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Paul Rainbolt
08-06-2010, 10:38 PM
How's the weather?

Kevin Eskam
08-06-2010, 10:53 PM
It was Hot and really hot for Judy Aycock who recieved a couple ribbons,, One was a pretty blue for a QAA 1st place, I dont know the others but Larry Howell recieved a reserve Jam... I think Judy was 4rth too with Ed As doggy.

Tom Watson
08-07-2010, 12:31 AM
It was warm, but without the oppressive humidity we have in Texas. In fact, very pleasant in the shade. 45 back to the Open land blind on Sat morning. Sorry the numbers are downstairs in the Tahoe. Nice folks here in Colorado.

BonMallari
08-07-2010, 10:47 AM
description of this morning's land blind relayed by someone who is there:

approx 400yds behind a knoll when the dog is released you lose sight of the dog for almost the first 75yds. the handler is allowed to walk/run/sprint some 30-40 yds up the hill to get sight of the dog...there is also a bird boy off to one side sitting on some bird crates that fires a dry pop...test dog # 2 is running , Test dog # 1 was picked up

BonMallari
08-07-2010, 11:26 AM
the test is running pretty quick...Nola was the 8th dog to run and she did the blind in 4 whistles...at this pace they should get through this by noon

Bayou Magic
08-07-2010, 01:46 PM
Any open callback numbers?

Jiggy
08-07-2010, 03:08 PM
Open callbacks to 3rd:
3,11,14,15,16,23,26,29,33,35,36,45,46,57,58,60,62, 66,67,
68,69,70,75,80

Second hand...

LukesMom
08-07-2010, 03:15 PM
Anyone? Qual results?

EdA
08-07-2010, 03:21 PM
Anyone? Qual results?
1st Trumarc's Gymnast 2nd win, O Judy A & Sylvia M H Judy
2nd ?
3rd ?
4th Trumac's Tubby Two O Ed A H Judy A
sorry that's all I know

BonMallari
08-07-2010, 04:50 PM
Open callbacks to 3rd:
3,11,14,15,16,23,26,29,33,35,36,45,46,57,58,60,62, 66,67,
68,69,70,75,80

Second hand...

3rd series is a water blind with a poison bird...my source has not seen the test because he has opted to stay out of the summer heat and stay in the confines of an air conditioned RV :p:p

Blackdog
08-07-2010, 06:35 PM
My understanding of the Open water blind is that 2 poison birds were used, one place on the ground Without the dog seeing it and a second hand thrown with a shot. Unless I am mistaken, the rule was changed a couple of years ago making it illegal to have a poison bird on the ground without the dog having an opportunity to see it. It was changed to avoid penalizing a dog for honoring its noise.

Any comments appreciated!

Paul Rainbolt
08-07-2010, 08:38 PM
My understanding of the Open water blind is that 2 poison birds were used, one place on the ground Without the dog seeing it and a second hand thrown with a shot. Unless I am mistaken, the rule was changed a couple of years ago making it illegal to have a poison bird on the ground without the dog having an opportunity to see it. It was changed to avoid penalizing a dog for honoring its noise.

Any comments appreciated!

There have been extensive debate on the subject. You are correct Blackdog, planted poison bird blind is against the rules. What is not against the rules is giving the handler the order in which a double blind is to be picked up.

Honor the nose on blind retrieves = smells bird and gose out of control on a blind retrieve (MHO of course).

Jim Pickering
08-07-2010, 08:38 PM
My understanding of the Open water blind is that 2 poison birds were used, one place on the ground Without the dog seeing it and a second hand thrown with a shot. Unless I am mistaken, the rule was changed a couple of years ago making it illegal to have a poison bird on the ground without the dog having an opportunity to see it. It was changed to avoid penalizing a dog for honoring its noise.

Any comments appreciated!

Under the SOR's micro management philosophy the recent rule change that makes the test as described illegal is:

A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two)
may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only
if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/are thrown or shot
so that the running dog has a clear view of each such
diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot. No bird which
the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden
on the general path to a blind. Nothing in this provision
precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged
birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or
bird throwers as diversions from the blind.

Hopefully the test description was faulty or something lost in translation.

Blackdog
08-07-2010, 08:50 PM
Thanks, Jim. You are right on target as usual. If it is as described, The test should be scrapped and started over in the morning regardless of a complaint! All participatants are entitled to run under retriever standards.

Ted Shih
08-07-2010, 08:58 PM
The following facts were reported to me:

1) A bird was laid on the ground near the tip of a point as a poison bird.
2) A bird was thrown short of that bird as a poison bird.

I watched another judge do this at a trial last year, and decided that if I ever threw a poison bird on a water blind, I would follow this practice.

Why?

1) The location of the poison bird is the same for everyone.
2) There is no issue of one dog getting a short throw (which favors the dog)
as opposed to a long throw (which favors the judge)
3) This is a particularly useful where you are not running under the arc, but necessary to one side of the bird (here a water blind where dogs need to get on the tip of the point, but outside of the poison bird

I didn't see the blind, but the concept makes sense to me

Jiggy
08-07-2010, 09:04 PM
Open callbacks to 4th:
3- Player/Eckett
26-Cha Cha/Schoonover
29-Arson/Trott
33-Pride/Eckett
57-Ollie/Trott
58-Gracie/McClure
66-Rosie/Trott
69-Player/Eckett
75-Zoom/Eckett

Watermarks tomorrow morning.

Derby 3rd series going tomorrow morning.

Amateur water blind starting tomorrow morning.

Blackdog
08-07-2010, 10:10 PM
I would agree on the concept of having birds that dogs must handle away from regardless of sight. I judged an Open about 3 or 4 years ago, and had several poison birds on the ground at the same time. It was legal at the time, but the FACTS REMAINDS that this test is illegal NOW. I know both judges personally and know them to be good men.

It is not a legal test TODAY, and it should be scrapped or waived. There were 24 dogs going into the water blind and only 9 brought back. I heard that 3 of the first 6 dogs picked up the poison bird, its not the rules we contest under NOW, and regardless of feeling about quality of test, something should be done. I don't like the rule, as I placed birds on the ground many times in AA competition as a judge, but its not legal anymore!

iTrain
08-07-2010, 10:47 PM
FYI Blackdog:
Handlers were asked if anyone objected to the test, ( accurately described by Ted), and all were in favor. Same bird's for everyone!

Tim West
08-08-2010, 12:38 AM
Ted, how much room was there from the bird thrown from the bird placed on the ground? As I see it the test is illegal as the rules go. The problem I would have using today's rules is if a dog marked the poison bird as being short and then was surprised by the poison bird because it was not in the same place as the one thrown. A distance of five yards could make a difference. If its a few feet it's a different story.

I don't much like the new rule anyway, but if its a rule, you should use it.

Blackdog
08-08-2010, 12:43 AM
Its not the handlers responisbitity to determine and decide upon the test. Do you believe for one minute that if a handler objected to the test or filed a protest that he or she would be carried to the next series?

The responsibilty rest with the judges and the field trail committee, not the handlers.

Our society is governed by rules, regulations, Standards, and law. We follow them, or pay the price. If you don’t like them, they should be change by the Standard process, not a person that decides to go 75 MPH in a 50 zone because they like the concept! We are not Cave People anymore; we live by the existing LAWS that govern us, same as Field Trials. I’m not a fan of this rule, but I honor it.

Do you want to drive 8 hours and not know what rules you compete under? Enough, they can correct it, are let it ride! If I was the judge or filed trial committee, I would not lay another egg… as the says goes.

Ted Shih
08-08-2010, 12:56 AM
Ted, how much room was there from the bird thrown from the bird placed on the ground? As I see it the test is illegal as the rules go. The problem I would have using today's rules is if a dog marked the poison bird as being short and then was surprised by the poison bird because it was not in the same place as the one thrown. A distance of five yards could make a difference. If its a few feet it's a different story.

I don't much like the new rule anyway, but if its a rule, you should use it.



I was told a few feet.

As either a contestant or a judge, I would rather have two birds on the ground with the most dangerous one placed the same for all, than one bird on the ground with the placement varying from dog to dog.

But, that's just me.

DeWitt Boice
08-08-2010, 02:07 AM
I ran the test
the bird was thrown at the line to the blind
the bird was thrown to the bird on the ground
sometimes short, never long
The rule is to keep people from placeing birds to trick the running dog
this was nether a trick or a suprise

EdA
08-08-2010, 08:44 AM
IMO the test as described does not violate the rule or the spirit of the rule, the judges exposed all the dogs to the same hazard in the exact same place, it was a known location to everyone unlike a random bird in the field whose location was not precisely known by all handlers

Ted Shih
08-08-2010, 09:11 AM
Ahhh, the joys of the internet

Someone who was not there
Someone who has not identified himself/herself
Throws two poor people, who have sacrificed four - or more - days of their lives to judge in the heat,

Under the bus
As the trial is going on

No wonder people are so eager to judge

Blackdog
08-08-2010, 12:07 PM
Does this mean that the rule Jim Pickering quoted is wrong? Does this mean that contestants can or should expect test contrary to the standard? Does this mean that because the handlers new the bird’s location the dogs did also? Does this mean that you can place 12 birds on the ground and throw a poison bird in the middle of the pile? What about the 14 dogs eliminated, where the eliminated dogs tested fairly? Could one of them be the ultimate winner, and the contestants that drove for hours to compete, do they have any remorse for their elimination? Maybe one of them would be the ultimate winner?

If reported correctly, and a complaint filed with the AKC, should championship points be voided? I know both judges and they are fine men, but none of us is God. We make mistakes and we should try to corrected them and learn from them.

If 2 poison birds were used as reported and the dog only had the chance to see one regardless of its placement it’s a violation and it’s not supposed to happen!

Yes thank you for the internet, it can afford us the opportunity to correct mistakes rather the perpetuate them! And yes, I have spent my share time behind the judge’s book, and its work, cold, rain, and heat! It’s not only the judge’s responsibility, but it’s also the Field Trial Committees to insure rules are followed.

This is not about personalities; there enough subjectivity in this sport already. Judges are hard to find, but there is no doubt in my mind that judging makes you a better competitor and handler.

Ted Shih
08-08-2010, 12:25 PM
It means that if you are going to go after someone on the internet, you ought to have the courage to identify yourself.

Blackdog
08-08-2010, 12:34 PM
No one is going after anyone here, and Ted you know who I am. I just don't want to make this personal. Its just like the rule we are debating, if your name is required to post, it should be part of the rule. Face it, everone knows who we are on here.

None of that changes the facts of the Trial.

Davis Dautreuil

Ted Shih
08-08-2010, 12:58 PM
Davis

First, I don't think that what the judges did is illegal.

Second, if I had a concern at a FT about a rule violation, I would mention to the marshal and then make my own decisions about whether to file a protest, scratch my dogs, or run anyway.

Third, I think it is wrong to identify specific judges (which was done here by mentioning trial and stake) and then take them to task on the internet.

If you had a concern, then you could post a hypothetical scenario and people could jump in with their opinions. But, instead, you and others choose to provide information concerning a specific trial and stake, and then criticize the judges' decisions. By doing so, I think you make it personal.

I think that is bad for the sport.

That's just my opinion.

Jiggy
08-08-2010, 01:15 PM
Getting back on track...

Amateur callbacks to water marks:
2-pepper/Homburg
7-Buffy/Aycock
13-Cha Cha/Schoonover
15-Pacer/Boice
22-Kate/Baumer
24-Gracie/McClure
27-Woody/Morgan
28-Angus/Jensen
33-Holland/Aycock
40-DJ/Morgan
50-Pard/Clow

Open watermarks almost done. 7 have run, two have done it without a handle.

Blackdog
08-08-2010, 02:04 PM
When a public assignment is accepted, there is accountability. Insofar as the forum to debate it, this is one of the reasons for RTF. Everyone is entitled to their opinion; you know the old says…… In life we gain and grow from our experiences and mistakes. Judging makes you a better field trailer! Putting on a trial makes you appreciate the work effort and the need for fairness. Certainly any discrimination was not forethought.

Back to the trial, and best of luck to all remaining contestants!

Jiggy
08-08-2010, 03:00 PM
Open results:
1st-Arson/Trott ( new FC)
2nd:Pride/Eckett
3rd: Rosie/Trott
4th: Zoom/ Eckett
RJAM: Ollie/Trott
JAMS:
Cha Cha/Schoonover
Player/Eckett

Congrats everyone!

sinner
08-08-2010, 05:08 PM
Way to go HorseTooth.
I attempted to run the water blind and had to come for the AM. I watched two dogs pick up one of the poison birds (cant say if they got the thrown poison bird or the placed poison bird)If you got there after the test started you did not know where the placed bird was (no marker) my own error for not requesting the thrower walk out and show me. I just missed handed my dog and he went almost to the direct line of the blind over the point but inside the tree which you had to be. When I stopped him and casted him he went in front of the tree and just to the left and I was out (a matter of 12 inches).
Judges were trying to be fair to all. My only comment would be to have marked the placed bird for all but I made the mistake of not requesting they show me exactly where it was.
Was it legal? Worth a protest? never thought about until I read all of this.

Jiggy
08-08-2010, 06:04 PM
Derby results:
1st: Rylee/McCartney
2nd: Kate/Roberts
3rd: Denali/McCann
4th: Turq/ Trott
RJAM: Marti/Harris
JAMS:
Coke/Aston
Push/Milligan
Cutter/McCann

Amateur:
1st: Buffy/Aycock
2nd: DJ/Lori Morgan
3rd: ??/Larry Morgan
4th: Angus/Jensen

I don't know JAMs...sorry.

Congrats everyone!!!

Melanie Foster
08-08-2010, 06:08 PM
Thanks for posting, Marcy!

Bobby Lindsay
08-08-2010, 06:44 PM
Congrats to Jim, Joe and Kate on the Derby second. Another 3 points!

Philip Carson
08-08-2010, 08:38 PM
So,how about this? All Age stake, multiple land marks thrown. However, dog first must do double land blind, and judges direct handler to have doggy pick up long left blind first, line to which is downwind of shorter right hand blind. Within rules?

BonMallari
08-08-2010, 08:41 PM
Congrats to Judy Aycock and Lori Morgan for a 1-2 finish in the Amateur....


Girls Rule :D:D:D

Ted Shih
08-08-2010, 09:01 PM
So,how about this? All Age stake, multiple land marks thrown. However, dog first must do double land blind, and judges direct handler to have doggy pick up long left blind first, line to which is downwind of shorter right hand blind. Within rules?


The Retriever Advisory Committee considers that an improper effort to circumvent the Rules

budsdad
08-08-2010, 09:09 PM
Ted,

Congratulations on Buffy's win.

Paul Rainbolt
08-08-2010, 09:40 PM
Congrats James Roberts, Joe Obrien Derby 2nd puts her at 31 pts. :D

Paul Rainbolt
08-08-2010, 09:41 PM
Congratulations to the Morgans, great weekend!

Paul Rainbolt
08-08-2010, 09:43 PM
Congratulations Ted,and Judy for Buffy's 1st.

bandcollector
08-08-2010, 09:57 PM
1st Trumarc's Gymnast 2nd win, O Judy A & Sylvia M H Judy
2nd ?
3rd ?
4th Trumac's Tubby Two O Ed A H Judy A
sorry that's all I know

Full q results?

Polock
08-08-2010, 10:05 PM
Congrats to Marc & Megan Wells on Denalli's Derby 3rd...........only 1 point from gettin' on da list.....you go gal.......;-)

Congrats Ted for Buffy's win...........always pullin' fer a competitors regards......:D

Dan & Wendy

Tim West
08-08-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm not trying to throw any judge under any bus. I'm just commenting on what was presented on the internet and trying to figure things out. That's why I asked Ted for clarification. If everybody there was fine with it and the judges asked them about it, I suppose all is well. Judges do and should have the ability to interpret rules. Some rules are very clear, some are not.
Congrats Ted and Judy, the Morgans, James and Joe, et all.

Aaron Homburg
08-08-2010, 10:43 PM
Congratz to all the folks that finished! Thanks to the Ft. Collins club for a fun weekend, however hot it was! Thanks to the workers, judges and the competitors for a fun weekend! Left Ft. Collins it was 88 degrees.....by the time I was home it was 108! YUCK!!

Congratz to all regards,

Aaron

oakwood
08-08-2010, 10:52 PM
Full results posted on ee

JeffLusk
08-09-2010, 12:45 AM
Congrats Ted and Judy on the Amateur win with Buffy. I think it was my presence on tuesday.. ;)
Judy if you read this it was a pleasure meeting you.

Tom Watson
08-09-2010, 08:24 AM
Kudos to the Ft Collins Retriever Club for putting on a great trial! From a judging standpoint, we had plenty of great help, expert wingshots and bird throwers with arms like catapults. Everything was efficient and well organized by a bunch of great retriever people. Congratulations to all those who placed or JAMed.

I love those Colorado mornings.

Blackdog
08-09-2010, 02:22 PM
So,how about this? All Age stake, multiple land marks thrown. However, dog first must do double land blind, and judges direct handler to have doggy pick up long left blind first, line to which is downwind of shorter right hand blind. Within rules?

Excellent example Phillip. Seems like the exact scenario of the Open water blind without picking up the second blind, which in this test was a laid out unseen poison bird. Maybe your example changed others opinion of this test?

With the present rule, your illustrations show how it is legal in a given situation and illegal in another. However, I have always felt that an AA dog should obey the handler’s instructions regardless of diversions.

Congratulations to all who finished!
Davis

Old School Labs
08-09-2010, 07:43 PM
Excellent example Phillip. Seems like the exact scenario of the Open water blind without picking up the second blind, which in this test was a laid out unseen poison bird. Maybe your example changed others opinion of this test?

With the present rule, your illustrations show how it is legal in a given situation and illegal in another. However, I have always felt that an AA dog should obey the handler’s instructions regardless of diversions.

Congratulations to all who finished!
Davis


I would like to suggest making your own thread about this issue, as this is the event section, and want to keep an up beat response for all the people that entered, placed or won.

Congrats to of you all and to all the hard work done by every member of our club, the judges and to others that helped such as Larry Morgan not to mention any others I don't know of. :D:D