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gman0046
07-22-2010, 04:21 PM
What???? The White House spent 23 Million of taxpayers money to back the Kenyan constitution that legalizes abortion.

Do you think Obongo being a Kenyan had anything to do with it? When is enough enough?

Blackstone
07-22-2010, 05:11 PM
What???? The White House spent 23 Million of taxpayers money to back the Kenyan constitution that legalizes abortion.

Do you think Obongo being a Kenyan had anything to do with it? When is enough enough?

The White House also spending $2.77 billion on aid to Israel this year. Do you think Obama being an Israeli had anything to do with it? :rolleyes:

gman0046
07-22-2010, 05:22 PM
Blackstone, your B.S. doesn't matter. You've been posting all day about Fox News give it up, no one cares. At this point don't you think your beating a dead horse? Tomorrow there will be something else surface negatively about Obongo for you to defend. What does matter is Obongo's failed presidency as evidenced by his plummeting poll numbers. More Americans disapprove of him then those who do approve. Go to the July 22 Ramussen poll for specifics. His approval rating is a minus 17%. Mark my words, before Obongo leaves the White House his approval numbers will be worse then G. Bush when he left. Look where Obongo's at in less then a year and a half and dropping fast.

YardleyLabs
07-22-2010, 05:49 PM
There are a lot of good reasons for the US to provide assistance in efforts by Kenyans to improve governance. The nation is important to the stability of Africa and to the security of the US. Simply look on a map to understand why.

The abortion language is a very small part of the Constitution and, quite frankly, is none of our business. However, many different private US organizations have lobbied both for and against language that would affect abortions in the Constitution. Both groups are unhappy with the current proposal. It declares that life begins at conception, but allows abortions when a physician believes that an abortion is needed to save the mother's life. I disagree with the language, Planned Parenthood disagrees with the language, and pro-life organizations disagree with the language. Personally, I think they should all leave the country to make its own decisions. It is not our business.

The same cannot be said of the efforts to pass a new constitution in general. Having a new constitution may significantly improve the odds of having a stable Kenya in the future regardless of the abortion language included.

david gibson
07-22-2010, 06:23 PM
There are a lot of good reasons for the US to provide assistance in efforts by Kenyans to improve governance. The nation is important to the stability of Africa and to the security of the US. Simply look on a map to understand why.

The abortion language is a very small part of the Constitution and, quite frankly, is none of our business. However, many different private US organizations have lobbied both for and against language that would affect abortions in the Constitution. Both groups are unhappy with the current proposal. It declares that life begins at conception, but allows abortions when a physician believes that an abortion is needed to save the mother's life. I disagree with the language, Planned Parenthood disagrees with the language, and pro-life organizations disagree with the language. Personally, I think they should all leave the country to make its own decisions. It is not our business.

The same cannot be said of the efforts to pass a new constitution in general. Having a new constitution may significantly improve the odds of having a stable Kenya in the future regardless of the abortion language included.

so to fully understand your take here yardley - are you pro abortion or con abortion?

Blackstone
07-22-2010, 06:34 PM
Blackstone, your B.S. doesn't matter. You've been posting all day about Fox News give it up, no one cares. At this point don't you think your beating a dead horse? Tomorrow there will be something else surface negatively about Obongo for you to defend. What does matter is Obongo's failed presidency as evidenced by his plummeting poll numbers. More Americans disapprove of him then those who do approve. Go to the July 22 Ramussen poll for specifics. His approval rating is a minus 17%. Mark my words, before Obongo leaves the White House his approval numbers will be worse then G. Bush when he left. Look where Obongo's at in less then a year and a half and dropping fast.

Obviously, my B.S. matters to you because you keep responding to it. Personally, I'm just glad I could reach you on such a deep and personal level. :p

And, while we're on the subject of beating a dead horse, why don't you give that "Obongo" and "Kenyan" thing a rest. Those dead horses are starting to really stink after 1-1/2 years of you beating them. :p

YardleyLabs
07-22-2010, 06:47 PM
so to fully understand your take here yardley - are you pro abortion or con abortion?
Abortion rights in Kenya are none of my business. Abortion rights here are. I remember the period before abortions were legalized too well to ever want to see us return there. I'm not sure when a fetus becomes a person. I don't believe it is a person when it is 64 cells big, but it certainly felt pretty bad when my wife miscarried at four months -- not as bad as losing a child, but pretty darn close. I have sat with people that were close to me as they decided whether to proceed or not with a pregnancy that was not desired. I have also sat with them following whatever decision they made. None of those decisions was easy and I do not believe that government will improve the decisions by becoming involved. I certainly don't think that applying a religious standard through the law to override a woman's ability to make such personal decisions about her body makes any sense at all.

Tim Thomas
07-22-2010, 07:20 PM
It has nothing to do with religion, or how long you've got to know them.....gimme a break....that is such a crock! Thats like saying that some animal thats not been around your home for years getting slaughtered is less of a tragedy. I've been through the whole IVF process...and I'll assure you, whether its 4 cells or breathing in their crib...it's life...a gift from someone much wiser than me or you....take a side...try to be strong enough to....there is right and there is wrong........sorry folks, I can't stand to see spineless responses!

YardleyLabs
07-22-2010, 07:22 PM
It has nothing to do with religion, or how long you've got to know them.....gimme a break....that is such a crock! Thats like saying that some animal thats not been around your home for years getting slaughtered is less of a tragedy. I've been through the whole IVF process...and I'll assure you, whether its 4 cells or breathing in their crib...it's life...a gift from someone much wiser than me or you....take a side...try to be strong enough to....there is right and there is wrong........sorry folks, I can't stand to see spineless responses!
It is absolutely wrong for one person to tell another that she must have a baby.

Tim Thomas
07-22-2010, 07:25 PM
You don't...won't, get it. That is clear.

Hoosier
07-22-2010, 07:37 PM
It is absolutely wrong for one person to tell another that she must have a baby.

No one is telling them they have to have a baby. Didn't your parents discuss the birds and the bees with you?

david gibson
07-22-2010, 07:46 PM
It has nothing to do with religion, or how long you've got to know them.....gimme a break....that is such a crock! Thats like saying that some animal thats not been around your home for years getting slaughtered is less of a tragedy. I've been through the whole IVF process...and I'll assure you, whether its 4 cells or breathing in their crib...it's life...a gift from someone much wiser than me or you....take a side...try to be strong enough to....there is right and there is wrong........sorry folks, I can't stand to see spineless responses!

welcome to potus tim! spineless responses abound here... ;-)

i miss you bro! lets throw some ducks when it cools off!

Tim Thomas
07-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Apparently it's difficult to grasp that taking a life is worse, on anyones scale, than having the baby. His admittance that he's unaware of when life begins, or " when a fetus becomes a person", is enough reason to NOT choose that option. Everything is not "grey"......in fact, very little is...

Tim Thomas
07-22-2010, 07:48 PM
welcome to potus tim! spineless responses abound here... ;-)

i miss you bro! lets throw some ducks when it cools off!

Absolutely....what the heck, lets just throw them early!

gman0046
07-22-2010, 08:21 PM
Blackstone, isn't Obongo a Kenyan? Why is that a problem for you? Can't you handle the truth?

david gibson
07-22-2010, 08:25 PM
Blackstone, isn't Obongo a Kenyan? Why is that a problem for you? Can't you handle the truth?

no gman, he is only 50% kenyan, so therefore it is racist for you to refer to him as "halfrican"

Franco
07-22-2010, 08:30 PM
First, I disagree with giving any country tax payer money. Especially now with the amount of debt we are straddled with.

Second, there were enough moderate/Independent woman that voted for Obama because he was very clear about his support for Choice that it cost the GOP the White House. Any attempt by the GOP to overthrow Roe v Wade is a losing proposition for the GOP, the country will not go backwards.

Emotions run high on both sides of the issue. Do what you are comfortable with but, in the land of the free, that decision is up to the individual.

I do NOT view it as murder and I certainly don't think it is anyone's buisness but the woman involved. If you don't like it, then I am sure those against it have a home full of adopted children. Talk is cheap.

Tim Thomas
07-22-2010, 08:47 PM
First, I disagree with giving any country tax payer money. Especially now with the amount of debt we are straddled with.

Second, there were enough moderate/Independent woman that voted for Obama because he was very clear about his support for Choice that it cost the GOP the White House. Any attempt by the GOP to overthrow Roe v Wade is a losing proposition for the GOP, the country will not go backwards.

Emotions run high on both sides of the issue. Do what you are comfortable with but, in the land of the free, that decision is up to the individual.

I do NOT view it as murder and I certainly don't think it is anyone's buisness but the woman involved. If you don't like it, then I am sure those against it have a home full of adopted children. Talk is cheap.


You're right about one thing....it is that individuals decision. That doesn't make it right or OK. There are consequences in every decision we make...from not being prepared for when catastrophe strikes to taking life. The problem with most fence walkers are that they're under the opinion that if I want to do something, hell, I should be able to...and that everyone else is to blame for the predicament I'm in....we all make choices...some with grave consequences. Sometimes the hard decision is the best.....like someone choosing to raise a pup with all the odds stacked against it....who is to know what that situation might just teach you. I believe that one much wiser than me or you will never give me more than I can handle.....just another lesson for me to learn. That, I'm thankful for.

BonMallari
07-22-2010, 08:49 PM
Maybe he was sending the money home just like all the buspersons and room attendants do here at work when they send money to Mexico, El Salvador, and Guatemala...:p:p:p

Franco
07-22-2010, 08:53 PM
You're right about one thing....it is that individuals decision. That doesn't make it right or OK. There are consequences in every decision we make...from not being prepared for when catastrophe strikes to taking life. The problem with most fence walkers are that they're under the opinion that if I want to do something, hell, I should be able to...and that everyone else is to blame for the predicament I'm in....we all make choices...some with grave consequences. Sometimes the hard decision is the best.....like someone choosing to raise a pup with all the odds stacked against it....who is to know what that situation might just teach you. I believe that one much wiser than me or you will never give me more than I can handle.....just another lesson for me to learn. That, I'm thankful for.

I am all for personal responsibility. There is no doubt that we have become a mentally soft country. I blame the uneducated electorate and career politicians that buy votes with tax payer's money for the position they have put us in. I am but one person that pays more than my share of taxes and I want representation and not lies from goverment.

Blackstone
07-22-2010, 09:02 PM
Blackstone, isn't Obongo a Kenyan? Why is that a problem for you? Can't you handle the truth?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i172/PrairieHunter/gman.jpg

:p:p:p

YardleyLabs
07-23-2010, 03:59 AM
No one is telling them they have to have a baby. Didn't your parents discuss the birds and the bees with you?
In health class, didn't anyone ever point out the fallibility of all birth control techniques? Abstinence has proven itself repeatedly to be the most fallible.:rolleyes:

Hoosier
07-23-2010, 08:22 AM
In health class, didn't anyone ever point out the fallibility of all birth control techniques? Abstinence has proven itself repeatedly to be the most fallible.:rolleyes:

They aren't getting pregnant by washing their underwear in the same wash load. That being said I think we should pay for every abortion the Kenyon's want. Hell, we should actually give them a couple hundred bucks to have them.

troy schwab
07-23-2010, 09:07 AM
Heck 23 mil is a cheap date...... we just sent Pakistan 500 million this week to build dams........ hopefully the terrorists can at least find some work there....... God knows, our people cant.

paul young
07-23-2010, 09:37 AM
it appears we have a sizable contingent of pro-life folks here.

who among you have adopted children?-Paul

gman0046
07-23-2010, 10:14 AM
Twenty three million may not be that bad a deal after all. Never thought about that way.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 10:23 AM
it appears we have a sizable contingent of pro-life folks here.

who among you have adopted children?-Paul

and that has exactly what to do with it? if i am for immigration reform does that mean i have to go and police the border myself?

personally, i am pro choice at the individual level. their mistake/accident was the result of a choice they made when they did the deed, and the choice they make after that is their burden to bear the rest of their life.

but it is not governments business to tell them they must have the baby or not, and it sure is not governments responsibility to use tax dollars to pay for it.

troy schwab
07-23-2010, 10:25 AM
and that has exactly what to do with it? if i am for immigration reform does that mean i have to go and police the border myself?

personally, i am pro choice at the individual level. their mistake/accident was the result of a choice they made when they did the deed, and the choice they make after that is their burden to bear the rest of their life.

but it is not governments business to tell them they must have the baby or not, and it sure is not governments responsibility to use tax dollars to pay for it.

Can I get an AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hew
07-23-2010, 10:55 AM
it appears we have a sizable contingent of pro-life folks here.

who among you have adopted children?-Paul
That's patently juvenile "logic."

Do you operate a no-kill animal shelter in your back yard? No? You must hate stray dogs.

Do you keep criminals locked in your basement? No? You must be pro crime.

Do you let homeless people sleep in your house? No? You must hate homeless people.

bobbyb
07-23-2010, 11:39 AM
Heck 23 mil is a cheap date...... we just sent Pakistan 500 million this week to build dams........ hopefully the terrorists can at least find some work there....... God knows, our people cant.

I think it's more in line with 12.5 billion....and the rich pays 0 taxes...
BobbyB
cajun

paul young
07-23-2010, 11:46 AM
David, i think you should call the Kenyan president and lay down the law for him. how dare they have their own constitution!!!!

after that you should make some calls here at home and demand to be an advisor on how to allocate foreign aid monies. let us all know how you make out....

Hew, so you think it's ok for pro-life groups to advocate carrying unwanted babies full term and putting them up for adoption when they won't adopt them themselves? who do you think pays for those kids to reach the age of majority moving from one foster home to the next if they don't get adopted?

keep your infantile analogies to yourself, please. but what can you expect from a guy with an infant smoking a cigarette for an avatar?-Paul

road kill
07-23-2010, 11:50 AM
The White House also spending $2.77 billion on aid to Israel this year. Do you think Obama being an Israeli had anything to do with it? :rolleyes:
Ah yes, they both seem equally vital to our National security.
Good comparison.:rolleyes:




rk

road kill
07-23-2010, 11:54 AM
In health class, didn't anyone ever point out the fallibility of all birth control techniques? Abstinence has proven itself repeatedly to be the most fallible.:rolleyes:

UUNNBULLLEEEEEVABULLL!! (in my best Dice Clay voice)


100% absolutely all the time, if you don't have sex (abstinence: : to refrain deliberately and often with an effort of self-denial from an action or practice) you can NOT make a baby.

Or in the progressives case and abortion.



rk

Blackstone
07-23-2010, 12:01 PM
Ah yes, they both seem equally vital to our National security.
Good comparison.:rolleyes:




rk

The National security comparison wasn't the point. The absurdity of the original comment was.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 12:10 PM
David, i think you should call the Kenyan president and lay down the law for him. how dare they have their own constitution!!!!

after that you should make some calls here at home and demand to be an advisor on how to allocate foreign aid monies. let us all know how you make out....

Hew, so you think it's ok for pro-life groups to advocate carrying unwanted babies full term and putting them up for adoption when they won't adopt them themselves? who do you think pays for those kids to reach the age of majority moving from one foster home to the next if they don't get adopted?

keep your infantile analogies to yourself, please. but what can you expect from a guy with an infant smoking a cigarette for an avatar?-Paul

predictable response from you. my dissent is not what the kenyan constitution is about, its a 3rd world country dependent upon handouts. my dissent is what our government does with our money, and i dont think it should cover abortions for obamas relatives.

and again, there you go. just because i dont agree with tax money - and all govt money is tax money - for abortions doesnt mean i should then advise on all tax revenue allocations. you take it to the extreme and look like a fool doing it.

hew was dead on with his analogies.

paul young
07-23-2010, 12:31 PM
and a predictable response from you. if i wasn't referred to in a demeaning manner (i believe being called a fool qualifies) it just wouldn't be your style.-Paul

david gibson
07-23-2010, 12:38 PM
and a predictable response from you. if i wasn't referred to in a demeaning manner (i believe being called a fool qualifies) it just wouldn't be your style.-Paul

saying you look like a fool with your actions is not the same as calling you a fool. "like" is the key operative word here. get it? you look "like" one, not saying you are one.

but thats your style, play the victim and try to make me look like the bully when you lose the debate.

cheerio chap

Hew
07-23-2010, 01:00 PM
Hew, so you think it's ok for pro-life groups to advocate carrying unwanted babies full term and putting them up for adoption when they won't adopt them themselves? You know not of what you speak (as if that's a surprise to anyone). For every mother who decides to give her baby up for adoption there are usually multiple families standing in line begging to be chosen as adoptive parents; be the child white, black, brown or polka-dotted. So from a practical standpoint your argument doesn't hold water. From a logical standpoint your argument is facile...unless of course your home is open to any homeless person who wanders in off the street. who do you think pays for those kids to reach the age of majority moving from one foster home to the next if they don't get adopted? For starters your point is based on misinformation as 99.997% (educated guess) of children in foster care are not there because their mom/parents couldn't find a suitable adoptive family for them when they were born. From an ethical angle your point is repugnant...killing an unborn child is more preferable than society having to foot the bill for their welfare? A little Final Solution-esque don't ya think?

keep your infantile analogies to yourself, please. The analogies are perfectly apt. A pro-life person who hasn't adopted is no more hypocritical than someone who is against pet overpopulation not operating a shelter in their backyard. So you must be a hypocrite, too, or pm your address and I'll send you a check to help feed all the stray animals you're keeping in your backyard. but what can you expect from a guy with an infant smoking a cigarette for an avatar? Ouch! Zinger alert! Zinger alert!-Paul
...............................

paul young
07-23-2010, 01:13 PM
saying you look like a fool with your actions is not the same as calling you a fool. "like" is the key operative word here. get it? you look "like" one, not saying you are one.

but thats your style, play the victim and try to make me look like the bully when you lose the debate.

cheerio chap


make no mistake about it, you ARE a bully.-Paul

subroc
07-23-2010, 01:17 PM
It is absolutely wrong for one person to tell another that she must have a baby.

It is absolutely wrong to abort a third term viable fetus...

david gibson
07-23-2010, 01:23 PM
make no mistake about it, you ARE a bully.-Paul

only weak spirited persons think so. those with cajones that "never take a backward step" can stand toe to toe with me.

gman0046
07-23-2010, 01:25 PM
In the first place, can anyone tell us why the U.S. Taxpayers should be paying anything for Kenyan abortions. Other then the fact we have a Kenyan president who has relatives in Kenya.

paul young
07-23-2010, 01:25 PM
...............................

really, there are no children waiting to be adopted? why do i hear radio ads and see ads on TV urging people to adopt children who don't exist?

my point may be repugnant (your words) but i am perfectly ok with spending tax dollars to fund care for the ones waiting to adopted, whereas the "conservatives" don't want their assets taxed and money spent to deal with the problem at any level. abstinence has been the rallying cry for decades. guess what? it isn't working. that campaign is just a waste of tax dollars. the problem continues.

and to your last point, if you wish to compare human life to unwanted pets, be my guest.-Paul

paul young
07-23-2010, 01:27 PM
only weak spirited persons think so. those with cajones that "never take a backward step" can stand toe to toe with me.

hey if you want to emulate a criminal, go ahead. i meant what i said. you have many, many bullying posts behind you.-Paul

Hew
07-23-2010, 02:14 PM
really, there are no children waiting to be adopted? why do i hear radio ads and see ads on TV urging people to adopt children who don't exist?
Your original point was that unwanted babies go unadopted. That's not true. Mothers who give their children up for adoption almost always do so early (at birth and on up to two years of age). There are literally lines of people waiting to adopt those children and there is more demand than there are available children (hence domestic adoption costs average $20k to $30k for the adoptive parents). The vast majority of children in foster care are legally unadoptable (i.e. parental rights have not been relinquished by the biological parents or severed by the courts...a process that for better or worse, can take years). Often, because the legal process has dragged on for so long, by the time a child in foster care is legally adoptable they are at an age that makes them difficult to place or they have suffered such tragedy and psychological damage that not many people have the financial/emotional wherewithal to adopt them. By and large, those are the children you hear advertised on radio and TV; not as you contended, little babies whose mother's were pressured into giving birth by pro-life zealots only to have the pro-life zealots turn their backs on the babies.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 02:51 PM
hey if you want to emulate a criminal, go ahead. i meant what i said. you have many, many bullying posts behind you.-Paul

and just how does one be a bully on the internet? by espousing their political views in a protagonistic manner? oh the horrors i am guilty of! who shall cast the first stone? you? like CA said, if you cant take a bruise or two get out of the mosh pit.

bullying can only exist if another allows himself to be bullied. just because you cant keep up with a debate doesnt mean you are being bullied. wait - in your case it probably does.

peace out my friend, the last word is yours.

luvmylabs23139
07-23-2010, 04:06 PM
JMO as someone who is more libratarian than dem or rep. If you play you pay.
If you chooose to have an abortion pay for it. If you choose to have the kid pay for it.
Do not expect me to help fund your abortion, Do not expect me to fund the cost of raising your child. You chose to have sex. You pay either way.
I know both sides will flame me so go ahead.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 04:14 PM
JMO as someone who is more libratarian than dem or rep. If you play you pay.
If you chooose to have an abortion pay for it. If you choose to have the kid pay for it.
Do not expect me to help fund your abortion, Do not expect me to fund the cost of raising your child. You chose to have sex. You pay either way.
I know both sides will flame me so go ahead.

funny how so few can see the logic of balance here - being responsible for yourself and your actions.

but i am sure that it's not the fault of the poor kid teen that is pregnant, its our fault somehow. parenting is a lost art in some circles.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 04:29 PM
keep your infantile analogies to yourself, please. but what can you expect from a guy with an infant smoking a cigarette for an avatar?-Paul

this has got to be one of the funniest things i have ever read on the internet! paul really believes that if you are pro-life you must adopt a child, and if you have a baby smoking a cigarette in your avatar you must think its ok for infants to smoke. no room for any sense of humor there eh paul?

Hoosier
07-23-2010, 04:44 PM
Actually, my wife and I have spent the last 7 months trying to adopt. We were trying to adopt a 5 year old, but the system seen fit to return her to her heroin addict parents. She has spent all but about 6 months of her life in foster care, and the case worker believes there is a near 100% chance she'll be back. The last time she was taken was after her father ODed in front of her in a Wal Mart bathroom.

cotts135
07-23-2010, 07:01 PM
funny how so few can see the logic of balance here - being responsible for yourself and your actions.

but i am sure that it's not the fault of the poor kid teen that is pregnant, its our fault somehow. parenting is a lost art in some circles.

And there lies the problem. Conservatives on a whole but especially neo conservatives have had that mantra drilled into them from who knows how long,most people agree with it myself included, News flash here guys, there are plenty of hard working responsible people who through know fault of their own have fallen on hard times. No need to tell you how tough it is to get a decent job today and the ones that find them are extremely lucky. I know of at least 4 couples who are in this predicament and what has happend in each of these cases is that both take jobs that are barely above minimum wage and are now really struggling to make ends meet. You guys want to make it all about the ghetto mom with multiple children who smokes cigarettes and buys lottery tickets. It makes a good visual but it is not truly representative of the total problem

luvmylabs23139
07-23-2010, 07:33 PM
And there lies the problem. Conservatives on a whole but especially neo conservatives have had that mantra drilled into them from who knows how long,most people agree with it myself included, News flash here guys, there are plenty of hard working responsible people who through know fault of their own have fallen on hard times. No need to tell you how tough it is to get a decent job today and the ones that find them are extremely lucky. I know of at least 4 couples who are in this predicament and what has happend in each of these cases is that both take jobs that are barely above minimum wage and are now really struggling to make ends meet. You guys want to make it all about the ghetto mom with multiple children who smokes cigarettes and buys lottery tickets. It makes a good visual but it is not truly representative of the total problem

Maybe, but if you have lived the life of working hard to pay for your condo, and then your tax dollars are paying for Babymommy to live below you and across from you, it a differnet attitude. When the music blasting keeps you up till all hours and then when you get ready to leave for work (mon-fri 8-5)
your car is blocked in by babymommas car which happens to be brand new that is illegally parked well what would your attitude be?
When you can't water your window box flowers, because it may spill water on BABYMOMMA"S ILLEGAL laundry drying on the railing below you and your flowers are dying because BABYMAMMA (that your paying for ) is breaking the rules, what would you do?
When you go to walk your "legal" dog in the morning before work and are confronted in the common hallway with th "PIT" that is protecting the latest shipment during a snowstorm and you just want to walk you dog before braving the storm to go to work and the shipper is staying at BABYMOMMAS and tells you better watch out or my dog (the PIT) will tear yours up, what do you do.

YardleyLabs
07-23-2010, 07:51 PM
It is absolutely wrong to abort a third term viable fetus...
And it is illegal to perform an abortion on a viable fetus. Additionally, health professionals are required legally to take all necessary action to save the life of a viable fetus.

Captain Mike D
07-23-2010, 08:47 PM
it appears we have a sizable contingent of pro-life folks here.

who among you have adopted children?-Paul

May not have adopted any, but I damn sure made sure that the one I was responsible for has SURVIVED for 28 years on this planet and has gotten all I could afford to give, including a dad that taught him how to hunt, and play baseball as well as how to behave as a human.

It is called responsibilty!! WTF is so hard about that other than devoting your life for something YOU created instead of throwing it in the trash.

I'll leave that answer for you to determine-- but meanwhile SHOVE IT!

Done

kb27_99
07-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Abortion rights in Kenya are none of my business. Abortion rights here are. I remember the period before abortions were legalized too well to ever want to see us return there. I'm not sure when a fetus becomes a person. I don't believe it is a person when it is 64 cells big, but it certainly felt pretty bad when my wife miscarried at four months -- not as bad as losing a child, but pretty darn close. I have sat with people that were close to me as they decided whether to proceed or not with a pregnancy that was not desired. I have also sat with them following whatever decision they made. None of those decisions was easy and I do not believe that government will improve the decisions by becoming involved. I certainly don't think that applying a religious standard through the law to override a woman's ability to make such personal decisions about her body makes any sense at all.

Jeff not that I agree with you, I can respect your opinion. But I have a question. I have read several times you justify it by not wanting to tell a woman what to do with her body. That’s true to an extent. What about the other piece of the puzzle, the father! Considering they are in a relationship (not that it matters), does the contributing male not have a say so in your eyes to have or abort a child?

JDogger
07-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Maybe, but if you have lived the life of working hard to pay for your condo, and then your tax dollars are paying for Babymommy to live below you and across from you, it a differnet attitude. When the music blasting keeps you up till all hours and then when you get ready to leave for work (mon-fri 8-5)
your car is blocked in by babymommas car which happens to be brand new that is illegally parked well what would your attitude be?
When you can't water your window box flowers, because it may spill water on BABYMOMMA"S ILLEGAL laundry drying on the railing below you and your flowers are dying because BABYMAMMA (that your paying for ) is breaking the rules, what would you do?
When you go to walk your "legal" dog in the morning before work and are confronted in the common hallway with th "PIT" that is protecting the latest shipment during a snowstorm and you just want to walk you dog before braving the storm to go to work and the shipper is staying at BABYMOMMAS and tells you better watch out or my dog (the PIT) will tear yours up, what do you do.

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from. On the main forum you post about having multiple labs, one a PIA.
Do you really live in rent-subsidized semi-ghetto condo with window-box flowers, and babymomma all around, with multiple labs?
Sounds hellish. :rolleyes:

I guess you could just pick up and move regards, JD

david gibson
07-23-2010, 09:24 PM
May not have adopted any, but I damn sure made sure that the one I was responsible for has SURVIVED for 28 years on this planet and has gotten all I could afford to give, including a dad that taught him how to hunt, and play baseball as well as how to behave as a human.

It is called responsibilty!! WTF is so hard about that other than devoting your life for something YOU created instead of throwing it in the trash.

I'll leave that answer for you to determine-- but meanwhile SHOVE IT!

Done

this has to be about the harshest statement i have ever heard on PP.

and the most truthful.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 09:41 PM
I'm not quite sure where you're coming from. On the main forum you post about having multiple labs, one a PIA.
Do you really live in rent-subsidized semi-ghetto condo with window-box flowers, and babymomma all around, with multiple labs?
Sounds hellish. :rolleyes:

I guess you could just pick up and move regards, JD

claasssssy response, yup. thats a gem there for the archives. nice display of sensitivity from one who points fingers at insensitivity all around.

Hoosier
07-23-2010, 09:49 PM
claasssssy response, yup. thats a gem there for the archives. nice display of sensitivity from one who points fingers at insensitivity all around.

I believe she has also said her and her husband have since WORKED their way out of that situation.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 10:01 PM
I believe she has also said her and her husband have since WORKED their way out of that situation.

now thats a novel idea. bet the liberals havent thought of that one. they believe entitlements are forever....:rolleyes:

JDogger
07-23-2010, 10:04 PM
claasssssy response, yup. thats a gem there for the archives. nice display of sensitivity from one who points fingers at insensitivity all around.

When did I claim I suffered from sensitivity. Au contraire, mon ami. Play the game, play it tough, never take a backward step. Sound familiar?

I'm your huckleberry...regards, JD :p

luvmylabs23139
07-23-2010, 10:13 PM
I'm not quite sure where you're coming from. On the main forum you post about having multiple labs, one a PIA.
Do you really live in rent-subsidized semi-ghetto condo with window-box flowers, and babymomma all around, with multiple labs?
Sounds hellish. :rolleyes:

I guess you could just pick up and move regards, JD

Currently I live in a very nice 4000 sq ft house on 4 acres that DH and I own and we currently have 4 labrador retrievers. Who among the four is the PIA can change from day to day. The PIA post was because after 5 years of being an Angel he's suddenly a brat. Most likely the main issue is the weather, so lack if exercise and daily training.
DH bought a condo, prior to marriage in CT. THe condo market tanked (actually he bought near the bottom)
When he bought the complex had FHA status. Soon after the purchase and our wedding the complex lost FHA status. This was due to investors who bought up the foreclosures. Owner occupancy ratio. MOst rented section 8 because you were guaranteed most of your rent money and in CT it took forever to evict a non paying tenant. Some people went as far as burning their places to the ground when the courts would not evict, removing toilets etc did not work. The deadbeat tenant had at least a year of no payment before an eviction could take place.
I never lived in rent subsidized housing, I did live in a condo that we payed the mortgage on that became surrounded by rent subsdized housing. The unit across (common hallway) and below us both became section 8. We were the OWNERS of our unit before section 8 surrounded us.
I had one labrador (my MIckey Mouse) prior to marriage and we were a package deal. So when I got married both Mickey and I moved into what was fast becoming the getto.

DH didn't buy into the getto.The getto came to us along with babymomma and pitbulls protecting drug shipments.

david gibson
07-23-2010, 10:16 PM
When did I claim I suffered from sensitivity. Au contraire, mon ami. Play the game, play it tough, never take a backward step. Sound familiar?

I'm your huckleberry...regards, JD :p

yeah but i tone it down for a soul that has tried to procreate but nature wont comply and they also cant cut thru the red tape and get the adoption services to do the same....when all the while some feel it proper and acceptable for the govt to use our tax dollars to help others abort and throw the same precious commodity into the trash.

but i dont expect you to see the difference. no huckleberry needed regards......

charly_t
07-23-2010, 10:36 PM
Your original point was that unwanted babies go unadopted. That's not true. Mothers who give their children up for adoption almost always do so early (at birth and on up to two years of age). There are literally lines of people waiting to adopt those children and there is more demand than there are available children (hence domestic adoption costs average $20k to $30k for the adoptive parents). The vast majority of children in foster care are legally unadoptable (i.e. parental rights have not been relinquished by the biological parents or severed by the courts...a process that for better or worse, can take years). Often, because the legal process has dragged on for so long, by the time a child in foster care is legally adoptable they are at an age that makes them difficult to place or they have suffered such tragedy and psychological damage that not many people have the financial/emotional wherewithal to adopt them. By and large, those are the children you hear advertised on radio and TV; not as you contended, little babies whose mother's were pressured into giving birth by pro-life zealots only to have the pro-life zealots turn their backs on the babies.

This is such a good, factual, honest post.........anyone should be able to understand it.

luvmylabs23139
07-23-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm not quite sure where you're coming from. On the main forum you post about having multiple labs, one a PIA.
Do you really live in rent-subsidized semi-ghetto condo with window-box flowers, and babymomma all around, with multiple labs?
Sounds hellish. :rolleyes:

I guess you could just pick up and move regards, JD

YO, I have 4 labs, I do not live in the getto today.
DH and I owned one lab and one condo 15 years ago. The condo was not in the geeto when dh bought it. The gov't and section 8 brought the getto to us!!!
Wonderful use of my tax dollars! I told the waste below me that once very loudly!!!!:grin: That was right after I watered my plants in a manner that would splash the most dirt on her ILLEGAL laundry.
She was not very happy and decided bang on my door with an ILLEGAL gun in her hand.
MIckey retrieved it for me and well one less slimeball neighbor.
She went to jail!

JDogger
07-23-2010, 11:11 PM
Currently I live in a very nice 4000 sq ft house on 4 acres that DH and I own and we currently have 4 labrador retrievers. Who among the four is the PIA can change from day to day. The PIA post was because after 5 years of being an Angel he's suddenly a brat. Most likely the main issue is the weather, so lack if exercise and daily training.
DH bought a condo, prior to marriage in CT. THe condo market tanked (actually he bought near the bottom)
When he bought the complex had FHA status. Soon after the purchase and our wedding the complex lost FHA status. This was due to investors who bought up the foreclosures. Owner occupancy ratio. MOst rented section 8 because you were guaranteed most of your rent money and in CT it took forever to evict a non paying tenant. Some people went as far as burning their places to the ground when the courts would not evict, removing toilets etc did not work. The deadbeat tenant had at least a year of no payment before an eviction could take place.
I never lived in rent subsidized housing, I did live in a condo that we payed the mortgage on that became surrounded by rent subsdized housing. The unit across (common hallway) and below us both became section 8. We were the OWNERS of our unit before section 8 surrounded us.
I had one labrador (my MIckey Mouse) prior to marriage and we were a package deal. So when I got married both Mickey and I moved into what was fast becoming the getto.

DH didn't buy into the getto.The getto came to us along with babymomma and pitbulls protecting drug shipments.

A clear, somewhat succinct answer that I thank you for. I am happy that you moved past your personal situation.

Happy for the dogs too. Four acres...Grin.:)


Might you now, try to move past your philosophical situations as well...
The neighbors you had, are probably no better or worse than the neighbors that we've all had/or have. You've moved on, physically...now try to move on philosophically and politically as well.

Our country is changing, demographically, socially, politically. Take a walk around your local Walmart, if you doubt it.

It is not 1955 or 1965 anymore. And it won't be again. All tea-parties to the the contrary.

It's not the fault of administrations or parties...it just is...and no longing for the way things were, will bring them back.

I'm tired, G'night. JD

YardleyLabs
07-24-2010, 05:09 AM
Jeff not that I agree with you, I can respect your opinion. But I have a question. I have read several times you justify it by not wanting to tell a woman what to do with her body. Thatís true to an extent. What about the other piece of the puzzle, the father! Considering they are in a relationship (not that it matters), does the contributing male not have a say so in your eyes to have or abort a child?
When writing my post, I considered putting that in. Obviously the father is an interested party, but no, I don't think that gives him a say in the woman's choice. I feel the same about the girl's parents as long as the girl is old enough to exercise judgment in making decisions about her body (I'm not sure exactly when that is, since it varies by person, but would generally think 15 or 16). Obviously, the potential baby being carried is an interested party as well but, in my view that interest is best represented by the mother, not the government.

I cannot imagine deciding to abort a fetus that was mine. But the individuals I know who have gone through that decision felt the same way. The decisions were not easy and the persons making them suffered both at that time and over the years that followed from the decisions they made. I have never known anyone for whom it was an easy decision. I know such people exist, however, and I hope they never have children. Sadly, I have had the "opportunity" to see some of the consequences of illegal abortions. The worst was a baby whose mother dunked him in a pot of boiling water because he kept screaming and then peed in her face as she changed his diapers. Both legs and his privates had to be amputated and he spent a year in the hospital having new surgeries every couple of months to remove scar tissue as it built up so that the rest of his body could grow. At a much less extreme level, I had a relative sent home by an illegal abortionist. She was in pain and began to hemorrhage. Things got cleaned up, more or less, but the damage done to her reproductive system weas sufficient thatit took 12 years of trying for her to become pregnant again once she wanted to. She herself viewed that as being possibly what she deserved for the decision she had made. However, even then she would have made the same decision again.

The fact that there are good people who want to adopt children and are more than willing to help out financially and in any other way may be a reason that some girls/women decide to go through with a pregnancy rather than have an abortion. However, it is not a reason for compelling them to do so.

A number of states have passed laws requiring counseling for women seeking abortions. The only problem with that, is that I think those laws should require the same types of counseling for women who become pregnant and do not choose to have abortions. Having a child is a massive responsibility. Personally, I think government should leave it to the individuals involved since I don't want governments have ever demonstrated any particular competence at making reproductive decisiosn. If it is going to become involved, make sure it becomes involved in a balanced manner, Make sure that those who are pregnant understand their options (all of them) and understand the types of assistance they may be able to obtain, if needed, to ensure proper prenatal care, nutrition, and care for the child following birth.

YardleyLabs
07-24-2010, 06:35 AM
only weak spirited persons think so. those with cajones that "never take a backward step" can stand toe to toe with me.
When I was growing up, my father taught me a few lessons about fighting.
First, if I ever fought a person who was not bigger and stronger and able to beat me, I was a coward.
Second, all fights go through stages, but the fight is started by the first person who throws a punch. Until then, it's just a matter of negotiation.
Third, if I started a fight with someone bigger and stronger, I shouldn't expect any help from him or others when I started to lose. He emphasized this particular lesson by locking the door once when I tried to run home to escape a beating.Three other things I learned indirectly as a result of his teachings: how to take a beating, how to have an argument without fighting, and how to fight dirty. I have spent much of my life dealing with bullies, and my father's lesson stick with me still. I don't back down, I don't swing the first punch, and if the other guy does, I will do anything I need to and sleep well afterward. One of the problems with America now is that we have started thinking it's OK to be the bully. This shows up in schoolyard fights where groups of kids gang up on their victim, and in our foreign policy. For my part, I still think only cowards are bullies.

david gibson
07-24-2010, 03:20 PM
When I was growing up, my father taught me a few lessons about fighting.
First, if I ever fought a person who was not bigger and stronger and able to beat me, I was a coward.
Second, all fights go through stages, but the fight is started by the first person who throws a punch. Until then, it's just a matter of negotiation.
Third, if I started a fight with someone bigger and stronger, I shouldn't expect any help from him or others when I started to lose. He emphasized this particular lesson by locking the door once when I tried to run home to escape a beating.Three other things I learned indirectly as a result of his teachings: how to take a beating, how to have an argument without fighting, and how to fight dirty. I have spent much of my life dealing with bullies, and my father's lesson stick with me still. I don't back down, I don't swing the first punch, and if the other guy does, I will do anything I need to and sleep well afterward. One of the problems with America now is that we have started thinking it's OK to be the bully really? just started? that would mean obama thinks its ok to be a bully. he can only bully around his administration, he could never be a bully or a hero on the global stage. This shows up in schoolyard fights where groups of kids gang up on their victim, and in our foreign policy. so americas bullying around the world has caused kids to beat up other kids in schoolyards? really? i didnt know 10 yr olds followed any political events, much less foreign affairs....For my part, I still think only cowards are bullies.


another dumb saying you believe that has no merit. mike tyson by all means is a bully. so that makes him a coward? yeah, you tell him that.....lol

ok, so by your logic America has been a coward?? with obama in charge i will grant you that. but if you think we were being bullies with Bush but were also cowards, well, your logic aint so great. and was Reagan a bully when he brought the USSR to its knees? what a cowardly act that was! classic act of being a bully, going halfway around the world and telling another country what to do.

obama apologized for americas actions before he got in to office. we certainly are not bullies right now. so we must have been bullies and cowards with Bush.


yeah, right. there you go again! you say such ignorant things i would put you on "ignore" but i just get such a kick out your insane lefty logic.

gman0046
07-24-2010, 04:17 PM
Yo, Yardley, give it up guy. Your getting far too riled up with your B.S.

Leddyman
07-24-2010, 08:35 PM
It is absolutely wrong for one person to tell another that she must have a baby.

You see? No one tied any woman down and implanted her with a baby! That would be telling them they had to have a baby.

These women got the baby on their own with the help of a male of the species presumably. Nobody told her she had to have a baby! SHE HAS A BAY ALREADY BY HER OWN ACTIONS AND YOU WANT TO HELP HER KILL IT!

If you can't see that brother no one can help you.

Leddyman
07-24-2010, 08:39 PM
In health class, didn't anyone ever point out the fallibility of all birth control techniques? Abstinence has proven itself repeatedly to be the most fallible.:rolleyes:

More BS from you, abstinence is 100% effective.

kb27_99
07-24-2010, 08:57 PM
More BS from you, abstinence is 100% effective.

Give it up Leddyman, debating with Jeff is like debating with a fence post. He is the most closed minded person I have had the privilege of talking to on line or in person. Not an attack, just an observation.

YardleyLabs
07-24-2010, 09:04 PM
More BS from you, abstinence is 100% effective.
Show me the teen or young adult that succeeds at it. The only abstinence strategies have been proven effective at is helping to increase the teen and unwed pregnancy rate throughout the Bible belt. Abstinence is preached, but not practiced. In addition, a fair number of those pregnancies did not result from a voluntary decision on the part of the female. There is a lot more involuntary sex than ever shows up in the rape statistics.

The fact is that the sex life and reproductive choices of other people are none of you business, any more than your sex life and decisions are any business of theirs. Under our laws, with which I agree, a non-viable fetus is not deemed to be a human being from a legal perspective. If the energy now focused on interfering with other people's sex lives were re-channeled to ending hunger, a lot more children and adults would be saved than are now lost to abortion.

kb27_99
07-24-2010, 09:08 PM
Show me the teen or young adult that succeeds at it. The only abstinence strategies have been proven effective at is helping to increase the teen and unwed pregnancy rate throughout the Bible belt. Abstinence is preached, but not practiced. In addition, a fair number of those pregnancies did not result from a voluntary decision on the part of the female. There is a lot more involuntary sex than ever shows up in the rape statistics.



So now you are saying that there should be no consequences for our actions. Nice Jeff ;-)

YardleyLabs
07-24-2010, 09:16 PM
So now you are saying that there should be no consequences for our actions. Nice Jeff ;-)
It seems to me that there are lots of consequences not matter how the pie is cut. However, I don't see any reason whatsoever for the government to be sticking its nose into the role of consequence enforcer for sex. For people who complain so often about big government, I don't understand how you reconcile a desire for smaller government with dictating such private matters in the lives of our citizens.

kb27_99
07-24-2010, 09:24 PM
It seems to me that there are lots of consequences not matter how the pie is cut. However, I don't see any reason whatsoever for the government to be sticking its nose into the role of consequence enforcer for sex. For people who complain so often about big government, I don't understand how you reconcile a desire for smaller government with dictating such private matters in the lives of our citizens.

Where did I mention government Jeff? I believe abortion should be illegal period. Some of us still believe a child is a gift from God, death is a calling from God, and he will not give us more than we can handle. Don't comment, I already know what youíre thinking.

Franco
07-24-2010, 09:37 PM
Show me the teen or young adult that succeeds at it. The only abstinence strategies have been proven effective at is helping to increase the teen and unwed pregnancy rate throughout the Bible belt. Abstinence is preached, but not practiced. In addition, a fair number of those pregnancies did not result from a voluntary decision on the part of the female. There is a lot more involuntary sex than ever shows up in the rape statistics.

The fact is that the sex life and reproductive choices of other people are none of you business, any more than your sex life and decisions are any business of theirs. Under our laws, with which I agree, a non-viable fetus is not deemed to be a human being from a legal perspective. If the energy now focused on interfering with other people's sex lives were re-channeled to ending hunger, a lot more children and adults would be saved than are now lost to abortion.

I agree.

Abstinence is an unrealistic pipe dream.

Here is the real world, we know teaching /preaching abstinence doesn't work.

And yes, the government is too big and it doesn't need to get involved beyond the Supreme Court.

gman0046
07-25-2010, 10:37 AM
Again I ask the question. Why should America care what Kenyans do? Who cares if the want procreate like warthogs? It's their problem not ours. Our Kenyan president saw fit to send them 23 million dollars for abortions. Why other then he's a Kenyan by birth.

YardleyLabs
07-25-2010, 11:21 AM
Where did I mention government Jeff? I believe abortion should be illegal period. Some of us still believe a child is a gift from God, death is a calling from God, and he will not give us more than we can handle. Don't comment, I already know what youíre thinking.
I'd say that definitely qualifies as the government sticking its nose in reproduction decisions. To do it based on your rationale also involves government sticking its nose into religion -- imposing yours on all who disagree. I have my own philosophical beliefs, which involve no concept of a god. However, I too would have difficulty opting for an abortion. But why should my beliefs force the same decision on others? It is their choice, not mine, and not yours. If you are right in your beliefs, those who choose badly will literally have "hell to pay" as a consequence.

david gibson
07-25-2010, 01:30 PM
I'd say that definitely qualifies as the government sticking its nose in reproduction decisions. To do it based on your rationale also involves government sticking its nose into religion -- imposing yours on all who disagree. I have my own philosophical beliefs, which involve no concept of a god. However, I too would have difficulty opting for an abortion. But why should my beliefs force the same decision on others? It is their choice, not mine, and not yours. If you are right in your beliefs, those who choose badly will literally have "hell to pay" as a consequence.

i can fully go with that, but the question is - should tax dollars cover it?

YardleyLabs
07-25-2010, 01:44 PM
i can fully go with that, but the question is - should tax dollars cover it?
I actually question whether tax dollars should cover any costs associated with reproduction -- whether for child birth, birth control, reproductive aids (Viagra, or fertility treatments), or abortions. Certainly in my mind, payment for normal child birth and payment for abortions fall into similar categories. Both are the result of choices made by the insured. However, failure to pay for child birth related costs would result in reduced use of prenatal services, thereby increasing the likelihood of infant and maternal health problems that are likely to end up costing more. Payment for abortions is also cost beneficial since it costs dramatically than costs paid by the public for child birth and child care. From that perspective, payment for both makes economic sense if you separate the question from political and religious trappings.