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Gerry Clinchy
08-05-2010, 09:03 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/nyregion/05hunter.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th


As has happened at other prestigious city high schools that use only a test for admission, the black and Hispanic population at Hunter has fallen in recent years. In 1995, the entering seventh-grade class was 12 percent black and 6 percent Hispanic, according to state data. This past year, it was 3 percent black and 1 percent Hispanic; the balance was 47 percent Asian and 41 percent white, with the other 8 percent of students identifying themselves as multiracial. The public school system as a whole is 70 percent black and Hispanic.

I think it's kind of interesting that the % of Asians in the public school system is not even mentioned ... but they represent the largest single ethnic group at this prestigious high school; even outnumbering white students.

The dispute seems to be about the very difficult admissions test for which many students "prepare" with special classes and tutoring. Obviously, those advantages would be more limited for students of lesser financial means. The high percentage of Asian students may also indicate a high level of student (or parental) motivation to get into one of the best high schools.

I know I'm too simplistic, but it seems that the solution is not to lower the standards of the testing, but to offer the preparation and tutoring to students who may not otherwise have the financial means to have those advantages.

Other studies, I believe, have indicated that school performance is greatly influenced by parents and home environment, i.e. placing value on education and providing the child with the environment at home to make the most of the education available in school.

YardleyLabs
08-06-2010, 06:26 AM
There are no easy answers concerning how to structure admissions for a program specifically designed to promote academic excellence. The results at Hunter are the predictable result of a test based process for young adolescents. What the story doesn't mention, but what is also predictable, is that 53% of students are female and 47% are male. It is an unfortunate reality that the one thing predicted best by standardized tests is performance on standardized tests. It is correlated with IQ, since that is also a standardized test. It is much less correlated with success following school. It is also less correlated with academic performance. Standardized tests overweight prior academic and cultural experience. They underweight creativity, drive, courage, style, and all those other things besides marking that we value in our dogs in competition. Some of the pre-prep advantages can be reduced by offering preparatory classes for everyone. Other things can only be addressed by considering factors other than standardized tests.

dnf777
08-06-2010, 06:42 AM
Other studies, I believe, have indicated that school performance is greatly influenced by parents and home environment, i.e. placing value on education and providing the child with the environment at home to make the most of the education available in school.


Amen! (but that assumes there's parents at home....that's where it falls apart in many communities) Its a rare child who pulls himself out of the gutters without any support....and my hat is off to them. I knew a kid from the Houston ghetto who got an appointment to the USAFA, and never looked back.

Gerry Clinchy
08-06-2010, 08:18 AM
No doubt about it. Long ago there was a similar furor about the SAT tests for getting into good colleges. The college I went to placed value on extra-curricular activities, as well as the SAT scores ... but you still needed to perform well on the SATs as well.

If you read the article, it mentions that the teachers would expand the admissions process to include interviews, etc. OTOH, there should be some "shining stars" to aspire to for students who can excel.

I tend to disagree with the student's speech ... none of the graduates should feel guilty for working hard to get into the school; none should feel guilty for working hard to get to their graduation. And, if they are gifted, they should not feel guilty, they should just thank God (or fate, as their religion or lack thereof would lead them) that they have the ability to do something positive in their world. Maybe the student should feel "responsible" (not guilty) to bring more opportunity to those who could use it.

Marvin S
08-16-2010, 10:46 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/nyregion/05hunter.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th



I think it's kind of interesting that the % of Asians in the public school system is not even mentioned ... but they represent the largest single ethnic group at this prestigious high school; even outnumbering white students.

The dispute seems to be about the very difficult admissions test for which many students "prepare" with special classes and tutoring. Obviously, those advantages would be more limited for students of lesser financial means. The high percentage of Asian students may also indicate a high level of student (or parental) motivation to get into one of the best high schools.

I know I'm too simplistic, but it seems that the solution is not to lower the standards of the testing, but to offer the preparation and tutoring to students who may not otherwise have the financial means to have those advantages.

Other studies, I believe, have indicated that school performance is greatly influenced by parents and home environment, i.e. placing value on education and providing the child with the environment at home to make the most of the education available in school.

Good post!


There are no easy answers concerning how to structure admissions for a program specifically designed to promote academic excellence. The results at Hunter are the predictable result of a test based process for young adolescents. What the story doesn't mention, but what is also predictable, is that 53% of students are female and 47% are male. It is an unfortunate reality that the one thing predicted best by standardized tests is performance on standardized tests. It is correlated with IQ, since that is also a standardized test. It is much less correlated with success following school. It is also less correlated with academic performance. Standardized tests overweight prior academic and cultural experience. They underweight creativity, drive, courage, style, and all those other things besides marking that we value in our dogs in competition. Some of the pre-prep advantages can be reduced by offering preparatory classes for everyone. Other things can only be addressed by considering factors other than standardized tests.

You are full of HOYA - HOYA, but we all know that. What you post is pure BS - & I know from personal experience.

YardleyLabs
08-16-2010, 11:40 AM
...


You are full of HOYA - HOYA, but we all know that. What you post is pure BS - & I know from personal experience.
So you are arguing that the only basis for academic admissions should be standardized tests even if that means, as it does, that white males will be severely underrepresented in the admitted population? Do you really believe that standardized tests are either that good or that objective?

What is "HOYA"?

Always glad to see that your posts are as fact-filled and erudite as always when you write for yourself.:rolleyes:

dnf777
08-16-2010, 11:47 AM
There are no easy answers concerning how to structure admissions for a program specifically designed to promote academic excellence. The results at Hunter are the predictable result of a test based process for young adolescents. What the story doesn't mention, but what is also predictable, is that 53% of students are female and 47% are male. It is an unfortunate reality that the one thing predicted best by standardized tests is performance on standardized tests. It is correlated with IQ, since that is also a standardized test. It is much less correlated with success following school. It is also less correlated with academic performance. Standardized tests overweight prior academic and cultural experience. They underweight creativity, drive, courage, style, and all those other things besides marking that we value in our dogs in competition. Some of the pre-prep advantages can be reduced by offering preparatory classes for everyone. Other things can only be addressed by considering factors other than standardized tests.

I know that American medical schools are beginning to de-emphasize standardized test scores such as the MCAT. (some have been doing so for some time) The result is a more diversified, well-rounded matriculant, who brings diverse life experiences to the exam room. I'm sure many on this list would prefer the types of docs who have duck-mounts on their walls and DU prints in their waiting rooms, that purely Asian females who barely speak english or nerdy pencil necks who have spare pocket protectors for when thiers wear out.

Before I have to don my flame suit, the reference to Asian females is because they consistently have the highest MCAT scores of everyone, and many have English as a second language. My personal physician is an asian female, and also happens to be my wife, so I assure you, that was not a racist comment. As for the pencil-necked geek with pocket protectors....let them be the first to speak up!

Cody Covey
08-16-2010, 02:35 PM
I know that American medical schools are beginning to de-emphasize standardized test scores such as the MCAT. (some have been doing so for some time) The result is a more diversified, well-rounded matriculant, who brings diverse life experiences to the exam room. I'm sure many on this list would prefer the types of docs who have duck-mounts on their walls and DU prints in their waiting rooms, that purely Asian females who barely speak english or nerdy pencil necks who have spare pocket protectors for when thiers wear out.

Before I have to don my flame suit, the reference to Asian females is because they consistently have the highest MCAT scores of everyone, and many have English as a second language. My personal physician is an asian female, and also happens to be my wife, so I assure you, that was not a racist comment. As for the pencil-necked geek with pocket protectors....let them be the first to speak up!
Yeah Dave and my best friend is black :)


I kid I kid

Marvin S
08-16-2010, 04:35 PM
There are no easy answers concerning how to structure admissions for a program specifically designed to promote academic excellence. The results at Hunter are the predictable result of a test based process for young adolescents. What the story doesn't mention, but what is also predictable, is that 53% of students are female and 47% are male. It is an unfortunate reality that the one thing predicted best by standardized tests is performance on standardized tests. It is correlated with IQ, since that is also a standardized test. It is much less correlated with success following school. It is also less correlated with academic performance. Standardized tests overweight prior academic and cultural experience. They underweight creativity, drive, courage, style, and all those other things besides marking that we value in our dogs in competition. Some of the pre-prep advantages can be reduced by offering preparatory classes for everyone. Other things can only be addressed by considering factors other than standardized tests.


I like this post, and I have no idea what the hell HOYA means.
Walt

There was a point in time when cognitive ability was measured. Not having read the new tests, but from Jeff's verbosity I would gather prep time is more important than unhoned skills. My personal experiences disagree with his post.

In SD in the late 40's they gave a statewide Iq test to about 10,000 high school seniors. Because of the results the education establishment stopped that :). The services at that time also gave the AGCT test which was a good indicator of inherent skill.

As for skills attributable to nationality, I would venture it to be a culture effect. School is boring to the inquisitive mind, mostly so for boys more than girls. My High School coach discussed the mediocre job done educating boys even as far back as the 40's.

At one time I planned to fund a scholarship at the college where I had gotten my education. They have done away with testing to measure those skills a student enters with, so have no way to measure except the grades a student receives in HS. Which I guess would be OK were it not for the variables that go into HS students grades.

There actually is a way to prepare for those tests, it's called paying attention & read a lot of good books.

Hew
08-16-2010, 05:07 PM
I know that American medical schools are beginning to de-emphasize standardized test scores such as the MCAT. (some have been doing so for some time) The result is a more diversified, well-rounded matriculant, who brings diverse life experiences to the exam room.
Yes, that's what I want in a doctor...diverse life experiences! Because when you get right down to it, it is indeed way more better to have an ER doc who once lived in a mud hut and can weave a wicker basket with his feet working to save your live than to have one who he aced his MCAT and finished third in his med school class. Having never taken the MCAT I'm guessing for it to be culturally biased that there most be multiple versions of scientific fact. You know...the atomic weight of carbon dioxide is different for a Vandy med school student than for a student at the University of Calcutta. Or the appropriate name for an upper leg bone is a femur if you were unlucky enough to go to a Western school but calling it dinner is appropriate if you went to the University of Tanzania.

dnf777
08-16-2010, 05:13 PM
Yes, that's what I want in a doctor...diverse life experiences! Because when you get right down to it, it is indeed way more better to have an ER doc who once lived in a mud hut and can weave a wicker basket with his feet working to save your live than to have one who he aced his MCAT and finished third in his med school class. Having never taken the MCAT I'm guessing for it to be culturally biased that there most be multiple versions of scientific fact. You know...the atomic weight of carbon dioxide is different for a Vandy med school student than for a student at the University of Calcutta. Or the appropriate name for an upper leg bone is a femur if you were unlucky enough to go to a Western school but calling it dinner is appropriate if you went to the University of Tanzania.

yeah, and Dalton weights of inorganic molecules is something I use every day. Nice racist reply though. Diversity automatically applies to cannibals and savages in your world, doesn't it? I was referring to more "good ol' boys" who don't, on average score as well as many foreign students who present themselves for application. Or are you the pencil-necked geek who felt the need to speak up like I predicted?

gman0046
08-16-2010, 05:47 PM
Yardley Hoya is what you post. I guess you know what NABMLA is.

YardleyLabs
08-16-2010, 06:01 PM
Yes, that's what I want in a doctor...diverse life experiences! Because when you get right down to it, it is indeed way more better to have an ER doc who once lived in a mud hut and can weave a wicker basket with his feet working to save your live than to have one who he aced his MCAT and finished third in his med school class. Having never taken the MCAT I'm guessing for it to be culturally biased that there most be multiple versions of scientific fact. You know...the atomic weight of carbon dioxide is different for a Vandy med school student than for a student at the University of Calcutta. Or the appropriate name for an upper leg bone is a femur if you were unlucky enough to go to a Western school but calling it dinner is appropriate if you went to the University of Tanzania.
I learned an early lesson in the importance of cultural education and sensitivity for doctors. In the 1970's the Young Lords (Brown Panthers) occupied the Lincoln Hospital in the South Bronx demanding better services for the poor. Without going into the many issues that were involved, physician recruitment and supervision was turned over to the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, an outstanding institution. They recruited nationwide to find liberal young doctors to be resident at the hospital. When they arrived, all those good liberals formed a physicians commune dedicated to medicine for the people. They shed their white jackets, donning jeans and t-shirts to evidence their solidarity with the people. What they failed to notice was that "the people" wore their Sunday best to come to the hospital. The brought their families and they were careful to pay what they were able. When the doctors showed up in their jeans, the "people" felt deeply insulted since it was obvious to them that the doctors lacked any respect for their patients. Why else would the dress so poorly?

The best doctor is the one who can not only treat a defined problem, but can find out what is wrong by getting the patient to open up. The best doctor is not the one who prescribes the correct medication, but gets their patients to take it. The most serious medical problems we face have no medical mystery associated with them.

When I was fresh out of graduate school, the Commissioner of Health wanted to create a program he called HEAT -- hypertension evaluation and treatment. Rather than launch a major program, I suggested a small pilot. We implemented the pilot and found a disturbing incidence of uncontrolled hypertension. The problem was that 95% of those found to be uncontrolled hypertensives were under active care of a physician. The program never went beyond the pilot stage. Instead we focused more efforts on ensuring that physicians prescribed appropriate care for their hypertensive patients (at that time, 40% prescribed inappropriate care) and focused more efforts on projects to evaluate better ways to ensure patient compliance.

gman0046
08-16-2010, 06:07 PM
Great post Goodwin. Whats it mean?

M&K's Retrievers
08-16-2010, 06:17 PM
I learned an early lesson in the importance of cultural education and sensitivity for doctors. In the 1970's the Young Lords (Brown Panthers) occupied the Lincoln Hospital in the South Bronx demanding better services for the poor. Without going into the many issues that were involved, physician recruitment and supervision was turned over to the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, an outstanding institution. They recruited nationwide to find liberal young doctors to be resident at the hospital. When they arrived, all those good liberals formed a physicians commune dedicated to medicine for the people. They shed their white jackets, donning jeans and t-shirts to evidence their solidarity with the people. What they failed to notice was that "the people" wore their Sunday best to come to the hospital. The brought their families and they were careful to pay what they were able. When the doctors showed up in their jeans, the "people" felt deeply insulted since it was obvious to them that the doctors lacked any respect for their patients. Why else would the dress so poorly?

The best doctor is the one who can not only treat a defined problem, but can find out what is wrong by getting the patient to open up. The best doctor is not the one who prescribes the correct medication, but gets their patients to take it. The most serious medical problems we face have no medical mystery associated with them.

When I was fresh out of graduate school, the Commissioner of Health wanted to create a program he called HEAT -- hypertension evaluation and treatment. Rather than launch a major program, I suggested a small pilot. We implemented the pilot and found a disturbing incidence of uncontrolled hypertension. The problem was that 95% of those found to be uncontrolled hypertensives were under active care of a physician. The program never went beyond the pilot stage. Instead we focused more efforts on ensuring that physicians prescribed appropriate care for their hypertensive patients (at that time, 40% prescribed inappropriate care) and focused more efforts on projects to evaluate better ways to ensure patient compliance.

Gee, I would have thought that small pilots would have been in good shape, not overweight, have annual physicals, etc. and not likely to have hypertension.:rolleyes:

Just wanted you to know that I read all your posts.:cool:

YardleyLabs
08-16-2010, 06:31 PM
Great post Goodwin. Whats it mean?
What it means is that the qualities that make a good doctor depend significantly on things other than medical science. Communication skills, cultural understanding of and sensitivity to your patients, etc., directly affect your ability to provide sound medical care. Those traits should clearly be part of the criteria used in selecting candidates for medical school and should also be considered when deciding who might be better suited for primary care and who might be better suited for pathology.

M&K's Retrievers
08-16-2010, 06:34 PM
What it means is that the qualities that make a good doctor depend significantly on things other than medical science. Communication skills, cultural understanding of and sensitivity to your patients, etc., directly affect your ability to provide sound medical care. Those traits should clearly be part of the criteria used in selecting candidates for medical school and should also be considered when deciding who might be better suited for primary care and who might be better suited for pathology.

You can probably throw that out with Obama Care.:(

YardleyLabs
08-16-2010, 06:39 PM
You can probably throw that out with Obama Care.:(
We don't need to wait for Obamacare to see the effects of "managed" care. We see it now with most health insurance. Visits are shorter. Patients who present with multiple problems are likely to only have one problem addressed at a time -- sometimes by different doctors -- because of the limited amount of time available during a single visit. However, some things may be getting better. Increasingly, group practices evaluate physicians based on their success in getting patients to make concrete improvements in their health status such as to reduce blood pressure or lose weight.

Hew
08-16-2010, 10:16 PM
yeah, and Dalton weights of inorganic molecules is something I use every day. Nice racist reply though. I guess I should have referred to the University of Calcutta student as Ali Babba like you have in the past referred to someone from India as. Because that's so not racist. Diversity automatically applies to cannibals and savages in your world, doesn't it? I was referring to more "good ol' boys" who don't, on average score as well as many foreign students who present themselves for application. Thanks, Tiger, but I knew what you meant. I'd prefer the doctor who had the best training and education; regardless of ethnicity. And sure as hell regardless of whatever nonsensical notion of diversity that you have. Or are you the pencil-necked geek who felt the need to speak up like I predicted? LOL. I've seen your picture. Do you really want to go there? Really?
..................

M&K's Retrievers
08-16-2010, 11:28 PM
We don't need to wait for Obamacare to see the effects of "managed" care. We see it now with most health insurance. Visits are shorter. Patients who present with multiple problems are likely to only have one problem addressed at a time -- sometimes by different doctors -- because of the limited amount of time available during a single visit. However, some things may be getting better. Increasingly, group practices evaluate physicians based on their success in getting patients to make concrete improvements in their health status such as to reduce blood pressure or lose weight.

Managed care has only increased the cost of health care not improve delivery or reduce the cost.