasp.
Nothing is hard to grasp. You said he was a liar. I asked you to document the claim. You said he was a liar again without ever providing any documentation. Apparently the thing I have difficulty grasping is that the term liar, in your lexicon, is a synonym for someone that disagrees with you and has nothing to do with deliberate falsehoods. I would personally be willing to stipulate that virtually every politician and political commentator in the country is a liar with the talking heads of Fox News leading the pack. It is also my experience that the more extreme the political views, the more likely a person is to lie because extremists think that lying is justified to discredit their evil enemies.

road kill
07-15-2010, 07:16 AM
Nothing is hard to grasp. You said he was a liar. I asked you to document the claim. You said he was a liar again without ever providing any documentation. Apparently the thing I have difficulty grasping is that the term liar, in your lexicon, is a synonym for someone that disagrees with you and has nothing to do with deliberate falsehoods. I would personally be willing to stipulate that virtually every politician and political commentator in the country is a liar with the talking heads of Fox News leading the pack. It is also my experience that the more extreme the political views, the more likely a person is to lie because extremists think that lying is justified to discredit their evil enemies.

In this case Obama is being called a LIAR because he lied.

Watch him speak, read his appropriation of federal dollars to your state.
It's all right there.




rk

YardleyLabs
07-15-2010, 08:15 AM
In this case Obama is being called a LIAR because he lied.

Watch him speak, read his appropriation of federal dollars to your state.
It's all right there.




rk
There is no indication that any Federal funds will be used to pay for abortion services under the Pennsylvania plan. The "crime" of the plan is that it permits participants to purchase commercial insurance by paying the bulk of the premium themselves and receiving a public subsidy to compensate for the higher risk associated with their pre-existing conclusions. As provided by the law, Pennsylvania, like every other state, has the option of administering the program themselves as they have elected to do. What part of this is contrary to anything promised by Obama? It is not contrary to what he said in the video you referenced, just as nothing in the anti abortion complaints shows how Federal funds are being used to pay for abortions under the PA plan. Given all that, I am at a loss to see any hint of a lie. No one ever agreed to make abortions illegal or to prevent insurance companies from including abortion services under their plans. Virtually all policies cover abortions now and hopefully will continue to do so. When Obama says that the health reform bill is about health reform, not abortion, he is also saying it is not about anti-abortion. The commitments made were to preserve the status quo with regard to Federal funding of abortions. That has been done.

road kill
07-15-2010, 08:30 AM
There is no indication that any Federal funds will be used to pay for abortion services under the Pennsylvania plan. The "crime" of the plan is that it permits participants to purchase commercial insurance by paying the bulk of the premium themselves and receiving a public subsidy to compensate for the higher risk associated with their pre-existing conclusions. As provided by the law, Pennsylvania, like every other state, has the option of administering the program themselves as they have elected to do. What part of this is contrary to anything promised by Obama? It is not contrary to what he said in the video you referenced, just as nothing in the anti abortion complaints shows how Federal funds are being used to pay for abortions under the PA plan. Given all that, I am at a loss to see any hint of a lie. No one ever agreed to make abortions illegal or to prevent insurance companies from including abortion services under their plans. Virtually all policies cover abortions now and hopefully will continue to do so. When Obama says that the health reform bill is about health reform, not abortion, he is also saying it is not about anti-abortion. The commitments made were to preserve the status quo with regard to Federal funding of abortions. That has been done.

AGAIN :rolleyes:;


"NO FEDERAL DOLLARS FOR ABORTION!!"

38 seconds in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pFiCPgmgqE
He said it, it is a lie!!




Paragraph 2 & 3;
"The Obama Administration will give Pennsylvania $160 million (FEDERAL DOLLARS) to set up a new "high-risk" insurance program under a provision of the federal health care legislation enacted in March.

It has quietly approved a plan submitted by an appointee of pro-abortion Governor Edward Rendell under which the new program will cover any abortion that is legal in Pennsylvania."



rk:D

M&K's Retrievers
07-15-2010, 09:46 AM
There is no indication that any Federal funds will be used to pay for abortion services under the Pennsylvania plan. The "crime" of the plan is that it permits participants to purchase commercial insurance by paying the bulk of the premium themselves and receiving a public subsidy to compensate for the higher risk associated with their pre-existing conclusions. As provided by the law, Pennsylvania, like every other state, has the option of administering the program themselves as they have elected to do. What part of this is contrary to anything promised by Obama? It is not contrary to what he said in the video you referenced, just as nothing in the anti abortion complaints shows how Federal funds are being used to pay for abortions under the PA plan. Given all that, I am at a loss to see any hint of a lie. No one ever agreed to make abortions illegal or to prevent insurance companies from including abortion services under their plans. Virtually all policies cover abortions now and hopefully will continue to do so. When Obama says that the health reform bill is about health reform, not abortion, he is also saying it is not about anti-abortion. The commitments made were to preserve the status quo with regard to Federal funding of abortions. That has been done.

Unbelievable:confused:

gman0046
07-15-2010, 11:44 AM
The latest Obongo lie is they are reporting his stimulus plan saved or created 3 million jobs when in actuality 2.5 million jobs have been lost. I'll bet the 429,000 people who lost their jobs last week are glad Obongo thinks his stimulus plan is working.

Clint Watts
07-15-2010, 05:25 PM
Depends on what the definition of is is. Lots of proof being shown, just not being seen. JD is correct on this.

YardleyLabs
07-17-2010, 11:24 AM
Well, the administration caved in to pressure from anti-choice groups and has reversed its approval of the Pennsylvania plan even though that plan does not violate either the executive order or the law. See http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/07/15/obama-administration-applies-stupak-amendment-high-risk-pools

M&K's Retrievers
07-17-2010, 12:09 PM
Well, the administration caved in to pressure from anti-choice groups and has reversed its approval of the Pennsylvania plan even though that plan does not violate either the executive order or the law. See http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/07/15/obama-administration-applies-stupak-amendment-high-risk-pools

A negative liberal term for pro life.

YardleyLabs
07-17-2010, 12:12 PM
A negative liberal term for pro life.
It seems only fair since I consider myself to be very pro-life even while I support keeping government completely out of the decisions that people make concerning child birth.