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ducknwork
08-04-2010, 11:19 AM
This one kinda has me scratching my head a bit. I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say about it...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/03/congressman-calls-execution-wikileaks-whistleblower/

YardleyLabs
08-04-2010, 11:42 AM
This one kinda has me scratching my head a bit. I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say about it...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/03/congressman-calls-execution-wikileaks-whistleblower/
I think it's a little overkill.

Clay Rogers
08-04-2010, 11:46 AM
If his actions caused American troops to be harmed, then, Yes, he should get the death penalty. That is treason in a time of war, punishable by death, according to UCMJ. If the stuff he leaked was classified, but useless to our enemy, then life in prison without parole.

Clay Rogers
08-04-2010, 11:52 AM
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl106a.htm Here's a link that might better explain it all.

ducknwork
08-04-2010, 01:16 PM
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl106a.htm Here's a link that might better explain it all.

That pretty much 'splains it!

Although, I think life in prison would be much better. For a few reasons.

Franco
08-04-2010, 01:30 PM
Execution makes a bigger statement of justice than life in prison. Want to be future traitors would have to think twice before committing such an act.

Roger Perry
08-04-2010, 02:18 PM
Execution makes a bigger statement of justice than life in prison. Want to be future traitors would have to think twice before committing such an act.

I am not against the death penalty, but how has the death penalty stopped people from killing other people?

dnf777
08-04-2010, 02:20 PM
In theory, I'm for the death penalty. Given the number of people exonerated with DNA evidence lately, I'm not so sure I'm for it in our current system.

Clay Rogers
08-04-2010, 02:26 PM
That pretty much 'splains it!

Although, I think life in prison would be much better. For a few reasons.


Why? And not looking to debate over death penalty. Would just like to know your thoughts as to why life in prison is better. I think he should be executed. It doesn't matter to me why he did it, the fact is he did it. When we put on the uniform, we are informed that we are held to higher standard than other americans, not saying that is right, just how it is. He knew what his punishment would be if he got caught. The only way to make sure this type of stuff doesn't happen everyday is to make example out of him, under the letter of UCMJ. If everyone on that court martial panel finds him guilty, death is the only punishment. These are just my thoughts on it, not what will happen or what has to happen.

Clay Rogers
08-04-2010, 02:31 PM
I am not against the death penalty, but how has the death penalty stopped people from killing other people?

Because they know they will sit on death row 25 years. No fear there. If, when someone commits murder, rape or some other terrible crime that is punishable by death, they received their punishment then, it might stop some of it.

Clay Rogers
08-04-2010, 02:36 PM
In theory, I'm for the death penalty. Given the number of people exonerated with DNA evidence lately, I'm not so sure I'm for it in our current system.


Agree 100%.

finkomania
08-04-2010, 02:39 PM
No comment.

dnf777
08-04-2010, 03:38 PM
I'll be more supportive of the death penalty, when I can be assured there are no more Mike Nifongs out there serving as district attorneys. (remember Duke lacrosse?)

Tsangster
08-04-2010, 04:08 PM
I am not against the death penalty, but how has the death penalty stopped people from killing other people?

Pretty much prevents repeat offenders.

ducknwork
08-05-2010, 06:27 AM
Pretty much prevents repeat offenders.

As would locking them up forever without parole and endless appeals at taxpayer expense.

ducknwork
08-05-2010, 06:33 AM
Why? And not looking to debate over death penalty. Would just like to know your thoughts as to why life in prison is better. I think he should be executed. It doesn't matter to me why he did it, the fact is he did it. When we put on the uniform, we are informed that we are held to higher standard than other americans, not saying that is right, just how it is. He knew what his punishment would be if he got caught. The only way to make sure this type of stuff doesn't happen everyday is to make example out of him, under the letter of UCMJ. If everyone on that court martial panel finds him guilty, death is the only punishment. These are just my thoughts on it, not what will happen or what has to happen.

Everyone in prison knows what he did. Just like when someone goes to prison for killing a kid or something else that even the scum of the earth frown upon. Put him with the general population, not in some isolated cell for his own safety.:rolleyes: Things will take care of themselves. I am sure that someone will bring up the cost to taxpayers of housing inmates forever...Easy one...no tv, no weight room, no ac, no nice meals--just enough to keep them alive. Guess what buddy...you're in prison. It's not supposed to be fun.

Also, I have a moral objection to the death penalty. That whole eye for an eye thing is like, what, 3 millenias ago?;)

Not that his crime doesn't deserve the death penalty, I'm just not for the whole killing people thing.

subroc
08-05-2010, 06:35 AM
probably a valid punishment for treason. the reason is unimportant. the act is the issue.

I expect we will find some nefarious media whore behind the whole thing and the private will and should pay with his life.

I expect those in the media that published the articles should pay as well.

road kill
08-05-2010, 06:45 AM
Everyone in prison knows what he did. Just like when someone goes to prison for killing a kid or something else that even the scum of the earth frown upon. Put him with the general population, not in some isolated cell for his own safety.:rolleyes: Things will take care of themselves. I am sure that someone will bring up the cost to taxpayers of housing inmates forever...Easy one...no tv, no weight room, no ac, no nice meals--just enough to keep them alive. Guess what buddy...you're in prison. It's not supposed to be fun.

Also, I have a moral objection to the death penalty. That whole eye for an eye thing is like, what, 3 millenias ago?;)

Not that his crime doesn't deserve the death penalty, I'm just not for the whole killing people thing.


Really?
How do you feel about anyone that may have lost their lives due to this ASS-KLOWN giving away military secrets?

Just askin.........



RK

YardleyLabs
08-05-2010, 07:05 AM
Really?
How do you feel about anyone that may have lost their lives due to this ASS-KLOWN giving away military secrets?

Just askin.........



RK
This is a false comparison. We don't have things like due process to protect criminals. We have those things because it is important for us, the innocent, to act in a fair and moral manner. A murderer is a murderer. However, when we execute someone, we become murderers also.

I have mixed feeling about the death penalty. There is nothing that can make me feel comfortable with a cold-blooded killing by the state long after the crime has become history.

If we were able to be certain about guilt and could prove a deterrent value, I might be willing to accept what is clearly an immoral act -- the execution -- as a justifiable evil. But the truth is that we cannot be certain about guilt. We've been proven wrong too many times. And we have no evidence of a deterrent effect greater than life imprisonment without parole.

What we do know is that it is much more expensive to manage people who are sentenced to death than it is to simply keep them imprisoned for life. Obviously one reason is because of the length of the appeals process. However, all those appeals routinely result in sentences and convictions being overturned, adding to questions about the certainty of the initial conviction.

road kill
08-05-2010, 07:12 AM
This is a false comparison. We don't have things like due process to protect criminals. We have those things because it is important for us, the innocent, to act in a fair and moral manner. A murderer is a murderer. However, when we execute someone, we become murderers also.

I have mixed feeling about the death penalty. There is nothing that can make me feel comfortable with a cold-blooded killing by the state long after the crime has become history.

If we were able to be certain about guilt and could prove a deterrent value, I might be willing to accept what is clearly an immoral act -- the execution -- as a justifiable evil. But the truth is that we cannot be certain about guilt. We've been proven wrong too many times. And we have no evidence of a deterrent effect greater than life imprisonment without parole.

What we do know is that it is much more expensive to manage people who are sentenced to death than it is to simply keep them imprisoned for life. Obviously one reason is because of the length of the appeals process. However, all those appeals routinely result in sentences and convictions being overturned, adding to questions about the certainty of the initial conviction.
Your opinion.......:rolleyes:


This guy is not judged under your law or any civil law.
He is under the UCMJ.

Very harsh sentences can be meeted out.
If not execution, hard labor.
Neither are pretty.


RK

precisionlabradors
08-05-2010, 08:29 AM
I am sure that someone will bring up the cost to taxpayers of housing inmates forever....


it's cheaper to house a criminal for life than to put him to death.
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precisionlabradors
08-05-2010, 08:32 AM
can anyone explain the nature of the leaks and how they might lead to soldier deaths? or is it speculation?
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YardleyLabs
08-05-2010, 08:48 AM
Based on the UCMJ definitions linked by stumpholelunter, the hurdle is pretty high for the death penalty. First, it would need to be shown that a leak to Wikileaks, which conducted its own review to try to weed out information that might threaten lives (allegedly including asking the US government to review the material also), constitutes a direct or indirect leak to one of the following:



(2) An entity referred to in paragraph (1) is—


(A) a foreign government;


(B) a faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States; or

(C) a representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen of such a government, faction, party, or force.


Second, there would have to be a unanimous finding that one of the following aggravating conditions was met and outweighs any mitigating considerations:




(1) The accused has been convicted of another offense involving espionage or treason for which either a sentence of death or imprisonment for life was authorized by statute.


(2) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of substantial damage to the national security.
(3) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.
(4) Any other factor that may be prescribed by the President by regulations under section 836 of this title (Article 36).
So far, I have not seen anything identified that put soldiers in harm's way. Although having access to thousands of incident reports might provide insight into tactical approaches followed, I don't know if that rises to the levels specified.

Regardless of whether or not the offense rises to the level warranting capital punishment, which I doubt, a soldier deliberately stealing and releasing tens of thousands of classified documents is arguably guilty of both espionage and treason. He is certainly guilty of gross insubordination and dereliction of duty. I see no reason for leniency in sentencing.

ducknwork
08-05-2010, 09:02 AM
Really?
How do you feel about anyone that may have lost their lives due to this ASS-KLOWN giving away military secrets?

Just askin.........



RK

In no way did I imply that his crime was not a very, very serious offense. It is such. I think that it should be punished very severely.

However, under no circumstances can I support the death penalty. It just goes against what I believe to be right. I am not at all saying that some people don't deserve it for what they did. I'm just saying that killing someone is not right, regardless of whether it is a criminal or a prison worker doing the killing.

dnf777
08-05-2010, 09:08 AM
In no way did I imply that his crime was not a very, very serious offense. It is such. I think that it should be punished very severely.

However, under no circumstances can I support the death penalty. It just goes against what I believe to be right. I am not at all saying that some people don't deserve it for what they did. I'm just saying that killing someone is not right, regardless of whether it is a criminal or a prison worker doing the killing.

that's a very respectable position. I am always somewhat at a loss when people decry abortion as "killing is wrong, and against God", but then support the gas chamber and are pro-war.

In this particular case, if one death of a US soldier can be indisputably linked to this man's blatant actions, then I would not shed a tear for him on his day of reckoning.

ducknwork
08-05-2010, 09:19 AM
that's a very respectable position. I am always somewhat at a loss when people decry abortion as "killing is wrong, and against God", but then support the gas chamber and are pro-war.



Consistency, baby!:D

Eric Johnson
08-05-2010, 09:44 AM
I have a sense that the troop got some bad advice from and was egged on by civilians, civilians who are older and who should be more mature than he. They would not be subject to the UCMJ death penalty. I'd hate for him to be sentenced to death and then these civilians get a slap on the wrist.

Life in prison is available to all parties. Let that be what the prosecutors aim for.

Eric

Clay Rogers
08-05-2010, 09:54 AM
Duck, didn't mean for you to get blasted by the masses. I respect your opinion and views on the death penalty. As I said before, I agree with dnf, I am on the fence with it myself. On one hand, if someone killed my wife or kids, I would demand the death penalty, or at least make sure it happens myself:cool:. But on the other hand, what if it was my relative that was facing the death penalty and after the punishment was handed out, he/she was cleared through DNA or just plain old evidence. No getting him/her back, their dead. All the sorry in the world doesn't make up for it.

You know, if we as a group respected others right to their opinion, we might not have so much sh!t going on in this forum. We call people names for having a different opinion than ours, when, if you get right down to it, that is what America is all about, different people with different views able to get along and make things work. I am just as guilty as anyone, so not throwing stones, just saying.

sorry to highjack your thread duck

Clay Rogers
08-05-2010, 09:58 AM
I have a sense that the troop got some bad advice from and was egged on by civilians, civilians who are older and who should be more mature than he. They would not be subject to the UCMJ death penalty. I'd hate for him to be sentenced to death and then these civilians get a slap on the wrist.

Life in prison is available to all parties. Let that be what the prosecutors aim for.

Eric

This guy will never see the death penalty. As I said before, if one troop was harmed in anyway, then I think he should be put to death by firing squad. My opinion and my opinion only.(That is just the old soldier in me)

But the whole thing can be stopped by the commander in chief no matter what the convening body says. And we know President Obama will not let that happen.

YardleyLabs
08-05-2010, 10:44 AM
There were three executions of Federal prisoners under Bush -- the last in 2003. The most recent execution prior to that was under Kennedy. The last people executed for espionage were the Rosebergs. (http://www.bop.gov/about/history/execchart.jsp)

ducknwork
08-05-2010, 10:57 AM
This guy will never see the death penalty. As I said before, if one troop was harmed in anyway, then I think he should be put to death by firing squad. My opinion and my opinion only.(That is just the old soldier in me)

But the whole thing can be stopped by the commander in chief no matter what the convening body says. And we know President Obama will not let that happen.

Don't worry about hijacking the thread. I am enjoying a good discussion on something different for a change.

They could always skip the jail time or death penalty and redeploy him. I have a feeling that things would take care of themselves.

road kill
08-05-2010, 11:02 AM
that's a very respectable position. I am always somewhat at a loss when people decry abortion as "killing is wrong, and against God", but then support the gas chamber and are pro-war.

In this particular case, if one death of a US soldier can be indisputably linked to this man's blatant actions, then I would not shed a tear for him on his day of reckoning.

Babies are innocent, murderers, rapist, child molesters and those who commit treason are not.

Glad to be of help.:rolleyes:




RK

road kill
08-05-2010, 11:03 AM
This guy will never see the death penalty. As I said before, if one troop was harmed in anyway, then I think he should be put to death by firing squad. My opinion and my opinion only.(That is just the old soldier in me)

But the whole thing can be stopped by the commander in chief no matter what the convening body says. And we know President Obama will not let that happen.
He can also be given hard labor at Leavenworth, a fate some think worse than death.



RK

Hew
08-05-2010, 11:52 AM
can anyone explain the nature of the leaks and how they might lead to soldier deaths? or is it speculation?
I don't know much about what specifically he has leaked that directly resulted in harm/potential harm to our people. I did read that he named Afghanis who were helping us and that the Taliban now have all the names and have sworn to kill them (as I understand it, there's a lot of names). I would suspect that would make most Afghanis a little wary about stepping forward in the future. Supposedly most IEDs that are discovered before they can kill any Americans are discovered because a friendly Afghan tipped our guys off to their locations. I would guess that type of assistance will get rarer and I would further guess that that will result in dead Americans.

precisionlabradors
08-05-2010, 12:05 PM
I don't know much about what specifically he has leaked that directly resulted in harm/potential harm to our people. I did read that he named Afghanis who were helping us and that the Taliban now have all the names and have sworn to kill them (as I understand it, there's a lot of names). I would suspect that would make most Afghanis a little wary about stepping forward in the future. Supposedly most IEDs that are discovered before they can kill any Americans are discovered because a friendly Afghan tipped our guys off to their locations. I would guess that type of assistance will get rarer and I would further guess that that will result in dead Americans.

thanks hew. yeah, that's pretty messed up. i wonder what that soldier's motive was.
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Clay Rogers
08-05-2010, 01:22 PM
He can also be given hard labor at Leavenworth, a fate some think worse than death.



RK

That will probably be his punishment. Like I said, he deserves to die if any troops are hurt, american or our allies. I for one would volunteer to pull the trigger.

ducknwork
08-05-2010, 01:35 PM
He can also be given hard labor at Leavenworth, a fate some think worse than death.



RK

Making big rocks into little rocks, huh?

dnf777
08-05-2010, 01:39 PM
I don't know much about what specifically he has leaked that directly resulted in harm/potential harm to our people. I did read that he named Afghanis who were helping us and that the Taliban now have all the names and have sworn to kill them (as I understand it, there's a lot of names). I would suspect that would make most Afghanis a little wary about stepping forward in the future. Supposedly most IEDs that are discovered before they can kill any Americans are discovered because a friendly Afghan tipped our guys off to their locations. I would guess that type of assistance will get rarer and I would further guess that that will result in dead Americans.


If that's true, and it certainly sounds plausible, then this guy undid a LOT of progress, that came at a painstaking price. It takes all day to set up the dominoes, and only one boneheaded slip to make it all for naught. I bet by now, this guy wishes he hadn't done that.

kb27_99
08-05-2010, 01:47 PM
In no way did I imply that his crime was not a very, very serious offense. It is such. I think that it should be punished very severely.

However, under no circumstances can I support the death penalty. It just goes against what I believe to be right. I am not at all saying that some people don't deserve it for what they did. I'm just saying that killing someone is not right, regardless of whether it is a criminal or a prison worker doing the killing.


I am with you; I don't believe we should kill our own species. I believe they should have a chance. If found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for a crime that deserves death we should lock them in a cage with a grizzly, mountain lion, or any other fierce animal. There's your second chance.

precisionlabradors
08-05-2010, 04:05 PM
Babies are innocent,



RK

then why baptize them? lol. sorry....couldnt' resist.
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Hew
08-05-2010, 04:19 PM
If that's true, and it certainly sounds plausible, then this guy undid a LOT of progress, that came at a painstaking price. It takes all day to set up the dominoes, and only one boneheaded slip to make it all for naught. I bet by now, this guy wishes he hadn't done that.
Here's a Newsweek article about it. Looks like they've already killed one tribal elder and have a bunch more in their sights. Per the Taliban "intelligence" goon in the article:


“The impact of this should be good for us and a slap in the face to those who are working with America,” he says. “America is not a good protector of spies.”

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/02/taliban-seeks-vengeance-in-wake-of-wikileaks.html

Cody Covey
08-05-2010, 05:31 PM
then why baptize them? lol. sorry....couldnt' resist.
I always wondered that haha

Leddyman
08-05-2010, 07:31 PM
There were also line by line transcripts of actions taken during combat operations. They reveal the tactics and communication that took place during ambushes and other combat operations. This information makes it easier for the enemy to anticipate and respond to our combat tactics also endangering American lives.

It is kind of like giving the playbook to the other team before a game. This guy deserves to die (along with that little blonde simpering idiot that runs Wikileaks). What Hew said was right on the money. Plain and simple some American soldiers aren't coming home because this asswipe wanted whatever he wanted for leaking those secret documents. Not to mention the Afghani blood soon to be shed over the outing of the ones who gave information to U.S. Forces.

Hew I read the article you linked to. Newsweek makes me sick. "While it is unknown whether any of the men were indeed named in the WikiLeaks documents, it’s clear the Taliban believes they have been cooperating with Western forces and the Afghan government." So Newsweek is trying to downplay the responsibility of Wikileaks in the monstrous, hideous consequences of the leak.

makes me want to puke.