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dnf777
08-12-2010, 06:55 PM
Where do the RTF indies stand on amending the Constitution to eliminate the birth right for those merely born in the USA of illegal parents?

I may be breaking with the center and left on this one, but I don't see any cogent argument for allowing this abuse to continue in the 21st Century. Not after working in El Paso hospitals and seeing Mexican ambulances bypass perfectly good hospitals in Mexico to come across the bridge to have babies delivered in the US.

If my understanding of history is correct, this provision was enacted during reconstruction to ensure that slaves were considered full citizens, despite their parents possibly being from overseas. Obviously, this no longer applies.

road kill
08-12-2010, 07:00 PM
Where do the RTF indies stand on amending the Constitution to eliminate the birth right for those merely born in the USA of illegal parents?

I may be breaking with the center and left on this one, but I don't see any cogent argument for allowing this abuse to continue in the 21st Century. Not after working in El Paso hospitals and seeing Mexican ambulances bypass perfectly good hospitals in Mexico to come across the bridge to have babies delivered in the US.

If my understanding of history is correct, this provision was enacted during reconstruction to ensure that slaves were considered full citizens, despite their parents possibly being from overseas. Obviously, this no longer applies.
Can I share an opinion, or do I need a link???:rolleyes:


The law is being abused at this time.
The purpose was for something other than what is happening now.

I know, I know, I am a racist for stating that.:cool:




RK

BonMallari
08-12-2010, 07:02 PM
I am against "anchor" babies, saw way too much of it in SoCal...just think its a loophole we need to close ASAP...

Not only do we pick up the tab for the birth mother a majority of the time at your local county hospital, but then they go on welfare and get citizenship and immediately pass all those that are legally going thru the system to get nationalized

YardleyLabs
08-12-2010, 07:21 PM
I agree completely as long as the change is made retroactive to 1776. Most of the citizens of our country are citizens by virtue of the 14th Amendment applied to their parents, grandparents, or other linear ancestors. Historically, most immigrants did not become citizens. Their children became citizens by being born here.

Hew
08-12-2010, 08:05 PM
I agree completely as long as the change is made retroactive to 1776. Good grief. :rolleyes: You forgot to remind everybody that the founders were slave holders, too. Most of the citizens of our country are citizens by virtue of the 14th Amendment applied to their parents, grandparents, or other linear ancestors. And most of those were LEGAL immigrants. Historically, most immigrants did not become citizens. "Historically" as in the last 20 years? In 1950 80% of immigrants became naturalized citizens. From what I have read, the trend of immigrants not becoming citizens is rather recent. The least likely to become citizens are those who come here for economic reasons...i.e. Mexicans and other Latin Americans and the most likely are political refugees. I think what the majority of Americans have a problem with is that ILLEGALS' children automatically become US citizens. I don't think the 14th forsaw how much ILLEGAL immigration would become a problem. Now's the time to fix that ridiculous loophole.Their children became citizens by being born here.
....................

YardleyLabs
08-12-2010, 08:47 PM
And most of those were LEGAL immigrants. Historically, most immigrants did not become citizens. "Historically" as in the last 20 years? In 1950 80% of immigrants became naturalized citizens. From what I have read, the trend of immigrants not becoming citizens is rather recent. The least likely to become citizens are those who come here for economic reasons...i.e. Mexicans and other Latin Americans and the most likely are political refugees. I think what the majority of Americans have a problem with is that ILLEGALS' children automatically become US citizens. I don't think the 14th forsaw how much ILLEGAL immigration would become a problem. Now's the time to fix that ridiculous loophole.
Historically as in the last 200 years. Procedures for naturalization were not well defined and not very accessible for the Italian, Irish, Chinese and other European immigrants before them. There were no roules governing immigration. Sometimes the political machines in the largest cities would walk people through the immigration process to get their votes. However, most did not bother. My father in law's parents were fairly typical of Swedish immigrants from the late 19th/early 20th century. They came to America, moved to Chicago and bought a bar. My father in law was two at the time. His parents never became citizens (or had any visas). My father in law was drafted into the army for WWII and was given his choice of serving as a Swedish citizen or as an American. He ultimately married a first generation Italian woman whose parents also never became citizens and never had visas, but lived and worked here, owning their own business, for more than 50 years. She was born here and therefore was a citizen.

The 14th amendment was never a "loophole". It was at least partially a reaction to the Dred Scott decision which had ruled that only those of European descent were intended to be granted citizenship under the Constitution and the those of African descent were not and could not be citizens at all, whether free or not. Obviously the Constitution allows amendments, but this would definitely be a big one. Fortunately, it only takes 13 states to block an amendment.

dnf777
08-12-2010, 08:49 PM
I agree completely as long as the change is made retroactive to 1776. Most of the citizens of our country are citizens by virtue of the 14th Amendment applied to their parents, grandparents, or other linear ancestors. Historically, most immigrants did not become citizens. Their children became citizens by being born here.

If you're here legally, and have a child, the birthright still applies under proposed modifications. Only those who border jump illegally to have babies would be be excluded. (and their babies, of course)

I can't find a problem with this. The current system is unfair is being abused completely.

What is the current justification for the law?

YardleyLabs
08-12-2010, 08:52 PM
If you're here legally, and have a child, the birthright still applies under proposed modifications. Only those who border jump illegally to have babies would be be excluded. (and their babies, of course)

I can't find a problem with this. The current system is unfair is being abused completely.

What is the current justification for the law?
I would have to search for the statistics. However, it is my understanding that the majority of immigrants here illegally entered legally but overstayed their visas.

dnf777
08-12-2010, 09:00 PM
I would have to search for the statistics. However, it is my understanding that the majority of immigrants here illegally entered legally but overstayed their visas.

Then they're illegal, right?

Edit: I re-read my post, and see how "border-jump" was being addressed. My fault-- that was too narrow a description. I meant to say anyone who is in the country illegally would not be eligible for birthright babies, be they border jumpers, those who outstay their legal status, or any other illegal alien.

ducknwork
08-12-2010, 09:10 PM
Then they're illegal, right?

One would certainly think so...

depittydawg
08-12-2010, 10:05 PM
Where do the RTF indies stand on amending the Constitution to eliminate the birth right for those merely born in the USA of illegal parents?

I may be breaking with the center and left on this one, but I don't see any cogent argument for allowing this abuse to continue in the 21st Century. Not after working in El Paso hospitals and seeing Mexican ambulances bypass perfectly good hospitals in Mexico to come across the bridge to have babies delivered in the US.

If my understanding of history is correct, this provision was enacted during reconstruction to ensure that slaves were considered full citizens, despite their parents possibly being from overseas. Obviously, this no longer applies.

To my knowledge the US is the only Western nation that offers citizenship under these conditions. I see no benefit from this practice to the nation.

dnf777
08-12-2010, 10:07 PM
I'm curious to see if we all agree on this one. Seems to have a consensus across the political spectrum. I'm really interested to hear arguments that favor the continuation of birthright for children of illegals.

luvmylabs23139
08-12-2010, 10:43 PM
I would have to search for the statistics. However, it is my understanding that the majority of immigrants here illegally entered legally but overstayed their visas.

Then they are still here illegally!!! Your visa runs out you need you leave!

The only exeption I would make is for those perm residents whose green cards were issued FOR LIFE and now they have to renew every ten years. Many older people just don't know or understand this. It has never been directly communicated to anyone in this class by the US gov't. They have a greencard with NO experation date yet it is now technically expired. The federal gov't has never directly contacted anyone holding one of these cards and told them that they now are expired.:confused::confused::confused::confused::c onfused:

I have one of the new current ones but I still have both the one from when I was 3 and the one that was required to be changed when I turned 14 with a new pic. My old ones have no experation date and were issued for life. Oh, they actually are green.

dback
08-12-2010, 11:14 PM
I feel just dirty and nasty standing close to Yardley but here goes. (Joking Jeff ;-) :-) )

This is a lose-lose for Conservatives. First.....they'll never get the 14th repealed.....never gonna happen. In the process of trying they would lose EVERY latin vote (and many others) for ages to come. Regardless of what many think...many Hispanics vote along Conservative lines... Certainly they are a minority but none the less many do. Go after that amendment and you lose them all. It would be a VERY ugly battle between Republicans and the Latin community with Dems smiling all the way to the polling booth. I really wish Boehner would just leave it alone, this kind of action only gives Reid the opportunity to say dumb arsed things like his recent statement.

Secondly.....if he would focus on Border Security and drop the 'Anchor Baby' approach, he then has a winning issue on his hands. A majority of Americans support Border Security, even a decent percentage of the Hispanic American community. Conservatives would lose no additional latin votes and the 14th becomes a moot issue. Stop ILLEGAL immigration and you basically stop abuse of the 14th amendment.......my 2 cents.

M&K's Retrievers
08-12-2010, 11:19 PM
Where do the RTF indies stand on amending the Constitution to eliminate the birth right for those merely born in the USA of illegal parents?

I may be breaking with the center and left on this one, but I don't see any cogent argument for allowing this abuse to continue in the 21st Century. Not after working in El Paso hospitals and seeing Mexican ambulances bypass perfectly good hospitals in Mexico to come across the bridge to have babies delivered in the US.

If my understanding of history is correct, this provision was enacted during reconstruction to ensure that slaves were considered full citizens, despite their parents possibly being from overseas. Obviously, this no longer applies.

The 14th Amendment had a good purpose initially as did unions. That purpose is long gone and is doing more harm than good -as are unions.

road kill
08-13-2010, 07:22 AM
I would have to search for the statistics. However, it is my understanding that the majority of immigrants here illegally entered legally but overstayed their visas.

You won't have to search very far to find out how wrong that statement is.

Thousands of "undocumented immigrants" have been pooring across the AZ border daily for quite some time.
It's been in the news.:D



RK

Ken Bora
08-13-2010, 08:35 AM
Some flatlander Jersey folk moved up to Vermont.
They were chatting in the front room of the general store one morning with an old Vermont farmer.
They asked, seeing as their children were born in Vermont, if the old Farmer considered them Vermonters?
And if they were then, by default Vermonters also?
The old farmer thought about this for a bit, as he finished his cider doughnut, and then replied.

If your cat had kittens in the oven, would you call um biscuits?





.

dixidawg
08-13-2010, 08:42 AM
I feel just dirty and nasty standing close to Yardley but here goes. (Joking Jeff ;-) :-) )

This is a lose-lose for Conservatives. First.....they'll never get the 14th repealed.....never gonna happen. In the process of trying they would lose EVERY latin vote (and many others) for ages to come. Regardless of what many think...many Hispanics vote along Conservative lines... Certainly they are a minority but none the less many do. Go after that amendment and you lose them all. It would be a VERY ugly battle between Republicans and the Latin community with Dems smiling all the way to the polling booth. I really wish Boehner would just leave it alone, this kind of action only gives Reid the opportunity to say dumb arsed things like his recent statement.

Secondly.....if he would focus on Border Security and drop the 'Anchor Baby' approach, he then has a winning issue on his hands. A majority of Americans support Border Security, even a decent percentage of the Hispanic American community. Conservatives would lose no additional latin votes and the 14th becomes a moot issue. Stop ILLEGAL immigration and you basically stop abuse of the 14th amendment.......my 2 cents.


You never addressed whether or not you think it is the right thing to do.

Politically it may be suicide, but what is the right thing to do?

badbullgator
08-13-2010, 08:59 AM
Is every inch of your knowledge of this topic out of snopes? I lived in an area with a heavy concentration of illegal immigrants, and I can tell you without a doubt that you are wrong there.
And by the way, I'm sympathetic to the spanish immigrants in this country, just a little tired of you knowing it all.
Walt

Are there a lot of immigrants from Spain here? :rolleyes:

I am against anchor babies. Even if the parents are here legally why should that give the children citizenship automatically. Not that i am against them being allowed to get it, but like Ken pointed out being born in an oven doesn't make em biscuts.....
I am all infavor of LEGAL immigration, but anchor babies are just plain stupid (well maybe not the babies themselves, but you know what I mean)

Buzz
08-13-2010, 09:34 AM
Has someone besides me been listening to John Gibson in the afternoon? :D

Listening to this whole debate, I keep asking myself how much we are willing to spend on a bureaucracy to keep track of all this. I can see the war on illegals costing us trillions. And if we were to truly "defend our borders" how much money could we pee down that hole?

This comes from someone who has absolutely no love for illegal immigrants.



I feel just dirty and nasty standing close to Yardley but here goes. (Joking Jeff ;-) :-) )

This is a lose-lose for Conservatives. First.....they'll never get the 14th repealed.....never gonna happen. In the process of trying they would lose EVERY latin vote (and many others) for ages to come. Regardless of what many think...many Hispanics vote along Conservative lines... Certainly they are a minority but none the less many do. Go after that amendment and you lose them all. It would be a VERY ugly battle between Republicans and the Latin community with Dems smiling all the way to the polling booth. I really wish Boehner would just leave it alone, this kind of action only gives Reid the opportunity to say dumb arsed things like his recent statement.

Secondly.....if he would focus on Border Security and drop the 'Anchor Baby' approach, he then has a winning issue on his hands. A majority of Americans support Border Security, even a decent percentage of the Hispanic American community. Conservatives would lose no additional latin votes and the 14th becomes a moot issue. Stop ILLEGAL immigration and you basically stop abuse of the 14th amendment.......my 2 cents.

badbullgator
08-13-2010, 09:39 AM
Has someone besides me been listening to John Gibson in the afternoon? :D

Listening to this whole debate, I keep asking myself how much we are willing to spend on a bureaucracy to keep track of all this. I can see the war on illegals costing us trillions. And if we were to truly "defend our borders" how much money could we pee down that hole?

This comes from someone who has absolutely no love for illegal immigrants.


So then you must feel the same way about the "war" on drugs????

Buzz
08-13-2010, 09:52 AM
So then you must feel the same way about the "war" on drugs????

I would say that "protecting our borders" is part of that. I'm not there, so I could be wrong, but I get the impression that the crime that they are dealing with around Tucson and Phoenix is more a byproduct of drug running than of illegals coming for work.

Gerry Clinchy
08-13-2010, 10:25 AM
Listening to this whole debate, I keep asking myself how much we are willing to spend on a bureaucracy to keep track of all this. I can see the war on illegals costing us trillions. And if we were to truly "defend our borders" how much money could we pee down that hole?

So, would you then abandon all immigration regulations and border security operations?

How would the cost of maintaining the immigration regulations compare to the cost of providing social services to any and all un-regulated immigrants?

For clarification of the use of the term "Spanish". My area has many residents who have relocated from Puerto Rico (not immigrants as they already have US citizenship) ... they refer to themselves as "Spanish". It would appear that the use of the word "Spanish" is a way of encompassing a larger ethnic group that happens to emanate from Spanish-speaking origins.

badbullgator
08-13-2010, 10:47 AM
So, would you then abandon all immigration regulations and border security operations?

How would the cost of maintaining the immigration regulations compare to the cost of providing social services to any and all un-regulated immigrants?

For clarification of the use of the term "Spanish". My area has many residents who have relocated from Puerto Rico (not immigrants as they already have US citizenship) ... they refer to themselves as "Spanish". It would appear that the use of the word "Spanish" is a way of encompassing a larger ethnic group that happens to emanate from Spanish-speaking origins.


Wow you have some strange PR's up there, never heard one call themselves Spanish. down here most like Latinos or hispanic. Maybe they are trying to distance themselves form the illegals by calling themselves Spanish

Marvin S
08-13-2010, 12:29 PM
This comes from someone who has absolutely no love for illegal immigrants.

I disagree with what dback posts, hopefully I can articulate correctly!



This is a lose-lose for Conservatives. First.....they'll never get the 14th repealed.....never gonna happen. In the process of trying they would lose EVERY latin vote (and many others) for ages to come. Regardless of what many think...many Hispanics vote along Conservative lines... Certainly they are a minority but none the less many do. Go after that amendment and you lose them all. It would be a VERY ugly battle between Republicans and the Latin community with Dems smiling all the way to the polling booth. I really wish Boehner would just leave it alone, this kind of action only gives Reid the opportunity to say dumb arsed things like his recent statement.

Secondly.....if he would focus on Border Security and drop the 'Anchor Baby' approach, he then has a winning issue on his hands. A majority of Americans support Border Security, even a decent percentage of the Hispanic American community. Conservatives would lose no additional latin votes and the 14th becomes a moot issue. Stop ILLEGAL immigration and you basically stop abuse of the 14th amendment.......my 2 cents.

My :2c: - We have not had an R in the POTUS who was ever more than lukewarm for enforcement of any kind.

Conservatives need to articulate this for what it is - Illegal & a serious burden to the country as a whole. The money being spent providing benny's to the illegals could be better spent elsewhere. It is also robbing from the quality of life of those who came here legally (+ future generations) & have been good citizens.

While I support Border Security, it's been going on for a long time & what is the result? It's also only one individual away from another period of lax enforcement. Like Drugs & Crime, there is little incentive to clean up the mess law enforcement has allowed it to become.

badbullgator
08-13-2010, 12:44 PM
I disagree with what dback posts, hopefully I can articulate correctly!




My :2c: - We have not had an R in the POTUS who was ever more than lukewarm for enforcement of any kind.

Conservatives need to articulate this for what it is - Illegal & a serious burden to the country as a whole. The money being spent providing benny's to the illegals could be better spent elsewhere. It is also robbing from the quality of life of those who came here legally (+ future generations) & have been good citizens.

While I support Border Security, it's been going on for a long time & what is the result? It's also only one individual away from another period of lax enforcement. Like Drugs & Crime, there is little incentive to clean up the mess law enforcement has allowed it to become.

Marvin
Don't you think there is more incentive for LE NOT to do anything about it. illegals and drugs for that matter. Their business is enforcement of laws, less laws needing to be enforced equals less that benifits them.
Using drugs as an example, think of all the billions of dollars that evolve around enforcement, detention, rehabilitation, monitoring, the insurance industry, drug testing industry…an entire industry dries up if drugs were legal. Same is true with illegal immigration

Marvin S
08-13-2010, 05:21 PM
Marvin
Don't you think there is more incentive for LE NOT to do anything about it. illegals and drugs for that matter. Their business is enforcement of laws, less laws needing to be enforced equals less that benifits them.
Using drugs as an example, think of all the billions of dollars that evolve around enforcement, detention, rehabilitation, monitoring, the insurance industry, drug testing industry…an entire industry dries up if drugs were legal. Same is true with illegal immigration

My comment was directed at the concept of working yourself out of a job. Can you imagine most of the LE types you know actually having a job where results mattered? I can't :rolleyes:.

I advocate making neither of them legal - but if we were talking prostitution, then that's a different story :).

BrianW
08-13-2010, 06:12 PM
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

I'm curious as to this proviso as specified in the amendment.
When does a unlawful minor become a subject of the authority of a sovereign power to govern or legislate them?

Julie R.
08-13-2010, 06:12 PM
The 14th amendment was never a "loophole". It was at least partially a reaction to the Dred Scott decision which had ruled that only those of European descent were intended to be granted citizenship under the Constitution and the those of African descent were not and could not be citizens at all, whether free or not. Obviously the Constitution allows amendments, but this would definitely be a big one. Fortunately, it only takes 13 states to block an amendment.

You fail to take into consideration that at the time this country had what seemed like unlimited resources and plenty of room for anyone that wanted to come here and was willing to work for a better life and become a productive member of society. There are billions more humans living on the planet than when the 14th Amendment was enacted. And, not even taking into consideration the productive member of society part, here's a news flash: The U.S. of A doesn't have unlimited resources, natural or government, to support this exponential flood of illegal immigration, no matter how they get here, whether they run, walk, tunnel, swim, hitch hike, or stowaway--in utero or otherwise.

YardleyLabs
08-13-2010, 06:27 PM
You fail to take into consideration that at the time this country had what seemed like unlimited resources and plenty of room for anyone that wanted to come here and was willing to work for a better life and become a productive member of society. There are billions more humans living on the planet than when the 14th Amendment was enacted. And, not even taking into consideration the productive member of society part, here's a news flash: The U.S. of A doesn't have unlimited resources, natural or government, to support this exponential flood of illegal immigration, no matter how they get here, whether they run, walk, tunnel, swim, hitch hike, or stowaway--in utero or otherwise.
And yet, when the Chinese came, and when the Irish came, and when the Italians came, and so forth, massive anti-immigration movements were launched to prevent the destruction of our language and culture. Newspapers and politicians screamed the outrage of the people. The Irish wave of immigrants was the largest, and the Irish emerged to become 20% of the white population in America.

As horrible and destructive as each of these waves was believed to be, our country emerged stronger in the end. I suspect this will remain our greatest source of strength in the future.

Hew
08-13-2010, 06:43 PM
And yet, when the Chinese came, and when the Irish came, and when the Italians came, and so forth, massive anti-immigration movements were launched to prevent the destruction of our language and culture. Newspapers and politicians screamed the outrage of the people.
Hmmm....you left out one significant player behind much of the nativism and racism.....labor unions.

road kill
08-13-2010, 06:43 PM
And yet, when the Chinese came, and when the Irish came, and when the Italians came, and so forth, massive anti-immigration movements were launched to prevent the destruction of our language and culture. Newspapers and politicians screamed the outrage of the people. The Irish wave of immigrants was the largest, and the Irish emerged to become 20% of the white population in America.

As horrible and destructive as each of these waves was believed to be, our country emerged stronger in the end. I suspect this will remain our greatest source of strength in the future.

Again.....those times you describe are different than now.
This is 2010.
And most of them came legally thru Ellis Island.
We are not talking about that.

We are talking about the onslaught of illegal immigration on a daily basis across our southern borders.

Maybe you could get a 5th grader to help you understand this.

Frankly, I am certain you understand, but just have to argue.




RK

road kill
08-13-2010, 06:44 PM
You fail to take into consideration that at the time this country had what seemed like unlimited resources and plenty of room for anyone that wanted to come here and was willing to work for a better life and become a productive member of society. There are billions more humans living on the planet than when the 14th Amendment was enacted. And, not even taking into consideration the productive member of society part, here's a news flash: The U.S. of A doesn't have unlimited resources, natural or government, to support this exponential flood of illegal immigration, no matter how they get here, whether they run, walk, tunnel, swim, hitch hike, or stowaway--in utero or otherwise.


Great post, just so you know, it didn't go over everybody's head!:rolleyes:



RK

dback
08-13-2010, 07:12 PM
You never addressed whether or not you think it is the right thing to do.

Politically it may be suicide, but what is the right thing to do?

dixi....I'll be honest with you that I'm not a 14th amendment expert.....my feelings are that it has run it's course and is now abused. That said, as a conservative, I would rather fight this battle from a position of strength and I don't think attacking the 14th is that position. Even if you win the battle....you'll lose the war.


Has someone besides me been listening to John Gibson in the afternoon? :D

Hate to sound dumber than I am but I've never even heard of, let alone listened to Mr Gibson. Even worse....today I heard McCain say essentially the same thing (I'm not a fan of my dear Senator). I'm just forming this opinion from experience with family, extended family, MANY Hispanic friends and employees....it is simply a no-win situation.....right or wrong, especially right now.


I disagree with what dback posts, hopefully I can articulate correctly!




My :2c: - We have not had an R in the POTUS who was ever more than lukewarm for enforcement of any kind.

Conservatives need to articulate this for what it is - Illegal & a serious burden to the country as a whole. The money being spent providing benny's to the illegals could be better spent elsewhere. It is also robbing from the quality of life of those who came here legally (+ future generations) & have been good citizens.

While I support Border Security, it's been going on for a long time & what is the result? It's also only one individual away from another period of lax enforcement. Like Drugs & Crime, there is little incentive to clean up the mess law enforcement has allowed it to become.

Marv....I agree with everything you say, however, look at it from a slightly different angle. If Arizona's law has done nothing, it has brought illegal immigration to the forefront. It has made it exceedingly clear that Border Security and immigration reform are a winning combo for any POTUS candidate if done correctly. Done correctly it doesn't even necessarily mean the alienation of the entire Latin community. I think Buzz said something about peeing money down the security hole.....he would be correct if it was security alone, but, security in conjunction with employer sanctions of some sort, restrictions on benefits, land ownership possibly and numerous other possible angles would slow illegal immigration to a trickle. My wife just returned from Mexico City and Acapulco visiting her mother and she said she couldn't answer questions fast enough about Arizona's new law. Jorge Ramos and Univision have painted Arizona as the KKK heathen of the US. The general population had not, however, heard a single word about death threats to Sheriff Joe, Governor Brewer, the Nogales PD, the Pinal County deputy shot, the rancher murdered or their own people murdered by 'Coyotes' or Cartel members, the rapes, death in the desert, kidnappings and on and on........but they sure knew about Arizona's law with a Republican Governor. Imagine the 'hay day' Ramos would have with a Republican attempt to repeal the 14th. Most knew little or nothing about Judge Bolton overruling most of it and simply stated that they would merely cross into California or Texas. (I guess the law IS working)

Marv...I don't think LEO have allowed it to become a mess...it is our leadership and "We the People" need to make it plain that "We" want it cleaned up. You and I agree completely about the 'war'.....I just don't think this is the prudent 'battle'.

YardleyLabs
08-13-2010, 07:17 PM
Again.....those times you describe are different than now.
This is 2010.
And most of them came legally thru Ellis Island.
We are not talking about that.

We are talking about the onslaught of illegal immigration on a daily basis across our southern borders.

Maybe you could get a 5th grader to help you understand this.

Frankly, I am certain you understand, but just have to argue.




RK
Actually, most of the waves of immigration that I described pre-dated Ellis Island. I tend to believe that each time we have cracked down on immigration, we have ended up poorer as a nation. Maybe one of the keys to flourishing in a globalized economy is importing new talent from overseas. Those who immigrate ted to be the brightest and the most energetic that their countries of origin have to offer except in those cases, like Cuba, where we allow politics to overrule good sense.


Hmmm....you left out one significant player behind much of the nativism and racism.....labor unions.
The job of unions is to protect the tenure of their current members. They oppose each new wave until it reaches a critical mass and begins to build its own power base within the union. That was key for the Irish and later for the Italians, and then for blacks. Now Hispanics are gaining power within the unions and the unions are listening. The same happens in politics. As more and more legal immigrants from a region are naturalized and begin to register to vote, they become a political bloc. Fairly quickly, the politicians that oppose further immigration lose, and are replaced by those who are more supportive. That will certainly happen over the next decade with Hispanic voters. What is interesting is that culturally Hispanic immigrants tend to be much more family centric and socially conservative than non-Hispanics. They represent a natural Republican constituency, but are being forced into supporting Democrats. Bush recognized this and favored immigration reform. McCain recognized it and favored reform as well until his efforts to win support from the "base" pushed him into reversing position. As a social libertarian, I do not necessarily welcome the shift toward more socially conservative policies among Democrats to accommodate this new population. It could represent as fundamental a change for Democrats as the alliance with the religious right represented for Republicans. Maybe that will be the trend that ultimately turns me into a Republican and turns some of the Republicans here into Democrats.:rolleyes:

Franco
08-13-2010, 08:00 PM
It is time for a Moratorium on Immigration. Also, that we take a hard look at those in the USA wanting citizenship and deporting the potential criminals.

The more we grow our population, the lower our standard of living! We already have too many here that are nothing more than a burden and most are recent migrants, illegal and legal.

Time for the USA to take care of herself first!

M&K's Retrievers
08-13-2010, 08:25 PM
It is time for a Moratorium on Immigration. Also, that we take a hard look at those in the USA wanting citizenship and deporting the potential criminals.

The more we grow our population, the lower our standard of living! We already have too many here that are nothing more than a burden and most are recent migrants, illegal and legal.

Time for the USA to take care of herself first!

Your gonna get sent to the liberal woodshed for this.

road kill
08-13-2010, 08:30 PM
Actually, most of the waves of immigration that I described pre-dated Ellis Island. I tend to believe that each time we have cracked down on immigration, we have ended up poorer as a nation. Maybe one of the keys to flourishing in a globalized economy is importing new talent from overseas. Those who immigrate ted to be the brightest and the most energetic that their countries of origin have to offer except in those cases, like Cuba, where we allow politics to overrule good sense.




UHHHHHH....excuse me, what does that have to do with illegal aliens stampeeding across our southern borders and having "anchor babies?"

Couple other minor items;

#1--Are these Mexico's brightest and finest?

#2--I don't give a CRAP about your ideological "Global Econmy" in your new worls order, I care about the USA's economy and being #1!!

#3--Just in case you don't know, Mexico is not "overseas."

#4--If we continue to let these illegals enter unabated, we will most definitely become poorer!!


RK

Gerry Clinchy
08-13-2010, 09:52 PM
Wow you have some strange PR's up there, never heard one call themselves Spanish. down here most like Latinos or hispanic. Maybe they are trying to distance themselves form the illegals by calling themselves Spanish

Corey, you may be correct in that.

Our Spanish population has come here for an environment they consider better than NYC. Many have come here from NYC. One of my clients who is Spanish is a blue collar worker who worked his way up through a large corporation, and now travels to their major facilities in the US and overseas to supervise maintenance of some pretty sophisticated industrial equipment. He is also a highly skilled carpenter. His wife, also from PR, is a social worker. Her father is an attorney in PR. Her sister is a pediatrician in FL. Their daughter is now a schoolteacher, and their son has just begun college at Temple University. They are not different from other hard-working middle class Americans. They and their children are bi-lingual.

We do have organizations in the area that use the words "Latino" and "Hispanic" in their names rather than the word "Spanish". I wouldn't be surprised, however, if a transition occurs toward Spanish over time.

Franco
08-13-2010, 10:00 PM
Corey, you may be correct in that.

Our Spanish population has come here for an environment they consider better than NYC. Many have come here from NYC. One of my clients who is Spanish is a blue collar worker who worked his way up through a large corporation, and now travels to their major facilities in the US and overseas to supervise maintenance of some pretty sophisticated industrial equipment. He is also a highly skilled carpenter. His wife, also from PR, is a social worker. Her father is an attorney in PR. Her sister is a pediatrician in FL. Their daughter is now a schoolteacher, and their son has just begun college at Temple University. They are not different from other hard-working middle class Americans. They and their children are bi-lingual.

We do have organizations in the area that use the words "Latino" and "Hispanic" in their names rather than the word "Spanish". I wouldn't be surprised, however, if a transition occurs toward Spanish over time.

To call the peoples of Latin America, Mexico or Puerto Rico Spanish would be like calling Americans English.

Though Spain may have given them a language and a religion, most similarities end there. The one country in the Americas that most resembles Spain is Argentina. For some reason, they did not experience the mass interbreeding of European Spaniards to indigenous peoples. Carribean Hispanics are a mixture of indigenous people, slaves, French and Spanish. Mexicans are a mixture of Myans and Aztecs and Continental Spainish. There was no such thing as a Mexican before Cortez arrived. Brazil, Peru, Columbia, Central America all have various ethnic composition. So, to lable them as Spanish is not accurate or correct.

One of the best history lessons I've ever had was in talking for hours with my host while shooting a couple hundred doves one afternoon in the Argentine countryside.

dnf777
08-13-2010, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=YardleyLabs;660178]Actually, most of the waves of immigration that I described pre-dated Ellis Island. I tend to believe that each time we have cracked down on immigration, we have ended up poorer as a nation. Maybe one of the keys to flourishing in a globalized economy is importing new talent from overseas. Those who immigrate ted to be the brightest and the most energetic that their countries of origin have to offer except in those cases, like Cuba, where we allow politics to overrule good sense.


QUOTE]

UHHHHHH....excuse me, what does that have to do with illegal aliens stampeeding across our southern borders and having "anchor babies?"

Couple other minor items;

#1--Are these Mexico's brightest and finest?

#2--I don't give a CRAP about your ideological "Global Econmy" in your new worls order, I care about the USA's economy and being #1!!

#3--Just in case you don't know, Mexico is not "overseas."

#4--If we continue to let these illegals enter unabated, we will most definitely become poorer!!


RK


While we're learning basic geography, here's one I found interesting. I won't mention the source. I bet you can figger it out!

"Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better." (24 Sep 2001)

depittydawg
08-13-2010, 11:17 PM
It is time for a Moratorium on Immigration. Also, that we take a hard look at those in the USA wanting citizenship and deporting the potential criminals.

The more we grow our population, the lower our standard of living! We already have too many here that are nothing more than a burden and most are recent migrants, illegal and legal.

Time for the USA to take care of herself first!

I'd agree we don't need more people. But as to which ones are a burden I can't agree. I work in an organization that employs a lot of people. Starting wages are low; as entry level skill is low. Without any doubt, over many years of experience, I have witnessed that the most useless people on the job, unfortunately are our own homegrown deadbeats. Almost all the immigrants I've worked with over the years, and there have been hundreds, have been extremely hard working, dependable people who are so thankful to have an opportunity here they put our own to shame.
And no, that doesn't mean I haven't experienced MANY good American workers. I have. But the ones who learn use and abuse the systems, for the large majority, are home grown.

Franco
08-14-2010, 12:19 AM
I'd agree we don't need more people. But as to which ones are a burden I can't agree. I work in an organization that employs a lot of people. Starting wages are low; as entry level skill is low. Without any doubt, over many years of experience, I have witnessed that the most useless people on the job, unfortunately are our own homegrown deadbeats. Almost all the immigrants I've worked with over the years, and there have been hundreds, have been extremely hard working, dependable people who are so thankful to have an opportunity here they put our own to shame.
And no, that doesn't mean I haven't experienced MANY good American workers. I have. But the ones who learn use and abuse the systems, for the large majority, are home grown.

I'll agree with the fact that we have enough of our own problems. That's where we need to be directing energy, not growing the problem. I'm a big proponent of American citizens first and foremost.

Buzz
08-14-2010, 12:28 AM
While we're learning basic geography, here's one I found interesting. I won't mention the source. I bet you can figger it out!

"Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better." (24 Sep 2001)



Has to be 43.

Buzz
08-14-2010, 12:38 AM
r.



Hate to sound dumber than I am but I've never even heard of, let alone listened to Mr Gibson. Even worse....today I heard McCain say essentially the same thing (I'm not a fan of my dear Senator). I'm just forming this opinion from experience with family, extended family, MANY Hispanic friends and employees....it is simply a no-win situation.....right or wrong, especially right now.





Gibson does a talk show on FOX radio. I listen to him pretty much every day over my lunch. He's been hammering hard on Republicans committing suicide with this wanting to amend the constitution. As you can imagine, many of his callers are pushing back pretty hard. They seem to think he's gone off the deep end.

Hew
08-14-2010, 07:42 AM
As a social libertarian, I do not necessarily welcome the shift toward more socially conservative policies among Democrats to accommodate this new population. It could represent as fundamental a change for Democrats as the alliance with the religious right represented for Republicans.
I wouldn't sweat that too much. You guys will find a way to keep Hispanics on the plantation just like you have with blacks. Give them lots of free sh!t paid for with other peoples' money has been a winning formula for you guys for 40+ years.

YardleyLabs
08-14-2010, 07:50 AM
I wouldn't sweat that too much. You guys will find a way to keep Hispanics on the plantation just like you have with blacks. Give them lots of free sh!t paid for with other peoples' money has been a winning formula for you guys for 40+ years.
Sort of like pulling out the guns, the flags, and the crosses and claiming that our country and way of life are under assault -- fear, the true opium of the masses.

road kill
08-14-2010, 08:15 AM
[QUOTE=road kill;660206]


While we're learning basic geography, here's one I found interesting. I won't mention the source. I bet you can figger it out!

"Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better." (24 Sep 2001)


Very cute, "fact based and well thought out."

One small problem, totally irrelevant to the topic, nothing new.......
BTW, aren't the "57 states" between Canada and Mexico??:D

Just askin'..........



RK

Hew
08-14-2010, 01:14 PM
Sort of like pulling out the guns, the flags, and the crosses and claiming that our country and way of life are under assault -- fear, the true opium of the masses.
True, you lefties do hate you some God, Guns and Guts. And the flag (unless it is burin').

depittydawg
08-14-2010, 01:24 PM
True, you lefties do hate you some God, Guns and Guts. And the flag (unless it is burin').

American Lefites:
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Abraham Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt
John Kennedy

any more comments on lefties, pick one of the above names to reference.

road kill
08-14-2010, 02:04 PM
American Lefites:
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Abraham Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt
John Kennedy

any more comments on lefties, pick one of the above names to reference.

Mr. Dawg, here is where you and I may find common ground.
There have been some fantastic Democrats in the history of the USA.

You left out Truman, "Scoop" Jackson, William Proxmire and HHH just to name a few more.

Obama is an absolute disgrace to their names, acheivements and memories!!



RK

Hew
08-15-2010, 08:04 AM
American Lefites:
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Abraham Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt
John Kennedy

any more comments on lefties, pick one of the above names to reference.

Lefties, eh? LOL. Oh, I get it, they were all left handed.